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At 1/5/07 02:37 PM, SteveGuzzi wrote:

athiest viewpoint is generally a hopeless viewpoint.... 'hopeless' in the sense that by having an athiestic perspective you're esentially claiming that there is no real truth or purpose inherent to life or existence as a whole. That's maaaaaaaad depressing -- practically a defeatist attitude towards the very concepts of what Truth and Goodness are supposed to consist of

Athiests generally decide on what their 'purpose' in life is to be, rather than have some ancient text decide for them. Being athiest is being free to think for yourself and there nothing depressing about that. Also athiests dont need an ancient text to tell them whats right or wrong, every living creature knows that. A defeatest attitude to 'Truth and Goodness' would just be accepting what you are told rather than putting in any effort to find out yourself.

I find it depressing that people spend their entire life praying and worshipping to set them up in the next life rather than making the most of this one.

At 1/5/07 03:43 PM, Imperator wrote: I think quite the reverse is happening. Atheists aren't being discriminated against, they're the minority in power.

Example: I can't wish you a Merry Christmas without hurting your feelings, therefore in all correct forms of behavior I am not allowed to say those words........

Most of the PC in America is very pro-atheist, anti-religious. "Happy Holidays" has replaced Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah. I am not allowed to learn about my or other religions in school, they have to be taught in a separate program or school.

I thank you for your honest post, I dont agree because the sources I am reading dont tell me this. the example you stated was in our news too. but I thought it was about not stepping on any toes of other religios people. the lobby of the theists are still by far the most influencial ones. and the example I gave also shows otherwise.

At 1/6/07 01:25 AM, Imperator wrote:
Every president has been of the Christian faith......
WOOp, the country is founded. WOOp, the country becomes a global power. WOOp, the country becomes the world's only Superpower.....

I am glad someone brought this to the attention, because it is also broadly debated in the book. First of I know very little of what the writer calls 'the founding fathers' so I'll start by saying what I am gonna say is only based on what I just red: Dawkins says that the founding fathers of america where maybe christians officially, but more agnostic, deistic and even atheistic in real life. they were free thinkers who would (according to dawkins but also other intellectuals) frown upon the way christianity is being promoted nowadays.
The conclusion is being made that america was founded by atheists! but atheists with respect for every religion.

At 1/6/07 04:07 AM, Bolo wrote: I honestly would not be surprised if in the next fifty years, the number of atheists across the world will increase exponentially. I think you'll see that as science provides more and more facts that contradict god, and simply cannot be refuted, the number of atheists will increase porportionally.

I used to think this was true, but christianity is again gaining popularity, not only in america also in european nations the church is gaining members again. maybe this is due to the threathing behavior of the muslims, but unfortunatly they are growing in numbers.

We should live our lives based on what we know to be true, as opposed to some delusion that we can never prove.

exactly

At 1/5/07 02:37 PM, SteveGuzzi wrote: I think it makes plenty of sense to distrust a politician who openly admits to not believing in any type of higher guiding force or power or universal sort of justice within existence while at the same time attempting to increase their own level of power over people.

thanks for your post, I dont see how power is more to be trusted in the hands of a religious person then an atheist. Both types of people have proved they abuse power, and both have proved they can handle it.

Of course there are plenty of athiests who act morally and ethically and honestly try to find/make their own meaning to/of life etc etc buuuuuuuuuut the athiest viewpoint is generally a hopeless viewpoint.... 'hopeless' in the sense that by having an athiestic perspective you're esentially claiming that there is no real truth or purpose inherent to life or existence as a whole. That's maaaaaaaad depressing -- practically a defeatist attitude towards the very concepts of what Truth and Goodness are supposed to consist of -- and I sure wouldn't want a leader of people to hold let alone promote that kind of attitude.

I dont agree with your viewpoint of what is truth. most atheist dont 100% denie the possible existence of a god, they just dont confrom there life to it. And how is god a truth? the next question that is raised is who is gods creator?
isnt moral and ethical standards and his capabilities the only things that should count in a nation filled with numberous of totally different believes?
The only argument you state I cant go in about is about our 'depressing and defeatist' attitude. Its an opnion, you obviously have, being a theist. I can assure you it is not how I see life. I would honestly be more depressed when I would believe in a god, and thing would go the way I want it to go, I would see this as constant punishment of god, and the fear that every mistake I would make would end me up in hell, but that just an theoretical opninion too

A Muslim in Congress or a (whatever) as President wouldn't raise any warning flags with me, but an athiest politician vying for any position of power would raise my suspicions of that person in an instant.

Why? because he is not afraid of hellfire?

People bicker over the differences in religions way too much... something that they ALL share is the sense that there's more to life than what meets the eye and that the unseen things are just as important if not more-so than the seen... athiests basically say "nope, that's all there is to it." and shut themselves off from an entire realm of thought -- a realm of thought that essentially is a central facet to all known and unknown cultures and civilizations past and present in all their extreme and profound diversity.

Not really true, but ill go along. science is limited, and we cannot debate everything. but why can a religious people be of more importance on the subject god then a atheist? what has your unseen world got to do with how nations should be run? only morals and ethics are of importance and that YOU claimed atheists have.
You can believe in god as much as you want but not doing so doesnt make you less of a person does it?
I have another question: would you rather vote on an atheist or a theist that believes in fairies unicorns and mighty trolls??

At 1/6/07 04:07 AM, Bolo wrote:

as opposed to some delusion that we can never prove.

And as Tomson wrote: now I also red atheist are being discriminated against in the US

Oh yes, very tolerant. Hypocrites.

ah well religious numbers are on the decrease so this is going to be irrelevent in 3 or 4 generations

At 1/6/07 12:18 PM, cold-as-hell wrote: ah well religious numbers are on the decrease so this is going to be irrelevent in 3 or 4 generations

as I wrote earlier they arent

I find it funny that no matter were you go, the only people who have a problem with atheists are Christians.

But Christianity has always forced itself upon the masses.Even the president of the U.S.A is a Christian Fundamentalist!

Remember kids, "Homosexual acts are an abomination to God!"

At 1/6/07 06:03 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: I find it funny that no matter were you go, the only people who have a problem with atheists are Christians.

Yes, all Christians have a problem with all atheists and there is not one single person from another religion that has a problem with athiests.

Your misinterpreting me, perhaps I should have been clearer. The only group I have ever seen to challange has been Christians. The US contains 5.2 million Jews, 1.1 million Muslims and 1.4 million Hindus.

Ive never heard a gripe from one of them.

*cries out in a melodramatic voice*

FREEEEEEEEEEDOOOOM!!!!!

Well, it's not that surprising when you think about it. A large part of the original American colonists were part of a minority that had fled Europe in an attempt to escape ideological presecution. Well, "minority". Quite a bit of protestants, for instance. History shows that the teachings they had brought were applied a lot stricter (especially when it came to their offspring) than they did in Europe. Hence, the amount of atheists is rather small in the US (about 5% if I remember correctly). I suppose some people might feel that an atheist president wouldn't have the "moral compass" required to benefit the nation as a whole.

At 1/6/07 12:26 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 1/6/07 12:18 PM, cold-as-hell wrote: ah well religious numbers are on the decrease so this is going to be irrelevent in 3 or 4 generations

as I wrote earlier they arent

statistically there are more people in the world who believe in aliens than in god. Because there are at least 5000 recorded (not a hoax) sightings. And there are how many God sightings? Thats right none.

At 1/6/07 06:30 PM, Chris-V2 wrote:

Ive never heard a gripe from one of them.

Apparently you haven't been listening.

At 1/6/07 06:03 PM, Chris-V2 wrote: I find it funny that no matter were you go, the only people who have a problem with atheists are Christians.

But Christianity has always forced itself upon the masses.Even the president of the U.S.A is a Christian Fundamentalist!

Remember kids, "Homosexual acts are an abomination to God!"

Go and say that you're an atheist or gay in the middle east and I'll have someone cut your body of the noose later.

of coarse they will be discriminated against because christianity is the biggest religion in the united states. put a country of beleivers and a handfull of aithiests together and see what you get.

Maybe we should get a person who is gay, has had and abortion, has had pre-marital sex, is an athiest, and swares constantly.

Then they have to murder as many religious people as they can. That way they wont go to hell for being gay, had an abortion etc. Just for being a pychopath. Its a full proof plan.

At 1/6/07 07:13 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 1/6/07 12:26 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 1/6/07 12:18 PM, cold-as-hell wrote: ah well religious numbers are on the decrease so this is going to be irrelevent in 3 or 4 generations

as I wrote earlier they arent

statistically there are more people in the world who believe in aliens than in god. Because there are at least 5000 recorded (not a hoax) sightings. And there are how many God sightings? Thats right none.

link plz!
and what are you saying? that still doesnt mean the number of christians is not on the rise

At 1/6/07 09:01 PM, ragingfred wrote: of coarse they will be discriminated against because christianity is the biggest religion in the united states. put a country of beleivers and a handfull of aithiests together and see what you get.

And yet it really weird how they almost always win anything relgous.

"NO PRAYER IN SCHOOL!" haha.

At 1/7/07 10:59 AM, Reconstruct wrote: "NO PRAYER IN SCHOOL!" haha.

You can pray in school, you just can't have prayer led by teachers.

At 1/5/07 10:59 AM, sdhonda wrote: Except for JFK, every US president has been a, more or less devout, protestant.

Yeah I don't believe we have ever had a Roman Catholic President(what my parents are) most of the time it's Lutheran or Baptist from what I know. Even though now the differences between the religion's is not that great anymore In historical terms it was a very big deal when the Great Scism happened it caused the Thirty-Years war. Then the changes were very apparent, but now they have faded for the most part. Now, It's the battle against Atheism since it's more or less the New Kid on the block. And we ALL know the world hates change when it comes to religon

does it truly matter what religion we are? was it our choice where we were born? was our families our choice? no.

So why do we have segregation and antisemitism? if it wasnt our choice to receve life, then why should we be against other peoples choices? If a person wants to be different, then let him. all we should be truly interested in is the benification of human kind. Humans are adaptable. we could move from one state of life to another and still find ways to survive.

we should not devote our self to the hinderence of others. please dont misunderstand me, but we as american citezens have to rethink where we are going.this may be wrong, but most christians that i know, beleive that Jesus will come, and that will be the end? well, what do you think will make him hapier? a self reliant race of biengs where violence is a thing of the past, where differnces are openly exepted, or what the world is today.

Just think, why are we arguing this?

At 1/7/07 01:20 PM, Vrael wrote: Yeah I don't believe we have ever had a Roman Catholic President

JFK was Roman Catholic.

At 1/7/07 10:14 AM, Tomsan wrote:

link plz!
and what are you saying? that still doesnt mean the number of christians is not on the rise

I call it the magical world of google. Go look your self.

At 1/7/07 07:38 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 1/7/07 10:14 AM, Tomsan wrote:

link plz!
and what are you saying? that still doesnt mean the number of christians is not on the rise

I call it the magical world of google. Go look your self.

Bullshit. If you're called upon to find a source, then you're obliged to provide it or to shut the flying fuck up.

The whole debate here is a bit skewed. When you look into something like the presidency of the United States there are a large number of factors to consider, like for example what the presidents view on topics of great interest are like abortion or the war in Iraq. In addition their view on these topics for someone to be elected president their religion, or lack there of comes into play. If the information in previous posts is correct and only 5% of the U.S. population is atheist it is pretty crazy to think that strictly based on religion, and no other factors to consider that a person whose religious views differs from 95% of the country would be elected. That doesn't consider that even though there is a seperation of church and state the U.S. is a Christian country. Look at any U.S. currency and tell me that somewhere on that currency it does not say "In God we trust". I babble on though. The point is that no country is going to elect a leader that has views that are radically different from the vast majority of its inhabitants.

I don't really know enough facts about the number of atheists in America, but I have kind of a relevant story: I have considered myself an atheist for as long as I've known what the term meant, but a problem arose during my time in the Marine Corps. The problem was that I was not allowed to have "atheist" on my dog tags as my religion. I was forced to have "no preference" written, which I considered an insult because I did in fact have a preference. I later learned that it was because there is a list of accepted religions that servicemen can have. I fought it as hard as I could (which wasn't very hard, considering my rank of Lance Corporal at the time) and got no real response until about 6 months later, when I found out that, due to another incident, "atheist" had been added to the list of accepted religions. I promptly changed my religion to "satanist" to try to stir the pot some more. :)

At 1/8/07 05:10 AM, MightyMightyKirk wrote: I was forced to have "no preference" written, which I considered an insult because I did in fact have a preference.

when I found out that, due to another incident, "atheist" had been added to the list of accepted religions.

I dont see how this is insulting. Atheism is not a religion, still you act like it is. No preference is just as good on your dog tag, it makes clear you do not believe in any specific god, or none.
the way you describe it makes atheists look like they BELIEVE in something while they DO NOT!
especially the last sentence: "accepted religions" is kinda funny I dont think any gov sees atheism as a religion

At 1/8/07 03:06 AM, qygibo wrote:

At 1/7/07 07:38 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 1/7/07 10:14 AM, Tomsan wrote:

link plz!
and what are you saying? that still doesnt mean the number of christians is not on the rise

I call it the magical world of google. Go look your self.

Bullshit. If you're called upon to find a source, then you're obliged to provide it or to shut the flying fuck up.

If you dont believe me then look it up yourself, I dont give a fuck if you take my word for it.

At 1/8/07 08:53 AM, cold-as-hell wrote: If you dont believe me then look it up yourself, I dont give a fuck if you take my word for it.

You recommended Google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=number +of+religious+people+declining&btnG=Google+Se arch&meta=

Notice how many of the sources contradict each other. You can't just say "Google it" and expect to not have to provide a reliable source of your own.

At 1/5/07 02:37 PM, SteveGuzzi wrote: I think it makes plenty of sense to distrust a politician who openly admits to not believing in any type of higher guiding force or power or universal sort of justice within existence while at the same time attempting to increase their own level of power over people.

Well let's put it another way.
You're in front of a liquor store, and there's two beggars. One says "give me money for food" and the other "give me money for beer".
:o

I don't think anyone has any illusions about politicians in this day and age. To see that 49% of people apparently distrust an atheist for reasons I'd like explained... is really sad. There is no possibly way that it can mean something good.
None at all.

And it's not like people make the difference between "atheist" and "agnostic" anyways, so it's probably pointless to ask them for both....

Yes, but the things that america did to get to power are very dispicable, being the most powerful dont make you the most moral/ in the right.

As opposed to other nations who rose through power through pure noble means? At least at one point in history we were considered the most prestigious nation on Earth for the level of freedom we provided people. "Streets of gold" "Do anything you want", etc and all that.
Although times change, and other nations now have similar freedoms. You seem to forget that Pilgrims were those escaping religious persecution....

I thank you for your honest post, I dont agree because the sources I am reading dont tell me this. the example you stated was in our news too. but I thought it was about not stepping on any toes of other religios people. the lobby of the theists are still by far the most influencial ones. and the example I gave also shows otherwise.

Rightly so. Since Christians make up the vast majority of the country's population, it is only right and proper that the interests of Christians come first. That's the spitting definition of democracy.

The conclusion is being made that america was founded by atheists! but atheists with respect for every religion.

JP2 was a remarkable Pope, who tried to unite all 3 Abrahamic religions under the philosophy that they were all essentially the same. The founders may have been atheists, then again, they may not have been. The conclusion is based on what the author believes are the founders true intentions towards religion. In reality, how each man practiced (or did not) religion may have been widely varied.

It's still debated as to how much of a Christian G. Washington was, just as it is still debated how much of a Christian Constantine was....

I used to think this was true, but christianity is again gaining popularity, not only in america also in european nations the church is gaining members again. maybe this is due to the threathing behavior of the muslims, but unfortunatly they are growing in numbers.

Why unfortunately? Do you associate Christians with "Bad" and atheists with "Good"?

We should live our lives based on what we know to be true, as opposed to some delusion that we can never prove.

You don't see where that's a very very pessimistic outlook on life and where it might turn some people off? What you know to be "true" will change daily. When you were a kid, you knew Pluto was a planet. Now you know otherwise.....

What you call delusions I call visions. And nearly every great scientist, leader, warrior, and humanitarian throughout history has had to dream of something great before achieving that dream.

I would honestly be more depressed when I would believe in a god, and thing would go the way I want it to go, I would see this as constant punishment of god, and the fear that every mistake I would make would end me up in hell, but that just an theoretical opninion too

And which religion would that take adhere to? Being Roman Catholic, I can tell you that that's not what my religion is about. It seems like you've made up your opinions on religion based solely on stereotypes and hearsay, instead of actually researching your opinions.......Fire and Brimstone went out before the turn of the last century.

science is limited, and we cannot debate everything. but why can a religious people be of more importance on the subject god then a atheist?

If your view of religion is based solely on the stereotypes of 300 years ago, then the answer would be YES.

what has your unseen world got to do with how nations should be run? only morals and ethics are of importance and that YOU claimed atheists have.

History's lessons ignored.....

I have another question: would you rather vote on an atheist or a theist that believes in fairies unicorns and mighty trolls??

And there's another stereotype associated with religion. And you say there's persecution against atheists......I'm seeing it against theists, coming from your own words......

And there are how many God sightings? Thats right none.

Look up angel, saint, miracle sightings. There's a few hundred thousand. With 2.1 billion believers btw (Catholics alone).

At 1/8/07 11:12 AM, Peter-II wrote:

At 1/8/07 08:53 AM, cold-as-hell wrote: If you dont believe me then look it up yourself, I dont give a fuck if you take my word for it.

You recommended Google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=number +of+religious+people+declining&btnG=Google+Se arch&meta=

Notice how many of the sources contradict each other. You can't just say "Google it" and expect to not have to provide a reliable source of your own.

I say 'google it' but I acually mean watch the discovery channel for 4 days straight drinking tenents, bayles and whisky, lager and beer. Love left over drink from chrissy and new year.