Lebannon

[PHM]

can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)
2.do you care?

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote: can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)

Well, basically Israel in an illegal occupation in th eMiddle East which constantly aims for genocide in the region. Israel used excessive force and killed 1,187 Lebanese, many of them civilians.
Israel also targetted infrastructute (bridges etc) and thus many civilians were cut off from aid.

2.do you care?

I care. I despise injustice.

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

No i don't, however, i sympathise with all who do.

[xcrime-cyber]

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote: can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)
2.do you care?

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)

Two countries that was wrong..why ??
A country did not have the freedom if not having the co-operation

2.do you care?

yes, i care lebannon and israel..why??
In the eyes of me to two countries was very good but because the authority made a killing to be mass that I care

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

all ppl the world is my family

[dySWN]

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote: can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)

I think Israel was right in this conflict. They were attacked by a known terrorist-supporting (if not terrorists themselves) group, and they retaliated as best they could. Self defense is not a crime

2.do you care?

Yeah, I care. This was a life-or death situation with the potential to destabilize the whole region.

I happen to like the Israelis because they don't let anyone push them around.

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

Not me.

[SouthAsian]

At 10/25/06 02:17 PM, dySWN wrote:

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote: can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)

I think Israel was right in this conflict. They were attacked by a known terrorist-supporting (if not terrorists themselves) group, and they retaliated as best they could. Self defense is not a crime

2.do you care?

Yeah, I care. This was a life-or death situation with the potential to destabilize the whole region.

I happen to like the Israelis because they don't let anyone push them around.

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

Not me.

So you would side with the freshman who brings a gun to school to shoot a bunch of irritating seniors.

The Israelis are surrounded by mostly poor people who see Israel as a factor in their suffering.they see the superpower Us who does shady business and they see it passing through Israel to them.

See how an Israeli family lives compared to a Palestinian family.

[dySWN]

At 10/25/06 02:23 PM, EcKo-WR wrote:

At 10/25/06 02:17 PM, dySWN wrote:

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote: can u please give your opinion about the problems of lebannon en israel:
1.Who is right and who is wrong(lebannon or israel)

I think Israel was right in this conflict. They were attacked by a known terrorist-supporting (if not terrorists themselves) group, and they retaliated as best they could. Self defense is not a crime

2.do you care?

Yeah, I care. This was a life-or death situation with the potential to destabilize the whole region.

I happen to like the Israelis because they don't let anyone push them around.

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

Not me.

So you would side with the freshman who brings a gun to school to shoot a bunch of irritating seniors.

The Israelis are surrounded by mostly poor people who see Israel as a factor in their suffering.they see the superpower Us who does shady business and they see it passing through Israel to them.

See how an Israeli family lives compared to a Palestinian family.

Bringing a gun to school to shoot someone who isn't threatening your life isn't self-defence, but if those same people are good buddies with others (Iran) who have repeatedly vowed to kill you and your entire family, then you might want to look into protecting yourself. And just because the people around Israel are poor, that won't change the fact that the people in those countries who control all the money and all the military forces hate Israel and want to destroy it. As a nation, Israel has a right to attempt to remove strategic targets in these countries so as to lessen the risk to their own citizens. Defense is, after all, one of the few reasons for governments to exist in the first place.

[dySWN]

Furthermore, don't give me that claptrap about civilian casualties. Israel uses a lot of the same precision weapons that the US uses, and they went in with ground troops to minimize collateral damage even further. On top of that, they even warned the people to get out before they arrived, and there is evidence that many of the civilian casualties were staged by Hezbolla for the benefit of the western media.

[SouthAsian]

At 10/25/06 02:32 PM, dySWN wrote:

At 10/25/06 02:23 PM, EcKo-WR wrote:

At 10/25/06 02:17 PM, dySWN wrote:

At 10/25/06 09:44 AM, PHM wrote:

Bringing a gun to school to shoot someone who isn't threatening your life isn't self-defence, but if those same people are good buddies with others (Iran) who have repeatedly vowed to kill you and your entire family, then you might want to look into protecting yourself. And just because the people around Israel are poor, that won't change the fact that the people in those countries who control all the money and all the military forces hate Israel and want to destroy it. As a nation, Israel has a right to attempt to remove strategic targets in these countries so as to lessen the risk to their own citizens. Defense is, after all, one of the few reasons for governments to exist in the first place.

You know I agree 100% with self defense.But in this case Israel reacts way too aggresively and many many arabs grow dissillusioned with Israeli tactics.I mean you got the european Jews coming in large numbers into Palestine at the turn of the century, where a magority of Arabs have influence.Yet from right under their noses the Jews come to own nearly 50% of arab land wether the Arabs agreed to it or not.

then when the arabs come to the realization they mobilize their armies in support of the thousands of arabs who have found themselves displaced.So after the series of wars and then in between Jewish terrorist groups(Haganah,stern gang) and arab resistance we get this mess that we have today.

I'm saying that you don't fully recognise and understand the origins of this conflict and the plight of the Palestinians.

Also Iran's comments could have been taken out of context.I know what Ahmidenejad said was highly controversial,yet I know it's empty threats.He is frustrated with Israel and what it has done to the region.

BTW the patrol of Israeli troops who were attacked by Hezbollah were a secret patrol.They were under cover in other territory.thus they were vulnerable.They had no right to be in that land.Read up on it.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/25/06 02:17 PM, dySWN wrote: I think Israel was right in this conflict. They were attacked by a known terrorist-supporting (if not terrorists themselves) group,

Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organisation despite what governments say. Hezbollah views suicide bombing as immoral, they actively help innocent Lebanese civilians by giving them compensation for damaged homes. What Hezbollah is is a resistance movement to Israeli aggression towards Lebanon, that it exactly why it was formed.

and they retaliated as best they could. Self defense is not a crime

No self defense isn't a crime and thus, using that logic, Hezbollah has done nothing wrong and neither has Hamas, after all it is all in defense of civilians who are persecuted by Israel.

Israel in the right? They were attacked? no, they weren't. Israel started bombing Lebanon in response to Hezbollah taking 2 Israeli soldiers hostage (who were in southern Lebanon)as a sort of negotioation point to get some Lebanese people out of Israeli prisons.

Yeah, I care. This was a life-or death situation with the potential to destabilize the whole region.

I happen to like the Israelis because they don't let anyone push them around.

That's you're reasoning for liking people? By that logic you should like North Koreans because of this. I personally can not support Israel in anyway due to its immoral approach to it's innocent neighbours.

At 10/25/06 10:48 AM, neoptolemus wrote:

and my last question is: who has familly in lebannon?

No i don't,

Silly little monkey.

[ShardStorm]

Lebanon: Buddies with a country that has both a leader who hates Jews, and the start of an atomic program. Contains A few batsh*t insane people who are wiling to die in order to kill some israelis.

Israel: Has large military, uses it to kill lebanese people in large amounts to destroy those few batsh*t insane people.

Maybe neither sides are fricking knights in shining armor, guys.

[Demosthenez]

At 10/25/06 05:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote: Hezbollah views suicide bombing as immoral

They killed a couple hundred Marines with a suicide bomb back in the day. Bullshit.

What Hezbollah is is a resistance movement to Israeli aggression towards Lebanon, that it exactly why it was formed.

There recent "resistance" was not justified. Neither was Israels attack but do not hand them a blank check. They baited Israel into an attack. That was their exact intent.

No self defense isn't a crime and thus, using that logic, Hezbollah has done nothing wrong

Hezbollah started the recent conflict and Israel escalated, big boy. And they werent in Lebanon for the raid.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation.
Link

At 10/25/06 03:03 PM, EcKo-WR wrote: Also Iran's comments could have been taken out of context.I know what Ahmidenejad said was highly controversial,yet I know it's empty threats.He is frustrated with Israel and what it has done to the region.

There was nothing out of context with them. He quoted directly from Khomeini. It was prepared and obvious in intent.

Show to me how it could possibly be out of context.

[Begoner]

There recent "resistance" was not justified.

So what is the correct course of action that should be taken in dealing with a country which is illegally occupying not only your territory, but that of other nations? Should there be diplomatic attempts at peace? Of course -- Lebanon and other Arab countries have attempted a peaceful approach. A UN resolution was passed 30 years ago which told Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories. Unfortunately, Israel has flouted the will of the UN. The only other recourse is military action -- if the Lebanese government will not partake in a military campaign against Israel (for obvious reasons) it falls to Hezbollah to do "God's work."

Hezbollah started the recent conflict and Israel escalated, big boy.

How do you define "starting a conflict"? Hezbollah abducted 2 Israeli soldiers in an attempt to trade them for thousands of Arab prisoners who Israel had illegally kidnapped from their homes and thrown them in jail without a trial. What Hezbollah did was miniscule in comparison to Israel's transgressions, yet, amazingly, Israel saw fit to bomb the shit out of Lebanon in retaliation.

[Dragon-Smaug]

At 10/25/06 02:23 PM, EcKo-WR wrote: The Israelis are surrounded by mostly poor people who see Israel as a factor in their suffering.they see the superpower Us who does shady business and they see it passing through Israel to them.

The question is not what are the poor masses conditioned by their leaders to think, but what do YOU think. Ignorance and misunderstanding can explain actions and views, but not justify them.

See how an Israeli family lives compared to a Palestinian family.

a) So what?
b) How does the standard living conditions of Palestinians relate to Lebanon?
c) You are aware that there are many Israeli Palestinians, right?

At 10/25/06 03:03 PM, EcKo-WR wrote: But in this case Israel reacts way too aggresively and many many arabs grow dissillusioned with Israeli tactics.I mean you got the european Jews coming in large numbers into Palestine at the turn of the century, where a magority of Arabs have influence.Yet from right under their noses the Jews come to own nearly 50% of arab land wether the Arabs agreed to it or not.

I don’t see what the rest of your sentences in this paragraph have to do with the first sentence. To your first sentence; Israel has to be aggressive, passiveness has only encouraged terrorism. Compromise is useful and often necessary (think not that I argue otherwise) but when Israel does strike, it has to strike hard. To the rest; the Arabs agreed to it when they lost the war they started.

then when the arabs come to the realization they mobilize their armies in support of the thousands of arabs who have found themselves displaced.So after the series of wars and then in between Jewish terrorist groups(Haganah,stern gang) and arab resistance we get this mess that we have today.

Yeah…the difference is that Israel disbanded the terrorist groups that cropped up before it’s independence, but Arab countries are either unable or unwilling to do so.

I'm saying that you don't fully recognise and understand the origins of this conflict and the plight of the Palestinians.

The plight of the Palestinians is huge. I fail to see what this has to do with Lebanon, however.

Also Iran's comments could have been taken out of context.I know what Ahmidenejad said was highly controversial,yet I know it's empty threats.He is frustrated with Israel and what it has done to the region.

….um no. Saying that he wants to wipe a country off the face of the earth is not political lingo.

At 10/25/06 05:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote: Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organisation despite what governments say.

….

If you don’t consider them terrorists, and yet you know their methods and their goals….well then I do not have the time to argue with you.

it's innocent neighbours.

Yeah, it’s not like Israel’s neighbors have ever attacked it or anything. Go be friends with Begoner.

At 10/25/06 06:18 PM, ShardStorm wrote: Maybe neither sides are fricking knights in shining armor, guys.

While I certainly have my criticisms of Israel, and neither side is 100% righteous, there is a moral and legal high ground. One side's armor does shine brighter than the other.

[Begoner]

The plight of the Palestinians is huge. I fail to see what this has to do with Lebanon, however.

An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere. Should Britain and France have sat on their hands when Nazi Germany steamrolled over Poland? Of course not -- they came to the defense of a country which had been unlawfully attacked and had its territory illegally occupied. Similar logic applies to the situation in Lebanon and Palestine -- Hezbollah should continue attacking Israel until it withdraws its troops from Palestinian soil.

Yeah, it’s not like Israel’s neighbors have ever attacked it or anything.

The last time Israel's neighbors attacked it was 30 years ago. Since then, it has been the aggressor. Israel has been the one who has illegally demolished Arab homes to make way for Israeli ones; Israel has slaughtered Arabs, bombed refugee camps, killed members of the press, tossed Arabs in jail without a trial, kidnapped Arab civilians, including members of a democratically-elected government, etc. You can't justify the present based on the past. That would make about as much sense as Bush deciding to bomb Japan, right now, as vengeance for Pearl Harbor.

[cellardoor6]

At 10/25/06 05:35 PM, neoptolemus wrote:

Hezbollah isn't a terrorist organisation despite what governments say. Hezbollah views suicide bombing as immoral, they actively help innocent Lebanese civilians by giving them compensation for damaged homes.

You are a misinformed moron. Hezbollah IS a terrorist group. They HAVE used suicide bombs in the past, they use their own people as human shields, and they were the ones who started the whole recent conflict.

What Hezbollah is is a resistance movement to Israeli aggression towards Lebanon, that it exactly why it was formed.

What the hell are you talking about? Israel was at peace with Lebanon before the Hezbollah TERRORISTS attacked an Israel border patrol, killing some, and kidnapping 2. Israel didn't occupy any Lebanese land, it hadn't had an airstrike in Lebanon for over 8 years and Israel and the Siniora government had diplomatic relations.

If Hezbollah was protecting Lebanon, why did they attack Israel knowing full-well it would start a war that would take the lives of innocent Lebanese? If Lebanon was just a resistance group, why did intentionally cause the deaths of innocent civilians by launching rockets from civilian buildings? Why did Hezbollah have its military buildings all surrounded by civilian homes?

Hezbollah is a TERRORIST group that uses propaganda and brainwashes its people. They just use Lebanon as a staging point for attacks against Israel, they don't care about Lebanese people, they just exploit them for their own purpose of destroying Israel.

Also, almost ALL of the Muslims who live in Lebanon today migrated there from Jordan, Syria, and Palestine and took over land from the Christian Lebanese. They aren't even protecting their homeland because Lebanon isn't their homeland!

and they retaliated as best they could. Self defense is not a crime

No self defense isn't a crime and thus, using that logic, Hezbollah has done nothing wrong and neither has Hamas, after all it is all in defense of civilians who are persecuted by Israel.

Its not in defense that Hamas or Hezbollah do ANYTHING. They have broken every ceasefire, and every possible peace deal EVERYTIME. Israel has NEVER been the one to break a ceasefire or use an unprovoked attack.

Israel also doesn't target civilians, Hezbollah and Hamas ONLY target civilians. Israel targets militants who USE civilians as human shields.

That's you're reasoning for liking people? By that logic you should like North Koreans because of this. I personally can not support Israel in anyway due to its immoral approach to it's innocent neighbours.

You're a brainwashed moron. You call them INNOCENT? You call Hezbollah and Hamas innocent? You pathetic imbecile!

Look at this picture of Hamas using children as human shields, THEN say they are innocent you dipshit:

[troubles1]

If the Arabic world would just stop trying to kill every Jew there would be peace, Israel is a relatively small country let them have it. They have every right to protect there people, and are tired of these terrorists Hezbollah, and ha-mas are terrorist groups the kill innocent people. what is happening is a tragedy, and unfortunately the Muslim people have vowed to kill all the Jews, this has been going on forever. did you know that in WW2 the Muslims in the middle east were Nazis? they were trained SS soldiers by Himmler, For HITLERS ARMY, And it is continuing today. the land of ISREAL WAS GIVING TO THEM BY GOD. It is called JEWERSULIM people.
here is a link about the MUSLIM SS TROUPS who fight for HITLER. MUSLIM NAZS

[cellardoor6]

At 10/25/06 08:40 PM, Begoner wrote:

An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere. Should Britain and France have sat on their hands when Nazi Germany steamrolled over Poland? Of course not -- they came to the defense of a country which had been unlawfully attacked and had its territory illegally occupied. Similar logic applies to the situation in Lebanon and Palestine -- Hezbollah should continue attacking Israel until it withdraws its troops from Palestinian soil.

First of all, there is no such thing as "Palestinian soil" if you want to go back into history you will realize that present-day Israel and "Palestine" were the native lands of Israelites and Judeaens, NOT ARABS, not "Palestinians".

Besides, you are justifying Hezbollah in attacking Israel until "it withdraws its troops from Palestinian soil" which is completly WRONG and absurd. Hezbollah doesn't even fight for Palestine which is mostly Sunni, Hezbollah is a Shia organization that is a proxy militant group that is controlled by Iran! It doesn't really give a shit about the Palestinians them as a propaganda tool.

The last time Israel's neighbors attacked it was 30 years ago.

Wrong. They might not have attacked Israel directly with their military, but that is just because they know Israel would obliterate them quite easily. So they resort to covertly supporting and funding, and supplying terrorist acts and utilizing propaganda as a tool against Israel. The Arabs know they can't defeat Israel militarily, so they resort to deceptive propaganda wars to discredit Israel in the international arena, and they resort to using Islam as a tool to brainwash young palestinians into strapping bombs to their chest and going into Israeli towns and killing innocent people.

Since then, it has been the aggressor. Israel has been the one who has illegally demolished Arab homes to make way for Israeli ones;

Completely justified. It was used as deterrance quite effectively. If a suicide bomber attacked Israel, the Israelis would destroy the homesof the suicide bombers' family.. This lowered suicide bombing exponentially when it was implemented.

Israel has slaughtered Arabs, bombed refugee camps, killed members of the press, tossed Arabs in jail without a trial, kidnapped Arab civilians, including members of a democratically-elected government, etc.

Yes Israel slaughters terrorists who use their own people as human shields (look at the picture below). Terrorists use their own people so A) the Israelis who actually have decency might hesitate to fire back knowing that it might injure innocents. B) when Israelis HAVE to fire back to protect their own lives, innocent people are killed and then Hamas/ Hezbollah have an opportunity to create propaganda against Israel by taking the incident out of context and brainwashing their people by saying "Israel killed children for no reason".

But everything you listed has been done MUCH MORE so by the Palestinians. Palestinians have murdered journalists, assassinated Israeli democratically elected officials, captured innocent Israeli civilians and BEHEADED THEM for no reason. Then you ignore the fact that more Palestinians have been killed by Palestinians since the intifada than ISraelis have, but I'm sure they blamed it on Israel to create propaganda.

In fact, Palestinians have actually killed their own people for the purpose of creating propaganda that they could stage effectively for maximum effect on misinformed audiences. Go here for proof.

You can't justify the present based on the past. That would make about as much sense as Bush deciding to bomb Japan, right now, as vengeance for Pearl Harbor.

You are such a freaking hypocrite. Yet you are justifying the what Hezbollah and Hamas do for Israel taking land in the late 40s and early 50s.

Israel isn't doing anything because of the past. Israel attacks when IT IS ATTACKED. It targets terrorists, and militant groups. Hezbollah and Hamas almost NEVER actually target Israel military, they want to kill innocent people at every opportunity. If Israel was as evil as Hamas and Hezbollah and had their goals, there wouldn't be one Palestinian or Lebanese Muslim left alive today. And coversely, if Hamas/Hezbollah had the military power that Israel has, there would be NO Israelis, no Christians or Jews left alive in the Holy land.

You're so misinformed you can't see reality. And the REALITY is that the Palestinian Hamas militants, and Hezbollah WANT their own people to die, they WANT innocent people to die on both sides, for propaganda effect. They want to DESTROY Israel, and kill every last Christian and Jew in the holy land.

Israel doesn't use its own children as human shields like the Palestinians do:

[EnragedSephiroth]

At 10/26/06 03:56 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Israel doesn't use its own children as human shields like the Palestinians do:

Yes we saw the picture the first time dude. I think there's a general concensus both sides were out of line and should be punished for their actions in some way, shape or form. Has any punishment been handed out though?

[cellardoor6]

At 10/26/06 05:00 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

At 10/26/06 03:56 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Israel doesn't use its own children as human shields like the Palestinians do:

Yes we saw the picture the first time dude.

I didn't mean to post the same one the second time.

I think there's a general concensus both sides were out of line and should be punished for their actions in some way, shape or form. Has any punishment been handed out though?

Um Israel doesn't have to be punished because everything it has done in recent history has been done lawfully. Israel obeys the rules of war.

Hezbollah and Hamas however, are terrorist groups that uphold no law, they just use everything in their power to kill innocent people, that is their goal. They CHEAR when innocent Israelis are killed, yet label the Israelies "barbarians" for propaganda affect when innocent Palestinians/Lebanese were killed. And when these things happened Israelis mourned for the innocent people killed on the other side. Hamas and Hezbollah need to be destroyed, its as simple as that. They are terrorist groups that have broken many, many ceasefires, and peace treaties multiple times the MOMENT they had a chance to. Then when Israel responds defensively they use their propaganda and mass brainwashing to convince people that they did nothing to warrant being attacked.

Hezbollah and Hamas should be punsished, no, they should be DESTROYED so that they can't exercise their evil again.

[SouthAsian]

I'll try to explain what Israel has done to the Palestinians.

Harry represents Israel.Louis represents Palestine.Harry sits at a desk that louis has sat in for 8 months.louis sits there because he had bad eyesight and the teacher said he should sit there.Harry carelessly sits at the desk.louis complains about it but the teacher doesnt want to hear about it.So louis humilitated in front of everybody is forced to sit near some goth kids who he is deathly afraid of.After the period louis confronts Harry yelling at him.Harry looks right at him then shoves him.Louis shoves back but then quickly Harry repeatedly shoves him again and again and again.Louis is on the floor very very pissed.Harry then says to Louis he is going to take the seat permenentely because his bigger brother will forcefully subdue louis in class if he tries to fight back.

So everyday Harry sits at Louis's seat.Louis occasionaly throws spit balls at Harry so he doesnt know who spat at him. but then hides himself because he knows Harry's bigger brother will kick his ass(big brother is USA by the way).

So who is wrong?louis (palestinians) or Harry(Israel)

[Demosthenez]

At 10/26/06 03:56 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: First of all, there is no such thing as "Palestinian soil" if you want to go back into history you will realize that present-day Israel and "Palestine" were the native lands of Israelites and Judeaens, NOT ARABS, not "Palestinians".

2000 years ago isnt a legitimate claim. If you think it is you are not sane.

It doesn't really give a shit about the Palestinians them as a propaganda tool.

They Lebanese have harbored the PLO and other Palestinian organizations for decades and Hamas and Hezbollah do cooperate. Dont speak on their mindset when you dont know it, it is clumsy and bush league debating.

so they resort to deceptive propaganda wars to discredit Israel in the international arena

Israel produces enough shit propaganda on their own without any Arab help.

This lowered suicide bombing exponentially when it was implemented.

The only reason suicide bombing would have stopped is because the Intifada would have been called off. But hey, lets see a link even though I am pretty sure you wont be able to.

Then you ignore the fact that more Palestinians have been killed by Palestinians since the intifada than ISraelis have, but I'm sure they blamed it on Israel to create propaganda.

If you are suggesting Palestinians kill eachother I think you would have a tough time proving that. Last I checked they dont drop hellfires on themselves in crowded streets, that seems to be Israels prerogitive.

Israel isn't doing anything because of the past.

You are right, they are doing it for the present. Look at the conditions they are living in. They are walled up, ruled over by Israelis, and called dogs and terrorists at every turn. It doenst take a genius to figure out their chances are slim to none to succede in those conditions so they resort to desperation. They have nothing so why does it matter if they risk everything?

If Israel was as evil as Hamas and Hezbollah and had their goals, there wouldn't be one Palestinian or Lebanese Muslim left alive today.

Ahh, my favorite debating tactic. "Hey, at least we aint Hitler. Cut us some slack."

And coversely, if Hamas/Hezbollah had the military power that Israel has, there would be NO Israelis, no Christians or Jews left alive in the Holy land.

We dont know that. Power and security can change people. If Israel was destabilized and didnt recieve billions a year in both public tax funded aid and private donations and were living in semi permenant refugee camps with no economy, walled up, political leaders hunted and imprisoned, and pushed around by a superior military force, who knows. If Hamasland and Hezbollahland had power and security and some form of stability and the people didnt have to scrape to survive, why would they still be so intent on destroying people that pose no threat to them? A people (both Christian and Jew) they have lived in harmony with for a millenia? At the time Christians were slaughtering eachother and "infidels" people like Saladin and Mehmed II paved the way for the respect of other cultures we have today.

And the REALITY

Dont talk reality when you are speaking of a bunch of shit that would take intimate knowledge of the workings of the brain of people like Nasrallah. You dont have that. Dont pretend to. Like I said, bush league.

At 10/26/06 06:19 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Um Israel doesn't have to be punished because everything it has done in recent history has been done lawfully. Israel obeys the rules of war.

Thats only because the USA shoots down every UN action to hold Israel accountable for their actions. Its worthless to make a statement about something that is untestable. Its sort of like how Israel brags they have never defaulted on a US loan. Yeah, thats great except the US forgives practically all their loans or they pay it back with the billions we give them each year.

Hezbollah and Hamas should be punsished, no, they should be DESTROYED so that they can't exercise their evil again.

See, this emotional extremist reaction is exactly what keeps these groups going.

I still cant fathom how people can think violence can still destroy groups like this. The only thing violence does is perpetuate them.

At 10/25/06 11:06 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: If Hezbollah was protecting Lebanon, why did they attack Israel knowing full-well it would start a war that would take the lives of innocent Lebanese?

No no no, that is not what they knew what was going to happen but it sure as hell is what they were hoping for and the moronic, corrupt, current Israeli government played into their hands. Im not sure what the Israeli leadership hoped to gain but whatever it was they sure didnt get it and their plan exploded in their face.

Also, almost ALL of the Muslims who live in Lebanon today migrated there from Jordan, Syria, and Palestine and took over land from the Christian Lebanese. They aren't even protecting their homeland because Lebanon isn't their homeland!

Lets see a link big boy. There is also a large Druze population there also but Im sure they came from god knows where and stole land too.

Look at this picture of Hamas using children as human shields, THEN say they are innocent you dipshit:

If you are stupid enough to think that wasnt staged, well, I dont know what to say for you. There is no way that many kids would be sitting within small arms and mortars firing range that nonchalant.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/26/06 06:19 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Hezbollah and Hamas should be punsished, no, they should be DESTROYED so that they can't exercise their evil again.

I hope you know that if Hamas is destroyed the Palestinians will ultimately all die. Hamas, unlike the previous government (Fatah) is not corrupt. Hamas has spent 90% of it's funds building schools, hospitals, orphanages etc. Mainstream Hamas, not the militant sector, is a legitimate political party which aims at helping the Palestinians live a far better life.

Also, Hezbollah organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign ('Jihad al-Bina') is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.

Medical care is also cheaper in Hezbollah run than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members". Also Hezbollah's social service agencies provide health care and schooling for poor farmers.

Why even CNN said this: "Hezbollah did everything that a government should do, from collecting the garbage to running hospitals and repairing schools." In July 2006, during the war with Israel, when there was no running water in Beirut, Hezbollah was arranging supplies around the city. "People here [in South Beirut] see Hezbollah as a political movement and a social service provider as much as it is a militia, in this traditionally poor and dispossessed Shiite community."[Source from CNN.com

So, you want them to be destroyed.. Why? So that the innocent people being slaughtered by Zionism have nowhere to turn to? Sure, they are evil if you think evil helps innocent people.

[Demosthenez]

At 10/26/06 02:56 PM, neoptolemus wrote: Also, Hezbollah organizes extensive social development programs, running hospitals, news services, and educational facilities.

That doesnt justify their barbarism. You are a fool if you think just because they do some good things it gives them a free hand to do whatever they want.

So, you want them to be destroyed.. Why? So that the innocent people being slaughtered by Zionism have nowhere to turn to? Sure, they are evil if you think evil helps innocent people.

He never suggested that. I dont know what it is, the debating on this forum has degraded alot on subjects like these. Its a lot of people closing their eyes to the barbarism of the side they support and strawmaning the opposition. Almost uniformally that is what is going on.

And yes, they are fucking evil. Nasrallah is a manipulative motherfucker who, just like Bush, cares more for his agenda than he does for bodies dead and dying. His people waltzed into Israel, killed Israelis and kidnapped them all for no other reason than he wanted his party to become more relevant at a time when their purpose as a party of "resistance" was becoming increasingly less relevant. Lebanon and Fouad Siniora had nothing to do with their actions and thousands died and were misplaced in Lebanon because this fool didnt care about the consequences of his actions. And I understand why they shoot rockets into cities (because they dont have the might or technology to do otherwise) but that doesnt excuse, they are killing women, children, innocents. It is fucking barbaric and unacceptable. I dont see how any sane man could condone either action the leadership of either Hezbollah or Israel took. They were both barbarous, moronic actions.

Think about what you are supporting before you support it. Nasrallah is a monster who corrupts Islam and the teachings of the Prophet to further his own petty agenda. Do not support him.

[Begoner]

You are such a freaking hypocrite. Yet you are justifying the what Hezbollah and Hamas do for Israel taking land in the late 40s and early 50s.

No, I am talking about Israel illegally occupying land since the 70s. I justify what Hezbollah and Hamas do because Israel is still perpetrating grave injustices against the Arab people, whether it be blockading their land, destroying their houses, killing their people, or illegally controlling their land. This is something that is currently happening -- it started decades ago and it is continuing today.

Israel isn't doing anything because of the past. Israel attacks when IT IS ATTACKED. It targets terrorists, and militant groups.

Right, because the abduction of a couple of Israeli soldiers warrants the slaughter of hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians (but, of course, leaflets were dropped, so that makes everything OK, eh?).

[Begoner]

And I understand why they shoot rockets into cities (because they dont have the might or technology to do otherwise) but that doesnt excuse, they are killing women, children, innocents. It is fucking barbaric and unacceptable. I dont see how any sane man could condone either action the leadership of either Hezbollah or Israel took. They were both barbarous, moronic actions.

Of course killing innocent civilians is barbaric in any situation whatsoever. Does that mean it is necessarily the incorrect course of action to take? No. It is sometimes necessary to kill such people if such an action is required to achieve a wider goal. Was the slaughter of any civilian justified in any war? Surely not. Would it be better if some collateral damage was incurred if it was the only way to win the war? Of course. I'd rather some innocent German civilians died than have the Nazi flag fluttering over London. Similarly, I'd rather some innocent Israeli civilians die than have the Star of David waving over Palestine. As long as Israel does not comply with international law, Hamas and Hezbollah must use any means at their disposal to rectify the situation. Some dead innocent civilians is worth it if it can result in a grave injustice being resolved.

[texicomexico]

Ya know, Begoner if you had a wee bit of faith in your country, you might not hate it so much. The fact that you are glad that our troops are dying trying to put a stabile, islamic, republic in what once was the land of all great religons is not only stupid, but hurtful to all those that live there. As to the debate of this thread, If you are attacked by another country's terrorist group, then you can defend yourself. I know you are racist towards us jews, you facist.

[Demosthenez]

At 10/26/06 04:16 PM, Begoner wrote: Does that mean it is necessarily the incorrect course of action to take? No.

Twist it whatever way you want, when you kill a noncombatant for no reason it is barbaric and wrong. It is wrong.

It is sometimes necessary to kill such people if such an action is required to achieve a wider goal.

This isnt a total war. Neither side is at open war with eachother and you support suicide bombings against innocent civilians whose only "crime" is being Israeli. Terrorist organizations cannot speak for entire peoples and they dont which is why Israel is somewhat measured in their response to the Palestinian and Lebanese violence, they are responding to groups, not states. You are supporting the conflict of total war for only one side, the Arab side. Why cant Israel fight a total war? You handicap one side and encourage another? Hypocracy.

And by your own logic, you explain Israels actions. Think about that. Just do. Israel wants peace so, like you are suggesting Hamas and Hezbollah are doing, they will kill those who they think threaten peace. If a bystander gets in the way or a building needs to be leveled and people are in there, its just a price that must be paid. Your concept of justified violence can be switched around by any group in the conflict.

And what the fuck do they gain by killin Israelis? They do nothing but continue the violence and further it. They gain nothing in the process but more death and destruction, its not like they will ever take down the state of Israel this way. They keep pushing the way they are they wont even have a state of their own because Israel wont give it to them. It is pointless violence and for you as an observer to support this pointless violence is ridiculous.

[Begoner]

And by your own logic, you explain Israels actions. Think about that. Just do. Israel wants peace so, like you are suggesting Hamas and Hezbollah are doing, they will kill those who they think threaten peace. If a bystander gets in the way or a building needs to be leveled and people are in there, its just a price that must be paid. Your concept of justified violence can be switched around by any group in the conflict.

No, you cannot twist my logic like that. If Israel wants peace, they can easily negotiate for a treaty acceptable to both parties. They have, however, dragged their feet and only made half-hearted attempts at a compromise. If Israel withdrew from all the occupied territories, complied with international law and granted complete autonomy to Palestine, only then would they have the right to attack those who persist in their terrorist ways. If Israel wants peace, they can easily having it by allowing the Palestinians to have their land back and by releasing all those civilians whom have been illegally kidnapped, etc. But Isreal doesn't want peace; it wants to obstinately continue in its imperial ways. If the Palestinians cannot fight to get their land back and cannot get it back through peaceful means, what should they do? Should they allow Israel to trample all over them? Hell, no. That is the worst of two evils.

[Demosthenez]

At 10/26/06 04:43 PM, Begoner wrote: No, you cannot twist my logic like that. If Israel wants peace, they can easily negotiate for a treaty acceptable to both parties. They have, however, dragged their feet and only made half-hearted attempts at a compromise.

Like Hamas or Hezbollah or the PLO has made any significant attempts at diplomacy? Spare me. You expect everything of Israel and nothing of Hamas or Hezbollah. It doesnt work that way if you want to resolve conflict, you have to understand both sides and condemn both sides barbarism and find compromises not expect everything from one side and nothing of the other. Its fine if you are a partisan on one side but not of you want anything done.

And since when do you negotiate with terrorists or non governmental organizations? I think the answer is never. And yes, you are still a hypocrite.

That is the worst of two evils.

So the least worst evil is planting bombs with ball bearings and other shrapnel on your chest and blowing yourself up on a bus or sending a missle you know will probably land in a crowded urban area, to kill people. So the least worst evil is to frighten innocent civilians to do what you want so you can get what you want. Sounds like a plan Stalin and Hitler would enjoy carrying out.

And do you have any comment on you supporting pointless violence because that is all it is. It serves no purpose except to kill. It hastens nothing and only furthers death.