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At 12/21/06 01:39 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

Christmas is NOT A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY. There is historical proof that it's not christian, it wasn't created by the church, it was created by the pagans, as a day to worship the sun and it's return

Yeah, the pagans did have a winter equinox festival, but it sure as hell wasn't called Christmas. However, the actual holiday called 'Christmas' is recognized as celebrating the birth of Jesus. While you may not understand the difference between his birth and birthday, they are completely sperate things.

You're an idiot, you have no proof of when Jesus's birthday is, and I specifically stated, that no one has to call it christmas, to celebrate it.

Christmas is a christian name for a pagan holiday, what's your point?

I didn't say I had proof, nor do I need it to celebrate his actual birth. I am celebrating the fact that he was born, so I really couldn't give a shit when it actually was. Seeing as how almost all people celebrate his birth around December 25th, I guess I should celebrate with them instead of looking like a dumbass like you.

I do celebrate Christmas, but not as the birth of Christ, because it's not a Christian holiday.

So you're saying that the people who are Christians that celebrate Christmas are worshipping some non-existent sun god instead of the birth of Jesus?

No, I'm saying that they're celebrating a holiday that was ORIGINALLY meant to worship a sun god, I'm just saying it's not Christian, that's it.

So a holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus isn't Christian? That logic is brilliant.

*slaps forhead* You can celebrate Christmas in any way you please, you can celebrate it as the birth of Christ, you can celebrate it as Moses's freeing of the Jewish slaves, you can celebrate it as the birthday of the prophet Muhammad, but that still doens't change the fact that it was originally meant to celebrate the return of the Sun God.

At 12/21/06 02:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

but that still doens't change the fact that it was originally meant to celebrate the return of the Sun God.

And the return of the holy Go bots. Holding lumps of cheese and sandwiches.

At 12/20/06 10:44 PM, Dre-Man wrote: And while you're at it, give me the exact date of Jesus's birth, the year, month, and day, go ahead. And give me proof too.

The date of birth is not needed to celebrate the event itself.

Also I challenge you: where, I wonder, did the name of this holiday originate?

At 12/21/06 02:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: *slaps forhead* You can celebrate Christmas in any way you please, you can celebrate it as the birth of Christ, you can celebrate it as Moses's freeing of the Jewish slaves, you can celebrate it as the birthday of the prophet Muhammad, but that still doens't change the fact that it was originally meant to celebrate the return of the Sun God.

So basically you're whining because you're trying to teach people something that they already know. Wow.

At 12/21/06 01:50 PM, Dre-Man wrote: You're an idiot, you have no proof of when Jesus's birthday is, and I specifically stated, that no one has to call it christmas, to celebrate it.

Christmas is a christian name for a pagan holiday, what's your point?

Another attempt at breaking down what should be a very simple concept:

The Bible does not say on what day Christ was born. HOWEVER, if you accept the Gospel account of the Star of Bethlehem; there is astronomical (you know: science) evidence/models that such a star appeared in the Middle East (ME) sky on April 17, 6 BCE. So if you belive the Bible is literal fact, then we have scientific evidence that his date of birth was on April 17, 6.

Furthermore, early Christian attempts at putting together a celebration of his birth had these religious feasts in April, March, February and then 6 January. Then early Christians in Rome decided to move the feast (which they were celebrating BEFORE moving it to December 25) to coincide with the birth feast of the Sun God that the then Roman Emperor was worshipping to make it more palatable to the Romans for a variety of reasons.

Now our point is you keep yelling: CHRISTMAS IS NOT A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY and calling many of us ignorant when you cannot grasp a simple point. Even though we celebrate Christ's birth on December 25, what had previously been a pagan feast day, we are still celebrating Christ's birth! The Roman Sun God is a relic of history! But CHRISTmas is a celebration of Christ's birth and therefore HAS BECOME a CHRISTIAN holiday!

However, I will say that we live in a country that has freedom of religion and therefore people may celebrate December 25 as a traditional, cultural but secular holiday or as a bith of an ancient Sun God or whatever! However, Christmas is a Christian holiday that celebrates the birth (not the birthday) of our Messiah.

At 12/22/06 02:40 PM, TheMason wrote: Then early Christians in Rome decided to move the feast (which they were celebrating BEFORE moving it to December 25) to coincide with the birth feast of the Sun God that the then Roman Emperor was worshipping to make it more palatable to the Romans for a variety of reasons.

Actually, that date is not so much important as the date of a Roman festival, but because it was the winter solstice under the Julian system of dates. Under the Gregorian system, which we now use, December 25th is no longer that same date.

At 12/22/06 03:18 PM, Draconias wrote:

At 12/22/06 02:40 PM, TheMason wrote: Then early Christians in Rome decided to move the feast (which they were celebrating BEFORE moving it to December 25) to coincide with the birth feast of the Sun God that the then Roman Emperor was worshipping to make it more palatable to the Romans for a variety of reasons.

Actually, that date is not so much important as the date of a Roman festival, but because it was the winter solstice under the Julian system of dates. Under the Gregorian system, which we now use, December 25th is no longer that same date.

Actually the reason it was moved to this date was the Christians were trying to say: "Look, our Messiah was born on the same day as your Sun God." Now maybe the Romans who worshiped whatever Sun God it was moved it to coincide with the solstice to make the Sun God religion more palpable with the rest of Roman society; but the reason the Christians moved the date was not about the solstice.

But you do bring up a good point. I wonder just how much Dre-Man knows about how the calendar has been moved around!

who care! it a comercial holliday... btw im atheist.

merry christmas

OK IVE HEARD ENOUGH! Im going to tell you why christmas is on Dec. 25 and has nothing to do with christian beliefs. A long time ago when The roman empire finally conquered Greece the greecian people had a tradition of celebrating the winter solstice on DEC 25! SO that it would be easier for the greeks to convert to the christin realigion that was beeing forced on them the Roman empire decided to start their own hliday on DEC 25. The estemate for christs birth is actualy somtime between april and june becuase this is the typical time period in which the ancient arabian countries would perform their census. BOOM there you go.

It doesnt matter weather its religious or not.

All that matters are the presents and the cash!

If I have those two things you can strap lights with jesus have a coffee with santa on my roof and I wouldnt give a fuck.

At 12/22/06 10:26 PM, ThorKingOfTheVikings wrote: OK IVE HEARD ENOUGH! Im going to tell you why christmas is on Dec. 25 and has nothing to do with christian beliefs. A long time ago when The roman empire finally conquered Greece the greecian people had a tradition of celebrating the winter solstice on DEC 25! SO that it would be easier for the greeks to convert to the christin realigion that was beeing forced on them the Roman empire decided to start their own hliday on DEC 25. The estemate for christs birth is actualy somtime between april and june becuase this is the typical time period in which the ancient arabian countries would perform their census. BOOM there you go.

HOLY FUCK! YOU TOLD US SOMETHING "NEW"!*

*new as in, it's been fucking repeated several times in this thread, dumbass. I mean, geez, bother to read the ENTIRE THREAD before posting, why don't ya?

Anyone who thinks that Christmas doesn't have a Jesus theme (and still celebrates Christmas) should be punished to read the entire Bible (Catholic version) without any bathroom breaks or eating or drinking.

CHRISTmas. is the name of it. Jews should just stick to Hanukkah. Jews are basically saying if they celebrate it and does not have any Christian family, "I'm celebrating a holiday about a guy's birth but we kill him when he's 33!"

Lets make Ramadan and Hanukkah a free for all holiday! Candle Claus will burn through the door and put gifts in the Hanukkah Bush!

Damn it why can't people just stick to their own holidays?

Sometimes because of blended families? I have Jewish relatives who celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas, because of their mixed heritage.

I said also have Christian family. But I know this all Jewish family who has a decorated Christmas Tree!

the last guy i saw saying ITS NOT CRISTMAS ITS HOLIDAYS! i wanted to punch in the face

i heard a jewish man sued an airport becuase there were no monoras only tree

DEAL WITH IT YOU HAVE YOUR RELIGION I HAVE MYNE!!!!

i think christmas is actually a christian holiday christmas is an annual holiday that marks the traditional birthdate of Jesus of Nazareth (even if jesus didnt actually born on this day)

Christmas was started when a bunch of drunk roma guys used too get together once a year and give eachother gifts, get drunk, and have sex with eachother. The idea of santa clause was sparked from a man who was rich and lived in nepaul who lived nextdoor too a poor family and used too give them gifts. Jesus was not actually born on christmas day either. They chose the end of the year because it would be more easy too have it then. Jesus was actually born in like febuary on the roman calendar. Christmas turned into this thing because most people hundreds of years ago only had their family, and a goliday was an excuse for them too be with their whole family and christmas turned into a holiday like this, but nowadays it is you go out christmas shopping and angry old fucking ladys hit you with their carts and cut you off in traffic.

All your base r belong 2 us

At 12/20/06 10:44 PM, Dre-Man wrote:
The Bible says NOTHING about December 25th being Jesus's birthday, you're uninformed, you don't know about the history of the absorbtion of the pagan holidays into christianity.

It is true that alot of paganism was mixed with ROMAN CATHOLICISM, but has no paralells with the Bible (True Christianity). You've made this case for me, since you admit (and I agree) the Bible says nothing about December 25th.

Give me a verse in the Bible that tells Christians to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus Christ, give me one, go ahead.

That sounds alittle absurd.
Does one have to be 'told' to celebrate New Years? No. Why? Because everyone knows there is a very good reason to celebrate already!
A Christian doesn't have to be told to celebrate the Lord's birth. I do it alot, and not just on Christmas either.

And while you're at it, give me the exact date of Jesus's birth, the year, month, and day, go ahead. And give me proof too.

While you have given no proof for your 'copy cat' theory, it seems very arrogant of you to demand such proof. But oh well. To find the date you have to do a careful reading of the Bible, and know alittle of Roman history.
Tertullian (achurch leader and historian) said that the birth of Jesus was 41 years after Augustus began his rule, and that Augustus died 15 years after the birth of Jesus. The actual date of the death of Augustus Caesar was August 19, 14 AD. It is interesting to note that Tertullian also said that Jesus was born 28 years after the death of Cleopatra who died in 30 BC.
Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, was a priest “of the course of Abia (Abijah)” according to Luke 1:5. Now, there are 24 courses (divisions) of priests according to I Chronicles 24. Abijah’s course (division) was the 8th course among the 24 courses. When the Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Roman Governor Titus on August 5, 70 AD, the first course of priests had just taken office. By tracing back carefully, the 8th course would have ended their duties on July 13, 3 BC. The birth of John the Baptist would be 280 days later - around April 19-20, 2 BC (which, interestingly, was Passover that year!). The birth of Yeshua (Jesus) would have been six months later (Luke 1:36) which would place it in the fall of 2 BC.

Of course, there is alot more information than this, but this is roughly all I remember at the moment. So if I remeber correctly this puts the date of Jesus' birth probably September 29th, 2 BC.
The old Christmas spirit is gone, so it really doesn't matter if Christmas isa pagan holiday or whatever. I'll celebrate Jesus birth every day of the year.

to dre-man, Dec. 25 is not Jesus' birthday, no one knows when it is, but Christmas is the day to celebrate it, Christmas was formed when the Christians conquered the pagan lands and they took the idea of a good soul giving gifts to people and mixed it in with celebrating Jesus' birth to please both pagans and christians

At 12/24/06 09:27 PM, Lost-Thought wrote: to dre-man, Dec. 25 is not Jesus' birthday,

Dre-man is an idoit probably a member of the fred phelps family.

After going through the previous posts & being that I'm not a religious person in that I believe all organised religions are deeply flawed.
I just wanted to wish you all, the Happiest of Holidays, and a sincere Best wishes for you and yours for the New Year.
Ok , you can all slag me for that now.
:)

Its the fucking liberals fault.

At 12/24/06 08:26 PM, afliXion wrote:

At 12/20/06 10:44 PM, Dre-Man wrote:
The Bible says NOTHING about December 25th being Jesus's birthday, you're uninformed, you don't know about the history of the absorbtion of the pagan holidays into christianity.

It is true that alot of paganism was mixed with ROMAN CATHOLICISM, but has no paralells with the Bible (True Christianity). You've made this case for me, since you admit (and I agree) the Bible says nothing about December 25th.

Actually the Catholics weren't around yet...Catholicism gelled several hundred years after Christ and I believe Christmas (or a feast celebrating Christ's birth) predates the Catholic church.

Also, what Bible? The one written in Greek or Latin? Also, what about the oral tradition that accompanied the "Bible" that has been lost to history? What about all the books that the Council of Nicea (a group of humans, not God...) decided shouldn't be considered Canon?