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I wrote some big thing about this today on http://www.bonrop.net so I won't repeat it here. If you care, check it out.
-s

To say that school is simply a center of education, completely devoid of any and all color or entertainment is an oversimplification. Not only is school a center of learning, but it is also a social center, a place where different people, races, religions, and cultures mingle and converse with one another. It is a center for learning about life, about the cruelty of the world, about how people are "different", so therefore they are bad, and must be put down and defeated in order to make themselves feel superior at all costs. You can put in all the metal detectors and hundreds and hundreds of armed and armored security guards to monitor each and every crevice of each and every room, but the hate, the ignorance, and the predjiduce is still there. The whole problem with school violence stems from those three things. There IS no one problem, and there is no one solution. The REAL question here is what is it that CAN be done that will END these problems?

I'm sure some people out there would say that, in this case, he was not quite right in the head. That may be true, but the problems I mentioned above account for most of the previous school shootings, right? In this case, somebody should have pointed out his mental disability. If his parents knew about it, then they are just as guilty as he for not doing anything to help their son. He could have been helped, but was not. People now just seek to place blame, to give a target to their mounting anger. They will undoubtedly become that target.

This is a sad thing, but it doesn't have to happen again.

OK, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, all of them the entire corporate media empire is nothing but a bunch of fucking idiots. It is very clear that all of these kids that have shot up schools were shunned by the so called "elite" of their classmates. Thats why they had targeted jocks, and the popular kids. These people generally are fuckers. They tend to fuck with people that are not "as cool" as they are. The media tries to blame violent movies, music,the kids parents or whatever. These kids were pushed over the edge by these jock asshole mother fuckers. If you fuck with somebody enough and they hit their bowling point they are going to strike back.

Here's an Idea!
Punish Children who insist on teasing schoolmates.
Fire teachers who do nothing about children getting teased.
Teach chlidren that they don't have to wear this or listen to that to be cool.
Parents get off thier fat asses and discipline thier children who do this teasing shit.
Replace know-nothing "counslers" with licensed Psychiatrists.

As for this and Columbine and all others schools,
not only are the gun toting kids at fault, BUT EVERYONE ELSE IS TO BLAME, TOO!!!
Yes, teachers, parents, schoolmates that tease others for not accepting an MTV lifestyle, EVERYONE!!!!

While I feel bad that lots of students died throughout the last four years, but I don't feel sorry for them.

Ok i just read about som1 blaming NG 4 a violent streak in life (no u redf ur site is cool) well thats just BULLSHIT i have been coming to NG for far too long to tolerate that shit. I like violent films i like violent animations hell i like big mother fucking guns but just think if som1 came in2 ur school blasting, i think it would change your whole outlook on what violence means. If i was to watch a movie on newgrounds and it contained some guy getting his head blown off i wouldent be influenced by that and any1 who is i'm sorry 2 say would be mentally weak.

Now lets not say somthing stupid like ng is the cause of death because the fact is IT IS NOT.
The cause of death is taunting, pressure and most of all POWER.

I watch alot of the crime investigation things and one episode featured kids who kill classmates, the tv proggramme was trying to blame classic games like doom and what not.

what i think about that is easy to say B-U-L-L--S-H-I-T

I want to tell you guys a little story about a girl in my class who is suspected to be slightly retarded. Her name is... well her name is not really important so let me continue. There are a bunch of boys in my history class who pick on her b/c she doesn’t say the smartest things in the world. Sometimes she can't control her voice all the time when she’s reading out of our textbook. When the guys make fun of her I yell at them to leave her alone, they do eventually. I always say hi to her and try starting up conversations with her. She is a very nice girl actually, she’s writing a book that she plans to sell some day. The point I'm trying to make here is if there is a kid in you class girl or boy being picked on, try talking to them make them realize that they have someone to lean on, or one day they just might end up pointing a gun to your head treating to shoot. All you need is just one bullet, one gun, and one person to kill some one. The tables can be turned very easily its up to every one else to prevent it. Thank you.

Here's a bright idea of how we can stop this!
1. Punish chlidren who tease other schoolmates for not accepting the "MTV" lifestyle.
2. Fire teachers who turn a blind eye to kids getting teased, maybe put a criminal chrge on them for child abuse.
3. When kids that get teased get sent to a counsler, send them to one who is a licensed Psychiatrist and not some know nothing who will just critizise them for not fitting into a lifestyle.
4. Parents get up off thier fat asses and teach these kids discipline!

Santana, Colombine, Jonesboro, while I do not condone the gun toting kids killing other kids, but with shoddy teachers, principals, counslers, parents and "MTV" kids, I'll just say this....
THOSE FUCKS HAD IT COMING! I DO NOT FEEL SORRY FOR THEM ONE BIT! THEY DESERVED IT!

THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT!!

First off, I am glad the Ross has brought up the subject, but secondly as a friend to many abused and rediculed kids in my school you must ask... When will the pestering stop? But the answer that comes to our minds first is no. No, we can not stop people from teasing other students they consider lower in the ranks. Also as a member of a catholic/private school we are all tought to love one another as Jesus loves us and to treat thou as thou should treat you. But, in the subject of shootings, I must make a comparison. As a child in school fires are verbal and mental bullet at another whats to say that this student shall not fire a phisical bullet at this student instead.
On another note, we must always point a finger. In the tradgic story of columbine the shooters classmates had said that they were not teased and they were not the outcasts of the school. They were just normal people like the rest of us, yet, we blame others saying that they had tortured their demented souls and taunted their minds pursuading them to shoot one another, i think not.
We must also point a large finger at television, music, and contreversial websites such as newgrounds.com when most times these factors help most dirupted children relax themselves at times. When they hear the sick twisted words of the Insane Clown Posse's "tilt a whirl" or any other song that involves killing of some sort they take their anger out on that. And what we must think into a deeper level an look into the mind of a disturbed child instead of washing his mind and embarrising him with mental tests such as the ones Ross had mentioned earlier.
And, after all this is said and done and everyone is relinquished of their blame we turn to the parents. Now, this is when you must say, WHAT THE FUCK? Am i correct? Sometimes when kids are mentally disrupted, the parents do not have any control even when they try their very hardest. But, in case of premature parenthood we must step in the way of religion and ask first of all what were you doing sleeping around so much that you could get pregnant even while wearing rubber. And then when parents of premature parents abandon their children these parents dont know what to do so they wing it and some times end up helping their kids do more wrong then right. And in qoute of my trained to be dirty furby, "Time to wak off"

Your right, where were the parents?

I am sick of school shootings. Yes they are a "trend," yes they it is (very often) the fault of non-caring parents, and yes they will become more common.

MORE COMMON? Yep, that's what I said. Let's look at it. The early shootings started out fairly organized and well planned (Columbine being the most). This new one in California seemed MUCH less planned. The kid used a single weapon of poor choice for the "task" (in my opinion). He also fired into the bathroom stall. I think that this kid saw the other school shootings, toyed with the idea, and was just pushed too far one day.

The sad truth is that people blame everything (games, music, websites) except for the murderer. People need to get thier head out of their asses.

Maybe it's not getting through to people, I dunno. I say this from experience that if you tease somebody constantly without giving them a break, you're going to drive them to the breaking point. But what most people (especially the media) don't realize I guess is that people who are teased constantly feel they have few friends, are depressed, and lonely. Sure the motive for the kid may have been getting revenge on people, but more than likely, this was just a kid who wanted attention. And what better way to get attention than to have your name plastered all over the front headlines of every newspaper in the country? Maybe the media doesn't realize that the more they put the spotlight on this sort of thing the more kids who have been kicked around their whole life will look at it and say, "Wow, look at all the attention this guy's getting!" By putting so much emphasis on one school shooting, you've possibly spawned several more.

Now, they say the kid was smiling when he walked out of the bathroom, fired off two more shots, then went back in the bathroom. Why? That's anyone's guess. Maybe it was the feeling of revenge coursing through his veins. Maybe it was knowing that he would soon become known nation-wide. Who knows? The bottom line is that the media needs to stop putting so much flipping attention towards school shootings, or else they will continue to become worse, and more numerous.

Right on man, right on.

(The solution, if there is one, is light-years away - but each opinion that is expressed gets us a little bit closer.)

There is no true solutuion. Although the problem can be decreased human nature natturally tend torward voilence to exprees feelings. The only way to stop violence is to change natural thoughts and that comes with more mentors for kids at school to come to with problems and for our nation to not just talk about how bad but actually doing something. People can be such hypocripts by saying lets change this but then they go off and make fun of someone and build up anger once again.

That made me so sad!

At 3/6/01 01:23 AM, Ross wrote: The details are different, but the outcome is the same: it happened again.

On Monday morning, a 15-year-old 9th-grader in Southern California opened fire with a .22 revolver, killing two people and injuring 13. Inevitably, comparisons to Columbine are made, and people cry, scratch their heads, and ask, "How could this have happened?"

But should we be surprised? Doesn't everyone in high school know someone who gets picked on and teased until he or she feels they have to strike back? Haven't we learned anything from the school shootings that preceded yesterday's tragedy? But what is there to learn? Is a school shooting a freak occurrence, or is it indicative of a greater trend? And what about the standard question - "where were the parents?"

There are problems in our society, and incidents like this put the spotlight on some very big ones. So what do we do? Investigate any student who ever expresses ill will towards their teachers and/or schoolmates? Beef up security at the schools? More closely monitor the mental health of the students? What do you say to someone who might seriously be considering violence as a release?

I don't ask these questions because of my affiliation with NG - I ask them as a future parent and a future teacher who knows that something here is very wrong. The solution, if there is one, is light-years away - but each opinion that is expressed gets us a little bit closer.

Click here to read what others are saying on our BBS. What do you think?

Way to go Ross. Anyways I can remember feeling trapped and helpless cause of 5 guys would back me up in the bathroom and beat the shit out of me and then I would go to the principal or my teacherand they would say I was fucking lying. Or if I had brusis they would just slap those assholes on the hand and give up with punishments. If anyones going to have kids you should just do stuff like homebirth homeschool and things. All that social bullshit is just a ploy. Like they won't have friends in the neighborhood. Anyways just look it up on yahoo or something its a lot better.

I live near Santee and heard about the shooting very early. First there were 3 wounded. Then 6. Then 13. Then 1 dead......It was shocking.

Santee has the lowest crime rate around here, but that didn't stop the shooter.

What everybody really fails to see is what might help stop this from happening again. The shooter was picked on, but everybody is! The media made it seem like that was why he shot all those people. He picked back on the people who picked on him! A big reason why this wasn't stopped was because nobody takes this shit seriously. The shooter had talked about doing it for a week. His friends didn't take him seriously. His friends' parents knew about it and didn't do anything. They should have. I mean, shit man, if you go on a plane and crack a joke about having a bomb, your ass isn't gonna be flying anywhere but to an interogation room!

I'm done...

Oh well... I live nowhere near the states, but we hear alot about these school shootings, and some years ago up here in Norway some 7-10 year old boys raped and murdered a small girl, I'm not too sure of the details... it's damn scary that small kids are capable of such...

One can't really blame one single thing for this, there are a lot of factors counting in...
Bad violent parents surely can be an important factor, leaving the kid without a good image of right and wrong as most people know it.
Also, the kids can't really be blamed (too much) for such... when you are pushed to the limit where you take a gun along to the school intending to kill someone, you're not thinking rationally, you're just plain pissed off. I think most "normal" persons at any age would have killed someone that harrased them if catched at the right moment and given an opportunity, a gun in their hand.

Another bright, good point made by amoque, is that the gun itself also is to blame a lot for this. You don't have to face the victim or understand your actions. It shouldn't be possible for kids to get firearms at all, but they seem to get it from gangs, or take it from relatives without their permission anyway.

I always get angry when people are complaining about violent movies, games and so on is to blame for it. Most kids understand that violence is no good, and that it get serious consequenses. Still, one has to face the fact that it undeniably is a source for inspiration and possibilites.

People complain about there being more and more school killings, but with rapid population growth, and more and more firearms, there has to get more and more killings. Actually school killings is a rarity. It happens, maybe a year between each time (wild guess), and in different schools. How many schools are there in the U.S.? How many kids at school are there in the U.S.? The numbers actually are microscopic, and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Say, 1 of 50 victims of teasing gets so upset, he actually wants to kill the person. 1 of 500 might actually do something to accomplish this. 1 of 2000 might run the entire line out. These numbers make sense to me, I don't know about the rest of you, but

I'm surprised.
What can we do about it?

Well, parents can hide their weapons better, lock them in and carry the key on them, or hide it. Metal detectors at school is a very good idea. Maybe 1 of 100 cases (if you don't like the number make your own) where a kid is carrying a weapon at school will lead to shootings. Hopefully this won't provoke reactions from scared kids with guns, but will lower the ammount of guns carried by kids. We should also try not to leave vurnerable people alone, fighting the bullies by themself.

And even if it is a terrible thing, we should be damn happy there are no more shootings than there already are.

Yep, I'm done.

At 3/6/01 11:03 AM, Captain_Bob wrote:

At 3/6/01 10:44 AM, NuKe929 wrote: I agree totally, Ross! Those who make others feel unworthy of living are unworthy of living.

WHAT THE FUCK??

Yeah, they made fun of me, let's go shoot 'em, that will show them. That is EXACTLY what is wrong with these kids that do the shootings, that attitude. Yeah, sure, picking on someone is bad, but is it is not worth killing someone. If you have ever lost a loved one, you know that death is the worst thing there is by about 20,000 times. It is permament, no coming back. The ONLY thing that warrants death is murder, certaintly not picking on someone. What the hell will that solve? He called me stupid, I think I'll go kill him and his friends.

No thats not hte thing. When your picked on for so long. WIth no support from anyone. You stray. You build up. You find a way to stop it and you kill that person. Its just crazy. They just snap and not having anyone asking. Hey whats wrong?
Its just to much stress till these kids get so violent inside that it lashes out. I've had it before and beat the shit out of a kid with my barehands so bad he wasn't in shcool for a month. Its just that people shouldn't be so aggresive torwards each other and this wouldn't happen.

It seems like a lot of people feel too sorry for this guy. We've all been made fun of at one time or another. Just as bad as anyone else. And I think people forget that things go both ways. Who's to say this kid didn't bring it on himself, not by being different, but by being an asshole. I'm not saying that's how it was, just a possibility. And I've seen plenty of people on the news talking about how great of kid he was. So it isn't like he didn't have friends. Anyway, maybe this kid was a jerk, and very few liked him, so he shot em. And it's often that people segregate them selves on purpose. They try as hard as they can to be different from the norm, to be excluded. There's a chance he made fun of them just as much as they made fun of him. But because he wasn't in the majority, we should feel bad for him.

And there's no way you can blame this on guns. If there weren't guns, he would have found another way to kill people. I can garuntee he wouldn't have thought "Man, I want to kill people, but there aren't any guns. Well nevermind, I won't kill anyone then." He would have found a way to do it. Knifes, tools, bats, anything really. And he probably could have killed two people (I think that was the count) with any of those. Well, now everyones going to get mad at me and tell me how wrong I am. Drats.

At 3/6/01 02:54 AM, redfxdotnet wrote:

At 3/6/01 02:24 AM, Ravanos wrote: I don't think guns are the problem. They're only the tools. If someone wated to lash out violently, they could do so with a knife, or a gallon of gasoline, or a propane tank...

I was just watching the newscasts on it and they said this kid's father had a bunch of guns. So I'll have to disagree with you.

Um... I may be no one... but I know what it means to grow up in a house full of firearms. I'm in the NRA, and I have marksmanship medals and such.. just what the hell does it mean to blame the guns? How they were stored, yes. How they were placed in the child's mind as a tool or a toy, yes. How the parents may be to blame for lack-of-teaching or complete idiocy.... maybe.

I've sometimes thought about what I could do with my firearms knowledge, but I've also realized that life is precious, no matter what it is, and that this is reality. If I killed someone, there would be no 'second chance'. Maybe someone should just stand up and say: "If we're going to allow ANY type of weapon around our children, should we not teach them what those weapons can do? And what the difference between the tv and games and such, and reality."

Of course... I know you'll still disagree with me.

At 3/6/01 06:28 AM, amoqe wrote: The standard line wheeled out by those who believe in the right to own guns is 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. That may be true, but the gun certainly helps. I don't think there would be as much trouble if this kid had run around his school shouting BANG! at people. But seriously, speaking as someone who lives in the UK where handgun ownership is illegal, guns are bad things. They may simply be tools, but their sole purpose is to kill. What ever way you look at it, whether they are used for self-defence or sport etc..., they are designed to kill. I really can't see any redeeming features in them. Its not as though guns are completely unnecessary, but a country where no private individual owns handguns is a safer country. Someone may be just as likely to mug me with a knife, but I would rather take my chances with a knife and then a gun. I can imagine that killing someone with a gun is a very impersonal thing compared with a knife. All you have to do is pull the trigger and they are gone. With a knife it is not so easy, it will be messy and you will have to confront the reality of what you are doing. So guns aren't just the same as other 'tools'. They make killing someone easy, it allows someone to distance themselves from what they were doing. Maybe if that kid had only been able to get hold of a hunting knife he would not have been able to do what he did; he would not have been able to escape the reality of what he was doing. Personally, I think it would be preferrable to legalise heroin over guns. I am sensitive to arguments of personal liberty, but people who invoke that argument don't seem to realise that they are invoking it on behalf of a cause that really is not worthy. Perhaps banning guns is not the answer, but then anyone who has any sense of social responsibility should find the idea of guns completely abhorrent.

You are a very intolerant person.. for someone whom cannot stand intolerant people. You are just another European bigot that is anti-gun because you don't have the same rights we hold so damn dearly.

If I happen to be wrong (unlikely) then prove me wrong. Anyone that'd use a knife on a person would know that while shooting is slightly more inmpersonal, it is the same thing: murder. Death of something that was innocent, and still alive, before you shot it.

Try responding more logically next time. And try to remember that robbing the world of life is horrid. No matter the circumstances.

I think that the cause for all of this mess is the media. What is the easiest way to become an instant celebrity in this country? Massacre a whole bunch of people thats how! Look at all of the coverage these kid killers are getting. They get coverage on tv, photos printed in Time and Newsweek. These people will be forever remembered in American history. Some freak will probally even write a book about these events claiming to get inside the minds of these killers. Look at the freak who killed John Lennon. He even admits that he did it so he could become "somebody" . As long as the newsmedia makes stars out of these killers there will be more to come.

At 3/6/01 01:23 AM, Ross wrote: The details are different, but the outcome is the same: it happened again.

On Monday morning, a 15-year-old 9th-grader in Southern California opened fire with a .22 revolver, killing two people and injuring 13. Inevitably, comparisons to Columbine are made, and people cry, scratch their heads, and ask, "How could this have happened?"

But should we be surprised? Doesn't everyone in high school know someone who gets picked on and teased until he or she feels they have to strike back? Haven't we learned anything from the school shootings that preceded yesterday's tragedy? But what is there to learn? Is a school shooting a freak occurrence, or is it indicative of a greater trend? And what about the standard question - "where were the parents?"

There are problems in our society, and incidents like this put the spotlight on some very big ones. So what do we do? Investigate any student who ever expresses ill will towards their teachers and/or schoolmates? Beef up security at the schools? More closely monitor the mental health of the students? What do you say to someone who might seriously be considering violence as a release?

I don't ask these questions because of my affiliation with NG - I ask them as a future parent and a future teacher who knows that something here is very wrong. The solution, if there is one, is light-years away - but each opinion that is expressed gets us a little bit closer.

Click here to read what others are saying on our BBS. What do you think?

I think all this is just a fucked up. The kid was mentally fucked up. Its not the music, games, TV, etc.
I have very strong issues towards this kind of senseless shit, an I could go on forever about this. My biggest questions are, Where was the parents? Why didnt the parents hide or prevent the kid from getting access to the weapons?

If the cause of all this school-gun-related violence is games, TV, music, etc. The cause of this shit is the shooter! Period!

BTW While I was in school I drew detailed graphic pictures (blood, guts, & gore) including weapons. I even created a level for Duke Nukem 3D that had the same layout of my school. I listen to the "wierd" shit. To top it all off my teachers even seen my work! I even like violent games. You aint heard of me shootin up my school. This is the primary reason I quit school.

Thats enough for now

I think all this is just a fucked up. The kid was mentally fucked up. Its not the music, games, TV, etc.
I have very strong issues towards this kind of senseless shit, an I could go on forever about this. My biggest questions are, Where was the parents? Why didnt the parents hide or prevent the kid from getting access to the weapons?

If the cause of all this school-gun-related violence is games, TV, music, etc. The cause of this shit is the shooter! Period! (You know everyone will say its the media)

BTW While I was in school I drew detailed graphic pictures (blood, guts, & gore) including weapons. I even created a level for Duke Nukem 3D that had the same layout of my school. I listen to the "wierd" shit. To top it all off my teachers even seen my work! I even like violent games. You aint heard of me shootin up my school. This is the primary reason I quit school.

Thats enough for now

At 3/6/01 01:23 AM, Ross wrote: The details are different, but the outcome is the same: it happened again.

On Monday morning, a 15-year-old 9th-grader in Southern California opened fire with a .22 revolver, killing two people and injuring 13. Inevitably, comparisons to Columbine are made, and people cry, scratch their heads, and ask, "How could this have happened?"

But should we be surprised? Doesn't everyone in high school know someone who gets picked on and teased until he or she feels they have to strike back? Haven't we learned anything from the school shootings that preceded yesterday's tragedy? But what is there to learn? Is a school shooting a freak occurrence, or is it indicative of a greater trend? And what about the standard question - "where were the parents?"

There are problems in our society, and incidents like this put the spotlight on some very big ones. So what do we do? Investigate any student who ever expresses ill will towards their teachers and/or schoolmates? Beef up security at the schools? More closely monitor the mental health of the students? What do you say to someone who might seriously be considering violence as a release?

I don't ask these questions because of my affiliation with NG - I ask them as a future parent and a future teacher who knows that something here is very wrong. The solution, if there is one, is light-years away - but each opinion that is expressed gets us a little bit closer.

You're right, man.

Society today is crap. We need to finally look at everyone's opinions on these matters, because they all tell a story, hold valid points and help us try to understand the minds of these people who commit these crimes. These people need help. Stop bulling others. Stop teasing. Stop aggression. It's crap like this that messes people up.

Now I live in the Bahamas, and thank God, nothing has happened yet. But we need to shape up here, too. It's not our schools are totally perfect. I know a kid who was thisclose from bringing in a gun and shooting up our school. We need to recognize these symptoms and get the people help.

Peace and Love,
Xavier_11

The problem goes waaay back beyond the parents. The problem in our society is the ,"It's not my fault," attitude. Everyone is incredibly willing to pass the blame to someone else. We order coffee at McDonald's and are surprised when its hot. Our society is becoming more and more selfish. Parents pursue careers instead of child-rearing; children are little more than status symbols to some parents. These parents just have children, they don't take care of them. The kid gets dumped at daycare or a friend's house as Mom/Dad dash off to work. Children's family life is disrupted when they must bear the consequences of the impractical union of two selfish individuals who conveniently forget the, "until death do we part," part of their vows. Children are just pawns that divorced parents manipulate to gain favor, custody, and alimony/child support payments. Society feels more sorrow for the perpetrator of the atrocity than the victim. We psychoanalyze the why of it and make excuses about a child's home life, social status, mental state, etc, instead of owing up to its failures and faults. Until people start realizing that everyone is responsible for the proper upbringing of every child, not just relatives and educators, but all people children see, this horrible trend will continue, ad nauseum. People will continue to pass the blame until it falls on those who cannot defend themselves (generally the victims), make excuses, and hold meaningless memorial ceremonies to ease their own personal heartache. NONE OF THIS WILL STOP THE PROBLEM! We have to find a way within our society's context to make a person realize he/she is more than just secularly culpable.

I think it all begins with parent's upbringing of the children (or lack thereof, either fromm divorce or mortal loss of a parent). If the child has relatively "cold" parents and don't show affection on a somewhat normal basis, then a child might be prone to an outwardly cruel behavior. I think we all have been part of a group who has made fun of someone else to some extent, either out of jealousy or internal insecurity. But daily harassment shows that there is definately a fault on the party(parties) whom have been hounding this child to such an extent. Of course he could have saught out help from school staff, as I did once or twice to restrain myself from royally kicking the hell out of loudmouths who think it impressive to verbally put someone down (where we all know the ladies like it when you physically put someone down with your fist to their head)(untrue,sarcastic) So basically its a combination of both sides that made it happen. 15 is an age where you can make desicions for yourserlf (altho his friends didnt look like they were straight edge when on the interview) thats my piece.
Walk in the sunlight with everyone smiling around you. makes the place a much warmer place

At 3/6/01 07:35 PM, SithLaird wrote:

At 3/6/01 02:54 AM, redfxdotnet wrote:

At 3/6/01 02:24 AM, Ravanos wrote: I don't think guns are the problem. They're only the tools. If someone wated to lash out violently, they could do so with a knife, or a gallon of gasoline, or a propane tank...

I was just watching the newscasts on it and they said this kid's father had a bunch of guns. So I'll have to disagree with you.

Um... I may be no one... but I know what it means to grow up in a house full of firearms. I'm in the NRA, and I have marksmanship medals and such.. just what the hell does it mean to blame the guns?

A lot of you seem to disagree with me :) but that's fine with me. The point I was getting at wasn't that guns should be totally illegal and are totally the problem. You can own a firearm in my country but you need a reason to have it and as far as I'm aware there's quite a process in getting one. I only know 1 person that personally owns a gun for hunting and he's a police officer and keeps them locked, AND locked in a gun cabinet - where they're supposed to be. Besides that, guns are totally foreign to me and as far as I'm concerned have no place in my country.

YES, there are responsible gun owners in the US, of course. But just think, pretty much anyone can get one... that your mother, your father, that crazy neighbour of yours, that wierd looking guy you saw in the store, that wild 15 year old who lives next door... heck, they probably all have one. So the problem is that there are so many and they're so easy to get. I stick to what I said before that the US would be 100 times better if every John Smith didn't have a gun! I'm afraid half the time i'm in the US because I figure anyone could have a gun... get pissed and shoot me right there. In my country (Canada) the likelyhood of someone having a gun with them is slim to nil. (You guys should settle your problems like we do, with hockey sticks and fists hehe ) Also - my friends were heldup at gunpoint last year in South Carolina on a golf trip, isn't that a nice way to spend your vacation? You guys can argue with me all you want on this point about easy access to guns, but I know I'm right :) and if you still disagree with me, I don't really care... it's your country and if you want guns there go ahead, just keep em away from me.

(ALso, a few posts up a guy made an excellent point that I missed... what is the main purpose of a gun? to KILL something)

Click here to read what others are saying on our BBS. What do you think?

I think that the parents should open their eyes...it aint the music...its the peers

At 3/6/01 07:45 PM, SithLaird wrote:

You are a very intolerant person.. for someone whom cannot stand intolerant people. You are just another European bigot that is anti-gun because you don't have the same rights we hold so damn dearly.

If I happen to be wrong (unlikely) then prove me wrong. Anyone that'd use a knife on a person would know that while shooting is slightly more inmpersonal, it is the same thing: murder. Death of something that was innocent, and still alive, before you shot it.

Try responding more logically next time. And try to remember that robbing the world of life is horrid. No matter the circumstances.

First of all, my signature is a joke, it is illogical. How can I hate intolerant people if I am one due to my not being able to stand them.

Secondly, you seem to have misread my argument. My point was that someone who would use a gun, would not necessarily use a knife because it is not as impersonal as a gun (not the other way around). I do not disagree that if someone wants to kill someone they will find a way, but guns make it incredibly easy for people to do so. Too easy.

Thirdly, I do not know where you got the idea that I 'forgot' that any taking of life is horrible. It is quite hard to forget something like that.

Fourthly, I doubt you have any idea of the rights that I have as a British citizen. How can I be anti-gun because I don't have the right to bear arms. They are seperate things. The law was only changed in the last couple of years in my country and I was in favour of it. I was anti-gun even before the law prevented me owning one.

Fifthly, I do not like the fact that you refer to me as European. It my be hard for alot of Americans to comprehend this, but there alot of different countries in Europe which have very different ideas about the way in which things should be done. Lumping as all together is just a symptom of the American attitude that you are superior to everyone else. I am not an intolerant person, if you think you can justify guns without rhetoric or dogma then please reply.

Sixthly, you seem to have missed my point that perhaps the right to bear arms is not a right that should be held dearly if you have any sense of social responsibility.

I'll leave all of you who read this post soemthing to think about. Regular police in the UK do not carry guns because it is unnecessary. Imagine that.