- America the Free -

[JMHX]

Hello again.
--

Forum threads like this tend to turn into all out flame wars with Nemesisz bringing in the Weapons of Mass Destruction, so I'm trying to play this one carefully.

Freedom comes at a price, and recently we've had many people disagreeing on the balances between security and freedom in America. Airport scanners, the possibility of national identification cards, all of that fun stuff. However, there are scattered packs of rogue intellectuals who argue that the United States of America, already Orwellian enough, is turning into 1984.

While I have yet to truly formalize an opinion on the subject, I'd like to know what all of you think. Do you think that John Ashcroft (whom I have many entertaining political cartoons of, some depicting him as a less powerful Adolf Hitler) is going a little far by suggesting the idea that everyone have a National Identification Card and be checked when they enter government buildings and cross state lines? Will it really solve anything, since you already need what seems like 187 forms of identification to renew a driver's license?

The freedoms we all hold dear, at least some of the ones not everyone knows about, are slowly being phased out to increase the protection of our people and the prevention of further catastrophies like 9-11. But I don't believe it's an all-in-all good thing. John Ashcroft, in my entirely too opinionated personal view, is a bent man who drapes statues with government money and has to really get the separation of church and state.

While, give me your opinions on the great debate of Security v. Freedom! And try and play nice...a forlorn hope in the Politics board, I suppose.

*breaks out his truncheon for crowd control*

[Dagodevas]

Well, I don't know about Ashcroft being a "less powerful Hitler", but the cards sound ridiculous. It won’t change anything. For example…

After the Littleton, CO incident back in 1999, the high school I went to decided to implement ID cards for the students. They were these large, ugly badges that we HAD to wear around our necks (picture and name side facing forward) and if we lost them we faced ISS and replacing the badge (they made us pay somewhere around $5 for the cheap thing).

It didn't solve shit. Kids were still getting into fights, selling drugs, and in the case that some kid lost his/her noodle and decided to go postal in the cafeteria, it wasn't going to do shit to save us. People are just comfortable with the idea of sacrificing their freedom (or peace-of-mind at least) in order to have the illusion of security. It's pointless and a waste of time.

Kazuo Kiriyama

[Dig-the-Man]

At 3/28/03 10:04 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote:

However, there are scattered packs of rogue intellectuals who argue that the United States of America, already Orwellian enough, is turning into 1984.
Do you think that John Ashcroft (whom I have many entertaining political cartoons of, some depicting him as a less powerful Adolf Hitler) is going a little far by suggesting the idea that everyone have a National Identification Card and be checked when they enter government buildings and cross state lines? Will it really solve anything, since you already need what seems like 187 forms of identification to renew a driver's license?

The freedoms we all hold dear, at least some of the ones not everyone knows about, are slowly being phased out to increase the protection of our people and the prevention of further catastrophies like 9-11. But I don't believe it's an all-in-all good thing.

Although I am fairly conservative (some would argue ultra-rightist... but that's a whole other argument) I would agree. When is enough... well…enough. After a National Identification Card what's next, barcodes in people's arms or something reminiscent of Minority Report? While the idea is good, tracking people to where they go to ensure they are not doing anything bad, how far can government go before infringing on freedom of movement? While Freedom of Movement may not be covered by any Civil Rights Bill or even the constitution, it is a natural law that humans should be free to move where they like… when they like.

Is it really the right of government to track people like animals… and what about tourist… shall they too be issued a National Tourist Identification Card; how long before people learn how to forge those? Nothing is fool proof and all the I.D. Card will do is limited freedoms already enjoyed.

[TheShrike]

I think I'll thank House_Of_Leaves for this...

"He who gives up freedom for security is neither free nor secure." ~ Benjamin Franklin

[Dig-the-Man]

At 3/28/03 11:43 AM, TheShrike wrote: I think I'll thank House_Of_Leaves for this...

"He who gives up freedom for security is neither free nor secure." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Fantastic quote.... mind if I steal that away?

[TheShrike]

At 3/28/03 11:45 AM, Dig_the_Man wrote: Fantastic quote.... mind if I steal that away?

Ask House_of_Leaves... or Ben.

[bumcheekcity]

i dont think they'll do anything. people will learn how to counterfit them and that will be that. theyve tried that in britain but nobody took it seriously. im suprised the Bush Administration gave it a second thought.

the only way to combat terroism is to make peace with everybody. extend friendly relations to poor african countries who will someday get nukes and blow us to smithereens. we bomb people, make them hate us and then cry when they bomb us. its just stupid.

[BinLadenmustdie]

Make peace with everybody? Good luck.

(What dream did you just wake up from?)

[karasz]

At 3/28/03 01:16 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: the only way to combat terroism is to make peace with everybody. extend friendly relations to poor african countries who will someday get nukes and blow us to smithereens. we bomb people, make them hate us and then cry when they bomb us. its just stupid.

combating terrorism with peace although could be the way to go, has too many bad things...

1) US looks weak... and the US will let 50k kids die in a jungle before they look weak...

2) could u imagine the new Arab Summit, with its Leader Osama bin laden, or the next OPEC meeting and Saddam is there? wont happen, ever

i dont know how politically knowlegdable (cant spell) everyone is (its 1 thing to be up on current events its another to be politically savvy) anyway nobody would vote for someone on the platform of PEACE with the ARABS... cuz the opponent would say YES lets meet their suicide bombers with tulips....

it jsut wont ever happen

[Dig-the-Man]

Creating a global community of Democracies is another way to go, as democracies have never gone to war with each other in the history of the world... AND... as the world becomes more connect via economy, the ability to go to war would be severly hampered because of the economic drawbacks. As our economies grow and expand, the chance for war lessens significantly.

[Slizor]

democracies have never gone to war with each other in the history of the world

That's not true. No liberal democracies have ever gone to war with each other. Liberal of course means the Capitalist ones you see now. I doubt Guetamala would be considered a liberal democracy(America attacked it, it wasn't a war per se, but it got rid of the leader.)

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 3/28/03 11:45 AM, Dig_the_Man wrote:

At 3/28/03 11:43 AM, TheShrike wrote: I think I'll thank House_Of_Leaves for this...

"He who gives up freedom for security is neither free nor secure." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Fantastic quote.... mind if I steal that away?

Go for it. :) It's not my quote to give away, so use it how you like. It's one I use everywhere, since that's exactly why I argue so much for the right to speak out, choose, be pissed off at our government.

Speaking of...another great quote:

"Any people whatsoever have the right to abolish the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right -- a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world."

- Abraham Lincoln, 1848

My opinion, I think, is probably already pretty clear. Safety is a good thing. I like the idea that when my mother flies to Ohio in a few days, she'll be safe, for the most part. I like feeling safe.

But there's all sorts of things happening. Unconstitutional 'Free Speech Zones' aka 'First Amendment Zones' are what first got to me. Then more, and more and more...yeah.

I wrote something on the CC forums not too long ago that expresses why and how I support my thoughts about war and America and our current administration. I may post it here.

Oh, and. If a driver's liscense, SSC, and passport aren't enough for the government to keep track of me, then they can kiss my ass. I refuse to submit to any more 'tracking'. No.

[TheShrike]

Heightened security at airports...
Good
Homeland Security...
Good (I have my reasons)
Another ID for Big Bro to track me...
Bad
Attacking terrorists with explosives...
Good
Attacking US citizens for not supporting Bush(or his war)...
Bad
Kicking the french, whether they're right or wrong...
Fun
Supporting US soldiers...
Good
Checking ID at state lines...
Bad
Making Canadian jokes...
Inevitable
Bending over and letting Big Bro take whatever rights he wants...
Bad

The list goes on and on...
I think we've done just about as much as we can. All we can do now is wait and see if it works. I have no intention to sign over any more of my freedom than absolutely necessary.

[TheEvilOne]

At 3/28/03 04:14 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: "Any people whatsoever have the right to abolish the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right -- a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world."

- Abraham Lincoln, 1848

Lincoln said that? Because he didn't exactly allow the South that right. Not to defend the institution of slavery, but that's essentially what the South did in 1861.

With 13 years in between, perhaps Lincoln changed his mind and decided that preservation of the Union was more important?

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 3/28/03 04:51 PM, TheEvilOne wrote:

At 3/28/03 04:14 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: "Any people whatsoever have the right to abolish the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right -- a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world."

- Abraham Lincoln, 1848

Lincoln said that? Because he didn't exactly allow the South that right. Not to defend the institution of slavery, but that's essentially what the South did in 1861.

With 13 years in between, perhaps Lincoln changed his mind and decided that preservation of the Union was more important?

I don't pretend to know what a man was thinking in 1848. Let alone Lincoln.

Pick it apart if you have, to. It's a thought provoking quote that I enjoy. If you don't, then simply don't use it.

As for abolishing the exsisting government, there's many ways the people have been shut out of the government. We have no say. Voting doesn't do much anymore.

[karasz]

At 3/28/03 04:45 PM, TheShrike wrote: Heightened security at airports...
Good

i can live with it...

Homeland Security...
Good (I have my reasons)

no, i dislike it, mainly because the FBI and CIA are NOT involved in homeland security...

Another ID for Big Bro to track me...
Bad

true

Attacking terrorists with explosives...
Good

yeah as long as we know the TERRORISTS from the patriots of their country...

Attacking US citizens for not supporting Bush(or his war)...
Bad

i agree with you

Kicking the french, whether they're right or wrong...
Fun

TRUE

Supporting US soldiers...
Good

TRUE

Checking ID at state lines...
Bad

TRUE

Making Canadian jokes...
Inevitable

well they are damn dirty Canadians

Bending over and letting Big Bro take whatever rights he wants...
Bad

True...

The list goes on and on...
I think we've done just about as much as we can. All we can do now is wait and see if it works. I have no intention to sign over any more of my freedom than absolutely necessary.

I have no intention to sign over ANY of my freedoms, if the terrorists get to beat the US by using OUR freedoms, then they beat us... (wow im goin to get raped for that one)

but i refuse to give up any freedom in the name of John Ashcroft to fight the war on terror...

[Commander-K25]

At 3/28/03 04:57 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:
As for abolishing the exsisting government, there's many ways the people have been shut out of the government. We have no say. Voting doesn't do much anymore.

Sadly, most people don't vote. Maybe that's the problem.

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 3/28/03 08:46 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 3/28/03 04:57 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:
As for abolishing the exsisting government, there's many ways the people have been shut out of the government. We have no say. Voting doesn't do much anymore.

Sadly, most people don't vote. Maybe that's the problem.

That's a very big problem, actually. An argument I have with my boyfriend rather often. He isn't even registered.

I agree that it's an issue with people not voting. But it's also an issue with governments overturning what the people voted for, and vetos and all that. It's irritating.

[karasz]

At 3/28/03 08:46 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 3/28/03 04:57 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:
As for abolishing the exsisting government, there's many ways the people have been shut out of the government. We have no say. Voting doesn't do much anymore.

Sadly, most people don't vote. Maybe that's the problem.

I'm actually in a group on campus that is trying to get the 18-25 year old people to vote... its a grass roots deal in rhode island... SO im sure we will be hitting the news before u know it...

[mysecondstar]

a friend of mine who was in the Young Republicans gave me a Bush/Cheaney bumper sticker which i pasted, with pride, on my book bag. but i guess the University of Illinois at Chicago is a pretty liberal campus because my memory and cognition professor wanted to punch me for supporting a stupid Texan, and someone tore off the sticker from my bag right in front of me (while Florida was still counting chads) and told me i was a moron. i just smiled at him and said i vote Bush. he then said this and that about how he's such a moron ie. didn't know where things were on a world map etc. when i asked him if he voted Gore. he stopped, went quiet for about 10 seconds and said, "i forgot to vote". tsk tsk tsk...

if only us young people would actually take initiative...

[karasz]

well this group IS taking the initiative, THEN in 2004 we will see how the 'get out the vote thing goes' THEN who knows...

[mysecondstar]

At 3/28/03 09:41 PM, karasz wrote: well this group IS taking the initiative, THEN in 2004 we will see how the 'get out the vote thing goes' THEN who knows...

i think that the 2004 presidential elections will be kind of a pushover. it'll be Bush v. Kerry and Bush'll kick his ass a la Reagan v. Mondale. i think it was Mondale... but in any case, the election i want to see is 2008: Hillary v. the WORLD!

[karasz]

At 3/28/03 09:46 PM, mysecondstar wrote:

At 3/28/03 09:41 PM, karasz wrote: well this group IS taking the initiative, THEN in 2004 we will see how the 'get out the vote thing goes' THEN who knows...

i think that the 2004 presidential elections will be kind of a pushover. it'll be Bush v. Kerry and Bush'll kick his ass a la Reagan v. Mondale. i think it was Mondale... but in any case, the election i want to see is 2008: Hillary v. the WORLD!

im sorry thats incorrect, it will Bush v. Dean and if the economy stays the way it is Dean may pull the upset like another Fmr gov. of a small state against a BUSH after the war with Iraq... wow, someone please tell me i havent fallen in a space-time continuim rift and its really 1991...

[TheShrike]

I know I will be voting in the 2004 election, and I will not vote Bush, at any rate.

I'm thinking of writing in Cthulhu.
Why go for the lesser of two evils?

[mysecondstar]

At 3/28/03 09:55 PM, karasz wrote: im sorry thats incorrect, it will Bush v. Dean

we'll just see about that heh heh.

[karasz]

At 3/28/03 10:06 PM, TheShrike wrote: I know I will be voting in the 2004 election, and I will not vote Bush, at any rate.

I'm thinking of writing in Cthulhu.
Why go for the lesser of two evils?

Because then it becomes a wasted vote... sadly YES i know it would be great if the best candidate would win, but voting for someone other then the Dem OR Rep will sadly help the candidate that you do not want to win...

what state do you live in...

[TheEvilOne]

At 3/28/03 04:57 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: I don't pretend to know what a man was thinking in 1848. Let alone Lincoln.

Pick it apart if you have, to. It's a thought provoking quote that I enjoy. If you don't, then simply don't use it.

I didn't say I didn't like the quote. I was just noting the irony of it.

[TheShrike]

At 3/28/03 10:22 PM, karasz wrote: Because then it becomes a wasted vote... sadly YES i know it would be great if the best candidate would win, but voting for someone other then the Dem OR Rep will sadly help the candidate that you do not want to win...

What I said was a joke. I'm not going to try and explain it.
Go here if you really want to know what I'm talking about.
I thought that the refrence might be picked up by someone here.
Oh well.

I am going to vote Democrat. Unless Bush does something really, really nice. He has a lot of catching up to do before I'll back him.

[JMHX]

If worst comes to worst you can always vote for the king of rants, JudgeMeHarshX!

Ooh yes. Excellent *in Mr. Burns voice*