UK Vs. Muslims.

[Crazybutnice]

I just wanted to know what people think about muslim women wearing viels.

my view is this;.
i thing they shouldn't wear them so we can see their faces.
but at the same time...
it is thier culture and belives, so we can't esactly forve them to change.

i personaly think people should clam down and try to get long with and eachother.

your views please?

[Neoptolemus]

My views are that the British people do not actually care if Muslim women are wearing the niqab (veil). The controversy about it is made by the politicians who want the average Brit to always think that there is an enemy within. tony Blair described the wearing of the niqab as a mark of separation. However, surely it's more of a mark of seperation for the British government and media to constantly single out the Muslim community and say how wrong they are and how much they should change.

George Galloway (usually not worth a mention) did actually say something with some relevance. He said, "Who does Jack Straw think he is to tell his female constituents that he would prefer they disrobe before they meet him, For that is what this amounts to. It is a male politician telling women to wear less."

Ultimately, if you consider how much uproar about this has appeared then you'll realise that the only reasoning that certain politicians have for saying the niqab should be banned is to further the divide between British citizens and just to demonise the Muslim community. The thing is, it appears to be very much like what lead upto the riots in in the north of England five years ago.

While the wearing of the niqab is not mandatory for Muslim women it still is part of religious expression. I personally, being a white English athiest, support the Muslim community in their right to express their religion etc.
Afterall the banning of the Niqab goes agianst the European Convention on Human Rights Article 9 (right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion), Article 10 (right to freedom of expression) and Article 14 (prohibition of discrimination)

[Jesus-made-me-do-it]

I think neoptolemus is right. Not many of the UK citizens are going to care about woman wearing viels.

You dont tell a british woman to stop wearing trousers becuase she doesnt have a right.

[emmytee]

exactly!

"I want to see your tits, take off your bra"

Seriously, what do you think creates more racial seperation and suspicion:
- Veils on muslim womens faces
or
-300 policeman breaking into an innocent mans house, shooting him and almost killing him for no reason other than he was muslim and someone ....like...mentioned he might be a .....terrorist

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 05:04 PM, emmytee wrote: exactly!

"I want to see your tits, take off your bra"

Seriously, what do you think creates more racial seperation and suspicion:
- Veils on muslim womens faces
or
-300 policeman breaking into an innocent mans house, shooting him and almost killing him for no reason other than he was muslim and someone ....like...mentioned he might be a .....terrorist

Exacty. There ends up being two kinds of people, those who fear Islam and back the governments aim of seperation or those who see what's happening and don't like where the country is heading..

Also you can't forget those two innocent students who got thrown off a plain from Spain to Manchester just because they were of Asian descent and not speaking English to each other.

[SkyCube]

I think Muslim women should be able to wear niqabs and burqas, but not in a situation where anyone else who was covering their face would be asked to show it.

[Britkid]

Hmm, the topic title is a little misrepresentative. The whole debate is just that when someone speaks to you, you'd like to be able to see their face. That's about the whole of it for me. Fine, wear it when you're out and about; it's your own choice. It's just rude not to take it off so I can't see your face when I speak to you.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 05:27 PM, Britkid wrote: Hmm, the topic title is a little misrepresentative. The whole debate is just that when someone speaks to you, you'd like to be able to see their face. That's about the whole of it for me. Fine, wear it when you're out and about; it's your own choice. It's just rude not to take it off so I can't see your face when I speak to you.

The thing is the politicians are saying that it is threatening and meakes them feel uncomfortable.. I mean for fucks sake, they're women i mean it's not like they're bodybuilders.

Anyway, i see exactly where you're coming from, obviously people like to see anothe rpersons face when they are having a proper conversation with them say at an interview etc. Howver, what thwe politicians want is them to be completely banned even when they are walking from their own house to their friends who live just 2 doors down...

[emmytee]

I don't like the fact that this debate even exists, because even though no-one says it people are putting this in the same box as terrorism. Seriously, if you went through a newspaper nowadays and replaced the word muslim with jew I think it would make people pretty uncomfortable. Whats more, it just doesn't seem like something you should even think twice about in a free country. I have the right to walk around dressed up as a clown whenever the fuck I want to, so whats the big deal.

Really, what does this change...who cares, if you're not fucking enlightened enough to respect someones culture enough to hold a conversation with them without seeing their face move to some poor ass white council estate so you can all hold meetings and blame the muslims for taking the jobs you lost because you;re alocoholic scum.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 05:46 PM, emmytee wrote: I don't like the fact that this debate even exists, because even though no-one says it people are putting this in the same box as terrorism. Seriously, if you went through a newspaper nowadays and replaced the word muslim with jew I think it would make people pretty uncomfortable. Whats more, it just doesn't seem like something you should even think twice about in a free country. I have the right to walk around dressed up as a clown whenever the fuck I want to, so whats the big deal.

Exactly. The thing is it's all to do with the politicians wanting us to constantly think that British Muslims are alien to us. If chavs are allowed to wear hoods all the time why aren't Muslim women allowed to wear the veil? What's next? Everything that diddn't originate from Britian is to be banned? I swear this country is going to hell and i love the country too much to let it happen.. hopefully in a few years you may all have the chance to vote for me as PM.

[ironzealot]

At 10/29/06 02:47 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
While the wearing of the niqab is not mandatory for Muslim women it still is part of religious expression. I personally, being a white English athiest, support the Muslim community in their right to express their religion etc.
Afterall the banning of the Niqab goes agianst the European Convention on Human Rights Article 9 (right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion), Article 10 (right to freedom of expression) and Article 14 (prohibition of discrimination)

Your right, it would be wrong to force a cultural group to ban things simply because it offends another cultural group. Good thing images of pigs are banned to avoid offending muslims

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 06:00 PM, ironzealot wrote: Your right, it would be wrong to force a cultural group to ban things simply because it offends another cultural group.

While i agree it is absurd to ban things which are offensive to some but not others, the niqab isn't offensive to the British public. It's not even offensive to the politicians. The politicians are just using it as an excuse to alienate the Muslim communities of Britain and create civil unrest which will later be blamed on Muslims.

Good thing images of pigs are banned to avoid offending muslims

This i do no tunderstand.. Could you explain please? Sorry, a bit too much drinking leads to me not understanding somethings.. oops.

[ironzealot]

At 10/29/06 06:07 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
While i agree it is absurd to ban things which are offensive to some but not others, the niqab isn't offensive to the British public. It's not even offensive to the politicians. The politicians are just using it as an excuse to alienate the Muslim communities of Britain and create civil unrest which will later be blamed on Muslims.

My point is that it should not be acceptable to ban ANYTHING just because it happens to offend someone. I'm just pointing out that there is a slew of items and symbols banned across Europe, just because they offend muslims.

At least france is consistent, all religion icons banned

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 06:15 PM, ironzealot wrote: My point is that it should not be acceptable to ban ANYTHING just because it happens to offend someone. I'm just pointing out that there is a slew of items and symbols banned across Europe, just because they offend muslims.

Well, the thing i'm not sure when it comes to banning things which cause offense. I mean, take the cartoons of Mohammed. That actually went against the teaching of the Qur'an.. It's against Islamic law... I'm against banning things which cause some offense but you have to draw a line, i'd have to be in favour of banning things which are disrespectful but not against banning things which cause offense.

At least france is consistent, all religion icons banned

That is consistent.. Seeing as i'm athiest i won't have a problem but i know many people who would, after all people should be free to express their religious beliefs.

[ironzealot]

At 10/29/06 06:20 PM, neoptolemus wrote:

Well, the thing i'm not sure when it comes to banning things which cause offense. I mean, take the cartoons of Mohammed. That actually went against the teaching of the Qur'an.. It's against Islamic law... I'm against banning things which cause some offense but you have to draw a line, i'd have to be in favour of banning things which are disrespectful but not against banning things which cause offense.

Yes those cartoons go against the teachings of the Koran. Good thing im not a muslims, so the teaching of Koran have no meaning to me. I don't think its acceptable to put any limits on free speech, because it's a slippery slope. Reach my sig, everyones freedom of speech has to be protected completely.

It's the muslim's dogma, not mine. I may not agree with being disrespectful to a group of people for no good reason, but I absolutely agree with protecting the rights of individuals to be disrespectful.

As the old aphorism goes:" I may not agree with what you say, but I'll die to protect your right to say it."

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 06:32 PM, ironzealot wrote: It's the muslim's dogma, not mine. I may not agree with being disrespectful to a group of people for no good reason, but I absolutely agree with protecting the rights of individuals to be disrespectful.

Thats the thing.. I havn't come to a conclusive position on that.. I mean, i'm all for people having freedom of expression, hence my favourite quote in my sig.."If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." but i'm at odds end when it comes to freedom of speech versus respecting another persons beliefs...

[ironzealot]

At 10/29/06 06:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
Thats the thing.. I havn't come to a conclusive position on that.. I mean, i'm all for people having freedom of expression, hence my favourite quote in my sig.."If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." but i'm at odds end when it comes to freedom of speech versus respecting another persons beliefs...

That may be true, but you can't just arbitrarily decide what's acceptable speech and what isn't. Because you may agree what's unacceptable today, but it sets a terrible precedent for restricting further speech in the future.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 06:37 PM, ironzealot wrote:

At 10/29/06 06:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
Thats the thing.. I havn't come to a conclusive position on that.. I mean, i'm all for people having freedom of expression, hence my favourite quote in my sig.."If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." but i'm at odds end when it comes to freedom of speech versus respecting another persons beliefs...

That may be true, but you can't just arbitrarily decide what's acceptable speech and what isn't. Because you may agree what's unacceptable today, but it sets a terrible precedent for restricting further speech in the future.

Screw it, i concede on that... Freedom of speech should always be there regardless of any offense which may take place yet freedom to express ones religion should also be there and thus any religious garments should be allowed to be worn..

[seventy-one]

This sounds to me like a double standard. Everyone was saying after the cartoon riots that the Middle East should STFU and accept that the West has Freedom of Expression. And when Muslim women in the UK want to express themselves the way they want to, its all of a sudden illegal.

Whatever, it'll just end up as another propoganda tool for terrorists. Its not like Britain and the Muslim community there need to build ties or anything like that...

[ironzealot]

At 10/29/06 06:41 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
Screw it, i concede on that... Freedom of speech should always be there regardless of any offense which may take place yet freedom to express ones religion should also be there and thus any religious garments should be allowed to be worn..

very well, I can agree with that

[SkyCube]

At 10/29/06 06:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote::

but i'm at odds end when it comes to freedom of speech versus respecting another persons beliefs...

I really do not understand that at all... In fact, I think the idea that one should have the right to be protected from offence quite disturbing. Getting offended is a fact of life, if a person cannot handle it then I say they need to seriously grow up.

Banning things because they "might offend someone" is one of the most annoying forms of political correctness in my opinion.

[SkyCube]

At 10/29/06 06:48 PM, seventy-one wrote: when Muslim women in the UK want to express themselves the way they want to, its all of a sudden illegal.

It's not illegal. The major incident in which a Muslim was suspended for not removing her veol was a situation where it hindered her in doing her Job. Any other teaching assistant would not be allowed "express themselves" by covering their face, why should she. If she doesn't like it, then she can get another job.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/29/06 07:01 PM, ClottedCreamFudge wrote: At 10/29/06 06:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote::

but i'm at odds end when it comes to freedom of speech versus respecting another persons beliefs...

I really do not understand that at all... In fact, I think the idea that one should have the right to be protected from offence quite disturbing. Getting offended is a fact of life, if a person cannot handle it then I say they need to seriously grow up.

Banning things because they "might offend someone" is one of the most annoying forms of political correctness in my opinion.

What i was on about is to do with the cartoons of Mohammed and how in Islamic law is it wrong to create any images of the prophet... That is what i was at conflict with seeing as people should be respected yet people should also have freedom of expression which can be in direct conflict.

[SkyCube]

At 10/29/06 07:08 PM, neoptolemus wrote: What i was on about is to do with the cartoons of Mohammed and how in Islamic law is it wrong to create any images of the prophet... That is what i was at conflict with seeing as people should be respected yet people should also have freedom of expression which can be in direct conflict.

Yes, and freedom of expression should win every time. I should be able to draw, and publish whatever I like. If Muslims don't like it, then they shouldn't look at it.

[seventy-one]

At 10/29/06 07:06 PM, ClottedCreamFudge wrote:

At 10/29/06 06:48 PM, seventy-one wrote: when Muslim women in the UK want to express themselves the way they want to, its all of a sudden illegal.

It's not illegal. The major incident in which a Muslim was suspended for not removing her veol was a situation where it hindered her in doing her Job. Any other teaching assistant would not be allowed "express themselves" by covering their face, why should she. If she doesn't like it, then she can get another job.

FTR, the only knowledge of this situation that I am aware of came from this thread, but I will argue this situation which you mentioned.
Since when is wearing a veil hindering her job? She's just a bloody TA. All they do is sit there and grade papers. The veil has nothing to do with how she performs at her job.

[SmilezRoyale]

I think that hijabs should not only be allowed, they should be mandated.

Muslims all over the world need to learn how it's better to bow down to the constant fear of violence, then to act intelectually and only respond to violence, rather then the idea of it.

[Forums]

Honestly, I beginning to see this world transforming into the premise of a certain book by George Orwell... First the government will tell us what to wear, then they will tell us what to think.. then what to believe, what to do, what to say, what not to think.. Wait. They already do this.

[JakeHero]

Meh, if the Muhammedan women wish to wear veils and stay in the Middle Ages so let them.

[Brick-top]

I do not mind if muslim woman wear these niqab/veil. Its tthere beliefs and Im not going to stop them.

[Nylo]

At 10/29/06 09:03 PM, BanditByte wrote: Meh, if the Muhammedan women wish to wear veils and stay in the Middle Ages so let them.

How about when they want them worn when taking I.D photos? It happens.
How about when a man wants to beat his wife because tradition allows it. It happens.

Honestly, in this day and age some shit honestly needs to be sacrificed for the sake of citizenship. You guys think it's wrong for the government to tell them what they can and can't wear?

NEWS FLASH: they don't have to BE UK citizens. When did Europe owe anyone citizenship? You want to be a citizen, follow the rules. There's a HUGE difference between wearing a jewish yamaka and wearing something that covers your whole face and hinders identification.