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And since when do you negotiate with terrorists or non governmental organizations? I think the answer is never. And yes, you are still a hypocrite.

Since when is the UN a terrorist organization? As I recall, Israel still has not complied with the 30-year-old UN resolution calling on it to withdraw from the Occupied Territories. How the hell are small Arab nations going to tell Israel what to do when it won't even listen to the fucking UN? Spare me.

And do you have any comment on you supporting pointless violence because that is all it is. It serves no purpose except to kill. It hastens nothing and only furthers death.

It is the only possible method which less powerful Arab nations can force Israel to comply with international law. I don't think sending roses will help. What the hell should they do? Israel is illegally occupying their land and subjecting them to horrible conditions and crippling poverty. That grave injustice cannot, in good conscience, be allowed to stand uncontested. Arabs should not lie down and take Israeli imperialism without fighting back. What other recourse do they have? If there is a chance, no matter how miniscule, that the violence will lead Israel to withdraw, they should jump upon that opportunity. If Israel cares even one iota about its civilians, then it will "dis-engage" from the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Golan Heights.

At 10/26/06 05:00 PM, Begoner wrote: Since when is the UN a terrorist organization?

Sorry, I didnt know Hamas and Hezbollah are the local arms of the UN. I must have missed the news one of those days.

Its nice you like to pretend that Hamas and Hezbollah are actually carrying out the UN's wishes. Whoopsy.

It is the only possible method which less powerful Arab nations can force Israel to comply with international law.

So you are naive enough to think sporadic murderers (that is exactly what they are, they target no infrastructure, no person waranting of assasination, no military, just random murders) will force Israel to do anything but want to go kill people? Huh.

I don't think sending roses will help. What the hell should they do?

Turn the other cheek. Its the exact same thing I would advise the Israeli leadership. Violence is winning nothing here. It onlt fuels more violence.

That grave injustice cannot, in good conscience, be allowed to stand uncontested.

Arabs murdering Israeli citizens cannot, in good conscience, be allowed to stand uncontested.

Arabs should not lie down and take Israeli imperialism without fighting back.

Israelis should not lie down and take Arab genocide without fighting back.

What other recourse do they have? If there is a chance, no matter how miniscule, that the violence will lead Israel to withdraw, they should jump upon that opportunity.

What other recourse do they have? If there is a chance, no matter how miniscule, that the violence will lead Arabs to stop their campaign of genocide, they should jump upon that opportunity.

If Israel cares even one iota about its civilians, then it will "dis-engage" from the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Golan Heights.

If Arab leaders care even one iota about their civilians, then they will "stop-blowing-shit-the-fuck-up" all over the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Golan Heights.

Begoner is right man. Hamas are just poor misunderstood people who are tired of being kicked by the evil civilians who do not want to die in a blazing explosion. ALLAH AKBAR! [KILLS ALL WHO DO NOT ARGREE WITH HIM]

Sorry, I didnt know Hamas and Hezbollah are the local arms of the UN. I must have missed the news one of those days.

Of course they're not; they, too, are guilty of war crimes. However, that does not excuse Israel for refusing to follow a long-standing UN resolution and give peace a chance. Hezbollah is not a knight in shining armor, but it's the best thing that the Arabs have got.

So you are naive enough to think sporadic murderers (that is exactly what they are, they target no infrastructure, no person waranting of assasination, no military, just random murders) will force Israel to do anything but want to go kill people? Huh.

Maybe, one day, an Israeli is going to wake up and wonder why the hell the Arabs are trying to slaughter Israelis. Maybe he'll realize that Israel is the one who is spawning this violence. Maybe he'll come to the conclusion that Israel should withdraw from the territories it is illegally occupying so that there will be a brighter future for the entire region. Are you so naive as to think that Israel will give the land back if the Arabs don't even attempt to fight for it? Huh.

At 10/26/06 05:27 PM, texicomexico wrote: Begoner is right man. Hamas are just poor misunderstood people who are tired of being kicked by the evil civilians who do not want to die in a blazing explosion. ALLAH AKBAR! [KILLS ALL WHO DO NOT ARGREE WITH HIM]

Please stop spamming and allow more intelligent people to debate your point. You're not helping your cause with such inane posts, you know.

At 10/26/06 05:28 PM, Begoner wrote: Are you so naive as to think that Israel will give the land back if the Arabs don't even attempt to fight for it? Huh.

The thing is ultimately Arabs will fight for their land and their lives. Any person who is witnessing their land annexed from them and their people slaughtered will resort to any means in order to stop the invaders, occupiers etc. If you were in a situation where a country was slaughtering your people including women and children would you stand idly by or fight? Any person with a conscience would fight. Just look at Nelson Mandela and the ANC during South Africa's Apartheid regime. The ANC was seen as a terrorist organisation by alot of the world, however they were resorting to violence because it was the only means to stop the opression.

Well Begoner, you know what is stupid? The fact that you are a lame, jew hating, poster. If you cared so much about the poor Hamas you would do more then just spend most of your time saying radical on a website forum. The previous post I made was showing that, by your own logic, that you have some whacked out views. Your sig, which compares us Jews to the people that killed 2.5` MILLION Jews is racist. You think that killing of civilians is okay, the same idea that Hitler had. I detest you because you are an arrogant prick. The guy that you are debating is unbiased towards one group. You whine about Jews fighting back, and yet it is a-ok if a Terrorists attacks a wedding,.library, or even a school. I hope you burn in hell.

You whine about Jews fighting back, and yet it is a-ok if a Terrorists attacks a wedding,.library, or even a school. I hope you burn in hell.

Well, I have no grudge against Jews in general -- just Israel. And Nazi Germany also claimed that it was "fighting back" against Poland. It claimed that WWII was a war of "self-defense." Ironically, Israel claims the same thing, yet it is the one massacring Arabs and stealing their lands. However, I wish you no ill will -- you are simply misguided in your views. However, I must mention that your last sentence was not very tolerant at all.

At 10/26/06 05:34 PM, neoptolemus wrote: The thing is ultimately Arabs will fight for their land and their lives. Any person who is witnessing their land annexed from them and their people slaughtered will resort to any means in order to stop the invaders, occupiers etc.

The only reason they are being killed and controlled is because of the actions people like Nasrallah are taking. They kill Israelis, Israel retaliates out of proportion, pisses off more people, start the Intifada, more response, more killings, repeat.

Any person with a conscience would fight.

Any person with a conscience wouldnt blow a fucking busload of people up who you dont know and have done nothing to you. Dont play these moral games.

Just look at Nelson Mandela and the ANC during South Africa's Apartheid regime.

I dont know enough to speak on their actions, this was before my time but I know enough to say this is not relevant. Apartheid South Africa was a creature created completly by the white colonialists. The fucked up situation in Israel both sides share a large hand in creating. Israel is not the only agressor here and I have yet to see anyone prove to me they continue to annex land or have ANY imperialistic ambitions. As a matter of fact, they are in the process of leaving land. Hardly imperialistic.

Israels fault is a lack of understanding of the complexities of the situation. I cannot fault them for trying to set up some border areas (the places they gobbled up after wars of agression were faught against them). They are a very small country so it is understandable, however wrong it is. I cannot fault the want to respond to violence with violence. But their fault is not understanding the violence they start only continues more violence. They dont understand why Arabs attack in the first place, because they live in shit conditions with little chance in life. It is a crime of arrogance. The terrorists crimes, well, they speak for themselves. They bomb busses and hotels packed with innocent civilians that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. I dont need to say anything else.

At 10/26/06 05:28 PM, Begoner wrote: Maybe, one day, an Israeli is going to wake up and wonder why the hell the Arabs are trying to slaughter Israelis.

Maybe, one day, an Arab is going to wake up and wonder why the hell the Israelis are trying to slaughter Arabs.

Maybe he'll realize that Israel is the one who is spawning this violence.

Maybe he'll realize that Arabs are the ones who are spawning this violence.

Maybe he'll come to the conclusion that Israel should withdraw from the territories it is illegally occupying so that there will be a brighter future for the entire region.

Maybe he'll come to the conclusion that Arabs should stop blowing Israelis up from the territories they are living in so that there will be a brighter future for the entire region.

Do you honestly not see how easy it is to expect everything from one side and nothing from another? Because the way I said it, there would be peace if it happened. Is it realistic? Hell no. Its about as realistic as you thinking Arabs strapping bombs to their chest will force Israel to stop fighting back.

You are expecting Israel to do everything and Arabs to do nothing. You are actually encouraging Arabs to continue to kill Israelis on the off chance it may one day cause some sort of epiphany to change from the revenge mentality that permeates both sides.

Are you so naive as to think that Israel will give the land back if the Arabs don't even attempt to fight for it? Huh.

I dont know, everytime Arabs have fought for land they just end up losing more. If history is any indicator, I would suggest the Arabs to not fight at all. At least that way they would still have Jerusalem. Because that is the only time Israel has expanded from their '47 borders, when they are invaded and they counter attack.

And yeah, they actually have given away some of their land already. It was half assed and stupid in my opinion but they withdrew from the Gaza Strip already. No fighting, Sharon just withdrew.

At 10/26/06 05:50 PM, Begoner wrote:

You whine about Jews fighting back, and yet it is a-ok if a Terrorists attacks a wedding,.library, or even a school. I hope you burn in hell.

. And Nazi Germany also claimed that it was "fighting back" against Poland. It claimed that WWII was a war of "self-defense." Ironically, Israel claims the same thing, yet it is the one massacring Arabs and stealing their lands.

The difference here is that Israel IS fighting back, because the`Arabs struke 1st. Also, Israel is not taking any land. The country has not changed in 30 years. Still though, If you care so much why do you spend most of your time on the forum?

I dont know, everytime Arabs have fought for land they just end up losing more. If history is any indicator, I would suggest the Arabs to not fight at all. At least that way they would still have Jerusalem. Because that is the only time Israel has expanded from their '47 borders, when they are invaded and they counter attack.

I really don't see that as an adequate solution. If the Arabs stopped fighting for their land, they would be allowing Israel to get away with murder -- actually, something much worse than murder. After all, the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. And as long as none of the Arabs do anything at all, the evils perpetrated by Israel would stand uncontested. It would send the message that international law can be broken with impunity as long as you have the US on your side. That's not the message that should be sent. I'm not saying that the Arabs who fight in militias (or terrorist organizations, if you wish) are good men, but at least they're doing something -- at least they are attempting to fight for justice.

And yeah, they actually have given away some of their land already. It was half assed and stupid in my opinion but they withdrew from the Gaza Strip already. No fighting, Sharon just withdrew.

Well, they didn't withdraw for long and they still enforced a blockade of the Gaza Strip which brought Gaza to its knees and largely contributed to wide-spread poverty in the region. They may have given Palestine the house, but they still control the road leading to it. I don't see unilateral dis-engagement as that much of a positive step for the region -- a consensus must be reached and the Arab nations must be involved in the peace negotiations.

At 10/26/06 06:35 PM, Begoner wrote: After all, the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

Well said Alucard :P

My uncle is in the Canadian navy and was in Beirut for a time. I don't know what happened over there, or if he even was there long enough to rescue some people, but he's back home and in one piece (thank God).