Not Another Minimum Wage Topic!!!

[BeFell]

Does this seem fucked up to anyone else?

"For the economy as a whole, a 5 percent increase in the minimum wage leads to a loss of roughly 2.5 percent of all minimum-wage jobs, but the wage bill goes up, so the remaining 97.5 percent of all minimum-wage workers are better off,"

My ignorant little understanding of this tells me they are basically saying, it's ok to screw over a minority of people as long as a benefits a majority.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 09:51 PM, BeFell wrote:

My ignorant little understanding of this tells me they are basically saying, it's ok to screw over a minority of people as long as a benefits a majority.

Tyranny of the majority.

But I would love for that to go up.

For one that gets minium wage, that would be a godsend.

[BeFell]

At 11/16/06 09:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: But I would love for that to go up.

For one that gets minium wage, that would be a godsend.

Um, what if you're in that 2.5%?

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 09:55 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 11/16/06 09:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Um, what if you're in that 2.5%?

I'll take my chances.

See, If I get layed off.

Then I get to collect unemployment.

Right?

[IllustriousPotentate]

At 11/16/06 09:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: But I would love for that to go up.

For one that gets minium wage, that would be a godsend.

Not as much as you would think.

Remember, part of the cost of goods and services is the labor used to create, distribute, and sell those goods and services.

So sure, while you might get a 40% increase in wages, you have to take away the increase in prices because of it.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 10:03 PM, IllustriousPotentate wrote:

At 11/16/06 09:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

So sure, while you might get a 40% increase in wages, you have to take away the increase in prices because of it.

But you see, I barely buy anything as is.

I bank most of my money and contintue to leach off my parents untill the end of highschool.

[Ertyguy]

That's bull cause it meens less chance of getting work let alone keep it

[Draconias]

At 11/16/06 09:51 PM, BeFell wrote: Does this seem fucked up to anyone else?

BeFell, if lost employment was a permanent thing, then yes. But those 2.5% can find better or other jobs. Natural job decreases occur, and people survive. This shouldn't be any different.

Also, increased minimum wages would increase the upward pressure on workers capable of reaching better jobs-- a good thing.

As an alternative to just allowing "anyone" to lose a job, a coordinated elimination of the illegal immigrant problem could easily remove 4% of our total population. That would most definitely remove more minimum wage workers than there are minimum wage jobs.

[BeFell]

At 11/16/06 10:39 PM, Draconias wrote:

At 11/16/06 09:51 PM, BeFell wrote: Does this seem fucked up to anyone else?

BeFell, if lost employment was a permanent thing, then yes. But those 2.5% can find better or other jobs. Natural job decreases occur, and people survive. This shouldn't be any different.

If they could get better jobs why are they working for minimum wage? Also this isn't a natural decrease in employment it's government mandated.

Also, increased minimum wages would increase the upward pressure on workers capable of reaching better jobs-- a good thing.

If anything it will put pressures on the wages of better jobs leading to even more unemployment.

As an alternative to just allowing "anyone" to lose a job, a coordinated elimination of the illegal immigrant problem could easily remove 4% of our total population. That would most definitely remove more minimum wage workers than there are minimum wage jobs.

Yeah we can dream but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[Memorize]

I like how liberals flip the attitude when it comes to minimum wage and property.

Eminant Domain (as long as it benafits society as a whole... even if it means kicking people out of their homes to do it).

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 11:18 PM, Techware wrote:

Eminant Domain (as long as it benafits society as a whole... even if it means kicking people out of their homes to do it).

Thats property, not jobs.

Even the, Eminant Domain can be interperted differently, yet it seems to have no effect on the elite or rich.

[Memorize]

At 11/16/06 11:29 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Thats property, not jobs.

Yes, because kicking people from their homes and only giving them property value and not the cost of moving is an excellent trade off.

Even the, Eminant Domain can be interperted differently, yet it seems to have no effect on the elite or rich.

I don't know, probly because the Rich are doing it.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 11:36 PM, Techware wrote:

At 11/16/06 11:29 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Yes, because kicking people from their homes and only giving them property value and not the cost of moving is an excellent trade off.

Take it up with your congressmen then.

Eminent domain is strictly enforeced to a land and property based deal.
It has no power towards a job.

I don't know, probly because the Rich are doing it.

Sorry, I try to be idealistic.

[Memorize]

At 11/16/06 11:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

It has no power towards a job.

I know that. That wasn't the point.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 11/16/06 11:42 PM, Techware wrote:

At 11/16/06 11:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

I know that. That wasn't the point.

What was your point then, because I may be agreeing with you.

I don't like the new forms of Eminent Domain.

[Elfer]

At 11/16/06 10:46 PM, BeFell wrote: If they could get better jobs why are they working for minimum wage? Also this isn't a natural decrease in employment it's government mandated.

Maybe they're just complacent and are capable of better things but got stuck in a rut and need a jolt to get out of it.

Hell, happened to my brother. Now he's at college again, and he's going to get a real job this time.

[VigilanteNighthawk]

At 11/16/06 09:55 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 11/16/06 09:52 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: But I would love for that to go up.

For one that gets minium wage, that would be a godsend.

Um, what if you're in that 2.5%?

Let go of teens who are doing it to pay for frills. That should account for a good percentage of it.

As for inflation, tie the minimum wage to inflation. Companies won't be able to shift the burden onto the consumer and will have to find some other way cutting costs (like cutting upper management perks, not booking convention centers for meetings, etc). If they don't take this approach in such a situation, they'll only drive inflation and end up hurting themselves in the end.

[ReiperX]

BeFell, why do the states with the highest minimum wage have the best economies?

As far as costs going up, yes they may increase slightly, but its not going to be a 40% increase in overall cost, and thats even if they don't lay anyone off. Unless of course your average person flipping burgers at minimum wage averages 1 burger a day, then it costs 40% more to make. But since they probally make closer to 400+ burgers a day, plus fries, then that little hike in their pay barely even touched the cost to produce what they are making.

[BeFell]

At 11/17/06 07:50 AM, ReiperX wrote: BeFell, why do the states with the highest minimum wage have the best economies?

Source?

As far as costs going up, yes they may increase slightly, but its not going to be a 40% increase in overall cost, and thats even if they don't lay anyone off. Unless of course your average person flipping burgers at minimum wage averages 1 burger a day, then it costs 40% more to make. But since they probally make closer to 400+ burgers a day, plus fries, then that little hike in their pay barely even touched the cost to produce what they are making.

Burger flippers make more than minimum wage. McDonalds measures its labor costs as a percentage of sales meaning that labor should always be a constant percentage of sales, usually about 24%. An increase in pay will push this percentage up meaning one or two things are going to happen. The first thing is people are going to be sent home and not scheduled meaning less or no income for some employees. If it is found that demand can't be met with the reduced capacity then prices are going to go up and some people will come back but everyone's wage gains are going to be diminished meaning the whole process will have to begin again in few months. So as you can see we're looking at two problems, unemployment and inflation specifically spurred by the government. While you may be correct in your claim that inflation will not increase as much as wages this topic is about the unemployment problem you jackass.

[Neoptolemus]

At 11/16/06 09:51 PM, BeFell wrote: Does this seem fucked up to anyone else?

I'll tell you what's fucked up, the fact that the US minimum wage is $5.15 while the minimum wage here is the UK is £5.05. Taking the current exchange rate as of 2006.11.17 19:09:26 UTC we brits on minimum wage get paid $9.56.

Then if you look at me, i'm 18 and earning £5.35 an hour doing a shitty job yet i get paid approx $10.13.

What you Americans should do is aim to get a higher minimum wage as about £2.70 an hour is effectively slavery.

[Begoner]

I'll tell you what's fucked up, the fact that the US minimum wage is $5.15 while the minimum wage here is the UK is £5.05. Taking the current exchange rate as of 2006.11.17 19:09:26 UTC we brits on minimum wage get paid $9.56.

I think it would be more correct if you were to take the PPP of the UK in comparison to the US, as that would demostrate what you could buy with your pound rather than your nominal wage in pounds. Britain's PPP GDP in thousands of dollars is 30.5, while that of the US is 41.5. That means that a typical good in Britain costs 136% what a similar good costs in America. This needs to be taken into account. If you claim that the British minimum wage is $9.50, then the US minimum wage is $5.35 * 1.36 = $7.00. In any case, the minimum wage in the US is ridiculously low. Also, although 2.5% of those working on minimum wage are laid off, long-term benefits are not accounted for. Maybe if someone's pay is increased, they will be able to invest more money and amass a greater amount of wealth. With that, they may be able to start a small business and either hire workers or vacate their previous post, allowing the workers which were previously laid off to acquire that post. The current minimum wage in the US is, in essence, slavery, just like you said.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 11/16/06 11:58 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 11/16/06 10:46 PM, BeFell wrote: If they could get better jobs why are they working for minimum wage? Also this isn't a natural decrease in employment it's government mandated.

Maybe they're just complacent and are capable of better things but got stuck in a rut and need a jolt to get out of it.

Hell, happened to my brother. Now he's at college again, and he's going to get a real job this time.

Minimum wage wasn't designed for people to live in a house and have a family with. Those jobs are really more for teenagers and young adults who are looking for ways to learn money for college, either while renting a cheep apartment or living at their parents house.

Economic Growth --> job specialization --> increased need for education --> Increased pressure on youths to partake in advanced education.

For immigrants, getting yourself up in the realm of natural american citizens is hard, it has been for most immigrants comming to the united states since the beginning. Part of the reason other countries have such high minimum wages, and desirable immigration laws is because they dont have to deal with the constant floods of immigrants who wish to come into their country.

[ReiperX]

At 11/17/06 10:37 AM, BeFell wrote:

At 11/17/06 07:50 AM, ReiperX wrote: BeFell, why do the states with the highest minimum wage have the best economies?

Source?

Always
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/0 5/b1648601.html
* Employment in small businesses grew more (9.4%) in states with higher minimum wages than federal minimum wage states (6.6%) or Ohio.
* Inflation-adjusted small business payroll growth was stronger in high minimum wage states (19.0%) than in federal minimum wage states (13.6%) or Ohio.

More data became available in 1998, allowing further analysis. Between 1998 and 2003:

* The number of small business establishments grew more in higher minimum wage states (5.5%) than in federal minimum wage states (4.2%) or Ohio.
* Small business retail employment grew more in higher minimum wage states (9.2%) than in low minimum wage states (3.0%) or Ohio.
* Retail payroll grew more in higher minimum wage states (12.3%) than in low minimum wage states (6.4%) or Ohio.
* States with high and low minimum wages had similar growth in number of restaurants, restaurant payrolls, and restaurant employment.

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/4660286.html tells both sides of it. 2% - 2.5% decrease in minimum wage jobs in Washington which is about 65k jobs is estimated. Out of millions thats not much.

[Ravariel]

At 11/17/06 03:52 PM, ReiperX wrote: or Ohio.

What's up with Ohio?

GO BLUE!

buck the fuckeyes!

[ironzealot]

Anyone who supports a minimum wage is wearing the ignorance of all things economic on their sleeve.

at best, a minimum wage accomplishes nothing and inflates the national currency

at worst, it results in severe unemployment, more outsourcing, and an overall gutting of the economy.

People don't understand that you can't artificially pump-up the value of one's labor by passing legislation, the economy will simply inflate and everything will be right back where it began, after many people are laid-off of course.

[VigilanteNighthawk]

At 11/17/06 11:08 PM, ironzealot wrote: Anyone who supports a minimum wage is wearing the ignorance of all things economic on their sleeve.

at best, a minimum wage accomplishes nothing and inflates the national currency

at worst, it results in severe unemployment, more outsourcing, and an overall gutting of the economy.

People don't understand that you can't artificially pump-up the value of one's labor by passing legislation, the economy will simply inflate and everything will be right back where it began, after many people are laid-off of course.

Link the minimum wage to inflation. The companies can then either choose to stop giving such large increases to their upper management, or they can drive the economy into the toilet.

As for outsourcing, there aren't any minimum wage jobs that you can outsource. Minimum wage jobs are usually service jobs. Service jobs require people on site to perform the job. At worst, it encourages insourcing, the hiring of illegal immigrants. This practice needs to be penalized for a host of other reasons as well.

Outsourcing usually occurs in job sectors where technology permits the jobs to be sent overseas. These can include a host of activities, from customer service to programming. These jobs require a certain level of skill above minimum wage employment, especially in the case of programming. By your argument, no one in these sectors should get a raise, because this will lead to an increase in outsourcing of their jobs to cut costs.

Since you brought up the ignorance argument, I'll counter by arguing that anyone who doesn't believe in a minimum wage should see what happened when we didn't have one. Underpaying workers, among other abuses such as poor safety conditions, led to massive social unrest in the late 1800's. Thousands of workers went on "strike," which back then could easily end in a shoot out between labor and hired armed security. Of course, we could simply hire more police to should this situation arise again, but then we'd have to take money away from education and public works, still resulting in a net loss of quality of life.

I'm getting fed up with the "omg, teh market will get mad at us for teh regulation," as though the market itself was a force of nature that we have no control over. In reality, the market is a system set up and controlled by people. We are the ones who decide where we spend our money. We are the ones who decide to spend at places that treat their workers like garbage while their executives live like kings to save a buck for ourselves. The idea that we can't give people, hard working people who do the perform the labor needed to sustain our economy enough so that they can support their family and still have time to occassioanally see this is bullshit, especially in the wealthiest nation in the world. Enough is enough.

[JakeHero]

At 11/17/06 03:52 PM, ReiperX wrote:

At 11/17/06 10:37 AM, BeFell wrote:

At 11/17/06 07:50 AM, ReiperX wrote: BeFell, why do the states with the highest minimum wage have the best economies?

Source?

Always
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/0 5/b1648601.html

That site doesn't seem too reliable too me. Especially after I read their article about healthcare reform.