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At 1/1/07 08:38 PM, MickTheChampion wrote: "Freedom of Speech"? Please America, police my ignorance - what is this "Freedom of Speech"?

You suck.

There you go.

At 12/31/06 03:15 PM, MickTheChampion wrote: Even to the point that it supports insubordinance and blatant attacks on the State?

You dont get it, thats not a news station then, it is calling for a revolution. That is not a comparison and is not a limit on free speech when you are calling for the violent upheavel and destruction of a government.

At 12/31/06 02:23 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Are you saying that such a network would be allowed to broadcast in the States?

Are you sure this Venezulan network has called for the violent destruction of a Chavez led Venezula? Or are you just assuming because I never read that.

Until I see that I think we need some proof of yours to make your comparison any viable. Until then the comparison is bunk.

At 12/31/06 01:07 PM, Begoner wrote: Not even the US is exempt from measures which aim to subvert the media.

Subvert is a tad different from destroying the opposition, if we really want to get nitpicky :P

At 12/31/06 02:06 PM, Begoner wrote: That's mostly because the American people are pro-Israel and such.

Right on. The networks reflect the markets they have to sell their product to. 100% correct. It isnt government interference, it is network and government policy reflecting the bias of the people, that being pro-Israeli. Not that I really think you can be anti-Israeli, but you sure could report on them much harsher than we do now and do it very correctly.

You dont get it, thats not a news station then, it is calling for a revolution. That is not a comparison and is not a limit on free speech when you are calling for the violent upheavel and destruction of a government.

They did not openly air television programmes which called for revolution prior to the April 11 coup attempt. However, after the illegal right-wing coup occurred, RCTV wholeheartedly supported the unlawful government. Although I feel such speech should be allowed by the state, it is understandably "treasonous" and, as such, it shouldn't be surprising that it was taken off the air. It is debatable whether a similar TV station would be subverted by the government in the US; in any case, it wasn't a very extreme action taken and it was not directed against the "opposition" but rather the criminals who wanted an authoritarian overthrow of the state.

There were much stronger ties between RCTV's activities and the coup than between Iraq and international terrorism; if one was enough to justify a war, it would be hypocritical to say that the other cannot be used to justify the shutting down of a television station.

At 12/31/06 03:05 PM, MickTheChampion wrote:

At 12/31/06 02:06 PM, Begoner wrote: even if the government granted it permission to broadcast its message.

Which it wouldn't, especially not a nation that's increasingly being considered an enemy.

Bullshit. The USA is not trully an enemy of leftism/communism. Proof of it is the fact that the USA trades with China.

Also USA enjoys some oil concessions in Venezuela so the USA wont simply ditch all of this like that.

And in the end chavez continues to seem to be an american puppet.

At 1/2/07 02:13 AM, Demosthenez wrote:

At 12/31/06 02:23 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Are you saying that such a network would be allowed to broadcast in the States?

Are you sure this Venezulan network has called for the violent destruction of a Chavez led Venezula? Or are you just assuming because I never read that.

Until I see that I think we need some proof of yours to make your comparison any viable. Until then the comparison is bunk.

I don't know whether the network has made any direct statements regarding overthrowing Chávez, but I know they were heavily involved in the 2002 coup attempt, trying to defame pro-Chávez side. They only showed brief parts of the coup attempt, usually in situations where the actions of pro-Chávez troops could be misinterpreted and seen offensive. For instance, during the coup, the network showed footage of Chávez supporters firing guns, and claimed that these people were shooting at innocent demonstrators. However, no demonstrators were shown in the frame and later it was revealed that there weren't any on the street they were firing at. The men said they were returning fire against revolutionary snipers.

I think that qualifies as consipiring against that state. The network clearly approved of the violent revolution, whether they admitted it or not.

All those South American countries in the 60s and 70s had hardline dictatorships like Argentina which crushed any political opponents. America didn't care then because these countries' foreign policy favoured them and they were friendly. This isn't about morals, it's about interests.

Of course if Bush did something like this. Well, we know how the democrats would be up in a tissy fit (not that that's different from how they are now).

At 1/3/07 01:25 PM, MickTheChampion wrote:
You let your right-wing allies away with much more in the past, let's not forget certain allies of yours were behind the murders of four American nuns, and your state shrugged it off saying they were communist sympathisers!

There is one or two small details you are missing about me.

1) I am not American.

2) I am neither left-wing nor right-wing. Unbelievable? Not quite, I am more like the person who is tired oof the lies spread by politicians, all of them, from all sides. You are fooling yourself if you really think that any politician gives a shit about your wellbeing (either left-winger or right-winger)

Yeah the USA did a lot of shit against leftists in South America a while back, mostly to halt Soviet influence. Now that Sovients aren't there, USA is just bluffing. I have even heard a theory that the USA and Chavez are not even enemies, just putting up a show, so that Muslim extremists dont decide to set the Venezuelan refineries on fire, and thus guarantee safe oil supply for the USA. In the end, Venezuela continues to give oil concessions to the USA, so its all bullshit.

At 1/3/07 04:14 PM, MickTheChampion wrote:
You're either a paranoid nutter or a naive child; either way I'm not arguing with you.

Or maybe you are not arguing with me because you are too moronic to realize that it isn't Bush Vs. the rest, but rather a well made up conspiracy that involves people from all sides (right-wingers and left-wingers), all ready to make plenty of money off the simplistic opinions from people such as you.

I have no reason to believe Chavez is genuinely against Bush, because in the end, Chavez always ends up being condescendent with the USA. A true enemy of the USA would try to hinder it at every corner, in every possible way.

Any of you guys watch that video where Bush Senior calls Chavez an asshole?

At 1/4/07 02:33 PM, MickTheChampion wrote:
I don't think Chávez has a genuine desire to hurt your average ten-a-penny Working Class American citizen, I do however, believe that he is a staunch opponent of U.S Imperialism - hence making him a bit of a thorn in the backside of America.

Except that Chavez doesn't do anything to stop USA imperialism, other than sell it oil and give oil concessions to Washington. Doesn't look like quite an oppositor, does he?

At 1/4/07 02:33 PM, MickTheChampion wrote:
Lads, you want to see what happens when a 15 year old sees a documentary about the illuminati?

Doesn't look like you believe in secret societies, do you? Too bad, thats what they want, precisely. How else do you explain that, no matter how hard someone studies, no matter how hard someone works, that such person will almost never achieve anything in life? How do you explain that it takes 50 years for someone to pay for a shitty dark small apartment, while there are suddenly entire groups buying entire areas within days?

That is the way society is. There is a system, that has decided that you will always be a simple employee at some company, earning a fixed salary, who will get a credit card, and charge it five times what you earn, so you can never pay it, and effectively become a slave of society. Its the system. The secret societies see benefit in this, because such a person can never be a danger for them.

No matter how hard you study, or how hard you work. You won't get far in society.

Yes, I believe in secret societies. While I have heard about the Illuminati, I have never read about them. I am reading about a group called "Bilderberg Club", which seems to control "The System".

And in my opinion, to split the world in leftists or rightists is far, far too simple. Especially since almost all politicians are friends of each other, in the end, and all making money from it.

At 1/4/07 03:27 PM, Dalaran2007 wrote: Except that Chavez doesn't do anything to stop USA imperialism, other than sell it oil and give oil concessions to Washington. Doesn't look like quite an oppositor, does he?

What is he supposed to do, attack them and get his country destroyed?

At 1/4/07 03:35 PM, Dalaran2007 wrote: No matter how hard you study, or how hard you work. You won't get far in society.

Haha mate, you're so paranoid it's incredible With all these 'secret societies' out to screw you. Mostly it's people with money who get far in society. That's still screwed up, but no one's out to make things miserable for you.

At 1/4/07 04:59 PM, Britkid wrote: Mostly it's people with money who get far in society.

Funny thing is, they were already far in the first place. LOL.

At 1/4/07 04:59 PM, Britkid wrote:
What is he supposed to do, attack them and get his country destroyed?

Nope, but he should not sell them the oil, or if so, should increase the price, or something. Also, he should nationalize ALL oil fields/refineries. That is, no concessions. All oil fields property of the Venezuelan Revolution solely. Thats how a genuine rival should behave, not making life easy for his opponent, at all.

God, I freaking hate Hugo Chavez.

Let me put this in perspective. I talk to someone from Venezuala online and he hates Hugo Chavez with a passion.

The fact that he came to the US and made comments about our president only makes him a big prick. He only thinks he's able to get away with it because his country has oil.

At 12/31/06 02:12 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: No more than a few weeks ago there were imbeciles all over BBS glorifying Hugo Chavez.

There's retarted people on the NG BBS? NO WAI!

Hugo Chavez, like most Socialist leaders, is a dictator.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/0 4/14/venezuela/index.html

bush and his people had an inside man with fox and basically control them, also the government funds almost all of the news station.... hmmm i wonder if theyd be willing to critisize and get the funds stripped away... basically thats why the criticism on the government is kept at a minimum

Thanks Cellardoor, this shows me that Begoner really is a hypocrite, despite me earlier opions. Ugh....the good he has done for his country...won't be surprised if he becomes next Hitler.

you know something... i was born in venezuela (it usaed to be a nice country) but now i'd like nothing better than to see Chavez's head on a pike in front of the white house! so i piss on it... i HATE chavez and what he has done to my former country... i hope he dies a slow and painful death... we should ask israel to assasinate him... for doing "businiess" with iran or something... ANYTHING to get rid of chavez.

At 1/3/07 09:58 AM, Dalaran2007 wrote:
Bullshit. The USA is not trully an enemy of leftism/communism. Proof of it is the fact that the USA trades with China.

You would call China a leftist state? Hong Kong is like a model for true free-market capitalism.

Are you calling China a rightist state? I can tell you they are sure as hell are more left then they are right.

America has done a lot of moving on since the Cold War. The old enemy (communism) has been replaced with a new enemy (terrorism)

You don't get it (lolz patronise) the channel Chavez shut down was a fucking U.S funded abomination - it basically did call for a revolution. It supported a fucking U.S coup against a democratically elected government.

Wow Mick, hate to think you are pulling false information out of your ass with no proof. Can you prove anything you just said in that quote?

i have a better question- who cares about cellar door6?

y does no one say that there are no oppositional parties in America except the democrats/ republicans

At 3/26/07 01:47 AM, Cheekyvincent wrote: i have a better question- who cares about cellar door6?

How pathetic can you possibly be?

"cellardoor6 completely revealed something that is entirely relevant and a good thing to know, but lets just ignore it and attack him personally to try and ignore it"

Well...as communist dictators go, he's not a bad one lol. Also, he's slightly better to live under than your average corrupt, oppressive south american government. I'm going to Ecuador in the summer, and they are at it too :S. But communist dictators never harmed no-one....right?

It takes a few minutes before it actually gets in to the real documentary and contrary to what it says at the start it was not made by the Venezuelan Government. I can also assure you that it is authentic (unlike a lot of stuff on the internet) as I watched it when it was first shown on TV. If you look at the author's commentary it gives you the full story behind it and links to the next in the series. I suggest you watch all of the parts considering this is a first-hand account with no overt political bias (as in what would you expect the Irish to say?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gRUrQCTtNI

At 3/26/07 10:51 AM, Slizor wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gRUrQCTtNI

I wouldn't consider that documentary to be completely devoid of bias. It pushes perhaps a little too hard to paint an "oligarchs vs. the people" world going on.

However, yeah, it's accurate on many things. Freedom of speech, expression, press and so on has grown significatively under Chávez's rule, and he faces constant criticism from pretty much every media source that is not state-owned, and there's several of those.

Maybe it would help if there was a more recent source, since there's quite a few things that have changed in the Venezuelan scenario in the last 5 years.