Communists Suck!!

[kospas]

Communists suck because they want a nev Russia or North-Korea in every freakin' country. And they never learn. Communism is a dictatorship and many people don't seem to realize that.

[Shangui]

But what if their could be a democratic communism ? Wouldnt that be great, everyone would gain just the same, their would be no social innegalities or oppression. It's the best of both systems.

[fourdaddy]

At 4/9/03 06:04 PM, Shangui wrote: But what if their could be a democratic communism ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHahahahahahahahahahaaaaa

wait wait wait! i got one....what if there could be a constitutional dictatorship?

hahahahahaha

you were joking, right?......right?!?

[Shangui]

I know to some of you this may seem impossible, but that was the original marxism is all about, it was bent out of shape by Lenine and Mao... they just used Karl Marx's arguments to instore a systeme where they could reing has supreme leader, but the communist ECONOMIC systeme is based on the equality of every citizens. Isnt that what the chart of human rights is all about ?

[kospas]

No you n00b I wasn't joking

And it was very inteligent

[fourdaddy]

At 4/9/03 06:23 PM, kospas wrote: No you n00b I wasn't joking

And it was very inteligent

first off captain dipshit, i wasnt talking to you. i agree with you on a level that i do not believe communism can work, but my reasoning is more than 'its a dictatorship!' it wont work because there is not enough incentive to work harder or be innovative, so if all governments went commie, there would be a new 'dark age' of no innovations or inventions

second, n00b? whos level 4 with 2 posts, you or me?

finally, no, you didnt really say anything intelligent, you just made a broad generalization that anyone can see. kinda pointless

[Slizor]

wait wait wait! i got one....what if there could be a constitutional dictatorship?

A dictatorship can have a constitution y'know. And having a Constitution does not mean people will follow it, just look at America. If you want an actual debate about the merits of Communism, bring it on.

[fourdaddy]

At 4/10/03 12:05 PM, Slizor wrote: If you want an actual debate about the merits of Communism, bring it on.

i understand that the THEORY of communism is excellent, but in real life it is very impractical. it wont work because so many people have a character that makes them only work as hard as they have to and under a communist system, this is not punished. you also are not rewarded for being better, which eliminates competitiveness in the workplace, which leads to inefficiency.

in a perfect world, yes, communism would work. in our world, no, it will not

[thenark]

At 4/9/03 06:08 PM, fourdaddy wrote:

At 4/9/03 06:04 PM, Shangui wrote:

wait wait wait! i got one....what if there could be a constitutional dictatorship?

There are constitutional dictatorships, there have been since about the time of the French revolutiom. Even though people have no say in government, that government can still have a set of laws and rights.

And as for the topic, communism would be great if it could work, but its part of human nature that universal equality cant work. From each according to capacity, and to each according to need cant ever work as long as there is a wealth/class system. And there will always be someone who wants to have more than the others. And I think capitalism is more a description of what the wealthy, Dictator or Democratically Elected, Sane or Insane, want to do today.

[bumcheekcity]

At 4/9/03 06:00 PM, kospas wrote: Communists suck because they want a nev Russia or North-Korea in every freakin' country. And they never learn. Communism is a dictatorship and many people don't seem to realize that.

actually communism is quite good in theory, it doesnt work in practise cos it demotivates people to work, but the fact remains it isnt a bad political ideal.

[Slizor]

i understand that the THEORY of communism is excellent, but in real life it is very impractical. it wont work because so many people have a character that makes them only work as hard as they have to

Ah, the art of arguing with assertions. The joy of it.

and under a communist system, this is not punished.

It isn't? Damn!

you also are not rewarded for being better, which eliminates competitiveness in the workplace, which leads to inefficiency.

People work for many many reasons....to look it just from a view of money is far far too narrowminded.

[bumcheekcity]

At 4/10/03 03:42 PM, Slizor wrote: People work for many many reasons....to look it just from a view of money is far far too narrowminded.

you'd have to agree they work MIANLY for money though.

[Slizor]

you'd have to agree they work MIANLY for money though.

No I wouldn't. Sure, the consumerist world we live in today may try and convince you otherwise, but the main reason for work is not money.

[TheDoctor]

Communism is one of those things-if everyone beleived in it the world would be a much better place....
It's just IGNORANT FOOLS (and those damn patriots+born-again christians)like the one that posted this topic that are holding us back from acheiving this goal! as you can probably guess by my name, I beleive in several communist principals and Vladimir Lenin is (in my opinion) the greatest politician the world has ever known. Mind you I also beleive in several buddhist aspects, so a new religion of BUDUNISTS would make the world paradise!

[Shangui]

O.K, their is no historical exemple of a working communist country, exept maybe China... even though... but what if we just make a left-sided liberalist country. Sure, maybe countries are already built has such, but it could be interesting to push gradualy the governement towards the left. For those who dont know what's left and right, left is closer to socialism, to the people, and right is closer to faschism, counts the people has a whole under the country.

A left-sided system keeps the competetiveness, but reduce the social inequalities. Did you know that in a big business the difference in the salary of the lowest employee vs. the highest is a 1 000 000 times ? That's the best exemple of a social inequality.

[NEMESiSZ]

At 4/9/03 06:00 PM, kospas wrote: Communists suck because they want a nev Russia or North-Korea in every freakin' country. And they never learn. Communism is a dictatorship and many people don't seem to realize that.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and should refrain from any further postings here in the politics forum.

[fourdaddy]

At 4/10/03 04:02 PM, Slizor wrote:

you'd have to agree they work MIANLY for money though.

No I wouldn't. Sure, the consumerist world we live in today may try and convince you otherwise, but the main reason for work is not money.

slizor, do you have a job? and if you do, and you seriously believe that people do not work just for money, what do you work for? if you work for free, my yard REALLY needs mowed, so come on over...

work has always, ALWAYS been for at least personal sustainence, but at some point people want more than to just eek through life, so they began working for gain. when monatary systems changed from the trade of goods to the use of money, money became the object that those who strived to do more were after.

communism affords those under it few luxuries, and as it has been implemented so far in this world, few personal possessions. exactly how well do you like using YOUR computer in YOUR house?

communism can not work...capitalism will always appeal to those who have money, and those who have money also have power, so i dont think there is a global communist takeover anywhere in the near future.

[Shangui]

Fourdaddy,
You say that the rich have power and, since they love their money, they support capitalism, thus making a change towards communism impossible. But what if someday the poor just get sick of the rich being in position of power ? Couldnt they uprise and create a civil war to regain control and, maybe, transform their country into a communist nation ? That's what happened in Russia at the end of the Tzars reing of terror. Revolution happened all the time during the History of men and it's likly to happen again. We cannot predict the futur for sure. Communism may still reappear in some nations... or disapear for that matter...

[Slizor]

slizor, do you have a job? and if you do, and you seriously believe that people do not work just for money, what do you work for? if you work for free, my yard REALLY needs mowed, so come on over...

Again, you fail to understand what I am saying. Of course people work for money, but it is not the main reason people work. The most worried about, but not the reason.

communism affords those under it few luxuries, and as it has been implemented so far in this world, few personal possessions. exactly how well do you like using YOUR computer in YOUR house?

If wealth was shared then people would have the average of what people have now. If it is that the average affords few luxuries then that is how it is. It is not inherent.

communism can not work...capitalism will always appeal to those who have money, and those who have money also have power

Which is why Capitalism is incompatiable with democracy.

so i dont think there is a global communist takeover anywhere in the near future.

"Lost causes are the best causes to fight for"
Mr Jones Goes to Washington

[fourdaddy]

At 4/10/03 06:06 PM, Shangui wrote: Fourdaddy,
You say that the rich have power and, since they love their money, they support capitalism, thus making a change towards communism impossible.

not impossible, but highly unlikely

But what if someday the poor just get sick of the rich being in position of power ? Couldnt they uprise and create a civil war to regain control and, maybe, transform their country into a communist nation ? That's what happened in Russia at the end of the Tzars reing of terror.

that was a different situation. under the Czars, russia failed to industrialize whereas the US leads industrialization today. there was also a worse disparity in income in russia at the time than in america right now (by that i am not referring to how much bill gates makes compared to me, i mean the spectrum is more evenly covered in the US). there are way too many middle class (which didnt really exist in precommunist russia) citizens in the US for the poor to raise up and overthrow the government. the poor are not the majority in modern US. besides, imagine all the bums from NYC going up against a team of navy seals...not pretty

Revolution happened all the time during the History of men and it's likly to happen again. We cannot predict the futur for sure. Communism may still reappear in some nations... or disapear for that matter...

ever heard the song by the who called 'wont get fooled again'? the last line of the song is 'meet the new boss, the same as the old boss'...im not sure if he was referring to it, but it describes communist russia rather well, after they got into power, they became as corrupt as the Czars.

the moral of the story is: the devil you know is better than the one you dont

[Shangui]

Let me reword my thoughts, I dont talk about U.S.A in particullar when I talk of uprising, many other countries may try to transform their country in a commnist nation. It's unlikely of course that communism will be the next political system in the U.S.A, seeing how many americans were raised in hating communism. I must admit that the Russian exemple wasnt the best... real marxism has never been tried, I still hope a "neutral" country may try this governement type one day.

P.S: finally somebody who knows how to agrue without wailing insults ! Well for those I've seen...

[Shangui]

Let me reword my thoughts, I dont talk about U.S.A in particullar when I talk of uprising, many other countries may try to transform their country in a commnist nation. It's unlikely of course that communism will be the next political system in the U.S.A, seeing how many americans were raised in hating communism. I must admit that the Russian exemple wasnt the best... real marxism has never been tried, I still hope a "neutral" country may try this governement type one day.

P.S: finally somebody who knows how to agrue without wailing insults ! Well for those I've seen...

P.P.S: Maybe you should study Karl Marx's philosophy, it's very interesting, although utopic.

[kospas]

Communism is one of those things-if everyone beleived in it the world would be a much better place....

This is just bullshit man open your eyes if you have any... communsim doesn't work. Well if you like, feel free to live in Nort-Korea or something. And I tell you North Korea is the hell on earth paople are eating grass because of there is nothing else to eat. Why won't you bastards understand that communsism Is just crap.
Every communist country or countries that have been communist are just worthless. Corruption and poverty man that aint good for the people. Why do you think Lenin, Stalin is a rolemodel. Because they killed millions of their own? * Well I know Lenin didn't kill that many, but Stalin sure did.

[fourdaddy]

At 4/10/03 07:17 PM, Shangui wrote: P.S: finally somebody who knows how to agrue without wailing insults ! Well for those I've seen...

ill take this as praise and thank you

P.P.S: Maybe you should study Karl Marx's philosophy, it's very interesting, although utopic.

its on my list actually, and the fact that it is 'utopic' is part of my argument for why it couldnt work.

[MadMax501]

At 4/10/03 01:22 PM, fourdaddy wrote:

At 4/10/03 12:05 PM, Slizor wrote: If you want an actual debate about the merits of Communism, bring it on.

i understand that the THEORY of communism is excellent, but in real life it is very impractical. it wont work because so many people have a character that makes them only work as hard as they have to and under a communist system, this is not punished. you also are not rewarded for being better, which eliminates competitiveness in the workplace, which leads to inefficiency.

in a perfect world, yes, communism would work. in our world, no, it will not

exactly my thoughts...communism can never work because there is never an incentive to work. You get paid if you don't work, you get paid if you do work, if the man next to you does 100 times of a better job, he still gets paid the same. See what I'm saying?

[TheShrike]

At 4/9/03 06:23 PM, kospas wrote: No you n00b I wasn't joking

Pot? Yes, it's Kettle. You're black.

[Jlop985]

What some fail to understand is that communism is not equivalent to a dicatorship, nor is capitalism equivalent to democracy. Capitalist dictatorships exist, like in '50s and '60s South Korea, '70s and '80s Chile, and modern day Kuwait (Well, it's certainly not a republic). Democratic communism is theoretically possible, and would be the best system, if only there could be a magical way to provide the people with a work incentive. That is the major flaw with communism. The economy stagnates. With all the communist revolutions, there emerged a leader that took advantage of the people, and controlled them to his advantage. Because communism requires such a massive bureauocracy to enforce, the government will most likely be highly centralized, and authoritatian, with a dictator or an entrenched council leading the country. Capitalism requires less government, thus the government may or may not be liberal (in the broader sense).
So in conclusion communism:
A. Eliminates work incentive
B. Makes it very easy for someone or a group of people to take power.

Some months back I made a nifty little list describing all the characteristics of government, and that is what I use to classify them.
Here it is:
Economic system: capitalism, socialism, communism
Level of local autonomy: confederate, federal, unitary
Strictness of laws: liberal, authoritarian
Organization of government: republic, monarchy
Source of sovereignty: democracy, oligarchy, despotism

[flamy]

OK, we're clear that communism won't work, and capitalism isn't that good. But what about socialism? There are lots of examples of socialism working, like Switzerland, Netherlands, Finland, Canada :) and so on. And as I understand, socialism is based on capitalistic economic system, however there is a small addition - higher taxes and because of that higher level of social care (such as free medicine) is implemented.

Socialism is a nice alternative to two extremes - people still get rewarded and get more free stuff from the government, which makes them equal.

[NJDeadzone]

Enlightened despotism was pretty sweet in its beginning period...it paved the way for monumental changes in society

[Commander-K25]

I could write a long explanation of why I oppose communism as I have done in the past or I could simply sum it up in a single image: