Women, Christianity & Islam

[TheMason]

You know I've heard much about how Muslims mistreat their women. While I have not read the Qur'an cover to cover, I have many Muslim friends as well as one or two very intelligent Professors. It is popular for Muslim critics to point to the Muslim veil as the symbol for this mistreatment. Yet from everything I've ever been told or taught; this veil is a vestige of pre-Islamic tribal customs and NOT Qur'anically based.

On the other hand, Christianity is not the examplar for enlightenment for equality of the sexes:

I Corinthians
11:3
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

11:5-10
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(This last is interesting in that it has been explained to me that the veil is to protect women from being raped by fallen angels...)

14:33-35
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:14-15
14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 Peter 3:5-6
5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

So check it out, we should keep our women veiled as well! Furthermore, they should bear children if they do not want to go to hell. Also they should be submissive to their husbands and call them Master. Finally, they are not speak in church.

So how can we as Christians really fault the Muslims for how they treat their women?

[Flashfire]

It doesn't matter what is written, it only matters how it works in reality. Christianity has been secularised through a process of centuries and with the help of free thinkers. Islam hasn't been through such a process and it isn't as open to change.

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 10:04 AM, Flashfire wrote: It doesn't matter what is written, it only matters how it works in reality. Christianity has been secularised through a process of centuries and with the help of free thinkers. Islam hasn't been through such a process and it isn't as open to change.

How do you figure?

There are 72 different sects of Shi'ism alone. There is also a rise of Islamic feminists and other moderate voices in Islam. It is as open to change as Christianity...

Also American Christian tradition has long been a conservative one that has tried to shun the secularization of the religion. Sure we have our Episcopalians, Diests and Unitarians but we also have our fundamentalists, evangelicals, S. Baptists and Army of God...

So your generalization (as is typical of generalizations) falls flat. There are plenty of religious orders that take a conservitive view on women: Mormons, Amish and Quakers all come to mind quickly...

As for not being open to change:

Revelation 22:18-19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Next?

[cold-as-hell]

This is why I avoid religion. Because its as good as a harpoon in the back.

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 02:13 PM, cold-as-hell wrote: This is why I avoid religion. Because its as good as a harpoon in the back.

Yeah, unfortunately you can't avoid it when some nutbag decides to blow himself (or whatever) up because you don't believe in the same interpretation you do (or disbelief if you're an atheist).

While I have faith, I like pointing out inconsitencies and hypocrisies!

[ReiperX]

Christianity is become a little bit more modern. While you probally do have a small minority of people who actually still do the wife master thing and such, for the most part people have forgotten about those things.

Muslims, on the other hand, in certain countries have these traditions, whether its in the Koran or not. But not all Muslims believe in the veil thing. Or the covering up the head thing. I work around a lot of Muslims, and you have a few that cover their heads, but a majority are modernized. Remember, just like Christianity, you do have different sects within Islam as well with some different beliefs.

[RedSkunk]

I had a topic similar to this a couple years ago..

Most of the arguments that say we're liberating women in the Middle East are false and based more on [intentionally] misunderstanding / misrepresenting the culture.

[RedSkunk]

At 12/4/06 02:44 PM, ReiperX wrote: Muslims, on the other hand, in certain countries have these traditions, whether its in the Koran or not. But not all Muslims believe in the veil thing. Or the covering up the head thing. I work around a lot of Muslims, and you have a few that cover their heads, but a majority are modernized. Remember, just like Christianity, you do have different sects within Islam as well with some different beliefs.

What does it matter whether or not a woman wears the veil? Is your post based on the assumption that "modernized" (and by which you mean westernized, certainly) is good and the alternative is bad, or are you pointing this out without making a claim about it? In which case.. Why point it out?

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 02:45 PM, RedSkunk wrote: Most of the arguments that say we're liberating women in the Middle East are false and based more on [intentionally] misunderstanding / misrepresenting the culture.

Agreed. However, I'm a little sad that I wasn't the first to think up this topic! But hey, at least basing it on Biblical verses is a new approache on NG, right?

[cold-as-hell]

At 12/4/06 02:23 PM, TheMason wrote:

While I have faith, I like pointing out inconsitencies and hypocrisies!

He would have no need to. Im not important enough.

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 03:48 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 12/4/06 02:23 PM, TheMason wrote:

While I have faith, I like pointing out inconsitencies and hypocrisies!

He would have no need to. Im not important enough.

What the hell? This post makes no sense whatsoever...

[Imperator]

In an ironic twist of fate:

Early Christianity (pre-Nicene) featured a large female administrative system. They were leaders, priests, and so on in the Church. Read up on ther martyrdom of Perpetua and Thecla for examples of this.

As Christianity became more mainstream women LOST power within the Church, losing the right (among other things) to become priests and spiritual leaders.

In a lot of Early Christian literature you see this type of thing occuring. This is due to the rejection of old world (Roman) ideals of women, as an appeal to them and the lower classes.

Some scholars speculate that the reason Christianity survived when other eastern cults like Mithras, Isis, Osiris, etc did not was because of this appeal outside of the typical range of people. Most other religions appealed to the rich aristocrats, whereas Christianity appealed to women, the poor, the sick, the sinners, etc, forming a much larger population base.

After Nicene, women pretty much cease being leaders within the Church, and the old ideas of fighitng against traditional women views dies for......well....traditional women views.

It was only in the modern world where women have regained some of these rights and prestige, depending on the country. Worldwide, Vatican II helped bring women back as influences within the Church. Before then women wore special veils and gloves to Church, etc......

Oddly enough, in the west we view the idea of women in veils as an act of subjugation and violation of women's rights, yet we our own Christian women wear veils to Church no more than 50 years ago.........

How easily we forget.....

[cold-as-hell]

At 12/4/06 04:08 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 12/4/06 03:48 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 12/4/06 02:23 PM, TheMason wrote:

While I have faith, I like pointing out inconsitencies and hypocrisies!

He would have no need to. Im not important enough.

What the hell? This post makes no sense whatsoever...

It usually doesnt

[Imperator]

man, I should really learn to read over my words before hitting post it!......
The above rant is a grammatical nightmare.....

[cold-as-hell]

At 12/4/06 04:08 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 12/4/06 03:48 PM, cold-as-hell wrote:

At 12/4/06 02:23 PM, TheMason wrote:

While I have faith, I like pointing out inconsitencies and hypocrisies!

He would have no need to. Im not important enough.

What the hell? This post makes no sense whatsoever...

I like pudding muly mu la la ping

[cold-as-hell]

At 12/4/06 04:15 PM, Imperator wrote: man, I should really learn to read over my words before hitting post it!......
The above rant is a grammatical nightmare.....

Yes it made absolutly no sence what so ever lol look up

[JakeHero]

Any christian that uses women's rights to bash Islam is a jackass. So I'm going to type who gives a fuck? Why make a topic devoted to this sort of hypocrisy when more pressing hypocrisy is at hand?

[Camarohusky]

At 12/4/06 04:45 PM, Grammer wrote: Christians don't stone adulteress' to death, that's the difference,.

So the person who commits the heinous act, automatically gives that act to all of theri religion? The Muslim may claim he/she is acting in god's will, but he is truly not. This does not mean all Muslims are chauvinist woman crushers.

[RedSkunk]

At 12/4/06 06:24 PM, Grammer wrote: There aren't many Christians who stone people to death for breaking Jesus' commandments. Being that Jesus was against the death penalty, and all.

You didn't read Camaro's post, did you?

[the-salmon-of-doubt]

i'm sorry if someone has already said this:
women have been treated like shit for years. the fact that they're treated like shit in countries like afghanistan isn't that shocking. and islam isn't the problem. different cultures have different restrictions on what women can do. on his travels, ibn battuta visited a friend, and when he saw him and his wife (i'm not sure if he had more than one), he was appalled to find out that where his friend lived women had as much freedom as she did. however after that he never visited him again, but even though that is indicative of a misogynistic attitude, it really wasn't that hard to come by pretty much anywhere in europe or asia. the reason that women have so many rights in countries like the U.S. are for a number of political reasons including secularization

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 05:17 PM, BanditByte wrote: Any christian that uses women's rights to bash Islam is a jackass. So I'm going to type who gives a fuck? Why make a topic devoted to this sort of hypocrisy when more pressing hypocrisy is at hand?

Obviously someone does because I posted it and others have responded...

But thanks for admitting the hypocrisy of Christianity and being a little bit of a troll...

[TheMason]

At 12/4/06 04:11 PM, Imperator wrote: In an ironic twist of fate:

Early Christianity (pre-Nicene) featured a large female administrative system. They were leaders, priests, and so on in the Church. Read up on ther martyrdom of Perpetua and Thecla for examples of this.

Imperator my friend,

I've been doing alot of reading about this lately. Bart Ehrman is a really good source of information. Particularly his books Lost Christianities and Misquoting Jesus.

Before Nicea, there were many different beliefs on everything from how many gods there were (1, 2, 12, 30 or 365?), should the Jewish laws be abandoned as well as a woman's place. Some Christian groups were, as you pointed out, very progressive in relation to women's rights. Others however were not, thus we got chapters and verses like the one I posted above.

[TheMason]

At 12/5/06 06:50 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 12/4/06 08:49 PM, RedSkunk wrote: You didn't read Camaro's post, did you?

I did, I just barely understood it.

I think he was trying to say that you cannot judge the many by the actions of the few. If you open that Pandora's box, you would have to consider Christianity as warlike, chauvanist, homophobic terrorists as well.

[Strauss]

the whole issue is this.

these beliefs that these countries have are based on very old beliefs; beliefs that, at one time, almost all civilized cultures around the world had. the difference is that in most of these countries, beliefs have changed, mainly due to global awareness and free-exchange of ideas.

in deeply-rooted theocracies that are in the middle east, such an exchange of ideas is inhibited, and many philisophic ideas to go against the current beliefs are encouraged to be suppressed rather than heard. in such cultures, change comes, but much, much slower than it does in other cultures.

[TheMason]

At 12/5/06 07:19 PM, Strauss69 wrote: in deeply-rooted theocracies that are in the middle east, such an exchange of ideas is inhibited, and many philisophic ideas to go against the current beliefs are encouraged to be suppressed rather than heard. in such cultures, change comes, but much, much slower than it does in other cultures.

Then why is it that Islamic countries such as Pakistan & Turkey have had female heads of state. Also, other countries such as India that have long historys of mysoginy have had female heads of state...

Why then is the issue of Hillary or Rice running for President causing so much stir?

[troubles1]

At 12/4/06 10:24 AM, TheMason wrote:
Revelation 22:18-19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Next?

That passage is referring to adding or taking thing away from the bible. for instance you can not add a new passage to the book of revelations that you feel would help any argument you may have .. Even if you feel it is for the good of Christianity..:

But we are free to interpret the scriptures that are currently there.. Usually trusting in your own instinct's about what the true meaning of each scripture is the right decision .. if you are a righteous person who is good at heart then you will seek the good in each scripture..

[cold-as-hell]

I dont like religion cous preying is gay

[TheMason]

At 12/11/06 03:09 PM, troubles1 wrote:

At 12/4/06 10:24 AM, TheMason wrote:

That passage is referring to adding or taking thing away from the bible. for instance you can not add a new passage to the book of revelations that you feel would help any argument you may have .. Even if you feel it is for the good of Christianity..:

Actually it refers specifically to the Book of Revelations and not the Bible as a whole. It is an admonition by the author to the scribes who would copy it to be careful not to make any mistakes or change it to fit the scribe's (or his patron's) view of Christianity, as was common in the time...

[ShrikeandStunGun4CR]

At 12/4/06 10:24 AM, TheMason wrote:

At 12/4/06 10:04 AM, Flashfire wrote:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

???

Grabbing random quotes out of the bible is pointless. Most people agree that the bible isn't literal, it's figurative. Of course you have the extremists on both sides of the issue, but we don't follow the book word for word. That's why we aren't forced to curcumsize our children, sacrifice lambs to God, and stone those who disobey God, which are all part of God's 300 commandments that were delivered by Moses.
The Islams take their religion much more literally.

[cold-as-hell]

If god is soo great then why did the creature he created turn out so imperfect?