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i want you all to read this statement 1000 times and memorize it.

"To those who dont beleive, no explanation will suffice. To those who do, no explanation is nessesary."

Here's another one;

"Live and let live."

Therefore, this discussion is fruitless.

NOFRUIT4YOU

At 4/25/07 09:26 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: NOFRUIT4YOU

Indeed for I bear all the fruits and it is quite bountiful.

At 4/25/07 03:30 AM, Imperator wrote: Your skepticism is appalling. Not everyone lives as fortunate as you.

Do you mean at my level, or higher. Because a lot of people are at my level and about 60-70% are there and higher.

But then again you could argue people dont live as fortunate as those who have no jobs or houses. Like aborted fetis's, or children born into slavery.
The point being that there is always someone worse off than you, what you said is just retarded.

And where do you think they get the ideas for Hallmark movies anyways?

Off the top of my head, the whole point is that you brought up such an overused cliche. Try something original.

There you go. Single mothers, raising kids, and puttin em through expensive education to boot.

Did I say that stuff like that doesnt happen? No, I said that you would have a hard time finding a good example of it. But I forgot to take in the account that this is the internet, and some news companies will show anything.

Single mothers ARE divine.

Tell me, why is someone that struggels and succeeds is considered divine? It takes away the meaning and effort that person put into what they did. Its not like they had things put onto their lap that would make things easier, their strength put them through that.

Just like other single mothers dont have the strength to mother a child alone, its not like thats to be expected.

What people can do in such circumstances, and do consistently for their entire lives, is something that simply defies physics, logic, and science.

And I would suppose that you believe the guy who cut off his own arm with a rusty pocket knife when pinned under a rock is also divine huh?

And examples you can experience on your own:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you truly believe something to be magnificent and holy, then it will apear to be to you.

Those are my personal divine experiences. If you haven't felt such an experience yet,

To me, pictures like this are the closest things to holy vision for me.

At 4/25/07 09:22 PM, Imperator wrote: Or even people giving change to the homeless, picking up trash, or working for Habitat for Humanity. Does any of that constitute evidence? You can assure me you need "more than a single mother", but you won't tell me what you need!!

I have no idea what it will take to prove that god exists. You say simple acts of kindness prove that god exists, what do you say about god when someone shoots up 32 college folk? If a mom raising a college graduate is proof that god exists, then what about a mother who raises a crack baby to lead a life of crime? I'm sorry, but in my 35 years alive on this planet I have yet to see anything that proved to me beyond a doubt that god exists.

Religious folk are basically brainwashed (you know, systematic indoctrination) from childhood to believe in god. I haven't been taught to believe or not believe, I have made up my mind through my life experiences.

Touchy subject....perhaps it wasn't a good idea to start this topic?

The problem of god's existence is not nearly well-defined enough to pretend we have evidence for, against, or even a lack of evidence.

Ignosticism, hurrah.

At 4/26/07 12:02 AM, bcdemon wrote:
I have no idea what it will take to prove that god exists. You say simple acts of kindness prove that god exists, what do you say about god when someone shoots up 32 college folk? If a mom raising a college graduate is proof that god exists, then what about a mother who raises a crack baby to lead a life of crime? I'm sorry, but in my 35 years alive on this planet I have yet to see anything that proved to me beyond a doubt that god exists.

Remember now, God works in mysterious ways. When you see a crack baby, I see someone in need. That's where we have the divine come into play. A troubled teen shoots up VT and leaves a tragic path of destruction. Out of this we've seen magnificent acts of kindness, caring, and compassion. There is now a large movement to make sure no kid EVER feels the way Cho did. You can even go one step deeper and use the Holocaust. What came out of it? Geneva conventions, humanitarian organizations, and the willpower to make sure it never happens again. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, and history shows that. We've went from human sacrafice, to slavery, to concubines, to "All men are created equal". In my mind, human compassion like that shows a divine spark.

And in your 35 years of life, you probably won't see anything that proves to you beyond a doubt that God exists.....but then again, that's why it's called faith.....

My point here was that you asked for proof that God exists, but you yourself cannot give the criteria for such proof. So how can I prove God exists if you will simply shoot down whatever I might consider evidence? This is where I have a problem with many atheists, as it shows a lack of respect and willingness to understand the other side's perspective that leads to the "that's not proof!" comments.

Maybe it IS as simple as a beautiful sunset, and the warm feeling you get helping out someone less fortunate than you? How do you know that my criteria isn't correct?

Religious folk are basically brainwashed (you know, systematic indoctrination) from childhood to believe in god. I haven't been taught to believe or not believe, I have made up my mind through my life experiences.

Brainwashed? This is the type of egocentric attitude that does not make for healthy interactions. Do you think I'm simply some brainwashed peon? Do you really think parents don't allow children the choice as they grow older? cause if that's the case, then of course nothing I can say will change that attitude. I prefer to debate with people more open-minded individuals.

If theists are brainwashed, what are atheists? The subjects that failed to be brainwashed? The "elite"? The smart ones?

At 4/26/07 12:40 AM, Imperator wrote:

At 4/26/07 12:02 AM, bcdemon wrote:
I have no idea what it will take to prove that god exists. You say simple acts of kindness prove that god exists, what do you say about god when someone shoots up 32 college folk? If a mom raising a college graduate is proof that god exists, then what about a mother who raises a crack baby to lead a life of crime? I'm sorry, but in my 35 years alive on this planet I have yet to see anything that proved to me beyond a doubt that god exists.

Remember now, God works in mysterious ways. When you see a crack baby, I see someone in need. That's where we have the divine come into play. A troubled teen shoots up VT and leaves a tragic path of destruction. Out of this we've seen magnificent acts of kindness, caring, and compassion. There is now a large movement to make sure no kid EVER feels the way Cho did. You can even go one step deeper and use the Holocaust. What came out of it? Geneva conventions, humanitarian organizations, and the willpower to make sure it never happens again. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, and history shows that. We've went from human sacrafice, to slavery, to concubines, to "All men are created equal". In my mind, human compassion like that shows a divine spark.

And in your 35 years of life, you probably won't see anything that proves to you beyond a doubt that God exists.....but then again, that's why it's called faith.....

My point here was that you asked for proof that God exists, but you yourself cannot give the criteria for such proof. So how can I prove God exists if you will simply shoot down whatever I might consider evidence? This is where I have a problem with many atheists, as it shows a lack of respect and willingness to understand the other side's perspective that leads to the "that's not proof!" comments.

Maybe it IS as simple as a beautiful sunset, and the warm feeling you get helping out someone less fortunate than you? How do you know that my criteria isn't correct?

Religious folk are basically brainwashed (you know, systematic indoctrination) from childhood to believe in god. I haven't been taught to believe or not believe, I have made up my mind through my life experiences.

Brainwashed? This is the type of egocentric attitude that does not make for healthy interactions. Do you think I'm simply some brainwashed peon? Do you really think parents don't allow children the choice as they grow older? cause if that's the case, then of course nothing I can say will change that attitude. I prefer to debate with people more open-minded individuals.

If theists are brainwashed, what are atheists? The subjects that failed to be brainwashed? The "elite"? The smart ones?

You've said some great things here, Imperator. Being the agnostic I am, I still don't see all that as evidence of the sort of conventional God we hear about in most major religions. I still think that there is more to the universe than what we say... and it is perfectly possible that there IS a God. However I am not convinced of what exactly the nature of it is that we do not see, and I would not go as far as to assume it to be such a specific definition of God. I consider both strict atheism and strict devotion to a religion to be illogical, but that is only my personal opinion and I try not to insult people for simply being theists. That only makes people more close-minded. I don't think all theists are brainwashed. Everyone is entitled to their own view of the universe.

First you have to decide which god you want proven or disproven.

Because there are literally an infinite number of possible "god"s capable of creating the universe, disproving them all is obviously out of the question.

The most compelling evidence (read: not proof) against an omnipotent deity is the fact that either logic or free will would be illusory (most likely both). So basically you need to choose: Which do you feel is more important, logic and free will or God?

Some choose one, some choose the other, some ignore the question.

At 4/26/07 12:40 AM, Imperator wrote: Maybe it IS as simple as a beautiful sunset, and the warm feeling you get helping out someone less fortunate than you? How do you know that my criteria isn't correct?

Or maybe that's an evolutionary response to helping the survival of the species...

If theists are brainwashed, what are atheists? The subjects that failed to be brainwashed? The "elite"? The smart ones?

Duh!

Ugh, we need to revive heathenry... f'reals yo.

Some choose one, some choose the other, some ignore the question.

And some (like me) simply never fully comprehend the quetsion. Haha!

Being the agnostic I am, I still don't see all that as evidence of the sort of conventional God we hear about in most major religions

What you actually might find interesting to do is to take a few theology courses in an academic setting. They'll allow you to better understand the different religions and how people live with them. I think you'd be surprised, I don't think theists are as strict about their faiths as you would hear otherwise. Most are not of the "Convert the heathens!" mentality you most often hear in the news or read about online......

Tacos:

Go here and add what you can to our talks there. You'll find it completely devoid of insults in debating religion. We need fresh blood in there anyways, since the concepts we discuss actually require (for me at least) quite a bit of thought before posting.....hence the reason it has a whopping 900 views and less than 75 replies. Not bad for a religion thread on NG.

At 4/26/07 12:56 AM, Ravariel wrote: Or maybe that's an evolutionary response to helping the survival of the species...

Could be. Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar after all.....

Ugh, we need to revive heathenry... f'reals yo.

Yeah....I just fried my brains with two final papers, so I'm a little out of it for that level of debate at the moment......my intellect no speaky good u now? loolz...

*drools and stares blankly at computer screen*

At 4/26/07 12:40 AM, Imperator wrote: Remember now, God works in mysterious ways. When you see a crack baby, I see someone in need. That's where we have the divine come into play. A troubled teen shoots up VT and leaves a tragic path of destruction. Out of this we've seen magnificent acts of kindness, caring, and compassion. There is now a large movement to make sure no kid EVER feels the way Cho did. You can even go one step deeper and use the Holocaust. What came out of it? Geneva conventions, humanitarian organizations, and the willpower to make sure it never happens again. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, and history shows that. We've went from human sacrafice, to slavery, to concubines, to "All men are created equal". In my mind, human compassion like that shows a divine spark.

You're just taking simple human feelings as divine intervention. So after this large movement, if a kid who feels like Cho did shoots up another school, then what do you believe of that? You say the person who helps a crack baby is divine, well what about the crack baby itself? Or a vicious murderer, you say the rules that follow him are divine, well what about him? What is your explanation of him in regards to gods existence?

And in your 35 years of life, you probably won't see anything that proves to you beyond a doubt that God exists.....but then again, that's why it's called faith.....

Ahh, so god is like a 5 year olds imaginary friend? Something you firmly believe in but can't prove exists.

My point here was that you asked for proof that God exists, but you yourself cannot give the criteria for such proof. So how can I prove God exists if you will simply shoot down whatever I might consider evidence? This is where I have a problem with many atheists, as it shows a lack of respect and willingness to understand the other side's perspective that leads to the "that's not proof!" comments.

I don't care if you don't like atheists, but don't disrespect me by calling me one. I have yet to deny gods existence, I just asked the topic starter to prove it exists before even thinking about proving it doesn't.

Maybe it IS as simple as a beautiful sunset, and the warm feeling you get helping out someone less fortunate than you? How do you know that my criteria isn't correct?

We don't know if your criteria is right or wrong. You may believe it's correct, but that doesn't make it factual. How do you know for sure that a crack baby isn't a sign that god does not exist? Or a war killing millions of innocent people?

Brainwashed? This is the type of egocentric attitude that does not make for healthy interactions. Do you think I'm simply some brainwashed peon? Do you really think parents don't allow children the choice as they grow older? cause if that's the case, then of course nothing I can say will change that attitude. I prefer to debate with people more open-minded individuals.

I really think that being sent to church every Sunday (and sometimes during the week) to be told of gods existence is a type of brainwashing. You aren't given any undeniable proof that god exists, you are just told over and over again that he does. And I know parents give the child the choice when they grow up. But how long does it take to plant a seed inside someones head?

See, it's hard for someone to come up with a set of rules to prove gods existence, because god is a belief. Proving a car is fast is easy, run it down a quarter mile strip. Proving a stove burner is hot is easy, touch it. But unlike religion, these aren't beliefs, they are actual facts.

At 4/26/07 09:16 AM, bcdemon wrote:

See, it's hard for someone to come up with a set of rules to prove gods existence, because god is a belief. Proving a car is fast is easy, run it down a quarter mile strip. Proving a stove burner is hot is easy, touch it. But unlike religion, these aren't beliefs, they are actual facts.

Awwww, did you figure that out all by yourself?

Here we go again, page after page of proving... nothing!

At 4/25/07 07:18 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 4/25/07 10:55 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

What I find pathetic is that someone who believes in god as taught here on earth by one of a myrid of different religions, considers only their particular religions teachings to be correct.

What I find pathetic is that you're trying to fight against something you don't even believe exists.

It is your narrow minded , highly controled thought processes about God which is the real pathetic point here.

I am not at all against there being a God in this universe. I am against others telling me if I don't do what they say is required I am against god somehow. It isn't true.

Have fun with that.

;I am having a great time & a wonderful Fun FIlled Life.

I don't think god is real if he was no one would suffer right?

At 4/26/07 11:53 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

It is your narrow minded , highly controled thought processes about God which is the real pathetic point here.

And no one is arguing that!

Huzzah!

I am not at all against there being a God in this universe. I am against others telling me if I don't do what they say is required I am against god somehow. It isn't true.

And yet you've been going around the forum insulting people based on there shere premise that they believe in God.

You're not exactly helping yourself on that one.

I am having a great time & a wonderful Fun FIlled Life.

*rolls eyes* Sure you are... ;)

At 4/26/07 01:03 AM, Imperator wrote:

Some choose one, some choose the other, some ignore the question.

And some (like me) simply never fully comprehend the quetsion. Haha!

Being the agnostic I am, I still don't see all that as evidence of the sort of conventional God we hear about in most major religions

What you actually might find interesting to do is to take a few theology courses in an academic setting. They'll allow you to better understand the different religions and how people live with them. I think you'd be surprised, I don't think theists are as strict about their faiths as you would hear otherwise. Most are not of the "Convert the heathens!" mentality you most often hear in the news or read about online......

Being a former Christian I know that most Christians are not the fundamentalists you hear about, just as most nonreligious people are not Richard Dawkins. The problem is the fundamentalists that try to take the vote away from the majority of moderates who promote intolerance and often end up preaching and practicing the opposite of the core values of their religion. (like loving your neighbor as yourself)

Tacos:

Go here and add what you can to our talks there. You'll find it completely devoid of insults in debating religion. We need fresh blood in there anyways, since the concepts we discuss actually require (for me at least) quite a bit of thought before posting.....hence the reason it has a whopping 900 views and less than 75 replies. Not bad for a religion thread on NG.

Thanks man. :D

At 4/26/07 06:52 PM, Memorize wrote: And yet you've been going around the forum insulting people based on there shere premise that they believe in God.

MY lord are you ever dense, you got to have a head that runs 900 on the periodic table.
Religion...Religion as made up by men, dictated to others so they can consolidate power & control over others.
That is what I rail on.
The stupidity of the organised religions.
Has nothing to do with god.
Nothing what so ever.

You're not exactly helping yourself on that one.

I am astounded at your inability to see a difference.

Wow, well i am way to ADD to read all of that but heres my athiest related thoughts:

1) people are athiest because they are smart enough to question things, I mean, if Isac Newton diddnt question why apples fall we wudda never know about gravity so we know questioning is a good thing. Well I think ppl are athiest b/c they question any one religion, i mean if every religion says they are right how do i know which to choose. I was responding to another post today and I was kinda sayin that what if a christian dies, finds out that the Hindu gods are the real ones, they hate him now, and he goes to hell anyway! see, athiest are just open minded enough to question anything....

2) Just because your athiest does not mean you hate god, it means you dont believe in him. Like an athiest can still believe in all the messages in the bible, the ten commandments, and all of those morals to heart, but they do not believe there is a god.

3) athiest people arent lake "YAY! WE ARE DIFFERENT!!" they are just like normal people... you kno, like think of how often you tell someone that you are a (insert your religion here).... ok thats like all of once or twice a year? So saying your athiest once or twice a year is hardly bragging...

i am very sorry to all you americans out there but i live in antartica and GEORGE BUSH SUCKS!!!

At 4/28/07 06:50 PM, bob111unknown wrote:

1) people are athiest because they are smart enough to question things, I mean, if Isac Newton diddnt question why apples fall we wudda never know about gravity so we know questioning is a good thing.

What makes you think someone who is religious will not question things?

At 4/25/07 08:45 PM, Grammer wrote: Even fucking Richard Dawkins on The `O Reilly Factor a few days ago admitted atheists couldn't explain how the world came to be.

When Richard Dawkins concedes a point favorable to the faithful, you know it's true.

I am glad he didnt, 'cause that would be cocky. people who say they know the answer, either being sure there is no god or there is (many religious dogs) are cocky. But to interpretet as 'favorable to the faithfull' is just stupid.

i already did damnit.

At 4/26/07 06:34 PM, yoshiclass wrote: I don't think god is real if he was no one would suffer right?

I think god wants us to solve our own problems.

Okay, I'm 99.9% sure that Woody Allen is Jewish and 100% sure that Marlon Brando is dead, so he isn't exactly in the position to talk about his religious views, or lack thereof.

At 4/30/07 07:29 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: Okay, I'm 99.9% sure that Woody Allen is Jewish and 100% sure that Marlon Brando is dead, so he isn't exactly in the position to talk about his religious views, or lack thereof.

Woody Allen quotes:

"How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?"

"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."

"Not only is there no God, but try getting a plumber on weekends."

Besides, it is very much possible to be a Jew and an atheist at the same time.
Read about it here!

As for Marlon Brando, yes, he is dead. He died July 1, 2004.

I found Jesus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipq89qi0ghQ&mo de=related&search=

And sol, if you want people to worship you, you need to offer something on par with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM4x7Plc8QA&wa tch_response

Maybe it's lack of sleep but I'm lmao...