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The chaos theory means there is a pattern to all the atoms, its just impossible to calculate. :P The fact that a pattern exists is enough to be able to say free will is an illusion.

two words:
look up.

hah, it's great to be agnostic, no one can get really pissed at you.

At 11/21/06 03:45 PM, beardofchuck wrote: The chaos theory means there is a pattern to all the atoms, its just impossible to calculate. :P The fact that a pattern exists is enough to be able to say free will is an illusion.

No, it doesn't. Chaos theory only pertains to certain systems where there appears to be random "chaos" but in fact the system is deterministic. This does not apply to the entire Universe or humanity, as far as we currently know, because of a quantum effects and other non-deterministic variables we believe are involved. Additionally, effective indeterminism is automatically spawned from an exceedingly large or infinite number of variables, which makes a deterministic system not, for all intents and purposes.

God does exist case closed

At 11/21/06 03:23 PM, UnusQuoMeridianus wrote: not again. *sigh*

Exactly. This thread will turn into a lot of to sanctimonious bickering and e-penis measuring like every other "does god exist on not?" topics.

What would disprove a lot of arugments against God was throwing away the "all perfect" aspect. Prehaps their is a God but he is just a big, stupid, asshole who doesn't care about any other existence but his own?

This would open up more questions than it answered those.

At 11/21/06 05:07 PM, Onizero wrote: God does exist case closed

Fantastic!

The next step is to prove it.

At 11/21/06 06:12 PM, Erkie wrote:

At 11/21/06 05:07 PM, Onizero wrote: God does exist case closed

Fantastic!

The next step is to prove it.

Why? So people can take shortcuts in order to affirm faith?

chaos theory:
patterns and unpredictibility more or less

What the fuck are you talking about? Go read the 'America by the numbers' article in time; your off by a couple of 2 didget numbers there; and while I honestly hate to 'TLDR', I'm not going to read some long ass rant where theres a blatant lie in the first two sentances. Just wanted to point that out.

At 11/21/06 07:03 PM, Lettuceclock wrote: What the fuck are you talking about? Go read the 'America by the numbers' article in time; your off by a couple of 2 didget numbers there; and while I honestly hate to 'TLDR', I'm not going to read some long ass rant where theres a blatant lie in the first two sentances. Just wanted to point that out.

He's pretty close according to the World Fact Book.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook /geos/us.html#People

At 11/21/06 06:17 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Why? So people can take shortcuts in order to affirm faith?

Faith = Whim = Arbitrary = Impulse = Breathing < Rationality.

You pick up a book that gives you an anecdote for every morality in life, then you are told that if you don't follow it, not only will you surely burn in hell but your life will be plagued by god himself.

There's a new interpretation of the bible every few years, I think that gives you a clue on how sure we are.

At 11/21/06 06:12 PM, Erkie wrote:

At 11/21/06 05:07 PM, Onizero wrote: God does exist case closed

Fantastic!

The next step is to prove it.

no, the next step is to believe what you want and stop making God yes/no topics.

Where's poxpower when I need him?

At 11/21/06 10:25 PM, Erkie wrote:

At 11/21/06 06:17 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Why? So people can take shortcuts in order to affirm faith?

Faith = Whim = Arbitrary = Impulse = Breathing < Rationality.

Faith = trust = tested = science = fact.

I can do that, too. The only difference is that I recognize faith =/= involuntary muscle spasms, you dolt.

You pick up a book that gives you an anecdote for every morality in life, then you are told that if you don't follow it, not only will you surely burn in hell but your life will be plagued by god himself.

What makes you think my faith is grounded in a book, and not my whole life?

There's a new interpretation of the bible every few years, I think that gives you a clue on how sure we are.

..what are you talking about? God is within you, my friend.

Prove the God doesn't exist? Why don't you prove that he does?! You can't put so much stock into something that you can't prove! I bet you can't disprove that I'm god. Pray to me then. You can't prove that I'm not god.

At 11/22/06 12:14 AM, airraid81 wrote: You can't prove that I'm not god.

God is your conscience my friend. Collectively, we can recognize the Lord's presence in us all and truly retain Heaven on Earth. But faith isn't an easy thing to find, even harder to keep.

Watching a true man of faith in action is the most inspiring thing I've ever witnessed.

At 11/22/06 12:24 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 11/22/06 12:14 AM, airraid81 wrote:

God is your conscience my friend. Collectively, we can recognize the Lord's presence in us all and truly retain Heaven on Earth. But faith isn't an easy thing to find, even harder to keep.

Watching a true man of faith in action is the most inspiring thing I've ever witnessed.

Beleive whatever you want, but all I'm saying is that you can't come out with the arguement that you can't disprove god, because you can't really disprove anything. For something to be recognized as fact, it has to be proven. I guess it's just hard for religious folks to understand what I'm saying because they are so vehamently dedicated to their faith.

Perhaps god exists to those who believe in him and doesn't exist to those who do not. God's existance (or lack thereof) is a facsimile of the christian / atheist mind. God is a tool by which humans operate a moral code beneath.

Who's to say that the existance of a god must be concrete?

At 11/22/06 12:35 AM, Talcum wrote:

Who's to say that the existance of a god must be concrete?

You first have to define god to have such an arguement, and if god is acctually a thing or a being or whatever religious people say he is, because they always mention him as if he is concrete, than yes, he would either have to exist or not exist. If god were not supposed to be concrete by the starter of this thread, he wouldn't have titled it "Prove God deosn't exist."

At 11/22/06 12:31 AM, airraid81 wrote: For something to be recognized as fact, it has to be proven. I guess it's just hard for religious folks to understand what I'm saying because they are so vehamently dedicated to their faith.

First off, being dedicated to a faith is not the same as having faith. It may be hard for the unfaithful understand what I'm saying because they are so vehemently ignorant of personal faith.

Secondly, it order to prove something, it must be contained. How will you control God, mortal?

If god can exist for no reason then the same should be able to apply to the universe itself.

At 11/21/06 11:01 PM, StealthSteve wrote: Inspiration > Rationality

You're right.

Rape her > Don't rape her.

You give a person a book of parable and metaphor and allow them to connect-the-dots, read between the lines, and perceive a message sublime.

You're saying people take what they want from the bible, which is even worse.

Give a preschooler, a highschool senior, and a professional mathematician

If you intend to say with these three groups, Education level = Age = Intellectuality = Interpretation capability, then that's a problem. Not only is that a generalization, but all three of them are examples of individuals being opressed by the statist invention of "school":

A preschooler doesn't know any better.

A highschooler is mindless. Up to this point anything can be pounded into them, but what they choose to accept is based on their mental state; most of them are depressed because they care what people think about them, making them more inept to things like thinking.
Declaring when they realize they can think whatever they want, that they're such individuals, no matter how much mom or dad hates them. It goes on and on, just look at any profile on myspace.

It's at this point that religion steps in the most.

A professional scholar of religion does indepth symantics and geographical studies of the histories that involved religion. Or maybe just a priest. They often assist in carrying out religious duties.

how much value you should actually be placing on what they say?

It depends on how well they understand the bible, are they devote as they should be or do they just lay around saying they're religious?

If you think I heard about religion from "other people", you're mistaken.

At 11/21/06 11:03 PM, UnusQuoMeridianus wrote: no, the next step is to believe what you want and stop making God yes/no topics.

Agnostics is the easy way out, even when the contradictions are clear.

At 11/21/06 11:53 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: I can do that, too. The only difference is that I recognize faith =/= involuntary muscle spasms, you dolt.

You took it too literally, although I really put no specification into it, you were pretty quick to misinterpret.

Faith is essentially the "ignorance is bliss" of the equation, "is there or isn't there a god?" who knows, just accept him into your conscious and he'll empower you to fulfill his deeds.

Ok, but how does he "enter you" and you "become one" as a special entity or some other epic shit along the same lines? The source, met by your sense of life as it is.

So if this faith is blind submission, then anything you "carry out in the name of god" is based on a whim. The whole concept is ironic in of itself and arbitrary. You become conditioned as to where you live your life by these defining moments, moment by moment. It becomes an impulse. Your life becomes as lifeless and simple as breathing itself. That's how faith correlates to breathing, it's simply an example of it's cog like state in society.

What makes you think my faith is grounded in a book, and not my whole life?

You pick up the book, or hear the anecdotes from people who read it too much, and based on how you accept these stories of morality, it is then bound to become apart of your intellectual capacity.

It's an established ideology; everyone has a philosophy, religious in nature or not, and it assists in their living everyday, so everyone has something "grounded in them", it's simply the source that defines it's nature.

..what are you talking about? God is within you, my friend.

Take a look at all the new books on Amazon about Christianity, everyone attempts to research their own interpretation of the bible by means of how they had lived their lives and had it affected by the bible. Then try to sell it as a method.

That's like plowing a farm with something other then a conventional plow; never mind that the fields will always be dug up by the end of the day, and that's all that matters.

God is within me, but I prefer to call it a brain.

At 11/22/06 01:28 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 11/22/06 12:31 AM, airraid81 wrote:

First off, being dedicated to a faith is not the same as having faith. It may be hard for the unfaithful understand what I'm saying because they are so vehemently ignorant of personal faith.

Fist of all having faith and being dedicated a faith is the same goddamn thing. Look it up in the dictionary. "Have" and "dedicated" are the same fucking thing. Dedication is just more powerful, but not neccesarily. Anyhow, I'd like to hear what the fuck you think the difference is.

Secondly, it order to prove something, it must be contained. How will you control God, mortal?

No one can control god because noone is able to define him. Tell me what the fuck god is then you can get a lot closer. How can you believe in god when you don't know what it is?

At 11/22/06 10:25 AM, airraid81 wrote:

At 11/22/06 01:28 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 11/22/06 12:31 AM, airraid81 wrote:

Fist of all having faith and being dedicated to a faith is the same goddamn thing. Look it up in the dictionary. "Have" and "dedicated" are the same fucking thing. Dedication is just more powerful, but not neccesarily. Anyhow, I'd like to hear what the fuck you think the difference is.

The term "faith" changes once you swap 'have' and 'dedicated to'. I assume you meant an organized religions perspective of faith, while I use faith in the context of confidence.

Like Steve said, faith isn't exclusive to one religion, but it's a major link (and issue) that all humans who hold religious ponderings must address.

What is faith to you? That dictionary. com link you provided? The world is much more complicated than websters.

Secondly, it order to prove something, it must be contained. How will you control God, mortal?

No one can control god because noone is able to define him. Tell me what the fuck god is then you can get a lot closer. How can you believe in god when you don't know what it is?

For the sake of simplicity, think of God as the good little angel on your right shoulder telling you not to lie, cheat and steal, despite your base instinct to survive.

Can you give me the benefit of the doubt here, to at least show you understand where I'm coming from?

At 11/22/06 10:42 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: For the sake of simplicity, think of God as the good little angel on your right shoulder telling you not to lie, cheat and steal, despite your base instinct to survive.

Can you give me the benefit of the doubt here, to at least show you understand where I'm coming from?

I believe you, but that would mean that god is your conscience and most people have a conscience. You don't need to believe in religion to have a consciencse. I'm athiest, but I still try to be fair and just and all.

Now, about the definition of faith. When you put it into the context of this religious debate, "faith" refers to religionous fiath. Obviously I have faith in myself, but this thread is about relgion.

At 11/22/06 10:46 AM, airraid81 wrote:

At 11/22/06 10:42 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: For the sake of simplicity, think of God as the good little angel on your right shoulder telling you not to lie, cheat and steal, despite your base instinct to survive.

Can you give me the benefit of the doubt here, to at least show you understand where I'm coming from?

I believe you, but that would mean that god is your conscience and most people have a conscience.

I contend that this type of conscience-faith is one of the basest identifiers common in nearly all religions. You can't teach conscience, you either have it and follow it, have it and ignore it, or have never been introduced to it, exposed to it and therefore barely human. The people you've seen or read about without consciences, would you believe they try to be fair and just?

You don't need to believe in religion to have a consciencse. I'm athiest, but I still try to be fair and just and all.

May I ask why? What motivates you to be fair and just? If I had to guess, I'd say you try to do so because of a liberal public education (don't take that the wrong way), parents who've always tried to instill those values through love and tenderness, especially through your younger, vulnerable formative years.

Now, about the definition of faith. When you put it into the context of this religious debate, "faith" refers to religionous fiath. Obviously I have faith in myself, but this thread is about relgion.

This thread could be contrued to be about religion, but no denominations were ever used in the topic starters main post, IIRC.

There exists a broader perspective than simply catholic or muslim or shinto. One who studies each for the purpose of greater understanding would be a(n) _____ according to you. When I use faith to try to justify my spiritual beliefs, which religion would you put me in? Just curious.

At 11/22/06 10:56 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

May I ask why? What motivates you to be fair and just? If I had to guess, I'd say you try to do so because of a liberal public education (don't take that the wrong way), parents who've always tried to instill those values through love and tenderness, especially through your younger, vulnerable formative years.

Well, yes that might have something to do with it. I mean, at this point I just don't want to be an asshole to anyone because it's just an asshole thing to do and also they would be an asshole back. Liberal public educations are good that way, but I don't think people coming out of private schools have any less of a conscience.

There exists a broader perspective than simply catholic or muslim or shinto. One who studies each for the purpose of greater understanding would be a(n) _____ according to you. When I use faith to try to justify my spiritual beliefs, which religion would you put me in? Just curious.

I would say Christian just because it is probably the largest religion among users. You can't tell what religion someone is by what they say in an arguement in forums.