iraq in chaos, their fault?

[HogWashSoup]

everyone is saying that the reason why iraq is in chaos is because of the iraqies themselves. that "we gave them freedom and they have chosen not to take it"

america thinks the world must be a democracy. thats completey idiotic. what works for one country may not work for another country. some countries work better as a dictatorship.

now iraq was in some form of chaos before we went in, however after destroying their government and then fourcing our own governemnt upon them, it has become total chaos. whats worse is that no one in america is taking the blame. but that isnt a surprise. if america does something bad, we blame someone else. if something goes good, we take the credit. we america is the jackass country of the world. we want everyone to be like us, and if you aren't, we invade you.

another reason why iraq is pissed off is probebly because our troops havent left yet. some iraqies want them to stay, becuase they want a change. but it looks as if the majority wants them out. reason why is because we are invaders. we dont belong there. if another countries troops invaded america trying to channge us to their ways, we would be pissed too. if we keep them their the death count become more then what the american civil war was.

anyways, to say we had nothing to do with their outrage is completely....well...american. greatest country in the world my ass.

[Leeloo-Minai]

At 1/3/07 01:33 AM, HogWashSoup wrote:
another reason why iraq is pissed off is probebly because our troops havent left yet.

Yeah, our troops are the ones destabilizing the region to the bane of the new Iraq. Get a fucking job, kid.

[Karzand]

At 1/3/07 01:33 AM, HogWashSoup wrote:

All I have to say is if the Iraqis were more grateful for doing our best to rebuild their infrastructure and defeat the insurgents that keep blowing them up, and cooperated more with Coalation forces then it would be a lot easier to find insurgent weapon stockpiles/IEDs.

greatest country in the world my ass.

As the boys of Southpark said "if you're not rooting for your homteam get the hell out of the stadium"

[HogWashSoup]

iraq was pretty bad before, but the main point is that no one is taking any blame what so ever, not even a microscopic one. we went in there so we had a hand in something.

america never ever takes the blame when something goes wrong, even when it is clearly obvious it is our fault. not saying iraq is our fault. what is happening in iraq looks as if it might have happened no matter what, but we might have sped it up, or made it worse then it would have been.

no one takes the blame here, if any country needs a change its this one. if we want to be a role model country then our leaders must act responisble and admit their mistakes. everyone makes mistakes, its the ones who admit them that seperate the good from the bad. and so for that are very few good ones.

[Leeloo-Minai]

At 1/3/07 02:08 AM, HogWashSoup wrote: iraq was pretty bad before, but the main point is that no one is taking any blame what so ever, not even a microscopic one.

Saddam got hanged and the Baathists are out. Isn't that blame enough for you?

america never ever takes the blame when something goes wrong, even when it is clearly obvious it is our fault.

Fault? So you'd have rather left Saddam and his cronies in power, BECAUSE of their loyalists tenacity. People like you we need less of, for you're the type of paper tiger, elitist snob that EVERYONE hates, not only muslim extremists, but your countrymen alike.

[HogWashSoup]

At 1/3/07 02:28 AM, Leeloo-Minai wrote:

america never ever takes the blame when something goes wrong, even when it is clearly obvious it is our fault.

Fault? So you'd have rather left Saddam and his cronies in power, BECAUSE of their loyalists tenacity. People like you we need less of, for you're the type of paper tiger, elitist snob that EVERYONE hates, not only muslim extremists, but your countrymen alike.

you got me. thats exactly what im saying. should have let saddam have power. let him keep his power so he can cause even more of a mess.

the reason why we went in there was because of weapons of mass distruction. did we find any, no. did we have any proof, no. will we find any, unlikely. it is obvious the president lied about it, yet he doesnt admit it. 9/11, the cia had countless reports of bin ladden going to attack america. they ignored it because they thought they were false. then boom. did they admit having information of it, no. instead of saying that they had information but had thought it was false, they just go and say "we didnt know". well thats fun to hear. an organization made to know everything didnt know about bin-ladden's plan. even when it was brought out that we knew they knew, they stiil dont admit.

its not just iraq, it has been going on for years before iraq.

iraq was going to go into a civil war no matter what. its going to be a long long time before anything becomes balanced over in the middle east. it has been war like for thousands of years and it will stay that way no matter what. sticking our noses will only cause more damnage.

the death toll of american soldeirs is to be blamed by the iraqies AND our president.

the reason why iraq is in chaos is pretty much iraq, but america did have some small small part in it. the fact that we are still in there is pretty much pissing many iraqies off. thats pretty much what america has done bad. invaded a country that we really didnt need to invade. it shouldnt have taken a whole army to get saddam. maybe a few soldiers at least with snipers.

vietnam and iraq are similar. both we didnt need to go into, and both we have/are losing badly. these are countries that are best left alone but still under watch. invasion causes chaos. chaos + chaos doesnt equil order, it just equils more chaos. we had a hand in the chaos, invading them was that hand. what america is basically saying is "we didnt invade them, we liberated them" ok, if we liberated them then why are they killing us? true there are many who wanted to be liberated, but there are many more who liked it the dictatorship way, they are probebly very happy saddam is dead, but that form of government they probebly liked, or didnt like and they dont want their way of life changed. and ofcource america will want iraq to change their way of life. we wiil want the women over ther to have rights and everything. our culture isnt the status-quo of the world, no matter how much america would like it.

america invaded iraq, america shoudl say "yes we invaded iraq, and a very small part of it could be due to that we are still in their land."

doesnt have to be anything big, just enough to acknoledge that we did something that might have sturred up some chaos.

rebuilding iraq is ok, however keeping our troops in the hot spots isnt. its as if in the government's eyes a soldier is nothing more then a pawn in a chess board. one to be sacrificed, even if it is just to see what happens.

we are losing, badly. and when you keep losing and cant win, you pull out. the #1 prioity isnt iraq, its us. each country is responsib for themselves. iraq is going to go into a massive civil war no matter what, and they will probebly go into one again and again. thats just how things are in the middle east. just constant fighting. its pointless to try and stop it because it just wont stop. not now, not any time soon. eventually it will, but not for a long time.

[Leeloo-Minai]

Okay, I'd like to rebut your entire post, but rehashing all the regurgitated material given the opposing P.O.V. is too tedious for my obsessive-compulsive mind to conjure. For that I humbly request actually searching the presidents speeches, as well as Mr Powell's, for their respective opinions on the war in Iraq, the lack of massive amounts of WMDs (not including old bio-weapons). Mr Bush is our president, our leader, and the troops' foremost commander. What he shows is not always to be taken at face value. Please understand that.

At 1/3/07 03:54 AM, HogWashSoup wrote:
we are losing, badly. and when you keep losing and cant win, you pull out. the #1 prioity isnt iraq, its us.

Wrong. The number one priority is, and relatively speaking, has been the top priority since the surrender of the Iraqi armed forces. We aren't their to directly protect US interests per se, but to provide a willing and able overseeing force as we train new police and new Iraqi armed forces to protect themselves so we don't need to.

Guess how many Hussein loyalists made up the former Iraqi army? Guess how many were opponents of Saddam's regime?

Listen, if you believe mere invasion and occupation was our goal from the start, you're severely disenchanted. We want the Iraqis to have the freedom to choose their own destiny, and we won't hesitate to help them achieve that. They NEED to have a security force ready and able to combat insurgents who exist only to destroy what the Iraqis, with our help, have built. Isn't that a noble enough cause for American presence, at least a little longer? Maybe until the delicate infrastructure is strong enough to support the weight it needs to bear for an impoverished peoples?

each country is responsib for themselves. iraq is going to go into a massive civil war no matter what, and they will probebly go into one again and again. thats just how things are in the middle east. just constant fighting. its pointless to try and stop it because it just wont stop. not now, not any time soon. eventually it will, but not for a long time.

So we should keep our noses out of it and let the most violent and ruthless once again gain control and do with it's peoples however it wishes, including the gassing and extermination of those not in favor with that particular regime? Yes, the middle east has been at war for a very long time. Yes, there is sectarian slaughter taking place on a daily basis. WE DON'T LIKE THAT, AND NEITHER DO PEACE-LOVING MIDDLE-EASTERNERS.

Dammit, when a stranger is drowning you gotta help them out of the river and teach them how to swim. In the case of some ME nations, providing water wings isn't a bad idea either.

I'm not ignorant of the view that the middle east should be allowed to consume itself, but we are there now, and like it or not, when the drowning Iraqi's flailed in the water, we took notice and had a closer look. We can't throw them the lifefloat without dragging them onto shore.

God I'm tired..