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It has occured to me many times as I walk past the clinic and see children...I can't even call them children. They're fifteen and sixteen years old, capable of independent thought and logical reasoning, able in every way to think for themselves, yet taking medication. Small, round pills and oblong gel-filled capsules containing, to name a few: Aderol, Ritalin, and Prozac.

I am a tolerant man. I can see that some of these people, the ones who have trouble staying in their seat or holding onto a pencil more than an hour before it's been chewed to the point of uselessness, require these medications to keep them in control of their own bodies. However, I notice more and more that for every person who actually needs medication to keep themselves going properly, many, many more are being given medication for no purpose. But there is a purpose: parents.

Now, if you act up, parents will ship you off to a psychologist, buy every medication they can to calm you down, and generally give up on any traditional form of discipline (i.e. smacking you in your disruptive head) so that they won't have to be actual parents. Ritalin is prescribed far too often to children who have parents too lazy to take the time and discipline their child. Kid jumping on the bed? He must have Attention Deficit Disorder. Your child is hyper after buying him a sundae? Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.

I want to know your views on this; on parents who do everything to get around being actual parents, including dosing their children on needless drugs. In the tradition of all good Politics Crew debaters, I will withhold my own until I have heard several others.

Keep it clean, kids, or I'll put you on ritalin.

It's all a part of our society's 'a pill to cure everything' mindset

It used to be that people had what were known as character traits but now the drug companies have made a fortune producing pills that will convert us into a blissful sea of sameness.

Remember when people used to deal with their problems instead of popping pills?

Nahhhh, me neither.

im going to have to say... what happened to like smackin ur kids?

i mean im not talkin about abusing them, but they act out, slap them on the ass...

but no give them a pill, thats the answer to everything.... just like in brave new world by aldous huxley... yeah the world is so damn fucked...

At 4/13/03 01:49 AM, evilkate wrote:

At 4/13/03 01:47 AM, implodinggoat wrote: Remember when people used to deal with their problems instead of popping pills?

Nahhhh, me neither.

Chemical imbalances cannot always be dealt with without the assistance of medications. If you have never had that problem, you're not in a position to tell someone MENTALLY ILL to "deal with their problems".

but its one thing to have a mental problem... its entirely different to be giving ur 4 year old ritalin... i mean hell part of being a 4 year is being hyper...

I need some asprin.

At 4/13/03 01:49 AM, evilkate wrote: Chemical imbalances cannot always be dealt with without the assistance of medications. If you have never had that problem, you're not in a position to tell someone MENTALLY ILL to "deal with their problems".

I have clinical depression and I don't take any medications because I feel that I should deal with my problems myself.

At 4/13/03 02:08 AM, evilkate wrote: A lot of people feel like that. I don't know of anyone who enjoys having to take pills everyday for the rest of their life. I don't. It's common for someone who needs medication to be against its use.

I feel like giving in some times and getting myself some Prozac. But I tend to believe that one should always face adversity not hide from it. My bi polar tendencies are part of who I am.....to take drugs to change that would be a betrayal of my self.

At 4/13/03 02:23 AM, evilkate wrote: Taking drugs does not change it though. It just makes it more manageable. And I don't understand how living life being miserable is being loyal to oneself.

he's doing it on his terms... not some pills...

although bi-polar tend to annoy me... i dont get it... i mean how can u go from fine and dandy 1 minute... and 10 minutes later be my life sucks???

sometimes i honestly think just slapping people a couple times would get the job done...

At 4/13/03 03:40 AM, evilkate wrote: Violence solves nothing. It just prolongs the problem and/or leads to more violence.

dammit... im arguing FOR hitting people... damn me and my not thinking things through...

And I think he's more afraid of losing control rather than being in control. Pills do not affect personality. They affect mood. People are stubborn when it comes to their own mental health.

i agree with ya here...

At 4/13/03 03:18 AM, karasz wrote:

At 4/13/03 02:23 AM, evilkate wrote:

although bi-polar tend to annoy me... i dont get it... i mean how can u go from fine and dandy 1 minute... and 10 minutes later be my life sucks???

I know a lot of teenagers who are "bi-polar". Also, the majority who say this also listen to Weezer, wear horn rimmed glasses, and cut their jeans. Too many people like being angsty just for the trend. Sort of like people who are bi-sexual just because it's the "cool" thing. Bad bisexuals.

At 4/13/03 01:36 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: It has occured to me many times as I walk past the clinic and see children...

This is all part of the current trend of irresponsiblity, the feeling that "its not my fault", that is destroying America and was spawned in the 60s. Today, if you don't have time to raise kids, you don't make time, you ship them off to 24 hr. daycare to let someone else raise them. If they get bad grades, its the teacher's fault. If they dommit a crime, its society's fault. If they're a bit hyper, you put them on powerful, easily-prescribed drugs that alter your brain chemistry and physiology in ways that we don't even completely understand to solve problems that we don't understand and may or may not even be there!!

It's all part of a generation that has been raised on liberal crap that has degraded our culture to the core. When conservative values of individual responsiblity and self-reliance take hold again, the culture will grow better.

i think that this view of parenting is stupid but i have nbever heard of it before. getting your kids drugs here in the UK is nigh-on impossible. you have to be on the verge of suicide before they give you anti-depression thingys. just being 'a bit down' as you seem to put it is not cause for 2 diamazipams in the morning and one after tea.

this sounds absolutely mad. i think that in the USA (i set out to offend only the people i talk about) there are a little sect of people who are getting more and more detached from real life. this must be the case. over the last six months, i have seen some quite disturbing documentaries from the BBC on youth culture, gun control, parenting and other topics like that.

i have been really shocked by what i have seen. kids as young as 14 were getting guns with fake ID's, coppers werent taking them off the kids when they found out the age. i even saw an idvert for thongs in the USA with a cherry and the words 'Eat Me' on the front. harmless enough, but these were for five year olds.

now that i think about it, i really do hope it is a strance sect of people who have become slightly detached form reality, because i would hate to think of an entire country of people like this.

This is something that hits very close to home for me.

Chemical balance in the brain, and a brain that is -unbalanced-, can cause all sorts of behavioral and emotional problems.

That does not mean that giving the blanket diagnosis of 'chemical imbalance' to every upset youngster is the answer.

Let me put it this way.

I'm a 25 year old female that's been through all SORTS of mental and emotional instabilities, and those were honest chemical imbalances and clinical problems. Because of this, when I see teens online that are having emotional trouble, I talk with them a little, try to see where they're coming from, and give them the best advice I can. After all, I'd have wanted the same thing for myself had I had access to the internet.

This is the BIGGEST problem I see: teenagers assuming they're depressed, and the people around them being enablers.

The truth is, many of these kids on pills don't know what true depression is. How many people out there are old enough to remember puberty and teen-years WITHOUT medication? Fuck yes, it was hard! Your body's going through changes, you're discovering the opposite sex, you're learning, growing...holy shit, that's gotta be the most confusing time of your life!

Does this require medication that messed with the uptake of seratonin? Or other mood-enhancing-or-stabilizing pharmeseuticals?

NO NO NO! A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!

I've dealt with clinical depression and bipolar disorder since before I was even a teenager. It was a true medical problem for me. And still...I've learned to deal with it -without- medication. I went through therapy and learned the tools I needed to keep myself healthy and up.

There are some instances where medication is needed, yes. I used to be a huge advocate of the unwritten "Give em pills!" campaign. I can't be anymore, because I've lived a live doped up on prescriptions that made my hair fall out, made me a zombie, made me nothing but a shell...all in the name of 'mental health'.

Medications should be a last resort. Teenagers will get depressed. That's called puberty.

Children will be hyper. That's called being a goddamned KID.

Parents need to get more involved instead of thinking modern medicine can solve every little thing for them.

To evilkate: no one is calling your mother a bad parent. I'm sure that she's made some bad choices for you, just like every parent does. NO PARENT IS PERFECT. I'm not sure if I caught this correctly, but if she put you on medication, or if YOU feel like you needed medication, then I'm sure you did. But there's too many parents that feel that's their only option.

There's always the option of therapy. Therapy without medication can work.

Medication without therapy WILL NOT WORK ON A LONG TERM BASIS.

I'm living proof of that.

If you'd like to know more of -how- I've done it without medication, I can help whoever asks. I just don't want to psychobabble here. *lol* Well. Any more than I already have.

This is all part of the current trend of irresponsiblity, the feeling that "its not my fault", that is destroying America and was spawned in the 60s. Today, if you don't have time to raise kids, you don't make time, you ship them off to 24 hr. daycare to let someone else raise them. If they get bad grades, its the teacher's fault. If they dommit a crime, its society's fault. If they're a bit hyper, you put them on powerful, easily-prescribed drugs that alter your brain chemistry and physiology in ways that we don't even completely understand to solve problems that we don't understand and may or may not even be there!!

Yep, that's what Capitalism does. People trying to sell you things everywhere so they just lie.
"It's not your fault you're a bad parent, you kid has a problem.take these drugs, not only will that help out the pharmaceutacal companies, it will help out my private practice too!"
"It's not your fault your kids are fat, it's the companies fault, we'll sue them!"

When conservative values of individual responsiblity and self-reliance take hold again, the culture will grow better.

Ah, the old "society does not exist".

At 4/13/03 07:07 AM, Slizor wrote: Yep, that's what Capitalism does. People trying to sell you things everywhere so they just lie.
"It's not your fault you're a bad parent, you kid has a problem.take these drugs, not only will that help out the pharmaceutacal companies, it will help out my private practice too!"
"It's not your fault your kids are fat, it's the companies fault, we'll sue them!"

When life is treating you bad and you're about to end it all, drink some Victory Gin and have a Victory stick to douse these flaming emotions away.

When conservative values of individual responsiblity and self-reliance take hold again, the culture will grow better.

Ah, the old "society does not exist".

That's what I find odd about the term conservative when it refers to moral behaviors and the past. Conservatives want to return to a nonexistent past when society upheld their views and ideals. Strange...strange...

Prozac, Luvox, Celexa, Effexor, Wellbutrin, etc. are depression medications (I'm sure you're all aware) and really shouldn't be classified along with ritalin, and it's brothers.
Though they both work on similar principals, the things they treat and the problems of the people they treat are so different that it is an affront to both types to associate them with each other.
I've been on a number of meds. before, but I haven't found any signifigant difference, and I really don't have particularly strong opinions on the subject.
It should simply be the choice of the involved person(s).
I think it is the fault of parents that their children "are hyper". (You know what I mean).
From an early age, parents need to set guidlines for the child, and show them the proper way to act.
You all remember the kid who would eat a 2 lb bag of sugar for lunch and run around the school naked (to a lesser extent).
That's because the parents never reined in their kid enough.
I'm a bit groggy this morning (afternoon almost) so cut me some slack.

At 4/13/03 03:18 AM, karasz wrote: sometimes i honestly think just slapping people a couple times would get the job done...

That was the common practice in the 1800's... They're strategy was to just slap it out of them, or scare or drown or burn or cut or drill holes and let out the evil spirits. Obviously, none of them worked, and most of the time the people with disorders, that are managable, who are still human beings, were killed or killed themselves. It was either that or stay locked up for the rest of your life. Put yourself in that position. Try to imagine yourself as an 19th century bipolar teenager trying to convince a panel of highly respected "doctors" who believe they are the supreme arbiters of the sublime, telling them you just have a "problem" and do not deserve to be locked up for the rest of your life. Hard enough? Then try it without any of your manic-depressive tendencies to flare up... you could consider yourself screwed.

I really don't believe hitting a kid is acceptable.
I was raised into a perfectly fine person without ever being hit. The parent should be close enough with the child that the parent's dissapointment is punishment enough.

At 4/13/03 01:49 AM, evilkate wrote:

Chemical imbalances cannot always be dealt with without the assistance of medications. If you have never had that problem, you're not in a position to tell someone MENTALLY ILL to "deal with their problems".

Chemical inbalances can ALWAYS be dealt with without medication. The body makes it's own chamicals and the amount of those chemicals that are made depends on your surrounding environment, severe stress can cause an absece of ceratonin, enorphins, and dopamine. If you have loving parents and a reasonably stable life than your body wont have much of these "chemical inbalances".

Two things-

It's not always possible to lead a "stable life with loving parents".

It's spelled Seratonin.

At 4/13/03 01:17 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: I really don't believe hitting a kid is acceptable.
I was raised into a perfectly fine person without ever being hit. The parent should be close enough with the child that the parent's dissapointment is punishment enough.

Yeah, I was never smacked around either, and things turned out fine. I just presented the spanking your kids theory because that's what people most commonly associate as the alternative to pills. Jesus, by any standards, I should have been on ritalin when I was in 3rd grade. However, my parents just figured "Let him be a kid and be creative and weird."

So I drew my comic books (which my third grade teacher said were signs of slipping away from reality. That "Boogerman" wasn't healthy)

I wrote my stories (another sign of slipping away)

And made my homemade little 3rd grade movies (which my teacher forced me to bring in to show that I was hyperactive)

I wonder what she thinks now that I have two illustration scholarships, one from Project-X for filmmaking, and a few in politics. Blow it out your ass, teacher lady. Different is what this country is about.

Isn't it illegal to hit your kids in canada?

At 4/13/03 07:07 AM, Slizor wrote:
Yep, that's what Capitalism does. People trying to sell you things everywhere so they just lie.
"It's not your fault you're a bad parent, you kid has a problem.take these drugs, not only will that help out the pharmaceutacal companies, it will help out my private practice too!"
"It's not your fault your kids are fat, it's the companies fault, we'll sue them!"

Hmmmm this is humorous.....you are blaming capitalism for people not taking responsibility for themselves when the entire theory behind commmunism is that one should not have to take responsibility for ones actions. "Its not my fault that I'm an uneducated lazy slob, the government should take care of me!"

Do you not even see your own hypocrisy?

i was only smacked on the hand whenever i was putting myself in danger. It worked out fine and no physical or mental damage was done.

However, drugs concern me only in the matter that they sheath the problem of certain disorders and make it difficult for the child to see his or her own dysfunctional behavior. If the child does not understand the problem, he or she does cannot make the decision to change. The real problem lies when the child consciously refuses to fix the problem(at least those that stem from attitudes and not genetics)

well, i'm not a parent.
Anyway, i guess if a person wants to be a parent. he or she should be mature and should think the responsibilities, discipline, enthical teaching, scarifices, burden of having a children. not forgetting in creating a nurturing environment for the kids to grow up to become a good and successful citizen.

If you never do it in a good way. the kid turns bad. you have the total responsibilty.

In S'pore, we fines or jails the parents when his or her offsprings becomes a nuisance to the society which means breaking the law.

Just like a employer running an office, no superior will end up caning their subordinates. they treated them as adults.

i guess parents should deal with their children more maturely when her children reach the age of maturity.

if the children turns bad. i guess the parents should have the duty to spot the children and help them to change before they become worse and break the law.

(the correct way of solving a problem)

When there's problem, we should not ignore it or push blame. instead we must quickly find a solution to solve the problem.

if the problem is too big, which involve a huge number of ppl to participate
or
the problem has concerned your loved ones but not you or
the problem will eventually comes to you.

then the solution for these above conditions is to make the person who's at fault to understand the situation in an encouraging way and help to change.

that's the biblical way.

However, the problem is still not that easy to solve.

it will be easy, provided

there's no miscommunication

and the person who at fault is willing to change. this has to depend whther he or she is a stubborn fellow or not.

if that person is a stubborn ass, i guess anyone who is mature and wise enough in that particular group should take up the initative to tackle the issues.

to prevent the problem from resurfacing,

one should make anyone in that particular group to
let them understand the issue and set up a loving and mature environment in that particular group so that in future, there will be no chaos when the trouble is created or discovered among that particular group.

NOTE:- that particular group can meant anything. be it, in a family or in a government.

At 4/13/03 03:31 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: Isn't it illegal to hit your kids in canada?

Well... It kind of depends when you mean "to hit." The laws on that kind of thing is fairly unclear. Spanking with a bare hand really doesn't count, I don't think.

At 4/13/03 03:59 AM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 4/13/03 01:36 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: It has occured to me many times as I walk past the clinic and see children...

This is all part of the current trend of irresponsiblity, the feeling that "its not my fault", that is destroying America and was spawned in the 60s. Today, if you don't have time to raise kids, you don't make time, you ship them off to 24 hr. daycare to let someone else raise them. If they get bad grades, its the teacher's fault. If they dommit a crime, its society's fault. If they're a bit hyper, you put them on powerful, easily-prescribed drugs that alter your brain chemistry and physiology in ways that we don't even completely understand to solve problems that we don't understand and may or may not even be there!!

It's all part of a generation that has been raised on liberal crap that has degraded our culture to the core. When conservative values of individual responsiblity and self-reliance take hold again, the culture will grow better.

And the scary thing is, those ideas and "liberal crap" are being passed on to the children of this generation. Everyday, I'm seeing children who forget to do their homework, and say that "it's not my fault!" and make some lameassed excuse that *insert object/person* distracted me! And when they get their grades, "The teacher's too mean! She hates me! It's not my fault!"

Looking forward at the future, I wonder: Just how screwed over are we?