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At 12/27/06 09:02 AM, TonioMiguel wrote:

Text

I think that in more modern societies it will be difficult to believe in god as a result of science continuing to beat religion on all fronts.

For example:
I live in a more modern society where diversity in religious and political views are more accepted then they were one hundred years ago.

Right now I don't believe that Mary was a virgin since it's biologically impossible. The lack of high speed information transfer and accurate recording of historical events during Jesus's time leads me to believe that it is much more likely Mary simply had sex and lied about it being the spirit of god that impregnated her. The punishment for adultery in those times was often met with exile or death. Or perhaps she was high on opium or drunk, had sex, and didn't remember it. There are numerous ways the situation could have played out, but I have an impossible time believing she was "magically impregnated" by the spirit of god.
I have even heard that the word "virgin" was misinterpreted/translated in the bible.

Right now I don't believe that Jesus "magically" turned water into wine. That is ridiculous, basic chemistry tells me that it is impossible. How do we know that they didn't just exaggerate the story to attract followers to the Christian religion? Maybe turning water into wine actually implied that Jesus started watering some grape vines, harvested the grapes, and made wine out of them. Not just a magic wave of the fingers like the bible would have you believe.

Now what is my point?

One hundred years ago I probably would have been brought up in a world where I would have completely accepted those above claims. It is thanks to the modern world that I am able to logically question these magical bible stories and back up my skepticism with observations about "how things always work".

So in that sense, god really is dead too me in this modern day, and I feel his presence in people's lives will continue to decline. Europe is an excellent example of how god has disappeared from much of society.

At 12/27/06 09:02 AM, TonioMiguel wrote: I don't know what extra Biblical source you are looking at but the only reason why Christ is quoted as Jesus of Galilee is because that's where Joseph and Mary raised him after Egypt. He was born in Bethlehem because it fulfills the prophesy of Isaiah and Daniel.

Really? Because theres text (before the bible was rewriten) stating that he was NOT born in Bethlehem, he was born in Galilee and they even put a fucking church over it (which is now gone) over the spot where he was born. Or does a 9 month pregnent woman on a donkey traveling 70 miles seem better to you??

At 12/27/06 06:03 PM, Xyklon-B wrote:

At 12/27/06 05:17 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

Really? Because theres text (before the bible was rewriten) stating that he was NOT born in Bethlehem,

Site the sources or else shoot your dick.

No reason to be an insulting twat face.

At 12/28/06 02:47 AM, fasdit wrote:

At 12/27/06 06:03 PM, Xyklon-B wrote:

At 12/27/06 05:17 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

Really? Because theres text (before the bible was rewriten) stating that he was NOT born in Bethlehem,

Does it even matter? Even if the Bible is totally fabricated, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Maybe the Torah or Qu'ran is more accurate. Maybe the Vedas, or the teaching of the Buddah. Maybe a mix of everything.

Nor does it mean that Jesus' teaching is flawed.

Does it even matter? Even if the Bible is totally fabricated, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Maybe the Torah or Qu'ran is more accurate. Maybe the Vedas, or the teaching of the Buddah. Maybe a mix of everything.

Nor does it mean that Jesus' teaching is flawed.

I agree with your statement. Just because I hold to the Christian faith does not deny the fact that many people believe in many other faiths. It does not deny that many like myself would die for our own faiths just the same. Yet, Judeo-Christian morals are at the heart of the modern American and western government. Many nations scoff at Americas willingness to risk other peoples lives to save others. Self-sacrifice is one of the key elements of both Jewish and Christian faiths. Christ-like characters are also hidden in western literature.

If remnants of God are found in our literature, will God as an important entity ever cease to exist?

My argument that I started a while ago is that we forget the importance of religion that is hidden in our history, philosophy, morals and ethics. Even Greek and pagan religions help us to understand our values and culture. Why does a religion refuse to become pluralist? Look at the destruction of temples and synagogues the questions can only be answered when a culture looks into their roots.

I am not saying that only a Christian can understand westernism. I feel that Westernism is best understood by not forgetting its parts. Same as ensuring Christians know that Christianity is a Jewish religion not a Hellenistic religion which it has become due to the Catholic and Orthodox invasions. In order to understand ones self, a person must be able to look at his roots. Without an understanding of the Judeo-Christian God, Greek gods, and many of our mythologies and history, we fail to fully understand ourselves.

Thus, God or gods can never be truly dead even if society feels they don't need them; they will continue to exist.

At 12/28/06 12:30 PM, Goldensheep wrote:

At 12/28/06 02:47 AM, fasdit wrote:

At 12/27/06 06:03 PM, Xyklon-B wrote:

At 12/27/06 05:17 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

Really? Because theres text (before the bible was rewriten) stating that he was NOT born in Bethlehem,

Does it even matter? Even if the Bible is totally fabricated, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. Maybe the Torah or Qu'ran is more accurate. Maybe the Vedas, or the teaching of the Buddah. Maybe a mix of everything.

Nor does it mean that Jesus' teaching is flawed.

But thats the thing. If these few are the ones that we know of today what will we uncover in years to come? There may be thousands of inacuracies that have been changed or forgotten. Hell we may even find out in your lifetime that the whole of the bible in flawd.

At 12/26/06 01:25 PM, Portkillar wrote:

At 12/18/06 06:04 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 12/18/06 06:03 PM, cold-as-hell wrote: Christian numbers are droping?

HORAY!!

no, too bad for you dumbass atheists.

Im sorry us "dumbasses" don't balieve that the world was formed by a flick of God's fingers!

I'm sorry you dumbasses don't have any facts to back up any non-religious ways the world could have been created. "God created the heavens and the earth" is the only line we need to tell us how the world was created, but you, you need a lot more, and you still don't have it all yet, and you never will.

Science seems to prove religion wrong, time and time again. However, there should never be arguments between who is right or wrong, its a never ending cycle that ends up turning into violence which goes both agaist the teachings of Jesus and human morality.

You sir, are an idiot, with no FACTS (not theories) to back up what you've just said. You have nothing, absolutely nothing, that can prove any kind of religion wrong, whatsoever.

At 12/29/06 03:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: I'm sorry you dumbasses don't have any facts to back up any non-religious ways the world could have been created. "God created the heavens and the earth" is the only line we need to tell us how the world was created, but you, you need a lot more, and you still don't have it all yet, and you never will.

I want to see if I can corner you on this one.

There are facts to back up "secular" ways in which the earth formed. Dust and gas from a nebula are attracted to each other because of gravity, and pull towards one another, until a planet, such as earth, is formed. The facts to back this up is that we see it happening all the time, and stars form in a similar way.

No, "God created the heavens and the earth" is NOT the only line you need to tell you how the world was created. You have absolutely no idea how the world was created whatsoever, except who did it and the stages at which it was created.

As if an appeal to convenience should be a basis for Biblical literalism anyway. Oh wow, your beliefs are simpler to understand than mine? I suppose that makes your beliefs more valid. Well the truth doesn't come that easily, sorry.

Fucking hell you're arrogant! Do you really think there's no proof for how the planets and galaxies formed, and even that it's impossible to find evidence for it? I mean Jesus Christ, you really don't know anything about Physics do you.

You sir, are an idiot, with no FACTS (not theories) to back up what you've just said. You have nothing, absolutely nothing, that can prove any kind of religion wrong, whatsoever.

Actually that's not what he said. There are a number of instances in which Science has proved mainstream religion wrong, such as Copernicus' model of heliocentricism contradicting what the Church believed in the 17th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

At 12/29/06 05:09 PM, Peter-II wrote:

At 12/29/06 03:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: I'm sorry you dumbasses don't have any facts to back up any non-religious ways the world could have been created. "God created the heavens and the earth" is the only line we need to tell us how the world was created, but you, you need a lot more, and you still don't have it all yet, and you never will.

I want to see if I can corner you on this one.

Well, good luck on that one.

There are facts to back up "secular" ways in which the earth formed. Dust and gas from a nebula are attracted to each other because of gravity, and pull towards one another, until a planet, such as earth, is formed. The facts to back this up is that we see it happening all the time, and stars form in a similar way.

Theory, not fact.

No, "God created the heavens and the earth" is NOT the only line you need to tell you how the world was created. You have absolutely no idea how the world was created whatsoever, except who did it and the stages at which it was created.

Actually, it is, when you look at the world religiously you don't need some kind of evolutionist theory to tell you how everything came to be.

As if an appeal to convenience should be a basis for Biblical literalism anyway. Oh wow, your beliefs are simpler to understand than mine? I suppose that makes your beliefs more valid. Well the truth doesn't come that easily, sorry.

What the hell do you know about the truth? Like I said, you have no facts whatsoever to back up anything that you've said, you only have theory. But I, looking at the world religiously, if you ask me "How was the Earth created?" I can answer you in one sentence.

Fucking hell you're arrogant! Do you really think there's no proof for how the planets and galaxies formed, and even that it's impossible to find evidence for it? I mean Jesus Christ, you really don't know anything about Physics do you.

Actually, I do know a little about physics and the physical world, and I never said that you didn't have EVIDENCE of how the Earth was created, I said that you didn't have any concrete facts, and that you never will, which you won't.

You sir, are an idiot, with no FACTS (not theories) to back up what you've just said. You have nothing, absolutely nothing, that can prove any kind of religion wrong, whatsoever.

Actually that's not what he said. There are a number of instances in which Science has proved mainstream religion wrong, such as Copernicus' model of heliocentricism contradicting what the Church believed in the 17th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

Just because scientists can prove certain Christian interperetations wrong doesn't mean that it can prove religion wrong in general, you're way off topic there.

At 12/29/06 06:17 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Theory, not fact.

i'm happy you still refuse to learn the meaning of that word.

At 12/29/06 03:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: I'm sorry you dumbasses don't have any facts to back up any non-religious ways the world could have been created. "God created the heavens and the earth" is the only line we need to tell us how the world was created, but you, you need a lot more, and you still don't have it all yet, and you never will.

I completely agree with Peter with his agrument. All things have a gravitational attraction to one another. Go pick up two pencils on your desk dre man. Now set these pencils next to each other, believe it or not, these two pencils are actually attracted to one another, however their gravitational force is so weak that it is impossible for the naked eye to detect.

And you want facts and proof?
Here read up on this article, this is an experiment done with two lead balls (a dense and heavy mass) and a rod suspended from a fine wire. We actually did this is my physics class if that is any more proof for you. Cavendish Gravity Experiment

What does this prove?
It proves that every atom has a gravitational attraction. We can apply this theory (something that has been proven numerous times and is accepted to be true) to the formation of planets and stars just like Peter tried to explain.

Large clouds of dust, ice, and other solid debri exist all over space, we have seen these nebula clouds with telescopes so we have proof that they exist. All of the particles in these clouds have a gravitational attraction to one another. Over time all of these particles get pulled closer and closer and closer and closer together until they form a dense object such as a moon, planet, or star. This effect has actually been observed happening in outer space with the use of telescopes. Thus we have proof that it exists.

So what does all that mean? My name is dre man and I don't understand things outside of "god did it", please explain further fasdit.

Well you see dre man, we actually have cold hard evidence that tells us how planets and stars form. Assuming that everything in the universe is consistant, this is exactly how the earth, our sun, and our solar system was formed.

This goes against the bible which as you stated says, "god created the heavens and the earth".

Does this evidence disprove the existence of god? No it doesn't.

But does this evidence disprove that god created the heavens and the earth?
It kind of does and kind of doesn't.

We can assume based on the above scientific data and observations that god did not directly create the earth, our sun, or our solar system. However, the above data does not prove that god didn't create the base materials of the universe or the big bang.

It's really all relative to how you interperet god created the heavens and the earth

Dre man, you take the literal interpretation that god simply waved his fingers to create the earth, but unfortunetly our scientific observations of gravity, nebula dust clouds, and telescope observations of stars proves your belief wrong.

So we can conclude that
God did not directly create the earth.

Hello fasdit, try this on for size...

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t.

You have evidence, only evidence, you can not give me a single concrete fact that tells me how the earth was created, sure, you can mold theories, and apply evidence, but it still isn't concrete, and it never will be. You just wasted a whole lot of text telling me that there is evidence to support scientific theories, which is already known to me. Stop wasting your time with evidence and give me some facts that prove God's inexistence, and atheism correct.

At 12/29/06 06:32 PM, fasdit wrote: So we can conclude that
God did not directly create the earth.

or maybe that is God's direct involvement with everything around us. but either way science does not deny God and God does not deny science.

At 12/29/06 06:37 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Hello fasdit, try this on for size...

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t.

and you can't prove you exist either so thats sort of fun.

At 12/29/06 06:37 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Hello fasdit, try this on for size...

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t.

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t e-i-t-h-e-r s-o s-h-u-t t-h-e f-u-c-k u-p a-n-d d-i-e-!-!

At 12/29/06 06:37 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Hello fasdit, try this on for size...

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t.

You have evidence, only evidence, you can not give me a single concrete fact that tells me how the earth was created, sure, you can mold theories, and apply evidence, but it still isn't concrete, and it never will be. You just wasted a whole lot of text telling me that there is evidence to support scientific theories, which is already known to me. Stop wasting your time with evidence and give me some facts that prove God's inexistence, and atheism correct.

Wow you're an idiot. I have no evidence, only evidence? Okay dre man.
You honestly think a line of writen and translated text has more truth to it then real observations??! You're observing a line of text just like astronomers are observing the real thing.

These observations of how stars and planets form are true. How could they not be? They have been observed, as in, people have literally watched it happen with their own eyes with telescopes.

Remember how the bible said that the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe, the sun rotated around the earth? Remember all that stuff and how it was proven wrong? The bible obviously has a fantastic track record of getting astronomy related topics correct.

Dre man I have to certify you as the the biggest religious dumbass I have ever met in my life.

At 12/29/06 03:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote:
I'm sorry you dumbasses don't have any facts to back up any non-religious ways the world could have been created. "God created the heavens and the earth" is the only line we need to tell us how the world was created, but you, you need a lot more, and you still don't have it all yet, and you never will.

Hang a tick. You keep saying either atheists dont have facts to prove or disprove religion, then you go off and say religion doesnt have or need facts just faith. Make up your fucking mind and while your at it commit suicide.

At 12/29/06 06:53 PM, fasdit wrote: ??!

and the dre man induced aneuryisms begin again.

At 12/29/06 06:56 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 12/29/06 06:53 PM, fasdit wrote: ??!

and the dre man induced aneuryisms begin again.

AHHHHHHHHHH I feel like my head is going to explode trying to explain something to dre man.

ghhherrrror!!?!?11/1/1.shift;1?312!4?!? (explosion)

At 12/29/06 06:56 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 12/29/06 06:53 PM, fasdit wrote: ??!

and the dre man induced aneuryisms begin again.

maybe not he said he'd be dead in a few minutes so im getting champagne

At 12/29/06 06:54 PM, made-4-sex wrote: Hang a tick. You keep saying either atheists dont have facts to prove or disprove religion, then you go off and say religion doesnt have or need facts just faith. Make up your fucking mind and while your at it commit suicide.

Did you actually think for one minute that religion is backed by any kind of fact, or that it needs to be? You're an idiot, if I do say so myself.

I got a good one.

I have just found out that everyone on my mums side was born

..........(keep guessing).......

catholic.

I had no fucking idea till yesterday. No cunt told me.

Now I feel even more empty. Shame im an atheist isnt it?

At 12/29/06 07:02 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 12/29/06 06:54 PM, made-4-sex wrote: Hang a tick. You keep saying either atheists dont have facts to prove or disprove religion, then you go off and say religion doesnt have or need facts just faith. Make up your fucking mind and while your at it commit suicide.

Did you actually think for one minute that religion is backed by any kind of fact, or that it needs to be? You're an idiot, if I do say so myself.

Why doesn't religion need fact, god allowed us to have facts in the first place when he gave us free will.

At 12/29/06 06:53 PM, fasdit wrote:

At 12/29/06 06:37 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Hello fasdit, try this on for size...

Y-o-u c-a-n n-o-t p-r-o-v-e i-t.

You have evidence, only evidence, you can not give me a single concrete fact that tells me how the earth was created, sure, you can mold theories, and apply evidence, but it still isn't concrete, and it never will be. You just wasted a whole lot of text telling me that there is evidence to support scientific theories, which is already known to me. Stop wasting your time with evidence and give me some facts that prove God's inexistence, and atheism correct.

Wow you're an idiot. I have no evidence, only evidence? Okay dre man.
You honestly think a line of writen and translated text has more truth to it then real observations??! You're observing a line of text just like astronomers are observing the real thing.

These observations of how stars and planets form are true. How could they not be? They have been observed, as in, people have literally watched it happen with their own eyes with telescopes.

Remember how the bible said that the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe, the sun rotated around the earth? Remember all that stuff and how it was proven wrong? The bible obviously has a fantastic track record of getting astronomy related topics correct.

You've just proven the fact that you've never read the bible, and know nothing about it, because it doesn't say that the earth is flat, and it sure as hell doesn't say that the sun revolves around the earth, simply because that was the early church's explanation for it doesn't mean that it's in the bible, fuckbag.

Dre man I have to certify you as the the biggest religious dumbass I have ever met in my life.

You are the biggest atheist biggot I've ever met in my life, if anyone goes against the mold on this forum he gets his eyes pecked out.

God to me is an interior strength, a never-ending source of hope and my motivation for the surpassing of my potential.

In my opinion, one needn't go into literal interpretations.

Dre man I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic.

It means that I don't exactly disbelieve the existence of god, I just don't feel strongly one way or the other. It's more like I'll just wait and see what happens, if it turns out I was wrong and god is real then I guess I'll just be spending the rest of eternity in the fiery lakes of hell.

It's more like I'm just against modern religions because they take things out of context or try to force people into their beliefs. I've met very few religious people that are accepting of my beliefs and won't try to change them.

At 12/29/06 07:10 PM, fasdit wrote: Dre man I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic.

That's basically the same thing, if you only think that there might be a God you might as well just be atheist anyway. .

It means that I don't exactly disbelieve the existence of god, I just don't feel strongly one way or the other. It's more like I'll just wait and see what happens, if it turns out I was wrong and god is real then I guess I'll just be spending the rest of eternity in the fiery lakes of hell.

I know what agnostic means.

It's more like I'm just against modern religions because they take things out of context or try to force people into their beliefs. I've met very few religious people that are accepting of my beliefs and won't try to change them.

You mistake argument for a conversion attempt.

At 12/29/06 07:02 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Did you actually think for one minute that religion is backed by any kind of fact, or that it needs to be? You're an idiot, if I do say so myself.

religion does not require fact because it is all in the mind. science requires fact because it deals with existence and everything around us and how it works. when science explains it provides us with facts when religion explains our world it doesn't. it is in this overlapping area that religion is of little use as its attempts to explain the world (everything) are based on the ideas of ancient man who could only observe and deduce what they saw. if modern man can see more now wouldn't it be appropriate to change our views on how The Lord created all?

You're right when you say that science needs facts to support it's ideas of how the earth was created, and that religion doesn't. But it lacks what it needs, thus proving religion the greater explanation.

At 12/29/06 07:38 PM, Dre-Man wrote: But it lacks what it needs, thus proving religion the greater explanation.

wow, just wow.