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At 11/10/06 05:22 PM, Techware wrote: I have. It's not hard at all really. Typical teenager stuff, mainly because my friend paid me $20 to do it.

for 20$? an illegal immigrant makes more from wal-mart with all that time.

What I don't get is the total divide in the country and government.

We all can't seem to put aside our differences and come up with solutions that would better ourselfs.

We get spin from both parties and people seem to eat it up like it's knowladge. This country is hurt so much right now and unless our government and people wise up about working together then we are in the long haul to becoming a new Mexico.

At 11/10/06 11:40 AM, KemCab wrote:

At 11/10/06 09:53 AM, Niktik wrote: IF THE DEMOCRATS WON WE would be speaking IN ARABIC

Proof that most Republicans are morons.

Stop acting like the Arabs are actually a threat to us. They aren't.

Proof that democrats turn a blind eye to terrorists! FOLKS! IT'S RIGHT HERE!

"Stop acting like the arabs are actually a threat to us"

That's the kind of thinking that helped 9/11 happen, the apathy, it killed thousands. Proof that they care more about social issues...

Yeah, but everyone who worked in the WTC was a terrorist, so 9/11 was justified.

I mean, I don't have any proof, evidence, or anything at all to back up this claim, but just in case, right?

At 11/11/06 01:32 PM, UnusQuoMeridianus wrote:

for 20$? an illegal immigrant makes more from wal-mart with all that time.

Hey, free money is good enough for me.

The democrats are taking over.

At 11/11/06 08:31 AM, Peter-II wrote: I consider putting someone through hell for the time being and possibly ruining their mental state for years to come as torture.

What the fuck do you think happens when you are in war? You stay the same? No, you sign up knowing full well it may very well change you. Whether better or for worse, you decide, but that is irrevelant. Is war torture now? Or even homework or schoolwork? If you dont do it or get a bad grade, you could become depressed and possibly suicidal. Is that torture?

EVERYTHING affects the psychosis of people. EVERYTHING. That is a weak card to play in my book, the psychosis card. Until you demonstrate to me that waterboarding and sleep deprivation destroys people mentally to the point of insanity, it is not torture. It is just a process in destroying the prisoners will to resist interrogation. The same would happen likely, if given a significant amount of time, you isolated prisoners for a significant amount of time with no means or opportunity to interact with anyone. Is that torture? Breaking a prisoners will?

NO.

Just for shits, lets see what medical evidence you have to back up your claims of what sleep deprivation or water boarding do, anyways. You speak so authoritatively, lets see the evidence.

At 11/10/06 04:52 PM, Peter-II wrote: Techware, you imply that sleep deprivation and waterboarding are only forms of torture if you're "a wuss".

Those arent torture. In my book. Just because you think they are torture doesnt mean they are. Torture implies a very, very extreme act. Pouring water over an ENEMIES head to try to extract information or keeping them from sleep, while they could damage you psychologically, are not torture. Shit, even prision changes people psychologically, does that mean we should stick prisoners into the Waldorf because they might damage their psyches? No.

Water boarding and sleep deprivation are interrogation tactics. Extreme ones BORDERING on torture. But in and of themselves are not torture. You cannot handicap interrogators so much they have nothing left to threat prisoners with if they dont cooperate. If they dont fear you and they dont love you and continue to refuse to cooperate and you know they have valuable information, what do you suggest they do?

Your opinion is just that, an opinion. You are not God or the be all and end all of information relating to torture. Stop pretending to be.

At 11/10/06 05:11 PM, Techware wrote: (which wasn't torture... back then),

"You have to remember what we considerd brutality in the United States is different from what they consided brutality."
-Gen. Ivan Miller when commenting on Haiti

The place or time of turtore has not changed what torture is, brutalization and disgusting morally. You mean to tell me the Japanese torture of American POW's back in WWII wasnt torture? That John McCain didnt sustain torture because it wasnt torture then? That American troops havent tortured before because torture was "different" back then?

:`then this is all very very weak stuff.

As of Sept. 30, war amputees from Iraq and Afghanistan numbered 725, according to Walter Reed Army Medical Center, which also has a military amputee center.
Huh

No shit.

Until you get in uniform you should shut your mouth judging what is and isnt "weak." Lets see you ride around in an APC knowing damn well it is only the roll of a dice whether you might get blown up or not. After that, let me know what you think is tough when your vehicle is on fire and you very well might be too.

At 11/13/06 08:17 AM, BenDoesntFold wrote: The democrats are taking over.

it would've made more sense if you posted a communism related pic.

At 11/13/06 01:04 PM, Demosthenez wrote: EVERYTHING affects the psychosis of people. EVERYTHING. That is a weak card to play in my book, the psychosis card. Until you demonstrate to me that waterboarding and sleep deprivation destroys people mentally to the point of insanity, it is not torture.

I love it, "the psychosis of people". Just shows how little you know about what you are talking about.

Sources: [Dr. Keller] argued that [waterboarding] was indeed torture. Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said.

"Waterboarding is a form of torture"

Destroying people mentally to the point of insanity isn't torture? Then what the hell is torture? Do you really think that torture can't be psychological?

Just for shits, lets see what medical evidence you have to back up your claims of what sleep deprivation or water boarding do, anyways. You speak so authoritatively, lets see the evidence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3376951.s tm

I speak so authoritatively? Ahaahahhahaa, the hypocrisy.

Those arent torture. In my book.

First of all, you say "in my book", then...

Just because you think they are torture doesnt mean they are.

Do you realize just how hypocritical you are? "WELL IT'S MY OPINION THAT SLEEP DEPRIVATION ISN'T TORTURE. YOUR OPINION MIGHT BE WRONG. MY OPINION, HOWEVER, IS FACT..."

Torture implies a very, very extreme act. Pouring water over an ENEMIES head to try to extract information or keeping them from sleep, while they could damage you psychologically, are not torture.

The best thing about your post is you consisently maintain that waterboarding and sleep deprivation aren't torture, yet provide absolutely no reasons why not. Basically you've said little more than my opinion isn't necessarily correct, and that there are things which damage
people psychologically which aren't considered torture. Furthermore, you constantly ask me for me to back up my claims, yet refuse to do so yourself.

Shit, even prision changes people psychologically, does that mean we should stick prisoners into the Waldorf because they might damage their psyches? No.

Another thing, just because I say sleep deprivation and waterboarding are forms of torture doesn't mean I'm against interrogation against alleged terrorists. I have said nothing which would indicate anything of the sort. Do you really think I'm just saying this to push an underlying agenda of mine?

Water boarding and sleep deprivation are interrogation tactics. Extreme ones BORDERING on torture. But in and of themselves are not torture. You cannot handicap interrogators so much they have nothing left to threat prisoners with if they dont cooperate. If they dont fear you and they dont love you and continue to refuse to cooperate and you know they have valuable information, what do you suggest they do?

Why is it you think torture can't be a form of interrogation?

Your opinion is just that, an opinion. You are not God or the be all and end all of information relating to torture. Stop pretending to be.

And yet you're the one that has said over and over again that sleep deprivation and waterboarding aren't forms of torture as a fact, all the while going against the word of Wikipedia, various other encyclopedias, psychologists, neuroscientists and the BBC. Do you seriously think you know better? Your hypocrisy is spellbinding, absolutely fucking amazing.

Sorry, dumping a fucking bucket of water on a person's head isn't comparable to ripping a person's nipples off with chickenwire. You lose, Peter.

At 11/13/06 03:29 PM, Peter-II wrote:

I made a long assed reply to you but I accidentally deleted it so here are the highlights.

1) I stated repeatedly it was my opinion. From now on I will label every sentence with "In my opinion" since you are so special you seem to need a preface for every sentence of mine. Sorry about the confusion.

2) Answers.com is directly lifted from wikipedia. Thanks for the same source twice.

3) I see no medical evidence, none. I see an opnion of a single doctor that is not even a direct quote that even prefaces it is his opinoin: "Dr. Keller argued that. . ." Learn to read and think critically of the shit the media shovels you, oh, and learn to read critically also while you are at it.

4) Until you demonstrate to me that waterboarding and sleep deprivation destroys people mentally to the point of insanity, it is not torture.

I ASKED for you to prove me wrong. I stated what I know from my current knowledge on water boarding, and said in my opinion repeatedly, that it is not torture. You have presented no decent medical information about the permenant and significant lasting harm water boarding does beyond regular imprisonment and linked it to no lasting effects. You have not proven me wrong or changed my opinion and only managed to make an ass of yourself with the insults you have thrown.

Generally speaking, when you speak from such a lofty pedestal and speak to us peasants you should use better sources when trying to prove the permenant and lasting effect of water boarding on detainees than sensationalized news stories, paraphrased quotes, and wikipedia (twice!). Just for future reference.

5) And I would greatly appreciate if you wouldnt state what I believe. I never said you were wrong, I never claimed my opinions was right or fact, I never claimed you had some underlying motive (nothing even fucking CLOSE to that, not sure how you pulled that one out of your ass and managed to pin it on me). Honestly, chill the fuck out with what I have to say. If I have something to say on this, you will be the first to know. Until then debate what I am saying, not on what you like jamming into my mouth.

YES, Democrats WON. Suck on THAT Bush...

At 11/14/06 01:54 AM, Demosthenez wrote: 1) I stated repeatedly it was my opinion. From now on I will label every sentence with "In my opinion" since you are so special you seem to need a preface for every sentence of mine. Sorry about the confusion.

You attempted to counterargument by saying my opinion is an opinion. You then said that waterboarding and sleep deprivation aren't forms of torture, as a fact. By your logic, therefore, I can simply respond by saying "well that's just your opinion", and then stating mine (without providing any evidence, of course).

2) Answers.com is directly lifted from wikipedia. Thanks for the same source twice.

My mistake.

3) I see no medical evidence, none. I see an opnion of a single doctor that is not even a direct quote that even prefaces it is his opinoin: "Dr. Keller argued that. . ." Learn to read and think critically of the shit the media shovels you, oh, and learn to read critically also while you are at it.

Feel free to remind me of why a) an encyclopedia is a form of media; and b) why encyclopedia writers would "shovel me shit". Why shouldn't information from an encyclopedia by authentic?

4) Until you demonstrate to me that waterboarding and sleep deprivation destroys people mentally to the point of insanity, it is not torture.

Why not? I'm sure they do, but torture isn't characterized as things which can destroy you mentally to the point of insanity.

Just for future reference.

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2000_02_09_Sleep. html
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/sleepdepri vation/a/brainsleep.htm

At 11/14/06 12:14 PM, Peter-II wrote: Why not? I'm sure they do, but torture isn't characterized as things which can destroy you mentally to the point of insanity.

Torture has yet to be defined here, another one of the points I deleted. I have defined psychlogical torture, since I have yet to see any definition by anyone, as permenant, irreversible damage to the brain and mental functions of humans. That is my definition. I have yet to see evidence that water boarding and sleep deprivation permenately damages people psychologicaly. I have so far seen no causal link between water boarding/sleep deprivation and permenant mental damage. Until I see evidence otherwise, I am keeping my stance that those are not forms of torture.

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2000_02_09_Sleep. html
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/sleepdepri vation/a/brainsleep.htm

Neither shows any correlation to lasting mental defects or brain damage.

Then we shall agree to disagree.