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I'd be all for this, Im already pretty much a Canadian citizen, But If I went through with it I'd lose my American citizenship. So I'll just stay here for now. But Canada is cool. My mom and her parents are from there and I used to go there a lot. Very nice and liberal : ) We need more blue states. Then ofcourse we'd have the red states surrounded ^_^

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If both Canada and North America had closed economies, they could keep their cultural heritage and eliminate this economic effect.

I am against large unifications such as this, if they be Capitalist, as the economic recessions will hit bigger and harder, effecting more people.

My only other problem is cultural, I'm a nationalist, I would dislike the unification. Furthermore, who will assimilate into what culture? Either way, there would be wuite a bit of unrest.

It's good enough as it is.

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At 11/4/06 05:05 AM, ironzealot wrote: I love the canadian liberty party's motto: "Life, Liberty, Propety" You can't be truely free without real property rights, something socialists don't/can't understand

Sorry to rain on your parade, but you do know that the "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" phrase in the Declaration/Constitution was actually modified from the exact phrase you just uttered? At the time, the property version was the common saying, and the happiness one was just a tweak made by the authors.

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Canada and USA coming together as one country is a bad idea to me.

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At 11/5/06 08:43 AM, YoungFrankenstein wrote: Hell No!!!! Nothing against Canada, it's just that I wouldn't have any place to run to if Hillary Clinton get's voted into presidency!!!! There are too many freedoms that she want to take away and I can't live without my rated R movies, my heavy metal and my violent video games! And I sure as hell wouldn't want to run to Mexico, I don't speak Spanish! I'ld have to run to Europe or something and Canada's closer!

I don't have anything against Canada, but it isn't a good idea for us to unite with them.
1. Clinton might do that and if united, this will make you have to go to Europe.
2. What is the policy for health care, US or Canada?

But, there is a problem, what if she became president, and banned those freedoms, Canada might do that as well. But, she can't do that because it is a violation of the First Amendment.

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At 11/5/06 08:49 AM, Kev-o wrote: How can something be United if divided by borders?

The US is a United country divided by borders of individual states. Technically, each individual state in the US is a sovereign nation, they have their own governments, and the Federal government has limited influence in the states. This is compared to other countries that are still considered democracies, yet their individual provinces or territories have little or no decision making.

At 11/5/06 12:00 PM, ZeroAsALimit wrote:

My only other problem is cultural, I'm a nationalist, I would dislike the unification. Furthermore, who will assimilate into what culture? Either way, there would be wuite a bit of unrest.

Canada has already assimilated American culture, most people realize that already. A Canadian and his/her behavior is practically indistinguishable from an American. Canadians wear American clothes, eat American food, watch American TV and movies, listen to American music, drive American cars (for the most part) and do very American things. Only people who are deluding themselves will pretend that America isn't Canada's cultural cornerstone.

Canada and the US are practically the same country anyway, the only difference is that Canada has a parliament with ceremonial allegiance to the Queen of England, The US has a 3 tier government with equal representation and more effective checks and balances of power. Other than a few political differences, Canada IS America, some Canadians and Americans just like to pretend otherwise sometimes due to their own biased perceptions, not reality.

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I think Canada woul invariably get fucked up the ass in this union. I just dont see anyway this would work wiht the bullshit the federal government does now. For instance, what if Canada wants to legalize pot and whatever the new capitol would be (or maybe they would take a page out of ancient Egypts book and make two capitols) decides hey fuck that. They back door force Canada to adopt the laws like they did with the increased drinking age law; take away funding or else.

Or what if they want to keep their nationalzed health care and the central government, again, decides no, fuck that. They cut funding for something unrelated and force them to change.

If we were a true federalist system, I think it would be a grand idea. Problem is, we aint. America is now a statist, bloated, pig with way to much power. The only reason we still have states is the federal government hasnt figured out how to destroy them yet.

If this would happen America first and foremost would need to reform. Or America and Canada would need to reform together. We would need to do away with our giant central government and return to a federalist system so Canada and their provinces could retain some form of self rule. As it is now, I highly dount Canada would retain an ounce of Canadian'ness if they merged with Washington.

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At 11/4/06 04:44 AM, Altarus wrote:

At 11/4/06 04:32 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: uniting Canada and America in one political system would allow Canadians to have a voice to sway policies that the US undertakes.

which is why I'm against it. I don't want liberal Canada swaying American policies and law to the left. American is already too liberal; we don't need to become even more liberal.

Yes I totally agree with you. Most of Canada are liberals, even if the conservatives or in charge right now. We are going to turn in to one big socialist/communist shithole if we do this.

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At 11/5/06 09:09 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: I think Canada woul invariably get fucked up the ass in this union. I just dont see anyway this would work wiht the bullshit the federal government does now. For instance, what if Canada wants to legalize pot

Individual provinces/states could make their own drug law decisions. In case you didn't know, this is already true in the US. State governments have some sovereignity in drug laws. If an initiative was voted for by a state to legalize pot, then it WOULD. But it usually gets turned down by the voters, not by some outside influence from the federal government.

Or what if they want to keep their nationalzed health care and the central government, again, decides no, fuck that. They cut funding for something unrelated and force them to change.

Individuals who want to keep their healthcare COULD but they would have to keep paying their taxes into that universal healthcare system. People who choose to make their own decision as to what type of health insurance they want, and whether or not they even want insurance, won't have to pay taxes into that system.

I'm sure that alot of Canadians would choose the American system over the Canadian system. Canada has a mediocre "one-size-fits-all" healthcare system and they pay out the ass for it in taxes. In the US, health insurance is provided by alot of employers and well-to-do Americans sometimes choose to not even pay for healthinsurance and just choose to pay for medical bills directly, which saves them money in the long run.

I keep a whole lot more money of my paycheck than Canadians do, and my employer pays for my health insurance which is top of the line and has a $200,000 policy. I prefer the US system, and I'm sure if alot of Canadians were given the ability to make their own decisions rather than have their government babysit them, they would.

If we were a true federalist system, I think it would be a grand idea. Problem is, we aint. America is now a statist, bloated, pig with way to much power. The only reason we still have states is the federal government hasnt figured out how to destroy them yet.

Um compare the US form of government to Canada's. In the US there is WAY LESS government intervention, and WAY more State sovereignity. We also have 3 independent branches of government, Canada has a singular, monolithic parliament run with STRICT party-discipline. The ruling party makes all the decisions, PERIOD. The people don't even elect their PM, they vote for parliament officials who APPOINT their PM.

The US has WAY less federal government power than Canada. You are suggesting that the US government has become too powerful, yet if/when there are Democrats in office, they would raise taxes in order to DECIDE FOR US where the money goes and would much more heavily moderate the economy and disregard. The current US form of Government is fine with me, much better than the all powerful socialist governments that have the country wrapped around their fingers.

If this would happen America first and foremost would need to reform.

I don't think so.

Or America and Canada would need to reform together. We would need to do away with our giant central government and return to a federalist system so Canada and their provinces could retain some form of self rule.

Our giant central government? Canada's central government is WAY LARGER in proportion to their country than ours is. Canada's provinces don't have self-rule in the first place. the National parliament makes all the decisions. Go talk to a Nova Scotian and see how they feel about their provincial rights, they'll tell you they have none.

As it is now, I highly dount Canada would retain an ounce of Canadian'ness if they merged with Washington.

Maybe politically. But besides different government policies. Where is this "Canadian'ness" that you speak of?

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At 11/5/06 10:14 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: In case you didn't know, this is already true in the US. But it usually gets turned down by the voters, not by some outside influence from the federal government.

Haha yeah sure, cellar. Believe what you want.

If what you say is true why are the medical marijuana stores all across California being slowly shut down? Funny misunderstanding?

I'm sure that alot of Canadians would choose the American system over the Canadian system.

Thats not what I am addressing, what I am addressing is the choice for states/provinces to make their own healthcare systems if they want to. The federal government could kill it before it ever had a chance to start. Why would Canada want to enter into something where they lose the right to self rule to Washington D.C.?

and well-to-do Americans sometimes choose to not even pay for healthinsurance and just choose to pay for medical bills directly, which saves them money in the long run.

I dont believe that for a second. Lets see a link. Rich people dont care about a few thousand a year. Especially when it could save them hundreds of thousands.

I prefer the US system, and I'm sure if alot of Canadians were given the ability to make their own decisions rather than have their government babysit them, they would.

Thats is not the point. I am against national healthcare myself. My point is protecting peoples right to choose, something Canada would lose if they joined this union. Stop going on tangents.

Um compare the US form of government to Canada's. In the US there is WAY LESS government intervention, and WAY more State sovereignity.

Again, not the point. Canada loses the right to self rule when they join this union. Why should they be forced to observe laws pushed down from Washington if they dont want them? There is no point in having someone else tell them what to do if they already have that. It changes nothing if they join America, they would still trade with us and be culturally the same as us but they lose the right to make their own laws. Why sign up for something when they gain nothing and simply lose? Great, we might be a bit more unified. Who cares? Its not like we are tremendously different. The costs are not worth the minimal benefit.

The current US form of Government is fine with me, much better than the all powerful socialist governments that have the country wrapped around their fingers.

HAHA irony.

We are barely federalist anymore. We are bloated and centralized. It is pathetic and disgusting.

Our giant central government? Canada's central government is WAY LARGER in proportion to their country than ours is.

Again, you miss the point. Whats the difference to a Canadian if they switch from one bloated government to another ruling them and telling them what laws are OK? There is no point, it is stupid.

Where is this "Canadian'ness" that you speak of?

Politically in self rule. Its worthless to join this union because they would lose the right to make their own laws. What if they dont want to pay lots of money to the military and instead spend it on healthcare? To bad? Thats why this wont happen, they lose the right to control their own money in a big way to another group who has different objectives than them,

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At 11/5/06 10:49 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 11/5/06 10:14 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

I'm sure that alot of Canadians would choose the American system over the Canadian system.

Thats not what I am addressing, what I am addressing is the choice for states/provinces to make their own healthcare systems if they want to.

Um the American system IS a system in which individual states can make their own healthcare systems, as long as voters vote for it.

You don't understand the difference between Canada and the US. In CANADA the people don't choose their healthcare, the GOVERNMENT DOES. In the US individual states could create universal Healthcare. In fact, Massachusetts is well on its way of creating a state-wide healthcare plan.

The federal government could kill it before it ever had a chance to start. Why would Canada want to enter into something where they lose the right to self rule to Washington D.C.?

I think if Canada joined the US, their individual provinces would have more freedoms than they currently do now under the Canadian parliament. They WOULD self rule, the Parliament wouldn't be as powerful anymore, but Canadians themselves would have greater sovereignity.

and well-to-do Americans sometimes choose to not even pay for healthinsurance and just choose to pay for medical bills directly, which saves them money in the long run.

I dont believe that for a second. Lets see a link. Rich people dont care about a few thousand a year. Especially when it could save them hundreds of thousands.

You don't know what you're talking about. The vast majority of people never even come close to fulfilling their insurance policies of $100,000+ coverage which is average. If they didn't pay insurance, they would save more money in a lifetime by just paying the medical bills themselves. This would cut out the middle-men at the insurance company (or in the Canada's case, the government) and you would be paying the hospital or doctor directly without a hefty commission being paid to some unseen bureacrat or businessman.

I prefer the US system, and I'm sure if alot of Canadians were given the ability to make their own decisions rather than have their government babysit them, they would.

Thats is not the point. I am against national healthcare myself. My point is protecting peoples right to choose, something Canada would lose if they joined this union. Stop going on tangents.

Canadian's wouldn't lose their right to choose because Canadian provinces or Canada as a whole could still choose to keep universal healthcare, then the individuals who want their own customizable healthcare, or none at all could be exempt from the ENORMOUS taxes that individual Canadians pay which gets pooled into the Healthcare system.

This wouldn't take away Canadians' right to choose, it would give them another option.

Um compare the US form of government to Canada's. In the US there is WAY LESS government intervention, and WAY more State sovereignity.

Again, not the point. Canada loses the right to self rule when they join this union.

No, the Canadian parliament would lose its ability to moderate their entire country so meticulously. Individual Canadians would be given more self rule.

Why should they be forced to observe laws pushed down from Washington if they dont want them?

There is no point in having someone else tell them what to do if they already have that. It changes nothing if they join America, they would still trade with us and be culturally the same as us but they lose the right to make their own laws.

No they wouldn't. Canadians don't vote for initiatives in their provinces like we do in our states. THEIR PARLIAMENT makes the decisions according to their INCREDIBLY STRICT party-politics. If Canada adopted our form of government, they would have WAY more control over their own country than they do now, they would be able to decide which laws their provinces will follow by the VOTERS of the province, not by the current parliamentarians in Ottawa.

Why sign up for something when they gain nothing and simply lose?

You don't see the reality here. They would have ALOT to gain, individual Canadians would be able to make alot more choices in their lives and their central government would have less control. They would have EVERYTHING to gain and nothing to lose.

The current US form of Government is fine with me, much better than the all powerful socialist governments that have the country wrapped around their fingers.

HAHA irony.

You have absolutely no clue about what you're suggesting. As an America college-student I only pay 10% of my income on taxes. I can invest my money in any stocks I want, I can start a business and completely obliterate other companies if I have competetitive business practices. In ANY OTHER country in the world, I would be paying MUCH more taxes, and half or more of MY MONEY would be distriputed by the government and my own property and fiscal rights would be lessened. If I started a company in Canada and it became a monopoly, the Canadian government could take money away from ME, or make me change MY business practices in order to give other people a 'fair chance".

The US is the most capitalist country in the world. We have WAY more individual responsibility than in any other nation.

You just don't have a point of reference so you have the luxury of acting like an imbecile with your big-brother paranoia.

Again, you miss the point. Whats the difference to a Canadian if they switch from one bloated government to another ruling them and telling them what laws are OK? There is no point, it is stupid.

Goddamn you're so fucking stupid. You're just coming irrationaly to the conclusion that they would be ruled by us, when actually they would be set free so to speak from their current government that controls their country alot more so than our government controls ours. If Canadians were given the right to exploit American-style citizenship they would have MUCH more individual rights as citizens and as provinces.

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At 11/5/06 11:32 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Um the American system IS a system in which individual states can make their own healthcare systems, as long as voters vote for it.

I dont really care about that point, I was just throwing it out there. D.C. could crush states plans if they wanted to, that is all I am saying.

I think if Canada joined the US, their individual provinces would have more freedoms than they currently do now under the Canadian parliament.

They WOULD self rule, the Parliament wouldn't be as powerful anymore, but Canadians themselves would have greater sovereignity.

Greater sovreignity by letting a bigger country and their objectives and goals tell them what to do? Yeah right.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Im still waiting for a link, Mr. Expert on the way rich people decide not to spend money on health insurance.

No, the Canadian parliament would lose its ability to moderate their entire country so meticulously. Individual Canadians would be given more self rule.

Your right, the Canadian parliament would lose their ability to moderate to Washington D.C. Wow, what a good trade off for not gaining anything.

THEIR PARLIAMENT makes the decisions according to their INCREDIBLY STRICT party-politics.

Hey, that reminds me of some stuff we do in the states. Drinking age raised by the federal government and pot criminilization, along with many other drugs. Irony?

If Canada adopted our form of government, they would have WAY more control over their own country than they do now

I think that is funny considering the fact they wouldnt exist.

they would be able to decide which laws their provinces will follow by the VOTERS of the province, not by the current parliamentarians in Ottawa.

But when the federal government doesnt like what the voters do vote for, they can always rely on Congress or the Supreme Court to strip away states/provices rights. Funny funny?

You have absolutely no clue about what you're suggesting.

Really now? What does your little rant have shit to do with the fact our government has grown tremendously and increased social spending across the board? Anything? Nope?

In ANY OTHER country in the world, I would be paying MUCH more taxes

Nope.

If I started a company in Canada and it became a monopoly, the Canadian government could take money away from ME, or make me change MY business practices in order to give other people a 'fair chance".

LOL. "Its MY FUCKING MONOPOLY PIGS. I AM STANDARD OIL AND I CAN SET PRICES AND DO WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT JUST BECAUSE."

Damn those fucking moose humping pigs. Wait, you tell me Standard Oil was an American company destroyed by antitrust legislation? What? Now I am all confused.

The US is the most capitalist country in the world. We have WAY more individual responsibility than in any other nation.

Fail again.

You just don't have a point of reference so you have the luxury of acting like an imbecile with your big-brother paranoia.

You call yourself a conservative and say shit like that? Get off the boards you piece of shit neo-con.

Goddamn you're so fucking stupid.

Aww, now you are just hurting my feelings. That was just uncalled for.

If Canadians were given the right to exploit American-style citizenship they would have MUCH more individual rights as citizens and as provinces.

You still have failed to make the case for that with any real world examples.

This is how it is. Canada is very small in comparison to America. If they joined America they would barely be able to affect our politics but we would affect them tremendously. It would have the affect on us of adding another Calirornia to America. Yeah California is big for a state but for a country? They may liberalize us a bit but we would Americanize their politics tremendously by directing where there money goes. Why would they want to submit to a larger nation that would not protect their rights as a nation to govern where they spend their tax money? What good does it do for them? Less tariffs? More markets for goods? At the price of giving away your independece of choosing where your tax money goes and directing your own laws? And that is the problem here, you fail or refuse to acknowledge how unequal this relationship would be. America would dictate, Canada would follow. And the protections afforded to our states have degraded sufficently that even if states/provinces made their own laws there is no promise the federal government would allow them to stay. Why submit to a larger entity that would rule over them with no promise of independence when their situation is fine as it is?

If that was to hard here is the simple version if complex is to hard for you. Canada small. America big. America and Canada marry. Canada become the bitch. Canada no want to be bitch. Canada regret decision to marry. Canada sad.

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At 11/5/06 11:38 AM, zzzzd wrote: Candians will hate it. So will the US lol it will never happen.

But it does look like the future will be a futre of super powers.

North american union
South america union
European union
African Union
China
India
Russia

Sans Russia. They have little political clout after the cold war, now.

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Maybe we could start this union slowly. For starters, a coalition.

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I won't mind Canida. But mexico not no but....HELLL NO.

I don't want them even allowed in here

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cellardoor6, you have some misconceptions about Canada. Our culture, while a lot of it may seem American based, is not as much as you think it is. First off, a lot of our products come from the same places yours does, like India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia, Taiwan, Japan etc. If you go around the world, you'll see similarities as well. Other than outward appearances, we do have some cultural differences. One is our opinions on guns, for example. Canadians don't consider owning a gun a fundamental right, it's a privilege like owning a car. Canadians overwhelmingly support publically funded healthcare, even though you say that we'd rather the American system. Why else do you think that Canadians have been spooked into voting Liberal for the last 13 years? The Conservatives, the progressives and the Reform Party wanted to privatize healthcare, but it was only in recent years that they have changed their stance.

Canadians are also not as polarized as Americans. It probably has to do with the fact that we have so many different parties to vote for, rather than just two. So if someone isn't a Conservative voter, they could be a Green Party voter, an NDP voter, a Liberal voter, or if they're in Quebec it could be the Bloc Quebecois etc.

Our government's federal power isn't as encompassing as you say it is. The provinces have been gaining more and more sovereignty of over the years and Quebec alone has had a lot of influence in premoting provincial sovereignty. We've been becoming more like the EU, with member states, rather than a single nation.

A slight majority of Canadians support same-sex marriage, while a majority of Americans are against it. A larger amount of Canadians support marijuana legalization too.

Hockey is Canada's pasttime, like Baseball is to Americans. Another cultural difference.

There's lots of things that are different about our nation's cultures. Also, many Americans assume that the U.S. has all the influence on Canadian, while not realizing how many shows and movies are being filmed in Canada, or with Canadian producers. Even The Simpsons has some Canadian roots believe it or not. Homer's character was loosely based on Groening's father, who's Canadian. So while you pass a lot of culture to us up here, Canadians have slipped a lot of our culture into the U.S. as well. You just don't notice it as much because you slap the "American" label on anything that goes into the U.S. and not understand where it actually came from.

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At 11/5/06 08:49 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Canada and the US are practically the same country anyway

Incorrect, the roots of the US don't legally allow for big government, whereas Canada is fond of it.

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At 11/6/06 05:28 PM, ZeroAsALimit wrote:

At 11/5/06 08:49 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Canada and the US are practically the same country anyway

Incorrect, the roots of the US don't legally allow for big government, whereas Canada is fond of it.

I think I said that other than the politics, Canada and the US are practically the same. You take out the government policies and so forth and look at the people, they are indistinguishable for the most part.

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These two countries citizens hate eachother to much, so no.

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i've heard that before... when i used to live in canada, but i can say for a fact that, being from western canada where i'd say 85% of the population is conservative as opposed to liberal, canadians do not want a merge with the us... for one thing, it betrays both of our constitutions...canada being founded with the queen of the commonwealth as head of state, and the americans as a seperate entity from britain as demonstrated by the war of independance... so clearly, although it may be practical in some ways, many people will not consent, due to historical and loyalty reasons

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At 11/6/06 06:29 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: I think I said that other than the politics

I'm not a citizen of Canada, so I can't really argue outside politics.

STILL, politics is part of their culture, same with you. You aren't compatible for the reason that you either have to force the constitution on them, or you have to scrap it.

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It's a bad idea, there different cultures, i've met canadians an americans.
Canadians are more down to earth an with the rest of the world, unlike americans who seem to be in there own little world.

Canadians shouldn't lose there nationaility, everyone likes canadians, except americans.