Israel annex Lebanon?

[reviewer-general]

I think Israel should just annex Lebanon finally . . .They have invaded 3 times, '78, '82 and '06, and each time they have blown the fucking hell out of the country. Beirut, one of the worlds most beautiful cities, has had to rebuilt several times. Obviously the Israelis and Lebanese are going to get pissed at each other some time down the road, so why not have Israel take over to better manage the "militant groups" there? At least then the country could get back on its feet after it attacks ITSELF, since it would now have the funding.

Actually though, I am opposed to Israel and the US backing of Israel. I'm not anti-Semetic (?), but I think that the US's relationship with Israel is total bullshit. The US supplies Israel with all this weaponry and money and Israel promptly uses it for the hell-bent destruction of its neighbors....so why do we keep giving them shit? I say we cut all "trade" with Israel (what are WE getting out of it???" and make them fend for their own fucking selves for a while, I mean, hell, they've survived in that hellhole of a desert for years, so maybe they should buck up. Every time Israel's actions are questioned, they play the whole "we just want a country like evryone else, where we can be left alone (for this read: REMEMBER THE HOLOCAUST!!!) After what the Jews have gone through in their history, you think they would understand about NOT indiscriminately blowing the shit out of other countries, and about showing some human remorse. No. They constantly play the guilt card with other countries, and act like the big cocks in the Mid East just because they have us backing them. Let's see how cocky their gov't is when they're no longer getting our tanks? Maybe they would wise up and tone it down a little. I doubt it. Israels gov't leaders need a good stern talking too....with some sanctions involved....

Another solution? Send 'em to Arizona, same conditions, with less bloodthirsty Arabs to kill you. What are the MORMONS gonna attack them?

The reviewer-general board would like to apologize to any Mormon who took offense to that last statement. We are sorry.

And Utah is very nice........

I think . . .

[SouthAsian]

Its really insanse.People like you and me know this and we so desperately want to get out to the mainstream media but giant asshole media companies like FOx like to feed their own bias propaganda.

[Brownie210]

At 1/5/07 10:31 PM, reviewer-general wrote: Another solution? Send 'em to Arizona, same conditions, with less bloodthirsty Arabs to kill you. What are the MORMONS gonna attack them?

The reviewer-general board would like to apologize to any Mormon who took offense to that last statement. We are sorry.

And Utah is very nice........

I think . . .

God gave that land to them, they will fight for it.
The Mormons.....

[The-brothers-III]

Mormons are almost as off the beaten path(in a bad way) as Scientologists. but that's waaay off topic.

[packow]

Israel would never annex lebanon. It would SERIOUSLY piss off the arabs living there and their neighbors.

Israel would not want to piss off any more arabs than it has to, it doesn't need more trouble.

Israel does not get all their supplies from the USA, this is common misconception. Israel buys raw materials from the USA, but uses its own technology and engineering. In fact, israel engineering is some of the best in the world. In terms of pure military technology, Israel is ahead of the United States. They do not share their technology secrets with anyone.

Out of the Israel trade our businessment get money in return for the goods. Thats how business works.

Israel is not hell-bent on destroying its neighbors, Israel is hell-bent on getting the terrorist attacks to stop. As it stands, there is at least one major terrorist attack every week, and every single Israeli citizen knows someone who has died in a terrorist attack.

[Begoner]

At 1/6/07 02:14 AM, packow wrote: Israel would not want to piss off any more arabs than it has to, it doesn't need more trouble.

That is one of the funniest things that I have heard! All Israel needs to do to stop pissing off Arabs is to stop stealing their land! Now, I know that's asking a lot, but if the Israelis really persevere, I know they can do it! Oh, it would also help to stop slaughtering innocent civilians, razing houses, committing war crimes, not complying with international law, etc., but they've got to take baby steps first.

[packow]

At 1/6/07 10:44 AM, Begoner wrote:

At 1/6/07 02:14 AM, packow wrote: Israel would not want to piss off any more arabs than it has to, it doesn't need more trouble.

That is one of the funniest things that I have heard! All Israel needs to do to stop pissing off Arabs is to stop stealing their land! Now, I know that's asking a lot, but if the Israelis really persevere, I know they can do it! Oh, it would also help to stop slaughtering innocent civilians, razing houses, committing war crimes, not complying with international law, etc., but they've got to take baby steps first.

You are such a stereotypical uninformed liberal it's not even funny.

Please, stop reading palestinian news and actually research the damn thing.

[Begoner]

At 1/6/07 03:26 PM, packow wrote: Please, stop reading palestinian news and actually research the damn thing.

Research the damn thing? Which point of mine was wrong? Did Israel commit numerous war crimes? Yes. Did Israel raze Palestinian houses to make way to settlements (incidentally, stealing Palestinian land in the process)? Yes. Did Israel slaughter an exorbitant amount of Arab civilians? Yes, although they called it "collateral damage." Did they break international law? Yes, on too many occasions to count. That's not even counting less egregious crimes, such as shutting down the economy of the Gaza Strip completely, installing roadblocks, freezing tax revenue, building walls around cities, thus devastating them economically, etc. Please stop reading Zionist Weekly and look at the facts.

[JudgeDredd]

This is almost as good as the idea Saddam had to annex Kuwait (..yeah, and parts of Iran 10 years before that).

And consider how that all turned out!

[reviewer-general]

At 1/6/07 02:14 AM, packow wrote: Israel would never annex lebanon. It would SERIOUSLY piss off the arabs living there and their neighbors.

Israel already pisses of the Arabs living there and their neighbors, WITHOUT annexing Lebanon, so what difference would it make, other than increasing their ability to attack innocent people that they label "terrorists", "radicals", etc.

I was not being entirely serious either, although in your brief moment of certitude I'm sure that is easy to overlook . . . I am merely pointing out how ridiculous it is that Israel can blow the shit out of another country REPEATEDLY AND WITH GUSTO, and no one will do anything about it.... BUt, hey, if you've got the unconditional backing of the strongest nation on the planet it doesnt matter how many international laws you break . . . No one will dare to punish you for breaking said laws (Iraq, Afghanistan anyone?).

[reviewer-general]

At 1/6/07 02:14 AM, packow wrote: Israel does not get all their supplies from the USA, this is common misconception. Israel buys raw materials from the USA, but uses its own technology and engineering.

So we shouldnt concern ourselves as to what those resources are being used for? Namely, the infringement of human rights and international law?

[packow]

At 1/6/07 03:40 PM, Begoner wrote:

At 1/6/07 03:26 PM, packow wrote: Please, stop reading palestinian news and actually research the damn thing.

Research the damn thing? Which point of mine was wrong? Did Israel commit numerous war crimes? Yes.

Please give a specific example, then.

Did Israel raze Palestinian houses to make way to settlements (incidentally, stealing Palestinian land in the process)? Yes.

Please, give me a specific example.

Did Israel slaughter an exorbitant amount of Arab civilians? Yes, although they called it "collateral damage."

The only reason Israel killed civilians is because terrorists hide behind them. Terrorist deliberately maintain their bases in heavily populated civilian areas and launch their rockets from within civilian areas, so that when Israel attacks them, and is thus forced to kill civilians in order to protect their country, the antizionist news organizations can have a feild day saying "ISRAEL MURDERS CIVILIANS!"

It's an old and very effective trick, but it doesn't mean that Israel is wrong for defending itself.

Did they break international law? Yes, on too many occasions to count.

Well, lets start hearing some examples then, Mr I know everything about the middle east.

That's not even counting less egregious crimes, such as shutting down the economy of the Gaza Strip completely

This was an INEVITABLE result of fully pulling out of the Gaza strip, which was known by people like you who DEMANDED that Israel disengage. You guys knew what would happen if you had your way, now live with it.

installing roadblocks, freezing tax revenue, building walls around cities, thus devastating them economically, etc. Please stop reading Zionist Weekly and look at the facts.

The problem with people who are anti-Israel is that they just don't know what the situation there is like. It is impossible to gain a full scope of the issue without actually visiting the area and learning about the situation firsthand.

They typically hear something like "Israel stole some land and are committing human rights violations to keep it." This is not the case as can easily be seen if you actually go to the areas in question and learn about them.

The lowest example of anti-Israel advocates are the ones that oppose israel's existance in the first place.

First of all, the Land in Question NEVER belonged to the arabs. It belonged the British, who gave the land formally to the Zionists.

The Zionists never kicked out the arabs. They allow arabs to live anywhere they please. There are some Arabs who beleive that it is their religious duty to remove all non-muslims from Israel, because their bible says that Muslims are the only ones who should own it. This is their only argument for why they should own it, which is invalidated by evidence in the Jewish bible to the contrary, which is scientifically known to predate the muslim bible by thousands of years.

If native americans started firing rockets out of their reservations into major american cities, you guys would say "America has no right to defend itself because they stole land in the first place."

There is no difference, no matter how you put it.

Actually, there is. And that difference is that the Native Americans actually owned the land at one point.

[Begoner]

Please, give me a specific example (razing Palestinian homes).

Here is a report by an Israeli human rights organization which stated that thousands of Palestinian homes were razed, most of them for "clearing" projects (ie, to make way for Israeli settlements). The actual report is very long and quite an insipid read, but you should at least peruse the summary.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/S ummaries/200411_Punitive_House_Demolitions.as p

The only reason Israel killed civilians is because terrorists hide behind them.

Really? Is that why the Israeli air force used cluster bombs? In fact, 90% of the cluster bombs used in the recent barrage of Lebanon were fired within the last 72 hours of the conflict with the sole goal of inflicting the greatest number of civilian deaths as possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/529993 8.stm

However, the scope of the operation to kill civilians is much larger than this. Frequently, missiles are fired without any precise aim kill civilians with impunity. Have you heard of the missiles which killed the foreign nationals trying to flee Lebanon during the war there? Were they harboring terrorists? Of course not. In total, 51 guiltless foreign nationals were killed during the air strikes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_th e_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Foreign_civili an_casualties

And how about when the Israelis entered a refugee camp with tanks and killed protesters and children? Not even the US vetoed that resolution, because even they knew that what Israel did was nihilistic, morally abhorrent, and completely reprehensible.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archive s/2004/05/21/2003156362

I'll cite more examples when I have more time, but I'll end here now.

[packow]

I don't have a problem with you citing specific incidents, but I do have a problem with you insisting that the "goal of Israel is to kill as many innocents as possible."

I don't have the time or patience to convince you that an entire military is not hell bent on murdering civilians. It's a stupid thing to try to convince someone of.

The presence of cluster bombs does not mean that Israel is trying to kill civilians.

In every one of those articles, the message is the same: Israel shoots into civilian areas because terrorists are there. Simple as that.

Maybe if you actually visit the country and see just WHAT THE FUCK THE PEOPLE THERE ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING, you'll realize just how hard the situation is.

What people fail to realize is that traditional rules of what is acceptable in war are not followed by either side in the conflict. This is a conflict of unprecidented brutality on both sides. You can not call one side right and the other wrong.

You can not contest a basic terrorist tactic. That tactic is to hide among civilians. When you have massive attacks coming not from military outposts, but from terrorists hiding among civilians, it's makes defense a very difficult goal to achieve.

Because of this, yes, Israel has to kill civilians. It is not because of some conspiracy that "Israel wants to kill all arabs and civilians because they are evil!" but because IT IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE WAY OF DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY.

Now of course, after reading that statement, you'll link me to some article in the BBC or some other newspaper about an article about shooting 10 innocent Arabs in the street and saying "WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DEFENDING THE COUNTRY?!"

Well I'll tell you something. There is no single look to a Terrorist. Terrorist are not only bearded men in robes who walk up to pizza places and yell "DURKA DURKA MOHAMMED JIHAD!" and blow themselves up.

Terrorists in Israel have been hippie chicks playing explosive-filled guitars in populated public areas.

Terrorists have been 10 year old children with bombs in their backpacks, told by their parents that the greatest deed a muslim boy can accomplish is to die while killing a jew.

Terrorists have been 15 year old girls on the internet who trick Israeli teenage boys into meeting them, where they are grabbed and tortured for being jewish.

Because it is EVERY SINGLE WEEK, and sometimes more often, that a terrorist attack like those exemplified above kill 30 or more innocent people, YES, ISRAEL HAS TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PROTECT ITSELF.

If you visit Israel, you will realize how different life in Israel is. There are certain guidlines that every civilian is expected to follow to avoid being suspected of terrorist action. These are very clear and widely known. There are clear guidlines as to how not to look suspicious to avoid having the police called on you.

I saw an article before, saying, "8 year old girl wanders onto a military outpost and is shot and killed! Therefore, Israel murders innocent children!"

When there were clear signs saying "tresspassers will be shot." In a fenced off area.

If terrorists used more humane tactics in their holy war, maybe Israel would use more humane tactics in their own defence. It's as simple as that.

The problem with people like you is that you don't know how it really is there. Terrorism in Israel is not some vague excuse to kill innocents. You get all your information from the news, and none from firsthand experience.

Terrorist attacks happen so often in Israel that every single one of Israel's 4.5 million inhabitants knows personally someone who has been killed in a terrorist attack.

Because it so often happens that an seemingly inconspicuous individual ends up murdering 40 people at a mall, yes, Israel sees many people as potential threats. Because many of these people kill everyone around them with a push of a button, innocent people will be killed to prevent these mass slaughters.

It's not like in America where terrorism or crime is something that "will happen to somebody else." People in Israel are well aware, and with good reason, that any second, they can be killed in a terrorist attack that no one saw coming.

It is a frustrating thing for a country like Israel to constantly be the victims of such attacks. You have to see it in this perspective: What would you do?

Except I shouldn't ask you that, because your statement will be "WELL, I WOUDN'T HAVE STOLEN THE LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE! I WOULD MOVE ALL 4.5 MILLION OF MY INHABITANTS TO ANOTHER PART OF THE WORLD!"

The worst part about people who are anti-Israel is that they offer no constructive criticism. They only say, "well, Israel is always wrong to fight back, because they are there illegally and have no right to exist in the first place."

FACT: No Arab nation ever was in control of Palestine. It belonged to the British, who legally gave the land to the zionists, who had been asking for a land of their own since the late 1800's. Originally, in fact, the Zionists had asked for Ethiopia.

The only solution to the problem EVER offered by anti-zionists is "move all 4.5 million people out of the country." You know, because, moving 4.5 million people to another nation is something easy to do.

Israel had established countless settlements since the late 1800s in palestine. All the British did was turn over the Government to them.

When you are given a land, you defend that land. You don't pack up and move just because some people want you out. Americans displaced native Americans, you wouldn't want to move all 280 million Americans out if the tribes started shooting us just because "they were there first."

It's happened countless times in history that one government takes the place of another, and one people take the place of another.

Yes, there is alot of killing in Israel. Yes, many more arabs have died than Israelis. This can be attributed to the fact that Israel protects its citizens better than other countries (such as lebanon, who give a ludicrous amount of control to terrorist organizations like Hezbollah).

[Der-Ubermensch]

Historically the jews have always gotten what's coming to them..
We all know what they say about the repetitiveness of history.

[Denta]

At 1/8/07 03:04 AM, Der-Ubermensch wrote: Historically the jews have always gotten what's coming to them..
We all know what they say about the repetitiveness of history.

Precisely, HAIL MOSHE KATSAV!!!1 \o

[Begoner]

At 1/7/07 10:11 PM, packow wrote: In every one of those articles, the message is the same: Israel shoots into civilian areas because terrorists are there. Simple as that.

Not only does it shoot in civilian areas, which is an indisputable and incontrovertible fact, but it also targeted several members of a UN peacekeeping force. The UNIFIL commander repeatedly told the Israeli army liaison not to bombard a particular observation post, but to no avail. The four unarmed observers inside were, frankly, butchered senselessly by the Israelis. Of course, to justify a human rights violation by claiming that at least some militiamen died is morally reprehensible. It's analogous to dropping a nuclear weapon on Beirut and asserting that it's fine, since a lot of Hezbollah fighters also died in the strike. It is a disgusting act which is tantamount to indiscriminately targeting civilians, and you cannot weasel your way out of that one by any amount of circumlocution. It's wrong and indefensible, period. Incidentally, if you want a source on the slaughtering of UN forces, you should read the (brief) UN press release.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/ pr010.pdf

Maybe if you actually visit the country and see just WHAT THE FUCK THE PEOPLE THERE ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING, you'll realize just how hard the situation is.

Are you kidding me? What civilians in Israel are experiencing? What about civilians in Lebanon, in the West Bank, and especially in the Gaza Strip? Their suffering at the hands of the Israelis is infinitely worse than the conditions in Israel. The GDP per capita in Israel is 40 times higher than that in the Gaza Strip, where the average person only makes $600 dollars a year. Can you imagine living on such a low wage? Of course not. Nonetheless, Israel has embarked on a programme to demolish the economy of the Gaza Strip via roadblocks, blockades, walls, military incursions, bombardments, etc. Perhaps you are the one who needs to walk around in a Palestinian's shoes for a while. The horrible circumstances which you have imposed upon ordinary men are unimaginably horrible and ghastly.

You can not call one side right and the other wrong.

I can call the aims of one side correct and the other flawed. Israel is illegally occupying much territory which it should have ceded 30 years ago; it is illegally holding thousands of Arabs prisoner without a trial; it is constantly bombarding civilian areas; it is illegally building settlements in the Occupied Territories; it has a lengthy record of committing war crimes; it is devastating the Arab economy through such actions as building walls around particular towns and freezing tax revenue. Once it stops all these criminal actions, only then will there be peace. The Arabs are fighting for their rights and the Israelis are fighting for neo-imperialism, and that's the difference.

YES, ISRAEL HAS TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE TO PROTECT ITSELF.

Indeed. Look at all these innocent children which the Israelis butchered in cold blood because they "looked" like terrorists (ie, they were Arabic). Just glancing quickly at the list, one was shot by an Israeli helicopter while driving a wounded friend to the hospital. One was shot at a refugee camp which was invaded by Israeli tanks (many other people were shot during similar incidents when they protested against the unlawful incursion, which reminds me of the picture below).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8 /Tianasquare.jpg

Several were innocent bystanders who were killed by a missile in an assassination attempt. One of the children was a 4-year-old. One child was shot because he had the temerity to throw stones at illegally invading IDF forces. All these senseless deaths are disturbing and deeply depressing. It seems that the Israelis have no humanity of which to speak; they are monsters. In 2006, there were 76 times more Palestinian children killed than Israeli ones. This slaughter of children by the Israelis deeply disgusts me.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember 2006.html

If terrorists used more humane tactics in their holy war

If the terrorists complied with international law and ceded the territories they were illegally occupying, and agreed to terminate their expansionist war, then many the Arab militias would stop fighting and resort to more humane tactics.

Terrorist attacks happen so often in Israel that every single one of Israel's 4.5 million inhabitants knows personally someone who has been killed in a terrorist attack.

Really? Since the beginning of the Second Intifada, just over 1000 Israelis have been killed. That would mean that every inhabitant personally knows more than 4,500 people. But, then again, Israel has over 6,000,000 inhabitants, so you are just spouting uniformed bullshit, which is typical.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook /geos/is.html

FACT: No Arab nation ever was in control of Palestine. It belonged to the British, who legally gave the land to the zionists, who had been asking for a land of their own since the late 1800's. Originally, in fact, the Zionists had asked for Ethiopia.

Let's assume a hypothetical situation. It's 1775, and the British are in control of the US. They decide that the pesky colonists are about to declare independence, so they decide to preempt this move by simply transferring control of the entire American South to a Native American tribe. Just like that. Without consulting the American people. Do you think that the Americans would be fine with this, or do you think that they would attempt to regain control of their land? The British used to control large swaths of land all over Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. However, they were driven out and gave all their former colonies independence and a separate state -- all except one, that is: Palestine. They had no right to be in Palestine in the first place, just like they had no right to be in India. Nonetheless, they were presumptuous enough to assert their control of the territory and give what was not theirs to Israel. It's not fair at all. However, I'm not saying that an Israeli state can't exist in the Middle East. I am saying, though, that as they should not have been there in the first place, they better fucking not start massacring the neighboring Arabs and stealing their land.

[packow]

Begoner, I'm not trying to convince you that Israel is correct by killing people. I'm not even trying to say that nearly all the people killed were actually terrorists.

I'm trying to tell you that Israel, as it stands, is doing what it truely believes is necessary to protect the lives of its people.

The 1,000 death toll only accounts for civilians. Did not you know that every person over 18 in Israel is required to enlist in the army? If you are born in Israel, you must join the military when your turn 18. This is why people know so many people who were killed in terrorist attacks.

I don't have a problem debating Israel's tactics, which I beleive are questionable, but I have a serious issue with your steadfast assertion that Israel targets innocents and peacekeepers. You are pointlessly villifying them.

I know that Israel does the best that it possibly can to protect the lives of its people and makes its best effort to keep civilain casualties low, which unfortunately is not always possible. I know this because I have personally lived with several Israeli soldiers, including many of official status in the army.

They are trained to keep civilian casualties as low as possible. The Israeli army is VERY Intent on keeping civilian casualties low, even among arabs. In Jenin, they insisted on a house-to-house approach instead of bombing it, in Order to keep civilian casualties down, even if it meant risking their own soldiers lives. In fact, many families of the deceased soldiers sued the IDF for being "Too cautious with civilian lives."

Please, despite what the liberal-biased news would have you beleive, Israel is not embarking on some sort of ethnic cleansing operation designed to kill all arabs.

You can claim that Israel should not have been there in the first place all you want.

But you can not say that Israel does not have a right to defend itself just because you don't think they should be there in the first place.

Face it: Israel is not going anywhere. No matter what you say about a 60 year old legal independence.

You could be helpful, and offer constructive opinions as to what Israel should do in order to ensure peace for everyone, or you can just repeat the phrase "Israel shouldnt be there in the first place, so all 4.5 million jews should leave the country."

You can't say a man who kills 40 people in a suicide bomb attack is suddenly justified because he is doing it to a country who you believe stole his people's land 60 years ago.

KILLING IS WRONG. END OF STORY.

I'd like to know what you think Israel should do.

But if you're just going to say "move all 4,500,000 million people out so that the extremists can have their way," then just shut up.

Nations such as Lebanon weren't suffering because of Israel. They were suffering because corrupt governments give political power to extremist groups such as Hezbollah, who use money that would otherwise go toward helping the people to buy bombs and guns just to fight against Israel.

If another Muslim theocracy were established in Israel, the suffering of the people would only be worse.

[packow]

Oh, and for the record, as of december '06, Israel's population was 7,100,000.

But the JEWISH population is 4.95 Million.

[Begoner]

At 1/8/07 05:28 PM, packow wrote: Please, despite what the liberal-biased news would have you beleive

I live in the US, which is practically the only country which supports Israel, through thick and through thin, in the entire world. The media here paints a very flattering portrait of Israel, so I obtain non-biased information from other sources. Do not bring the myth of the liberal media into this discussion.

I'd like to know what you think Israel should do.

It should take several steps to ensure the cooperation of the major Palestinian parties. First and most imperative, it should immediately withdraw from all the territories which it acquired through wars (either defensive or offensive) and respect the original treaty boundary which was delineated in the aftermath of the second world war. After it has done this, it should devote 1% of its yearly GDP to alleviating the rampant poverty in the Occupied Territories, which currently exists in large part because of the damage inflicted by its military. It should grant a fair trial to all the prisoners which it is currently holding or release them, and begin a process of reducing roadblocks and forging a partnership with the Palestinian government, which is the only entity which can effectively control the Arab militias.

[JakeHero]

Actually, I don't think most arabs would give a damn about Lebanon. Lebanon is the most liberal-minded country in the Middle East and seems to be a melting pot of so many cultures that it can't be considered solely arabic. It's sort of like the US.

Though Al Jazeer and Plastine would use such an annex as propaganda to further their agendas.

[packow]

At 1/8/07 06:12 PM, Begoner wrote:

At 1/8/07 05:28 PM, packow wrote: Please, despite what the liberal-biased news would have you beleive

I live in the US, which is practically the only country which supports Israel, through thick and through thin, in the entire world. The media here paints a very flattering portrait of Israel, so I obtain non-biased information from other sources. Do not bring the myth of the liberal media into this discussion.

I'd like to know what you think Israel should do.

It should take several steps to ensure the cooperation of the major Palestinian parties. First and most imperative, it should immediately withdraw from all the territories which it acquired through wars (either defensive or offensive) and respect the original treaty boundary which was delineated in the aftermath of the second world war.

We've already been through with this. We give palestinians some land, they keep attacking because they want more land. We could give them all the occupied territories, but then they would continue the attacks until all Jews were removed from Israel.

We cannot make such tremendous concessions based on the sheer faith in the palestinian parties. They will continue to finance the War against Jews in Israel. We already gave back the entire sinai peninsula, with the promise that the violence would stop. Guess what? They didn't live up to their end of the deal and just resumed their terrorist activities and asked for more land.

Right now, they ask for the Golan heights and the West bank.

Giving them the golan heights would allow for snipers to pick off Israelis from across the border, and provide a safe haven for VERY precise bombing of Major Israeli cities (infinitely more precise than the Katyushas coming from Lebanon). This has happened in the past, and we have no good reason to believe that it wont happen again.

The west bank is a more reasonable argument. However, it is a massive section of land, and based on the palestinian organizations' records, ceding such a huge amount of land would be pure idiocy. Giving them this land would literally cut Israel in half. I would, however, not be opposed to ceding a smaller section of the West Bank that did not include Jerusalem. Muslims control a quarter of the city anyway, INCLUDING the temple mount, which they closed off to all Jews. THEY GOT THEIR HOLY SITE, and yet they want more.

After it has done this, it should devote 1% of its yearly GDP to alleviating the rampant poverty in the Occupied Territories, which currently exists in large part because of the damage inflicted by its military.

It's a great Idea in theory, but we can't be sure that the Palestinian organizations won't just pocket the money for their own uses as they've done so much in the past.

It should grant a fair trial to all the prisoners which it is currently holding or release them, and begin a process of reducing roadblocks and forging a partnership with the Palestinian government, which is the only entity which can effectively control the Arab militias.

The Palestinian Government has proved untrustworthy time and time again. They promise to "stop the terror attacks." Instead, they finance OTHER terrorists to attack Israel in their place.

They currently offer a large cash reward to any family whose father dies by suicide bombing. They provide cash incentives for fathers to murder themselves and others.

I don't call that trustworthy.

[Begoner]

At 1/8/07 06:27 PM, packow wrote: We cannot make such tremendous concessions

Concessions? You should have obeyed international law 30 years ago when the UN passed a resolution telling Israel to withdraw from the Occupied Territories. It's not your fucking land; you have no right to it. It's the absolute least the state of Israel could do. I shudder to think that it's such a big step for Israel to accede to the most fundamental of international laws. Such belligerence and expansionism is truly frightening. Even the Arabs who want to conquer all of Israel have a much stronger argument than people who want to retain the Occupied Territories, because Israel was created on their land, which they had a right to. People with such strict ideologies as you are worse than any terrorist.

At 1/5/07 10:46 PM, Ecko-WR wrote: Its really insanse.People like you and me know this and we so desperately want to get out to the mainstream media

You are

but giant asshole media companies like FOx like to feed their own bias propaganda.

I'd bet shitloads have never watched that shit more than a couple of times.

[packow]

At 1/8/07 06:41 PM, Begoner wrote:

At 1/8/07 06:27 PM, packow wrote: We cannot make such tremendous concessions

Concessions? You should have obeyed international law 30 years ago when the UN passed a resolution telling Israel to withdraw from the Occupied Territories.

Those occupied territories being the Nation of Lebanon, you mean?

It's not your fucking land; you have no right to it.

Last time I checked, when a Nation loses land in War, it's not their land anymore. Syria decided to Invade Israel. They declared war. They made their gamble and lost. Boo Hoo. Now poor Syria can't use a peice of mountain range to murder innocents with. Oh, The HORROR!

Why is Israel the only country in the world, in your opinion, that isn't allowed to occupy land?

Germany lost a substantial amount of Land to Poland and other countries after World War II. They were punished for their arrogance. You don't see Germans suicide bombing Polish pizza parlors.

It's the absolute least the state of Israel could do. I shudder to think that it's such a big step for Israel to accede to the most fundamental of international laws.

What law is that? Whatever a country wants back, country gets? If Syria didn't want to lose land in War, they shouldn't have declared war. Thus, Israel wins the land they fought for. Thus it is, in fact, their land.

Such belligerence and expansionism is truly frightening.

Call it what you like. But I don't consider holding a tiny mountain range for the purpose of protecting innocent lives "expansionism."

Israel gave up its biggest landholdings already. They didn't HAVE to give back the Sinai peninsula, but they did, to bargain for peace. They got nothing in return but more violence.

Even the Arabs who want to conquer all of Israel have a much stronger argument than people who want to retain the Occupied Territories, because Israel was created on their land, which they had a right to. People with such strict ideologies as you are worse than any terrorist.

IDEOLOGIES? What the fuck are you talking about? What "ideologies" might these be?

DId you even read what I wrote? Or just the part you highlighted?

Show me the UN resolution ordering Israel to withdraw from the Golan heights and the West bank, please.

[Begoner]

At 1/8/07 07:23 PM, packow wrote: Those occupied territories being the Nation of Lebanon, you mean? Show me the UN resolution ordering Israel to withdraw from the Golan heights and the West bank, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_S ecurity_Council_Resolution_242

[packow]

If Israel believed that it could acheive peace by ceding land to their angry neighbors, they would have done it long ago.

But because, as I have mentioned before, Israel is not obligated to return the land it rightfully captured in war, it has no reason to just give the land away to organizations that have proved so untrustworthy.

If you can show me where the UN has told Israel to give up the Golan heights and/or the West Bank, then by all means, Israel should give up the land that the UN has deemed to not be theirs.

[packow]

At 1/8/07 07:27 PM, Begoner wrote:

At 1/8/07 07:23 PM, packow wrote: Those occupied territories being the Nation of Lebanon, you mean? Show me the UN resolution ordering Israel to withdraw from the Golan heights and the West bank, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_S ecurity_Council_Resolution_242

eh hem

"Israel and Jordan accepted the resolution. The other Arab nations involved with the conflict and the PLO rejected it."

[packow]

You know what? I give up.

I'm not really an Israel advocate at heart, and I don't know enough about it to take up the responsibility of being any sort of representative. This is really not my topic.

I really only have one goal.

When I hear about a suicide bomb that kills 15 people in a mall, I don't want to hear people saying "Well that's their own fault that they got killed cuz they stole land."

I know so many Israelis who I beleive deserve to live, no matter what the country's history.

And I support any measure that will keep them alive.

I don't want to hear people say that America should stop supporting Israel altogether, because if that was to happen, I know many people who would be in serious danger.

Please, just remember that there are many Israelis who have lived there for their entire lives and only want to continue their way of life without worrying that someone is about to slaughter them and their families.

[packow]

I'd also like to add that I know many members of the Israeli army personally, many of them high ranking officials. They are very sweet people who only have the best intentions in mind.

It hurts me personally to hear that these people I know and love being accused of being "soulless monsters."

I see these stories about Israeli soldiers murdering innocent children and I think "no one I know what ever do that!"

Here is how I see the situation.

I see on one hand, a group of well meaning Israelis who are bearing the burden of being handed a highly controversial plot of land.

On the other hand, I see terrorist training videos who instruct children to murder any jew that they see. They tell their children that the greatest honor a muslim boy can perform is to murder a jew. They show propaganda videos to children telling them that given the chance, a Jew will rape and kill them and take their money. They show stereotypical jews stealing money, and then a heroic muslim boy slinging a rock at the "jewish menace." They then show the boy getting shot and praising Allah with his dying words.

Whenever I see someone claiming that Jews have no right to be in Israel, I see them siding with these terrorists. I think, "how can a person possibly think that these people are right?"