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At 4/17/03 09:19 PM, MadMax501 wrote:

At 4/16/03 11:10 PM, implodinggoat wrote: 1.Teddy Roosevelt
2.Lincoln
3.Jefferson
4.FDR (despite my disagrements with some of his policies)
5.Nixon

how could u say nixon is one of the best presidents??! He was a racist, a liar and a cheat! He tried to steal money from the democrats, along with other unscrupulous activity. That sickens me.

You don't read the long posts do you? I defended why I put him on there. Sure part of him being on the list was just for controversies sake but he was far from the antichrist that he has been painted out to be.

If you really want to critisize him perhaps you should look at some historical examples of other presidents who have faired far better in history's spotlight.

You said he was a rascist this is true, although he wasn't exceptionally so and he didn't let it affect his policies. In addition I would say a majority of U.S. presidents even after Lincoln were somewhat rascist, so this point is negligable.

You called him a liar which was true. But lets put some perspective on that shall we? For starters all politicians lie but most have gotten away with it. Nixon suceeded in being destroyed by his lies where as a less honorable man such as Bill Clinton managed to better conceal his lies and somehow manage to be supported after he perjured himself in front of the entire nation and a court of law.

Finally you called him a cheat which was not true in anyway. Nixon never cheated to get to his position, he played the political tides for years to get to his position.....In fact when Nixon lost to Kennedy in the closest election in history proof has shown that tens of thousands of already deceased democrats managed to vote for him. The Kennedy family particularly Kennedy's father had extensive ties with the mob and managed to cheat John into office (note I am uncertain whether John knew of his father's deeds at the time).

Nixon knew of this but decided not to complain feeling that he would be viewed as a man who couldn't accept defeat like Al Gore bitching about hanging chads.

You should learn some history before you start making such statements or you will find your feeble arguements quickly dispatched as you have just witnessed.

FDR
Teddy Rosevelt
Lincoln
Nixon
Millard Fillmore

Nixon would not have been a particulary bad president if he had just disavowed Watergate when it came up. He really had nothing to do with the planning or execution of it, he just made the mistake of trying to cover it up after the fact.

I enjoy Wilson. He kept his head, and stuck to his morals regardless of the odds. You have to respect him for that.

How about we list the worst Presidents now?

In no order:

Clinton
Carter
Fillmore
LBJ
Truman

At 4/18/03 03:49 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: How about we list the worst Presidents now?

In no order:

Clinton
Carter
Fillmore
LBJ
Truman

care to explain why they were the worst prez???

my list
-james buchanan (did nothing at all)
-andrew johnson (made prez weak until TR took over)
-ulysses s grant (spent more time drinking whiskey and smoking cigars)
-herbert hoover (prez when depression came and didnt do much to help)
-jfk (too many fucking nukes)
-lbj (great society bad idea, vietnam bad idea)
-gerald ford (pardoned nixon)
-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)
-clinton (pardoned everyone, and the lieing under oath thing)
-W bush (economy still sucks, i dislike the amount of war, regardless of it being good for the people there or not...)

At 4/18/03 04:21 PM, karasz wrote: care to explain why they were the worst prez???

Certainly:

Clinton - Lied under oath, started NUMEROUS unprovoked and unnecessary[sp] wars, spoke with a VERY stupid sounding accent (thus making the country look bad) gave the CIA a no-go when Bin Laden was pinned down in Pakistan in 1998.
Carter - Basically said he didn't about american lives.
Fillmore - Hated just about everyone, only president who really did nothing for the country.
LBJ - Viet Nam involvement disgrace
Truman - Korea weakness disgrace

At 4/18/03 04:46 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: Carter - Basically said he didn't about american lives.

*didn't care

lincoln was funny

So we're talking worst Presidents now? Okay then...

1. LBJ (bet you can't guess why!)
2. William Henry Harrison (ran under no platform whatsoever, was going to be a puppet for the Whig party leadership, turned election into a circus, caught pneumonia while making an overly long inauguration speech, and proceeded to die in 30 days)
3. Grant (great general, but his cabinet was one of the most corrupt ever, and he did nothing about it)
4. Oh hell, I'll go ahead and throw Clinton in. His domestic policy admittedly wasn't TOO bad (though a Republican congress helped keep him in line there), but I can't say much about a guy who only fought terrorism whenever it would help distract from his personal scandals, and even then he put in minimal effort (one or two cruise missiles, and then go home).

You're forgetting the one main problem with Clitnon, he started TWO meaningless wars!

Tell me how Kosova and Bosnia were even relevant to the United States? You might say it was a humanitarian crisis, well, in that case, it's the UN's job, and the UN said "no."

At 4/18/03 05:57 PM, TheEvilOne wrote: 4. Oh hell, I'll go ahead and throw Clinton in. His domestic policy admittedly wasn't TOO bad (though a Republican congress helped keep him in line there),

regardless of the congress the prez sets the debate on the hill...

but I can't say much about a guy who only fought terrorism whenever it would help distract from his personal scandals, and even then he put in minimal effort (one or two cruise missiles, and then go home).

ok, got a question for both u and NemesisZ... its 1998 and Clinton says the guy responsible for the Kenya/Tanzania (pretty sure that was where the second one was) embassy bombings were caused by this Osama bin Laden guy... Do you support the Democrat gunning for war against a guy the vast majority DOESNT know about?

cuz honestly no president is going to start a war for no reason before 9-11... without that, the US would not be in Iraq, and wouldnt be yellin bout syria...

I think Lyndon Johnson, for his involvement in sending so many to Vietnam to die in the rivers, should be permanently banned from being on any Top-5 Best lists. Except maybe best assholes.

-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)

how was aids reagans fault?

FDR,Dubya,Nixon,and Clinton

At 4/18/03 08:58 PM, willywonkaboy wrote: FDR,Dubya,Nixon,and Clinton

hey man, dubya hasnt even finished his term yet!!! what if he really is right. I admit he is a retard, but we wont know how bad his administration was until ten years later. its debatable whether the same rule applies to clinton

At 4/18/03 02:22 PM, implodinggoat wrote:

At 4/17/03 09:19 PM, MadMax501 wrote:

At 4/16/03 11:10 PM, implodinggoat wrote: 1.Teddy Roosevelt
2.Lincoln
3.Jefferson
4.FDR (despite my disagrements with some of his policies)
5.Nixon

how could u say nixon is one of the best presidents??! He was a racist, a liar and a cheat! He tried to steal money from the democrats, along with other unscrupulous activity. That sickens me.

You don't read the long posts do you? I defended why I put him on there. Sure part of him being on the list was just for controversies sake but he was far from the antichrist that he has been painted out to be.

If you really want to critisize him perhaps you should look at some historical examples of other presidents who have faired far better in history's spotlight.

You said he was a rascist this is true, although he wasn't exceptionally so and he didn't let it affect his policies. In addition I would say a majority of U.S. presidents even after Lincoln were somewhat rascist, so this point is negligable.

You called him a liar which was true. But lets put some perspective on that shall we? For starters all politicians lie but most have gotten away with it. Nixon suceeded in being destroyed by his lies where as a less honorable man such as Bill Clinton managed to better conceal his lies and somehow manage to be supported after he perjured himself in front of the entire nation and a court of law.

Finally you called him a cheat which was not true in anyway. Nixon never cheated to get to his position, he played the political tides for years to get to his position.....In fact when Nixon lost to Kennedy in the closest election in history proof has shown that tens of thousands of already deceased democrats managed to vote for him. The Kennedy family particularly Kennedy's father had extensive ties with the mob and managed to cheat John into office (note I am uncertain whether John knew of his father's deeds at the time).

Nixon knew of this but decided not to complain feeling that he would be viewed as a man who couldn't accept defeat like Al Gore bitching about hanging chads.

You should learn some history before you start making such statements or you will find your feeble arguements quickly dispatched as you have just witnessed.

excuse me, but opening up trade with a country like china encourages slave labor. the people in china are treated just as bad as the people in iraq were treated, it's called a DICTATORSHIP! I'll agree, nixons foreign relations were some of the best in U.S. history, but his unlawful behavior and embaressing outweighs the good he did. I know other presidents have acted in a similar fashion, but then again the other presidents you listed were not known for that.

At 4/18/03 10:51 PM, MadMax501 wrote:

excuse me, but opening up trade with a country like china encourages slave labor. the people in china are treated just as bad as the people in iraq were treated, it's called a DICTATORSHIP! I'll agree, nixons foreign relations were some of the best in U.S. history, but his unlawful behavior and embaressing outweighs the good he did. I know other presidents have acted in a similar fashion, but then again the other presidents you listed were not known for that.

Opening up China to free trade is the only means by which we can hope to bring democracy to China without war. Through trade more and more chinese citizens are being exposed to the concept of democracy. In the late 80s there was a march for democracy in Tianamen square by Chinese university students. The reaction of the Chinese government was to crush the protest (as pictured below) but the idea has still been planted in the mind of the Chinese citizens. If it weren't for Nixon ending China's isolationism there would be no hope for a free China aside from WWIII. As it is a free China may not rise for many, many years but without Nixon it would never occur.

Also you might want to read Commander's post above about Nixon's involvement in the watergate break ins. True he did lie under oath and for that I wouldn't place him amongst the top five of all time if it weren't for the fact that I wanted a chance to debate how much he has been screwed over by history. Still one must give Nixon some credit for unlike Clinton he was honorable enough to step down over his misdeeds.

At 4/18/03 08:18 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)

how was aids reagans fault?

his idleness while it was becoming an epidemic didnt help...

granted it wouldnt have stopped it, but would have given the medical community at least 6 years of development...

At 4/18/03 11:13 PM, karasz wrote:

At 4/18/03 08:18 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)

how was aids reagans fault?

his idleness while it was becoming an epidemic didnt help...

granted it wouldnt have stopped it, but would have given the medical community at least 6 years of development...

It didn't seem like a major threat at the time. Its only now that its declining because people are using protection.

As for curing aids those 6 years wouldn't have done a great deal of good. Aids is a virus and the medical community has never cured a virus. If a cure for a virus is going to emerge it will be through a sudden flash of brilliance.

At 4/18/03 11:13 PM, karasz wrote:

At 4/18/03 08:18 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)

how was aids reagans fault?

his idleness while it was becoming an epidemic didnt help...

granted it wouldnt have stopped it, but would have given the medical community at least 6 years of development...

yeah, because the international medical community cant do any research on a new disease without a green light from the us pres? what kind of hippie crack are you smoking, cause I want some

Hippies don't smoke crack.

At 4/19/03 12:49 AM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 4/18/03 11:13 PM, karasz wrote:

At 4/18/03 08:18 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

-ronald reagan (iran-contra, aids epidemic)

how was aids reagans fault?

his idleness while it was becoming an epidemic didnt help...

granted it wouldnt have stopped it, but would have given the medical community at least 6 years of development...

yeah, because the international medical community cant do any research on a new disease without a green light from the us pres? what kind of hippie crack are you smoking, cause I want some

the CDC could have been doing some research if they had more funding instead of giving money to the fucking military to make sure the downfalling communist werent going to take the US...

Abraham Lincoln

At 4/19/03 01:25 AM, karasz wrote:
the CDC could have been doing some research if they had more funding instead of giving money to the fucking military to make sure the downfalling communist werent going to take the US...

you realize that it was policies like that one that were truly responsible for the end of communism.

The Soviet Union couldn't keep up with the monsterous industrial power of the United States and their attempts to keep up with us in the space race, the missle race, the military race, and the amount they spen on steroids for their athletes played a mahor part in bringing an end to communism.

That and Michael Gorbachev.

At 4/19/03 12:52 AM, implodinggoat wrote: Hippies don't smoke crack.

only marjauna...and there may be some acid and 'shrooms involved too ;)

Alright, Reagan was a nice guy (sort of) and a decent public speaker (sometimes), but just not the right man for President of the United States. He was a radio sports announcer and an actor, for crying out loud. The man had no clue what he was talking about during those speeches, and what bothers me most was the he actually believed every single word he was saying! Even with Iran-Contra.

Nevertheless, Reagan did not speak with a stupid accent, which is more than I can say for any more recent Presidents.

You seem to forget that Reagan had politcal experience before he became president as governor of California for two terms from '66 to '74. And so what if he was a radio personality and an actor? Do former jobs in areas of other than politics or law not qualify people for office?

It doesnt matter what they did prior to there term in office, its what they do that matters........FDR was a great president for the 4 terms he stayed in office and he accomplished a lot...........