Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 10/23/06 12:44 PM, fli wrote: You're speaking to a guy who has been in the same exact situation over and over again and yet managed to always found a way to get A's and B's on group projects.

If you go off and do it on your own, yeah

Now, I think personally going to jail was stupid.
However, she should have tried to engage in working because it's her grade on the line.

I coulda swore I read in the article that they were using their native to discuss the project. Have you ever stopped to consider maybe the translator couldn't relate to the girl the finer points of their discussion, rather than, "blugga blah dirka dirka nog?"

Maybe the girl tried to give comment, a long dissertation on her thoughts of the project, and the translator summed her up in one sentence. Or vice versa.

In all your experiences in all your 25 years, have you ever been snubbed by a foreign language speaker? How did you know?

Now, if there were that many people who weren't as fluent in English, that would mean that that the majority of her class was like that. I don't think a teacher would put a bunch of non-english speaking immigrants together if there weren't a way to distribute them in such a way where they could be immersed with English speaking students.

Think again.

Not only does she fail at participation, but she also disadvantages the other group from engaging in active learning of English. And she misses out on learning some cultural value from other peoples... I mean, when I left Independence, I was fluent in other languages just because when I got in a group we would always ask, "How do you say 'fuck you' in Vietnamese? What's 'shit' in Spanish?'"

What's the value of supply and demand in a market economy? Auf deutsch, bitte. Uebersetzen Sie meinem Satz und beurteilt der. Hoer gut zu, weil Noten von diese Klasse liegt den Projekt auf.

At 10/23/06 01:41 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: In all your experiences in all your 25 years, have you ever been snubbed by a foreign language speaker? How did you know?

Never because immigrants, in my experiance, have always been to me patient and courteous. That doesn't mean I haven't gotten into a cat fight before because this guy or another were assholes outside of classrooms, but-- that's school life.

And always these experiances were edifying and nice. I got to know families and communities because we would often go to each others homes. I got to try authentic regional Indian food, Vietnamese desserts, or even to a Cambodian party.

Even if that girl failed, then at least she couldn't say because it was lack of trying. But more than likely, that teacher would have been more leniant on her group because of the extra effort the group needed to take.

Think again.

Never known a teacher who didn't try their best to distribute students equally in respects of English speakers to non-English speakers ratio.

What's the value of supply and demand in a market economy? Auf deutsch, bitte. Uebersetzen Sie meinem Satz und beurteilt der. Hoer gut zu, weil Noten von diese Klasse liegt den Projekt auf.

Now that wasn't fair, or accurate to the situation.

I seriously don't think a student will just talk long complicated sentences just like that. They speak in short and easy sentences, while using as much ability to speak English possible. (Although I picked up easily on "class" and "project" on visual cue...)

When I speak English to a Vietnamese and if they're not native speakers, I usually go with the simple noun + verb word structure, and common phrases such as, "How much is that?" And then I say, "gammon!" (Thank you in phoenetic English.) Immigrants, if they're forced in a situation where they need to speak, will try their hardest, often mixing English and their language together.

It's effort on both sides...

At 10/23/06 01:13 PM, fli wrote:

At 10/23/06 10:58 AM, Grammer wrote:

Either your America is different, or you live in some kind of gated suburbia.

Uhm duh, were white.

BTW. Watching mind of Mencia and they had Wetback Mountainon.

Though of you.

Nad you are right, it takes a considerable amount of effort to effectively communicate through a secondary language. But. It wasn't a culture-learning-moment, it was a project where a student respectively requested to be put into another group to maximize her own learning experience. Learning what the class is supposed to be teaching, and not the lingual subleties artificially imposed on her.

Lots of "could'ves" could've been done, but the action of the teacher has obviously damaged the credibility of that particular English school system. She's taught the rest of the class that if you assert your own right to learn in school, you'll be punished not only socially, but criminally as well.

I can't honestly support the criminal discipline of the student, or the social stigma that will probably linger on her record. Not for something that could have very, very easily been solved in other ways/manners.

Why force an unwilling pupil to do the teachers job anyways? Isn't it the teacher's responsibility to relate class material? Couldn't the teacher have provided the necessary degree of translation for the group?

At 10/23/06 02:31 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: BTW. Watching mind of Mencia and they had Wetback Mountainon.
Though of you.

I know...
I saw that one too... couldn't blame you. I thought about myself too...

And Mario Lopez is friggin hot.

Catch the Butt Pirates of the Carribean one... that's only one, after Wetback Mountain, that I think are truly funny on Ned's part.

Otherwise, I think Pablo Francisco is the funniest Latino comedian out there right now... not even George Lopez, mang...

At 10/23/06 01:13 PM, fli wrote:

At 10/23/06 10:58 AM, Grammer wrote: This is why I'm glad I live in America.

Oh. My. God.

Either your America is different, or you live in some kind of gated suburbia.

HOW SO? I am pretty sure we don't throw our children in jail for asking to be moved to a different study group. and we are allowed to dislike and be racists if we want, as long as it does not cause physical harm to someone. personally I think the teacher should loose her job she instigated the situation by pairing the group.

At 10/23/06 05:35 PM, troubles1 wrote:

At 10/23/06 01:13 PM, fli wrote:

At 10/23/06 10:58 AM, Grammer wrote: This is why I'm glad I live in America.

Oh. My. God.

Either your America is different, or you live in some kind of gated suburbia.

HOW SO?

No, I meant in the meeting of non-English speaking people...
Surely Jersey has quite a few non-English speaking folks. I know I have to engage with a variety of people daily.

personally I think the teacher should loose her job she instigated the situation by pairing the group.

If it's my class and if there were students who had English problems, I would not only submerge them with English speaking students, but make sure they work especially hard. That's the only way to get them to learn actively.

We can't, after all, abandon a group of students for one who acts like it's some sort of inconveniance. Who knows... she may had even scored brownie points for helping out her fellow peers.

That's bullshit. She has a problem working with them because she can't understand them, so she asks for a group change and gets sent to jail!?

The world is growing ever more stupid.

That's just ridiculous! Jail time for asking to join a different group in class? First of all, why should people be arrested for being racist. If they acted on their racism by commiting hate crimes and the such, then I can how being arrested is okay. This girl simply asked to be in a different group. Even if it was an act of racism she didn't harm anybody at all. Honestly, this is just sad to arrest her for such a minor act.

At 10/23/06 12:44 PM, fli wrote:

At 10/23/06 07:25 AM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: Turn the tables. Suppose one of the asian kids was placed in a group with all English speakers, and he asked to move to the group where there other Urdu speakers. Think he would have been chastised, arrested, or "done by the police?' Of course not. So, why then, is it so wrong for this girl to do the same thing?

You're speaking to a guy from San Jose...
You're speaking to a guy who for the past 25 years of his life has been part of the Vietnamese, Fillipino, and Mexican community, and not all the time we are as fluent in English as others.

You're speaking to a guy who has been in the same exact situation over and over again and yet managed to always found a way to get A's and B's on group projects.

Congratualations. However, you have to remember that people have different needs and methods to learning. Moreover, what were your grades like when you asked to be moved to a different group, if you ever did ask? If not, how can you claim your situation is analogous to this girl's in the UK?

Furthermore, you still failed to answer the question at hand, suppose you or one of your classmates had asked to move to another group, do you think that they should fail for lack of participation, despite the fact they were only trying to improve their understanding?

Another situation. Suppose she was placed in a group of rabblerousers, and she asked to move to another group because she couldn't get anything done with them. Should she fail, then, too?

Since when does "group participation" supercede one's commitment to learning?

Now, I think personally going to jail was stupid.
However, she should have tried to engage in working because it's her grade on the line.

She tried to engage in working. If she didn't want to participate, she would have just sat in the group doing nothing while the Urdu speakers did the work. The fact that she wanted to move to another group shows that she wanted to participate--in the course work. She may not have wanted to participate in translating Urdu or learning other cultures, nor should she have—grading for participation should be for participation in cirricular work, not on how well they can teach English or extract information from a language they don't speak.

Now, if there were that many people who weren't as fluent in English, that would mean that that the majority of her class was like that. I don't think a teacher would put a bunch of non-english speaking immigrants together if there weren't a way to distribute them in such a way where they could be immersed with English speaking students.

That's not true at all. Look at ESOL classes. And how do you know that the students hadn't already chosen their own groups the day before, and the teacher just put her into this one when she came back?

That's how it was for me for most of my academic life.
Not only does she fail at participation, but she also disadvantages the other group from engaging in active learning of English.

It's the teacher's job, not another student's, to teach students English. It's the school's "F", not hers. It might be different if she was receiving credit for tutoring, for example, but a science class should be for learning about science, not for teaching English.

And she misses out on learning some cultural value from other peoples... I mean, when I left Independence, I was fluent in other languages just because when I got in a group we would always ask, "How do you say 'fuck you' in Vietnamese? What's 'shit' in Spanish?'"

Again, it's a science class. Not a sociology class.

At 10/23/06 10:19 PM, IllustriousPotentate wrote: Furthermore, you still failed to answer the question at hand, suppose you or one of your classmates had asked to move to another group, do you think that they should fail for lack of participation, despite the fact they were only trying to improve their understanding?

It all depends. If the situation was like hers... then of course there is a lack of participation. There was at least one fully fluent person. For her, it was a matter of convenience... and that's not the real world.

Another situation. Suppose she was placed in a group of rabblerousers, and she asked to move to another group because she couldn't get anything done with them. Should she fail, then, too?

Of course the teacher is the one who calls the shots. If that teacher sees or is informed that one student is doing all the work and the other is doing nothing, they will fix the problem depending on the situation. If another student just refuses to cooporate, than that's a good reason to get another partner.

Since when does "group participation" supercede one's commitment to learning?

And group participation is part to the commitment of learning.
You can't say she's commited to learning if she didn't want to work with people who didn't speak fluent English.

She tried to engage in working. If she didn't want to participate, she would have just sat in the group doing nothing while the Urdu speakers did the work. The fact that she wanted to move to another group shows that she wanted to participate--in the course work. She may not have wanted to participate in translating Urdu or learning other cultures, nor should she have—grading for participation should be for participation in cirricular work, not on how well they can teach English or extract information from a language they don't speak.

More than likely if there were that many non-English speaking people in her group, than we may assume that's how the whole classroom maybe.

What choice would that girl get then?
You can't concentrate all the English speakers in an English only group, and concentrate the others. It would benefit one side, and not the other. And then where's the commitment to learning?

There wouldn't be any.

That's not true at all. Look at ESOL classes. And how do you know that the students hadn't already chosen their own groups the day before, and the teacher just put her into this one when she came back?

That maybe one situation.
Could be as easily true as a teacher trying to find a fair distribution ratio of English and non-English.

It's the teacher's job, not another student's, to teach students English. It's the school's "F", not hers. It might be different if she was receiving credit for tutoring, for example, but a science class should be for learning about science, not for teaching English.

A student learns languages from using it... not studying on a blackboard only (although it becomes necessary.)

A school would truly get and deserve an F if they discouraged a foreign language speaker from doing the normal tasks of normal school children. If they sheltered them to form their own groups, they will fail at the assignment at hand and the ability to acquire the language.

Again, it's a science class. Not a sociology class.

It boils down to this:
How would the other students learn science... if the teachers treated them differently by putting them in a group only comprised of their people? They would neither learn Science nor English.

She on the other hand had at least one person with whom she could work with in her language.

More bullshit on a grand scale. Seriously, do they think that this is going to make this girl more respectful to people of other cultures? FUCK NO. It's going to make her resent them even more. Just like all the bullshit actions "against racism" do. The more the governments of the world try to fix racism, they're just making it worse. Mark my words, because they are the undeniable truth: If you just ignore racism, it WILL go away.

At 10/24/06 02:04 AM, fli wrote: It all depends.

On what?

If the situation was like hers... then of course there is a lack of participation. There was at least one fully fluent person.

Again, what's the point of being in a group if you can only communicate with one person in the group? Moreover, I see nothing in the article where the other students made any attempt to communicate with her.

For her, it was a matter of convenience... and that's not the real world.

Of course it's the real world. If it wasn't, then immigrants have wouldn't go to the lengths to do to learn English. What do you see more in the real world, people complaining about having to press 1 for English, or people going out associating with minorities for the purpose of learning about their language?

Of course the teacher is the one who calls the shots. If that teacher sees or is informed that one student is doing all the work and the other is doing nothing, they will fix the problem depending on the situation. If another student just refuses to cooporate, than that's a good reason to get another partner.

Okay, then why didn't the one that spoke English try to include the girl in the conversation, by offering to translate? That doesn't show "group participation."

And group participation is part to the commitment of learning.
You can't say she's commited to learning if she didn't want to work with people who didn't speak fluent English.

How do you know that she doesn't? Perhaps, unlike you, she realized that there is an appropriate time and place to learn about other cultures and other languages, and science class is not one of those, especially when she is already one day behind the rest of the class. If you're one day behind, you need to do all you can to complete the project at hand; there really isn't time to spare trying to learn a few words of another language.

She tried to engage in working. If she didn't want to participate, she would have just sat in the group doing nothing while the Urdu speakers did the work. The fact that she wanted to move to another group shows that she wanted to participate--in the course work. She may not have wanted to participate in translating Urdu or learning other cultures, nor should she have—grading for participation should be for participation in cirricular work, not on how well they can teach English or extract information from a language they don't speak.

More than likely if there were that many non-English speaking people in her group, than we may assume that's how the whole classroom maybe.

No, there's no grounds for that assumption, nor is it valid:

"Fewer than two per cent of pupils at Harrop Fold come from an ethnic minority. "
I find it very unlikely that the whole class save a few were minorities. And if it was, then the class was improperly created--there shouldn't be enough minorities in a classroom to warrant groups consisting mostly of minorities if the minority population is less than 2%.

What choice would that girl get then?
You can't concentrate all the English speakers in an English only group, and concentrate the others. It would benefit one side, and not the other. And then where's the commitment to learning?

There wouldn't be any.

Okay, then why were the Urdu students already concentrated into a group? All of the students in that study group were Urdu when she was placed in there. If there's no commitment to learning in concentrating minorities, then why were they concentrated in the first place?

Could be as easily true as a teacher trying to find a fair distribution ratio of English and non-English.

Again, if that's the case, there should have already been at least a couple of English speaking students in the group.

A student learns languages from using it... not studying on a blackboard only (although it becomes necessary.)

A school would truly get and deserve an F if they discouraged a foreign language speaker from doing the normal tasks of normal school children. If they sheltered them to form their own groups, they will fail at the assignment at hand and the ability to acquire the language.

But it should not be another student's obligation to provide that learning, nor should they be graded on it. There should be study and tutor groups solely for that purpose in a good education system, instead of trying to pigeonhole it into unrelated classes whenever there is an opportunity—and if there isn't such study or tutor groups, then the school should be held accountable, not the students forced to act as impromptu tutors.

Again, it's a science class. Not a sociology class.

It boils down to this:
How would the other students learn science... if the teachers treated them differently by putting them in a group only comprised of their people?

Apparently, they would have learned it just fine, that's exactly the teacher had done. The Urdu students were already in a group by themselves. With the minority population of the school at less than 2%, there should have been at least a couple of English speaking students in the group already.

They would neither learn Science nor English.

Why wouldn't they? Why should she have to teach them English? Why couldn't the one student that spoke English teach them? After all, to quote you verbatim:

there is a lack of participation. There was at least one fully fluent person.

Wouldn't it be easier for someone who is bilingual in language A and language B to teach someone who speaks A how to speak B, instead of someone who speaks only B?

One has to have basic communication skills in a language before they can learn English from conversation. That's how foreign languages are taught in schools; basic classes are taught in English; the dialog in advanced classes is usually excusively the foreign language being taught.

If the other students had spoken some English, or the girl spoke some Urdu, the your point about participation might have been relevant.

As it stands now, though, you're advocating punishing this girl for attempting to move to a group where she could learn the relevant cirriculum much more quickly and efficiently, rather than attempting to improperly teach or learn another language in a science group that was never conducive to education or participation to begin with.

If that isn't absurd, I don't know what is.

What about speaking Scotishey English. Its like speaking proper English just with ya bastard on the end.

At 10/24/06 09:49 AM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/23/06 11:50 AM, TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID wrote:

At 10/23/06 10:58 AM, Grammer wrote: This is why I'm glad I live in America.

I guess it's even worse in the US.

In America we can say pretty much anything we want short of treason and threatening the president's life.

Ah but you can't say the president must die.. I can because i live in England.. In fact i can also say BOMB TEN DOWNING STREET

At 10/24/06 03:52 PM, neoptolemus wrote: Ah but you can't say the president must die.. I can because i live in England.. In fact i can also say BOMB TEN DOWNING STREET

You can? I thought they arrested people for that sort of thing nowadays?

At 10/24/06 04:02 PM, ClottedCreamFudge wrote:

At 10/24/06 03:52 PM, neoptolemus wrote: Ah but you can't say the president must die.. I can because i live in England.. In fact i can also say BOMB TEN DOWNING STREET

You can? I thought they arrested people for that sort of thing nowadays?

Well, even if they do i'll tell you all about it and how the charges were dropped.. Gotta love the European convention on human rights.

At 10/24/06 04:09 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
Well, even if they do i'll tell you all about it and how the charges were dropped.. Gotta love the European convention on human rights.

Thats not fair. Why must a building go down becuase it holds an arsehole?

At 10/24/06 04:13 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote:

At 10/24/06 04:09 PM, neoptolemus wrote:
Well, even if they do i'll tell you all about it and how the charges were dropped.. Gotta love the European convention on human rights.

Thats not fair. Why must a building go down becuase it holds an arsehole?

I'm not saying i'm going to attack a building or anyone.. While i may not agree with my country's government that doesn't mean i'll do anything except peaceful protests.

All i was saying was that i can say things as, afterall, "If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" and seeing as i do have freedom of speech and expression if i get tried as a terrorist under the terrorism act of 2006 ultimately i was just excercising my rights.

At 10/24/06 01:00 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote: What about speaking Scotishey English. Its like speaking proper English just with ya bastard on the end.

No, in fact, "Scotishey" english sounds as bad as cockney, in my opinion.

At 10/24/06 04:23 PM, BanditByte wrote:

At 10/24/06 01:00 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote: What about speaking Scotishey English. Its like speaking proper English just with ya bastard on the end.

No, in fact, "Scotishey" english sounds as bad as cockney, in my opinion.

no it isnt you bastard.

I think cockney os much worse than scotish-whatever....ya bastard.

And with my accent you can say this

al kic yeur wee cunt in ya fuckin litle twat........ya bastard, LOL

You ever see what an englishmen does after you say that? he back off thats what he does ya bastard.

im laughing on the inside

I have to disagree with you, fli. Getting a grade deduction on the basis of not knowing another language is pretty heinous. I'm not standing up for this chick's character, but rather her right to study in a group where she'll get the most benifit out of it. If she wants to learn another language there's better environments to do so other than a study group where the main idea is communication.

Is it important to learn about other cultures, launguages, and heritiges? Aboslutely. But telling a student they'll get an F because they won't work in a study group with students that don't speak the language is an atrocious punishment. If she wants to be a xeno-phobic ditz, or just plain study with a group that speaks her language, she should be able to.

At least we can all agree that getting legal about an issue like this is a waste of time and common sense.

Hell, just to stir up the contraversy, I would give the girl an extra 20% added to her grade as extra credit for having the guts to say something. Anytime I have to listen to gibbley gap(foreign language that I definetly do not understand), I get up and leave. I sure as hell would not waste my time, and an idiot that thinks she should be arrested for it, send to rehab for some stupid reason, or any of that other crap is a damned fool.

well that's stupid.

"ok now, what page is question seven on?

"yong yo zen"

"what?"

"yong yo zen!"

"i cant understand you"

"YONG YO ZEN!"

failed the assignemt because communication was immposible

common sence, obviously that school's staff lacks that.

I would like to make a few points of the mentatlity of these posters.

1. Shes a chav, she deserves it. So your 100% sure after seeing one picture? And if she is: 0h no, she has a different lifestyle to you! You cant assume shes violent of ONE FUCKING PICTURE!
This is aslo avoidin the point on how fucking stupid english law is getting.

2. She shouldn't of cooperated, why should she fail because some asians didn't understand English (or Engrish) it's not fair, why shouldn't they fail for not trying to understand her, or the language of the country they actually live in??

Though I don't think the girl should have gotten in trouble for that. I do think she looks like a snotty little wench. She just looks like someone who would make a racist comment, and in the picture she looks like shes plotting some sort of evil, malicious deed.

well, i would ask if i didn't speak their lanuage. if she knew their lanuage, she deserved it. now then, if this happens to someone who can't speak their partenrs lanuage, that would be stupid.

I speak english so im racist? I hate white people! lol

I guess it was only a matter of time before something as stupid as this happened.
Now im not racist. We're all humans, why differentiate to a level where one group tries to portray another as less than so. But it has to be said Britain is now a country where the minorites have the power. Ill respect almost any religion you can name (except scientology) but just as an example, think of the young Islamic women who refuse to take off their full length veils / robes in schools. Does anyone remember the case that got as far as the European Courts to fight for "human rights"?
The point of a uniform is to keep children equal at a time in thir life where image and the culture of "one-upsmanship" is king. By keeping them equal, this factor is reduced if not eliminated, and most kids can have their human right to an education.
The basic upshot of this rant is that just because you are a minority, doesnt mean you are discriminated against. You are in a different culture. You have to adapt to that. Britain is a predominately white country, and predominately western. Thus should define the appropriate behaviour. Adaptation is not discrimination.