American "Culture" (lack thereof)?

[RedSkunk]

Recently in a class, a peer went on a lengthy tirade about how she felt cheated because her family had been in America for generations, "coming over on the Mayflower." She did not have a culture to connect to, like others who might have Italian or Irish descendants.

The whole American, liberal ideology of individualism, of singular, equal humans who are "blank slates," had really gotten to her. But I felt as if this whole attitude was shockingly absurd and racist. On the one hand, we have these foreign cultures with their exotic foods, dances, languages. And then we have the universalist individual, the American who has no shared culture or positive attributes. Most ironic to me, was the fact that this was the last class before our weeklong Thanksgiving Break, a holiday wholly American.

This position of hers does two things in my mind. First, it reinvents the Noble Savage. Even if we're talking about old-world Europeans here, they are romanticized. Americans with European roots can pull positive traits from their ancestors – Italians who make proper spaghetti for instance, or personality traits from a certain homeland. Non-Americans are seen as to be having rich, varied cultures and histories – but all of them, a single, identifiable culture. There is a homogenous French culture, a German one, etc. This seems pretty naive to me.

At the same time, it's assumed that Americans really are the universalist individuals that we paint ourselves to be. American exceptionalism is alive and well in this student's mind, unwittingly. We're a "melting pot" or whatever nonsense you wish to call it.

My biggest problem with this student's rant is that heritage seems to be an entirely racial thing. She spent a semester in Ghana and loved it there, and it further fueled her feelings. In reality, I don't see anything exceptional about the American case. First of all, because I don't see racial divides as being the most important thing in determing a cultural identity. You or I could rattle off a thousand different things that are uniquely American and shared by the great bulk off people living in the US. But my classmate doesn't want to hear of it, because she doesn't identify or relate – or see the value in – many of these things.

For that matter, neither do I. The single thing I like about Thanksgiving is the meal. The single thing I like about x-mas is the fact that it's an excuse for me to charge things on my credit card (ostensibly "gifts" from my parents). Oh, and the time off from classes. That's cool too.

But at the same time, while I don't value these things, I still acknowledge that they're a part of a shared American culture. How many non-Americans celebrate Thanksgiving? On the flip side – how many non-Christians do you know who still celebrate the holiday season? I'm one.

So it comes down to her not accepting her culture. And this does not seem to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

Thoughts?

[Imperator]

At 11/26/06 03:40 PM, RedSkunk wrote: So it comes down to her not accepting her culture. And this does not seem to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

Thoughts?

I would agree totally. Moreso than one not accepting one's culture, I think the problem stems from what one KNOWS about one's culture. It's fairly clear from what you described that she does not have a very well defined sense of identity. She's either still searching for her own sense of self, or she's a cross between different things and doesn't know what to represent, nor how.

Either way, bottom line is she simply does not know.

Recently in a class, a peer went on a lengthy tirade about how she felt cheated because her family had been in America for generations, "coming over on the Mayflower." She did not have a culture to connect to, like others who might have Italian or Irish descendants.

No, she very much does have a culture to connect to, but like I said above, she just doesn't know it, or like you said, refuses to accept it. She's more than likely British to some degree, since everyone who graduated grade school knows that the Mayflower was stacked with British citizens escaping persecution (the simple, watered down child version of Thanksgiving of course).

Or perhaps we are both miscalculating, and she is asseritng what she believes IS her identity; that of no identity. It's a damned shame that she would identify this way, for as you stated, we could rattle off hundreds of things that are uniquely (or most associated with) American culture. But again, why doesn't she accept these? Is it her upbringing? Or her lack of knowledge?

It almost sounds like she's been slightly indocrtinated with these ideas, and closed off to new ideas. Of course, I may be stretching it, and she may just be stubborn.......

All in all, it simply sounds like another case where a little friggin knowledge and patience or openness other people's opinions could go a long way. If I had seen it, I probably would have told her to read a damn book and grow up.........

[cold-as-hell]

culture changes constantly

[Tancrisism]

American culture is a tricky thing to pinpoint, as every different region has a different culture. For instance, the Deep South area has a much different culture (overall) than New England, and California has a much different culture than the Mid-West. It's such a diverse country with such a diverse people that it's tough to have one single American culture. To some extent, every town has a different culture.

Then again, we do have the various cultural aspects that maintain true, like you said. And we do have in common the fact that we are generally mixed. Our culture is forming though. The Romans didn't very distinct culture when their republic was in the process of a few hundred years of forming, they were a Greek/Latin hybrid.

[Camarohusky]

I think the nature of American culture, with a lot of it's tendencies being either subtle, like the sliding glass door to the back yard, or heavily rooted in modern culture, like eating in front of the TV. American doesn't have the thousand year old festivals, or dance that other countries have, but we do have a very rich culture. Just b ecause other countries have tried to model their modern state upon our new culture doesn't mean we don't have any.

[tawc]

At 11/26/06 05:17 PM, Camarohusky wrote: I think the nature of American culture, with a lot of it's tendencies being either subtle, like the sliding glass door to the back yard, or heavily rooted in modern culture, like eating in front of the TV. American doesn't have the thousand year old festivals, or dance that other countries have, but we do have a very rich culture. Just b ecause other countries have tried to model their modern state upon our new culture doesn't mean we don't have any.

I thought those sliding doors were called french doors. America has culture, And it's copied a fair amount around the world.
Some people don't like how american culture has spread accross the world, like fast food etc.

But then I can't see what My country has givin the world in the last 50years culturewise apart from Skinheads an Football hooligans.

[Tancrisism]

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote: I thought those sliding doors were called french doors.

Freedom doors.

[cellardoor6]

At 11/26/06 06:56 PM, Tancrisism wrote:

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote: I thought those sliding doors were called french doors.

Freedom doors.

Hahahaha.

But anyway, America doesn't need to have a singular culture. We are a nation of immigrants, with the most diverse ethnic, religious, and social make up in the world, people can just adopt whatever part of culture they want or just make up their own and behave accordingly.

The thing that unites most Americans are not their race or the culture of their nation of origin. Our culture IS our diversity and lack of a singular culture.

I have European ancestors and Jewish-Lebanese ancestors. I don't emulate either of these cultures, but I don't really give a fuck because I consider myself to be American first and foremost, and my culture is a reflection of my upbringing in where I live in the US.

[Gunter45]

I think part of it stems from the fact that America is still a relatively new nation. Other nations have had hundreds and thousands of years to really establish a rich history. I won't argue that America doesn't have a culture, we certainly do, it's just kind of a shallow culture, in a substantitive sense. It seems like that could be seen as inferior to older traditions and customs by some.

[AndrocIes]

I hate all the focus on ethnic backgrounds, why can't we all just say that we're humans from Earth? We won't get along as a race if people keep grouping others or themselves into sects.

[Tancrisism]

At 11/26/06 10:54 PM, AndrocIes wrote: I hate all the focus on ethnic backgrounds, why can't we all just say that we're humans from Earth? We won't get along as a race if people keep grouping others or themselves into sects.

Agreed.

Back to your friend though, she should realize that the English have a HUGE history. Romans, Celtics, Gaelics, Normans, Anglos, Saxons, Stonehenge, Big Ben, yada. And New England really does have a decent culture of its own. The fact that most stores are still closed on Sundays due to Puritan heritage would constitute as culture, I would think. It's just become engrained. In a hundred or two hundred years, if all stays swell, we will have a very strong culture I think.

[qygibo]

Actually, I'd think she does have a reason to object. It's been determined that oftentimes, white European Americans are the least in tune with their family history and culture. European American ancestors were able to blend in easily and would oftentimes do it to the point of obscuring their past so that they would fit in with other Americans.

There's talk in this forum about how we as Americans have a culture, but I'd wonder--can you actually define it? Because I've not been able to.

[cellardoor6]

At 11/27/06 03:22 AM, qygibo wrote:

There's talk in this forum about how we as Americans have a culture, but I'd wonder--can you actually define it? Because I've not been able to.

I define our culture as the LACK OF a singular culture. Our culture IS diversity. We pride ourselves as Americans because our nation is incredibly diverse.

If America had a singular culture then it wouldn't be too exciting to live here would it?

[Sir-S-Of-TURBO]

At 11/27/06 04:03 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

If America had a singular culture then it wouldn't be too exciting to live here would it?

You still have people who go mental and shoot everyone at their school. Make more of those people and you can actually get a exciting culture whilest it can be all boring people who benefit from it.

[Camarohusky]

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote: I thought those sliding doors were called french doors. America has culture, And it's copied a fair amount around the world.

Haha, no.

[cellardoor6]

At 11/27/06 04:16 AM, Sir-S-Of-ROFL wrote:

At 11/27/06 04:03 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

If America had a singular culture then it wouldn't be too exciting to live here would it?

You still have people who go mental and shoot everyone at their school. Make more of those people and you can actually get a exciting culture whilest it can be all boring people who benefit from it.

That was completely irrelevant and made no sense but besides, there have been more school shootings in other places of the world than in the US. People just pay a disproportionate amount of attention to it because it is taking place in America.

[Camarohusky]

At 11/27/06 04:03 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I define our culture as the LACK OF a singular culture. Our culture IS diversity. We pride ourselves as Americans because our nation is incredibly diverse.

That is not true in any sense. Our culture may be the unitarians, or the English Language, of culture in that we have taken a little from everyone and then added some of our own, but I would have to seriously disagree that our culture is not singular. Yes there are differences, but look at every other so-called homogenous culture. Sapporo to Nagasaki, Beijing to Guangzhou, Berlin to Munchen, Marseilles to Paris. We think of Japanese, Chinese, German and French to all be one culture, but the cultures in these paired places is very different. Just like From Boston to Houston to Seattle to North Dakota. We may be different, but we are all part of the singular American culture.

We all love driving. We all cherish sliding glass doors :p, we for the most part all love our American sports (baseball, football and basketball,) we all for the most part like hamburgers and barebcues and 4th of july and soda and camping and fishing and TV and the beach.

American culture is not the only culture to be adopted, or share roots with other countries. Look at a Japanese Temple and a Chinese Temple. Look at Early Indian Buddhist Statues and ancient Greek statues. Finally (my personal favorite) listen to traditional Mexican music and Bavarian music. You will find that these paires are all similar, yet we don't consider Japanese culture to be part of Chinese culture, or Chinese culture to be non-existant. We don't consider ancient Indian and ancient Greek to be the same. We definitely don't consider Mexican culture to be ANYTHING like German. B ut like these other examples the cultures took what they found, or what they shared and made it completely their own, just like the US has.

If America had a singular culture then it wouldn't be too exciting to live here would it?

I personally like everything I listed off earlier, and that's all unified accross the US, and I still like to live in the US.

[cellardoor6]

At 11/27/06 05:00 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/27/06 04:03 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I define our culture as the LACK OF a singular culture. Our culture IS diversity. We pride ourselves as Americans because our nation is incredibly diverse.

We may be different, but we are all part of the singular American culture.

I don't think so.

We all love driving.

Thats not true. I live in Seattle like you do, and I fucking HATE driving. I drive my fucking electric Mo-ped to work. Alot of Americans are the same way. If I had a bike I would probably ride it instead.

Not all Americans love driving. Alot of Americans in large cities almost always walk or travel via bus, taxi or subway.

We all cherish sliding glass doors :p

Eh?

we for the most part all love our American sports (baseball, football and basketball,)

I hate baseball and basketball. I like gridiron football (go Seahawks) and thats about it in terms of conventional sports. Paintball is my game.

And I know plenty of other Americans who don't give a crap about our sports.

we all for the most part like hamburgers and barebcues and 4th of july and soda and camping and fishing and TV and the beach.

You got ME there. But I know all Americans don't like those things, I think you're just identifying the traditional post-card American which is dwindling in numbers. I think those days are almost gone.

I know plenty of Americans who are vegatarian, who hate 4th of july due to their wacky liberal nonsense, who drink nothing but tea and water, and who hate the outdoors and so forth.

If America had a singular culture then it wouldn't be too exciting to live here would it?

I personally like everything I listed off earlier, and that's all unified accross the US, and I still like to live in the US.

I don't think the things you listed are a shared culture in the entire country. People from different areas of the US, and who make up different political and social-economic segments of our country behave and think differently.

Go to Texas and the people of the predominant culture love the outdoors, barbecue, beer, shooting guns and that type of thing. Then go to San Francisco and you have people who are very indoor-oriented, who rarely if ever eat American food, who despise firearms of all sorts, and who might as well be French when compared to Texans. These people have nothing in common politically, religiously, culturally, and so forth the only thing that unites them is that they live in the same country, under the same government.

I don't think the US has a singular culture, I think that alot of the typical middle-class, bright-eyed Americans living 'the dream' share a single culture, but there are many more different cultures within the US without a unifying cultural characteristic.

[Camarohusky]

At 11/27/06 05:30 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Hey Look! I'm a troll!

Seriously, there's no need to argue here. You act as if EVERYONE must like a certain cultural aspect for it to be part of the culture.

A lot of Japanese don't like Noh.
A lot of English don't like soccer.
A lot of Chinese don't play Chinese Chess.
A lot of Canadians don't like hockey.
A lot of Germans hate bavarian music.
Not every Brazilian enjoys Carnivale.
A lot of Indians aren't Hindu.

Yet we still consider all of these things as staple parts of their parent cultures.

[cellardoor6]

At 11/27/06 05:38 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/27/06 05:30 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Hey Look! I'm a troll!

??? Just because I call you on your nonsense means I'm a troll?

You are wrong, I'm not going to concede just to avoid hurting your feelings.

Seriously, there's no need to argue here. You act as if EVERYONE must like a certain cultural aspect for it to be part of the culture.

I never said that, I just showed that your analogy was wrong.

[Camarohusky]

At 11/27/06 05:51 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: ??? Just because I call you on your nonsense means I'm a troll?

Let's see...

Argues against point that is right.
Argues against point that isn't meant to include everyone, saying it didn't iclude everyone...
Get's mad about a non-personal issue.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck.

Troll.

[Imperator]

You are wrong, I'm not going to concede just to avoid hurting your feelings.

No, you're not going to concede because you're way too thickheaded and stubborn to see another person's viewpoint as possibly better than your own.

[SmilingAssasin]

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote:
But then I can't see what My country has givin the world in the last 50years culturewise apart from Skinheads an Football hooligans.

James Bond......... and i know it wasnt in the last 50 years but the worlds first computer was made by the english.

[RedSkunk]

At 11/27/06 04:48 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote: I thought those sliding doors were called french doors. America has culture, And it's copied a fair amount around the world.

Haha, no.

Yeah, French doors are two doors, but they swing. Sliding glass doors are.. Well. Sliding glass doors.

At 11/26/06 10:53 PM, Gunter45 wrote: I think part of it stems from the fact that America is still a relatively new nation. Other nations have had hundreds and thousands of years to really establish a rich history.

Off the top of my head.. Aren't most modern European nations younger than the US? Definitely almost every country in Africa, S. & Latin America, the Middle East, and Asia... I don't think this particular argument holds water.

[SirLebowski]

My mother spends a lot of her time, a LOT of her time, attempting to trace our heritage.

As it can be expected we have family members from Germany, Ireland, Italy, England.

I watch the food network and always see shows of these Italian families who have all this food and things unique to their heritage, and I get jealous. My family is so spread out over the map that none of us really have this unique connection with a certain country. And it's not because we don't want to, either.

I guess I am just forced to be a blank-slate America. =(

[qygibo]

At 11/27/06 05:51 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I never said that, I just showed that your analogy was wrong.

No, his analogy isn't necessarily wrong. He just handed you a dish of your logic back to you and you got all mad as a result. You argue that because you don't like X that means that it isn't particularly a part of a culture; a person from, say, Mexico, may dislike mariachi music even though we see that as a part of their culture.

[Imperator]

At 11/27/06 03:22 AM, qygibo wrote: Actually, I'd think she does have a reason to object. It's been determined that oftentimes, white European Americans are the least in tune with their family history and culture. European American ancestors were able to blend in easily and would oftentimes do it to the point of obscuring their past so that they would fit in with other Americans.

There's talk in this forum about how we as Americans have a culture, but I'd wonder--can you actually define it? Because I've not been able to.

Define "British culture", or "English Culture". Define what it means to be "French, German, Japanese". Define what it means to be Roman, Greek, Persian, Asian, Russian, Latvian, Serbian, Yugoslavian, etc.

Americans indeed have a culture, as do every country listed above. But if you're trying to pigeonhole it into a single unified definition, you're in deep shit. I can almost guarantee that if you asked anyone about their own culture they'd have difficulty defining it.

But if you asked them to define another culture, they would be ready.

If you really want a singular definitions of what "American" means, you need to ask a specific group outside and probably ignorant of the US. Meaning, you should ask Europeans, Africans, etc. Specific geological areas will probably conform fairly well to a single definition, but I'd doubt that they would be applicable universally......

Off the top of my head.. Aren't most modern European nations younger than the US?

Guess that would be wholly dependant on where you define "modern". Where along history can you consider England as "England"?

Does English history go all the way back to when it was a Roman province? If so, wouldn't that period make it distinctly ROMAN and not English?

There's all sorts of ways to interpret history.........

James Bond......... and i know it wasnt in the last 50 years but the worlds first computer was made by the english.

The car was invented long before Henry Ford. But it was Americans who made these products internationally known and usable.

Etruscans invented the arch. Romans perfected it. Yet we tend to give most credit to the Romans for "inventing" it. Perhaps credit is best due to whoever makes the product the most influential to everyday life? Again, there's always several ways of interpreting things.....

[TheMason]

RS,

I think what may be going on with this student is that she is getting experience that is challenging her worldview and she is getting exposed to a different culture. Having been raised in the US, the norms and mores of American culture are second nature to her thus she is not realizing that she conforms to cultural norms, behavior, expectations, etc on a daily basis. Going to Ghana she had to learn new things every day, kindof like a child starting the socialization process.

So now she has this experience with a homogeneous culture to compare US culture with. Faced with expanded knowledge she is probably wondering if America really has a culture since it is heterogeneous in nature. I imagine a Roman traveling abroad would feel the same way visiting Greece, Egypt, Germania, Gual, etc. "Rome has no culture, just what we take from other cultures and assimilate!" Our imaginary traveler would have thought, if he had any depth of thought and was predisposed to think of such things.

But yet he would be wrong; just as your classmate is. Upon returning he would slip back into whatever role he filled in Roman society. He would go to the Colosseum to watch the games. He would laugh at the pornographic "street art" of vandals. He would go to bath houses. He would kiss his wife to see what she had for dinner.

Eventually he would come to the conclusion that there really is a Roman culture. Afterall, our traveler lived in a time when Roman power was hegemonic (a euphemism for Imperial) and Rome was the cultural center of the West. The only difference is that Roman culture was not tied to racial identity like Gual, Germania, Egypt, etc. Roman culture blended parts of differing cultures to make one that is distinct and more dynamic than cultures based primarily upon racial or nationalistic traits.

I am confident that in time your classmate will reach this conclusion. Right now she is processing new information that is forcing her to look at the world and her upbringing in a new way. Afterall, American culture is not homogeneous like say Japan, Korea or Iraq. Yet New York is considered by many to be the cultural center for much of the world...

Just give her time...

[TheMason]

At 11/27/06 09:21 AM, SmilingAssasin wrote:

At 11/26/06 06:09 PM, tawb wrote:

James Bond......... and i know it wasnt in the last 50 years but the worlds first computer was made by the english.

James Bond you say? I wonder; is America ready for a British James Bond?

[qygibo]

At 11/27/06 11:50 AM, Imperator wrote:

Americans indeed have a culture, as do every country listed above. But if you're trying to pigeonhole it into a single unified definition, you're in deep shit. I can almost guarantee that if you asked anyone about their own culture they'd have difficulty defining it.

But if you asked them to define another culture, they would be ready.

If you really want a singular definitions of what "American" means, you need to ask a specific group outside and probably ignorant of the US. Meaning, you should ask Europeans, Africans, etc. Specific geological areas will probably conform fairly well to a single definition, but I'd doubt that they would be applicable universally......

That is what outsiders do to define a particular culture--we pigeonhole it. In a way, oftentimes we know more about a country's history than we do about their present day culture (except if that present day culture just seems so outrageous compared to our own).