Gun control sub rant.

[Pantomime-Horse]

This is originally from March 6 2000, FDA's post about the gun shots inspired me to bring it back.

Gun control & other things.

These are the to 6 developed, non-warring, countries for shooting murders & their average yearly death toll, 1 being highest, 6 being lowest.

1)United States, 44,000 gun murders a year

2)Switzerland, 100 gun murders a year

3)Germany, 67 gun murders a year

4)Sweden, 58 gun murders a year

5)UK, 56 gun murders a year

6)Australia, 34 gun murders a year.

See the difference between the top & the second, & American government insist that their gun laws are just dandy.
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Spiderman Responded with: Yep, It's a shitty place to live alright...I did a speech on gun control recently, & in 1996, Handguns alone were used to murder 9,390 people in the US, which is more than 25 tims the amount of handgun murders in New Zealand, Japan, Great Britain, Canada & Germany Combined.
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Note: That case of a 6 year old child shooting another backs this up well.
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Note: Yet Another mass shooting.
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Krypton Dog responded with: The worst part is that like drugs, even if the government enforces more gun laws, the people that want to kill something will just get them illegaly. It's almost as ridiculous as events where you can voluntarily turn your gun in. The only people that would think of turning in their guns are probably the ones most responsible (of course, I can't be sure about that).
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Q responded with: People kill people. It does not matter if it be a gun or a hacksaw. A gun is the easiest weapon to use effectively. No matter how strict the law, people will always find ways around it. It's too bad that the youth of America have been shooting eachother in schools, but I feel that the parents have neglected their children to a certain extent. Not to bestow all blame on the parents, but they should take the brunt of it. My parents raised me to be around guns & have I shot anyone? No. I know how dangerous a weapon like that is. Now, I own a firearm & it stays in my closet. Guns are not too bad, it's people that are careless.
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Mr.Bean responded but unfortunately that section of the page was damaged.
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Angry Wes responded with: I very much liked what was said. I understand that there are alot of guns & people that will harm others in America with them. The laws are not strict enough, but look who is the prez of the NRA. Charleton Heston influences alot of older people to vote, that & the thing is that no one in the 18-24 age group votes enough. We are the second highest age population in America & we don't do anything.
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Spiderman responded with: Kinda ironic that the President of the NRA depicted Moses in a bible movie.
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[P-Chan]

I personally am in favor of *some* form of gun regulation.

That's all I'll say for now.

This is a particularly volatile subject. I remember this issue coming up before and all I can say is that people having some VERY strong opinons on this issue.

[Pantomime-Horse]

I'll get in alot of shit for this but America has got it's own constitution wrong, the genuine Constitution doesn't Say "you have the right to bare arms", that was the result of someone interperating it how they wanted & not how it was & it spread from there, if you go to the museum & view the genuine American constitution you will find that it actually says "You have the right to bare arms in an organized Militia", What is meant by organised militia is that should America get invaded then the citizens may take up weapons to & form groups in order to defend their neighbourhood, but by definition you aren't meant to have the right to arms at any other time.

[nafs]

Sweden at the 4'th place.... I'm proud!! Go Sweden go!!! We'll kick Americas ass in a few years!!! (In the gun-kills statistics)

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No i'm not proud of that... that's sick.... But I have an idea to lower the statistics....

If the state gives away free knives then people will use knives to kill people instead of guns!!!

[ToonHole]

At 3/6/01 07:49 AM, Pantomime_Horse wrote:

I'll get in alot of shit for this but America has got it's own constitution wrong, the genuine Constitution doesn't Say "you have the right to bare arms", that was the result of someone interperating it how they wanted & not how it was & it spread from there, if you go to the museum & view the genuine American constitution you will find that it actually says "You have the right to bare arms in an organized Militia", What is meant by organised militia is that should America get invaded then the citizens may take up weapons to & form groups in order to defend their neighbourhood, but by definition you aren't meant to have the right to arms at any other time.

how right you are. often the interpretation is corrupt, and that's the only fault i see in the constitution.

[ausmus]

No i'm not proud of that... that's sick.... But I have an idea to lower the statistics....

If the state gives away free knives then people will use knives to kill people instead of guns!!!

God dammit man u are a fucking retard, the object is to stop wiolence all together, when you die tell them to remember to bury you ass up so I have a place to park my Harley.

[CaptainBob]

Gun control, specifically handguns, would solve a hell of a lot of problems. And Pantomine_Horse is damn right about all these idiots misinterpating the Second Amendment. It only pertains to a millita, the point being so a state could raise and army if necassary, say if the British attacked again (This was the late 1700s). I've tried to explain this fact many times, but I often end up getting called a "liberal" which seems to be a great insult for some people. If the incident in California doesn't demonstrate this, i don't know what does. But the fact remains that this kind of change probaly won't happen, thanks to the nazi NRA, who always like to skewer the Second Amendment. The Supreme Court has NEVER struck down a gun control law on the basis of the Second Amendment.

[WadeFulp]

1)United States, 44,000 gun murders a year

2)Switzerland, 100 gun murders a year

Well, that's not very relevant. The United Sates has a population of 280 million or more, and Switzerland has only 7 million people. You're not comparing apples and oranges here. Also the US probably has much denser populated areas, in which lives people with a much lower quality of life, who have drug and alcohol problems. So you are going to see a higher crime rate here, will will increase the murder rate. If we had everyone turn in their guns, we'd probably go the way Australia did. All the honest people turn their guns over, but the criminals keep them. So now anyone with a gun, doesn't have to worry about someone else having one (unless they are going after another criminal). So now if someone wants to break in your home, they could have a gun, and you are their bitch, because since you are a honest law abiding citizen, you have no way to defend yourself.

Here are the 12 month results from Australia, who had everyone turn in their guns:

-Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%

So that means in the US instead of 44,000 we'd have around 58,000 homicides a year, that's real fucking good huh?

-Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%

-Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
Lovely! Now ever store owner, and home owner, can count on being held at gun point from non-fearing criminals with guns!

-In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Ooops, should have left things alone.

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)

-There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly

-At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm"
From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia had averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.

-The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions

-The membership of the Australian Sports Shooting Association has risen to 112,000, a 200% increase, in response to the ban and as an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected.

-Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".

Taking away guns is not the answer! You can't wave a f ucking magic wand and take away guns. They have to be collected, and turned in, and we know that's impossible! How the fuck can we make sure every last gun is off the streets? We CAN NOT! They tried it in Australia and it failed horribly! We need better education and tougher enforcement.

[Perdix]

I love you Wade.

[Pantomime-Horse]

At 3/6/01 02:48 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

1)United States, 44,000 gun murders a year

2)Switzerland, 100 gun murders a year

It should actually be pointed out that In Switzerland it is compulsory for every male adult to own a self loading Rifle, Switzerland has no millitary, they rely on a Citizen's Millitia.

Well, that's not very relevant. The United Sates has a population of 280 million or more, and Switzerland has only 7 million people. You're not comparing apples and oranges here. Also the US probably has much denser populated areas, in which lives people with a much lower quality of life, who have drug and alcohol problems.

German Population= 82,141,000
Swedish Population= 8,866,000
Swiss Population= 7,142,000
Australian Population= 19,000,000
UK Population= 59,750,000

That's a total of 176,899,000, that's more than half of the US Population yet all their firearm murders combined = only 315, Nothing compared to 44,000, If you include the NRA's Made Up stats on Australia that'll bring it up to 381, still not a shadow of 44,000
America's population is 275,600,000

Here are the 12 month results from Australia, who had everyone turn in their guns:

-Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%

-Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%

-Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
Lovely! Now ever store owner, and home owner, can count on being held at gun point from non-fearing criminals with guns!

-In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Ooops, should have left things alone.

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)

-There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly

-At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm"
From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia had averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.

-The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions

-The membership of the Australian Sports Shooting Association has risen to 112,000, a 200% increase, in response to the ban and as an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected.

-Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".

Perhaps you can name these Polititions, show you've done some research of your own.

They tried it in Australia and it failed horribly! We need better education and tougher enforcement.

C'mon, I thought you'd know better than to believe the Ramblings of the American NRA without checking up, If you actually stop & think of the NRA's "made up" statistics about Australia instead of just swallowing them you'de realise they don't even make any sense, I say "Made up" statistics because that's exactly what they were, that's why they were forced off the air.

Here's a legitimate article for you:

Australia reports lowest number of homicides in nine years
Last year Australia recorded the lowest number of homicides since the Australian Institute of Criminology began the National Homicide Monitoring Program in 1989.

Preliminary analysis from the Australian Institute of Criminology for 1997/98 indicates that there were 297 homicide incidents and 311 homicide victims.

In approximately 80 per cent of all homicide incidents the victim and the offender were known to each other. Homicides involving intimate partners comprised 23 per cent of all homicides last year.

"These are the first findings from the latest collection by our Homicide Monitoring program. Given the high proportion of homicides which are family-related or where the victim and assailant were known to each other, it appears that violence is used too often to solve emotional issues", said AIC Director, Dr Adam Graycar.

"The policy thrust to address such issues needs to be in terms of broad-based violence prevention and violence management.

"The full figures will be released, and these issues discussed, at our 3rd National Outlook Symposium on Crime in Australia on 22-23 March in Canberra", Dr Graycar said.

Rates of victimisation from 1 July 1989 - 30 June 1998 have remained quite stable, fluctuating between 1.7 and 2.0 per 100 000 population, with 1996/97 and 1997/98 recording the lowest victimisation rate of 1.7 per 100 000 population.

The proportion of male to female victims (approx 2:1) has also remained relatively constant.

Homicide incidents in Victoria have nearly halved since monitoring began in 1989/90 from 79 to 44.

The Northern Territory victimisation rate decreased by more than half from 12.4 per 100 000 population in 1995/96 to 5.3 in 1997/98.

During 1997/98, most homicides (36 per cent) occurred in NSW followed by Queensland, where one quarter of all homicides occurred.

Recorded homicides in Australia average approx one per day.

Australia's overall homicide rate has remained relatively steady over the past 25 years.

On an international level, Australia's homicide rate in 1997/8 was:
twice the rate in Japan;
slightly higher than the rate in England & Wales and Germany;
similar to the rate in Canada and NZ; and
almost a quarter of the rate in the United States.

Plenty of legitimate, independant factural information can be found here:

http://www.students.trinity.wa.edu.au/library/issues/gun.htm

Obviousley not everyone is going to surrender guns but tougher gun inforcement will pay off in a generation(30 year cycle) or so, America's gun laws should never have been so ridiculouse in the first place, Many of the weapons on open sale in the US were never legal in most other developed nations.

[thisisnotmike]

PH, I don't think you will realize what will happen if you take away American's guns.

Have you ever met a redneck? I consider my brother a redneck, mostly becuase he's a bigger gun nut than Solidus. He thinks that the government is going to drop a bomb on his house if he doesn't give up his gun.

He tends to be a smart redneck. Compared to other rednecks of course. Now if you look at the amount of rednecks in America, and you try to take away their guns, they'd probably try to overthrow the government or something.

The sad thing is, I didn't just make that up, but I did laugh at him when he told me his theories. The truth is, you'll never be able to take away America's guns, no matter who you are, becuase they just won't give them up.

[Pantomime-Horse]

At 3/7/01 12:07 AM, thisisnotmike wrote: PH, I don't think you will realize what will happen if you take away American's guns.

Have you ever met a redneck? I consider my brother a redneck, mostly becuase he's a bigger gun nut than Solidus. He thinks that the government is going to drop a bomb on his house if he doesn't give up his gun.

He tends to be a smart redneck. Compared to other rednecks of course. Now if you look at the amount of rednecks in America, and you try to take away their guns, they'd probably try to overthrow the government or something.

The sad thing is, I didn't just make that up, but I did laugh at him when he told me his theories. The truth is, you'll never be able to take away America's guns, no matter who you are, becuase they just won't give them up.

Even if you don't make them give there guns back, just to stop importing & selling these weapons will be enough to greatly improve things within 30-60 years.

[shorbe]

Pantomime: I think you're missing a lot of points here.

Firstly, I don't know the statistics, but to a certain degree, they are irrelevant, since, the USA is a unique country, with a distinctly unique history, culture, political, economic, social, and geographical climate.

To compare the USA with Australia, or any European nation is absurd in this respect.

It's not enough to simply say that the problem will correct itself within a generation if guns are made illegal. Firstly, too bad for all those around until then. Secondly, yes, criminals will continue to have guns. Saying they will stop being made or imported is absurd.

I suppose if we close our eyes, and wish really hard, illegal immigration and drug importation won't happen. Afterall, we'll just stop importing or manufacturing either those too.

The point is, that certain people will give up their guns. Others won't. Some may even continue getting more guns. Your whole argument hinges on the belief that we know where all the guns are, and can rigidly control the flow of all firearms.

As such, idealists such as Libertarians aside, who do you think is most likely NOT to give up their guns? Would criminals be a likely answer? Furthermore, do you think those criminals bought their guns through the legal channels? So how will we find their guns?

Of course, all of this ignores the fact that Americans have had guns for well over two hundred years. All of a sudden though, guns are a problem? Even if there is a problem (which I doubt there is, and I think it's over-sensationalised by the media), aren't problems indicative of what's wrong with a society?

The problem rests with people.

Cars kill people. I am sure America is probably at the top of that list also, but you don't see people trying to ban cars. Even aside from population sizes, I am sure Americans have more cars, rely on them more, and drive them more, than say, Europeans, who have more public transport. Yet, by sheer statistics, and your method, cars should be banned.

You spoke about the misinterpretation of the constitution. I think you were the one who misinterpreted it.

How many men make a militia, and from what exactly does a militia defend? I would have thought any man defending his family, friends, or colleagues from a single agressor to be a man under siege, just as one thousand men defending their familes, friends, and colleagues from one thousand aggressors would also be men under siege.

The constitution does not say you need x number of men to have a militia, nor does it start qualifying aggressors.

Furthermore, you miss a very large point. The greatest thing the populace must defend itself from is an unrepresentative, tyrannical government. That was the whole reason for including that in the constitution.

To many, this describes Washington DC, and all contained within its confines.

Many consider that a redneck, extremist point of view. Consider though, that the US government has several secret organisations designed specifically for spying upon its own populace.

The recent events at the Superbowl should ring loud alarm bells for the general populace concerning their own civil liberties.

It may be paranoia, but viewed in a wider context, de-arming the citizenry is only one arm of a wholistic approach to control the populace. This includes the dumbing down of society with a conscriptive, ineffective educational system, mind-numbing consumer indoctrination and escapism through the mass media, the economic bondage of compulsory membership to social regimes such as social security and the health system, as well as a repressive tax system, and finally, the blindfold-gag approach of censorship.

Destroying the ability of people to defend themselves physically is only the final insult by those who already try to do destroy the spiritual, intellectual, and economic capabilities, growth, and resistance of the populace.

shorbe

[WadeFulp]

I found this article. Just go on google and search for "Australia gun ban" and you'll find all kinds of articles. This one seems to be pretty legit, and does tell some different stats that the supposed NRA Made up stats. However, it shows a good example that if guns aren't as available, people will resort to knives and other weapons, and the results can be worse, than if they had guns ( as robbers tend to actually use the knives, more than they would use a gun). CHeck this link:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~confiles/ipareview.html

Interesting reading.

[Perdix]

I love you too shorbe.

[Pantomime-Horse]

Of course, all of this ignores the fact that Americans have had guns for well over two hundred years. All of a sudden though, guns are a problem? Even if there is a problem (which I doubt there is, and I think it's over-sensationalised by the media), aren't problems indicative of what's wrong with a society?

I no there's no quick fix, how can there be a quick fix for 200+years of mistakes, but alot of opponants of some kind of gun reform seem to only be interested in a quick fix.

[Pantomime-Horse]

At 3/7/01 10:59 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I found this article. Just go on google and search for "Australia gun ban" and you'll find all kinds of articles. This one seems to be pretty legit, and does tell some different stats that the supposed NRA Made up stats. However, it shows a good example that if guns aren't as available, people will resort to knives and other weapons, and the results can be worse, than if they had guns ( as robbers tend to actually use the knives, more than they would use a gun). CHeck this link:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~confiles/ipareview.html

Interesting reading.

I found that one too, problem is that that's our gun lobby, there's quite a few "Independant" articles that give a nice ballence.

[WadeFulp]

At 3/7/01 07:24 PM, Pantomime_Horse wrote:

Wait a sec, you're from Australia aren't you? :) The who point of being an American is having freedom (Patriotic humming), and being able to protect your freedom. I think we have lost a lot of our freedoms. Our government is becoming more and more socialistic. We need some serious government down sizing. If they take our guns are way, then we will have no way to protect our freedom, and we will be the government's bitches! People may think that's silly, but a lot of people suffered and died to make sure we had those freedoms, and if they think we should go and change what they fought for, then they can go FUCK THEMSELVES, and so can anyone else who thinks other wise. If you live in America and you want to change our constitution, and change what our ancestors fought for, read my lips "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU, YOU COMMUNIST COCK SUCKING PIG FUCKER!" If you people don't appreciate what our ancestors fought for, and don't care about the ideals our country was founded on, then GET THE FUCK OUT! Go move to Europe or something, I'm sure you'll find someone to take care of your needy socialist ass over there!

[PlzDeleteThisAccount]

At 3/6/01 02:48 PM, WadeFulp wrote:

1)United States, 44,000 gun murders a year

2)Switzerland, 100 gun murders a year

Well, that's not very relevant. The United Sates has a population of 280 million or more, and Switzerland has only 7 million people. You're not comparing apples and oranges here. Also the US probably has much denser populated areas, in which lives people with a much lower quality of life, who have drug and alcohol problems. So you are going to see a higher crime rate here, will will increase the murder rate. If we had everyone turn in their guns, we'd probably go the way Australia did. All the honest people turn their guns over, but the criminals keep them. So now anyone with a gun, doesn't have to worry about someone else having one (unless they are going after another criminal). So now if someone wants to break in your home, they could have a gun, and you are their bitch, because since you are a honest law abiding citizen, you have no way to defend yourself.

Here are the 12 month results from Australia, who had everyone turn in their guns:

-Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%

So that means in the US instead of 44,000 we'd have around 58,000 homicides a year, that's real fucking good huh?

-Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%

-Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44% (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
Lovely! Now ever store owner, and home owner, can count on being held at gun point from non-fearing criminals with guns!

-In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Ooops, should have left things alone.

-Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)

-There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly

-At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm"
From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia had averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.

-The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions

-The membership of the Australian Sports Shooting Association has risen to 112,000, a 200% increase, in response to the ban and as an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected.

-Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".


Taking away guns is not the answer! You can't wave a f ucking magic wand and take away guns. They have to be collected, and turned in, and we know that's impossible! How the fuck can we make sure every last gun is off the streets? We CAN NOT! They tried it in Australia and it failed horribly! We need better education and tougher enforcement.

YEAH!

[shorbe]

At 3/7/01 07:21 PM, Pantomime_Horse wrote:

Of course, all of this ignores the fact that Americans have had guns for well over two hundred years. All of a sudden though, guns are a problem? Even if there is a problem (which I doubt there is, and I think it's over-sensationalised by the media), aren't problems indicative of what's wrong with a society?

I no there's no quick fix, how can there be a quick fix for 200+years of mistakes, but alot of opponants of some kind of gun reform seem to only be interested in a quick fix.

That's just the point though. It's not 200+ years of mistakes. It's only become such a problem recently, and I would sy 95% of that is due to the media.

Guns are part of America's culture, and history. They've never been a part of Australia, really, for several reasons. Geographically, we're an island, so we've never really had to worry about war. Indeed, all the wars in which we've fought, have been for others. Furthermore, and perhaps because of this, Australia was founded by federation, not a war of independence, or a revolution. In addition, the populace is pretty apathetic, and the politicians are pretty damned pathetic. We don't have Illuminati, or other weirdos pulling their stunts on us. The scourge of political correctness and affirmative action aside, we don't have to get concerned about many things. Basically, so long as everyone has their beer and football, they're happy.

shorbe

[BrooklynBrett]

By John Hay Rabb

Here's a pop quiz for you: Which country in the world has the highest murder rate? If you said the United States, you would be wrong, but your error would certainly be excusable. The incessant drumbeat from the mainstream media and anti-gun groups serves to perpetuate the canard that the U.S. is the bloodiest free-fire zone on earth. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In his article "America: The Most Violent Nation?" researcher David C. Stolinsky shows conclusively that there are a number of countries with higher murder rates than the U.S. This information comes from the United Nations report "The 1996 Demographic Yearbook." The report lists the murder rates in some 86 countries. There are more than 200 countries in the world, and more than 100 did not provide murder-rate data to the U.N. Even so, the Yearbook opens a fascinating window on the failure of gun-control laws around the world.

The connection between murder rates and gun control is quite clear. The vast majority of murders are committed with firearms. Therefore, it is possible to determine if there is any sort of correlation between gun laws and murder rates in selected countries.

Gun laws, like all laws, should be evaluated to determine if they meet accepted measures of success. Gun-control advocates contend that gun laws reduce murders as well as other gun crimes. An examination of this proposition shows conclusively that gun laws fail to reduce murder rates in many countries. Therefore, they fail to meet the fundamental measure of success and should be amended or repealed.

A 1997 Justice Department report on murders in the U.S. shows that our country has a murder rate of seven victims per 100,000 population per year. There are a number of well-known examples of countries with more liberal gun laws and lower murder rates than the U.S. One is Finland, with a murder rate of 2.9. Israel is another example; although its population is heavily armed, Israel's murder rate is only 1.4. In Switzerland, gun ownership is a way of life. Its murder rate is 2.7.

By contrast, consider Brazil. All firearms in Brazil must be registered with the government. This registration process can take anywhere from 30 days to three months. All civilian handguns are limited in caliber to no more than 9mm. All rifles must fire handgun ammunition only. Brazilians may only buy one gun per year. At any one time, they may only have in their possession a maximum of six guns: two handguns, two rifles and two shotguns. To transport their guns, citizens must obtain a special police permit. CCW permits are available but are rarely issued.

Therefore, it should not be a revelation to anyone that Brazil has a thriving black market in guns. Virtually any type of gun is available, for a price. Incidentally, Brazil's murder rate is 19 victims per 100,000 population per year.

In Cuba, Fidel Castro controls every aspect of life with an iron hand, including gun ownership. Castro remembers well how he and his rag-tag armed Communist rebels overthrew the government of Fulgencio Batista and set up a Communist dictatorship. An armed populace is threatening to a repressive government. Still, somebody in Cuba is obtaining guns and using them to murder fellow citizens. Cuba's murder rate is 7.8.

The former Soviet state of Lithuania is now an independent democratic country. But it still retains some vestiges of Stalinism. Lithuania's citizens must obtain a police permit to buy a gun. All guns are registered with the government. Somehow these restrictions are not deterring the criminal element; Lithuania has an unenviable murder rate of 11.7.

Gun control in Mexico is a fascinating case study. Mexican gun laws are simply draconian. No civilian may own a gun larger than .22 caliber, and a permit is required to buy one. All guns in Mexico are registered with the Ministry Of Defense. Guns may not be carried in public, either openly or concealed.

Mexican authorities seem to take a particular delight in arresting and imprisoning unwitting Americans who are not familiar with Mexican gun laws. Americans may not bring legal guns or ammunition into Mexico. Possession of even one bullet can get you thrown in a medieval Mexican prison. The State Department says that at any one time there are about 80 Americans imprisoned in Mexico for minor gun crimes. The State Department even went so far as to issue a special notice to U.S. gun owners, warning about harsh Mexican gun laws. Americans are allowed to hunt in Mexico, but they must first obtain a permit from the Mexican Embassy or a Mexican Consulate before taking their hunting rifles south of the border.

Mexico's murder rate is an eye-popping 17.5. Mexican authorities are fond of blaming the high murder rate on firearms smuggled across the border from the United States. Nonsense. The U.S. has many more personal guns than Mexico, yet our murder rate is far lower than Mexico's. It is Mexico's absurd gun laws that prevent law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves against illegally armed criminals.

Guns are effectively outlawed in Russia. Private handgun ownership is totally prohibited. A permit is required to purchase a long gun. All guns are registered with authorities. When transporting a long gun, it must be disassembled. Long guns may only be used for self-defense when the gun owner is on his own property. By the way, Russia's murder rate is a staggering 30.6.

It is surprising to learn that there is gun trouble in the tropical paradises of Trinidad and Tobago. Here a permit is required to purchase a gun. All guns are registered with the police. In spite of (or perhaps because of) these restrictions, Trinidad and Tobago together have a murder rate of 11.7.

The fundamental measure of gun-control success still applies. The countries I have discussed, along with many others, have gun laws that are more restrictive than U.S. laws, yet their murder rates exceed the U.S. murder rate. These laws clearly do not meet the fundamental measure of success, which is ultimately to save lives.

What anti-gunners all over the world fail to understand is that people everywhere are basically the same in one important respect. They are determined to protect themselves and their families. If their governments will not allow them to have firearms for self-defense, then they may obtain guns illegally, even at the risk of harsh punishment. It is a natural human response to danger.

[Shadow-XII]

At 3/5/01 11:50 PM, Pantomime_Horse wrote: Stuff

I love guns, and beleive in good control to keep people alive, and think America needs to crack down on their policies.

A few years back a cop was injured when a man broke into some guy's house and broke open a glass cabinent full of assault rifles and ammo, and shot at the police pursuing him, cos ten minutes before, he shot his mother and some other old lady?

Glass cabinet? FFS. In NZ, if you can get into your gun case without a key or access code, it's illegal to have.

[TheLastDinosaur]

gun laws are just fucking retarded, but taking away guns isn't the answer.

you see, it's not how many guns we have, its who has them.
we wouldn't have any murders if every citizen owned a gun, but wasn't afraid of anything, had a good job, and lived in general harmony.

case in point: in Texas, you can have as many guns as you want, and conceal them anywhere. Gun deaths have gone down significantly since this law was instated. Probably because thieves don't want to find out if you have a gun after they break into your house.

but allowing people to own automatic weapons is just stupid. What the hell are you gonna do with an automatic weapon other than kill a lot of people? Hunting deer with an AK isn't exactly "effective", and unless a horde of Saudis are breaking down your door right now, having a loaded M16 in your house is an accident waiting to happen.

I find that just owning a gun is enough, it doesn't have to be loaded. I mean, if a guy is gonna break into my house, I don't think he's gonna stick around to see if the gun pointed at his head is loaded or not. That's protection enough for me.

guns were invented to kill things.
not to "liberate", "free", or "protect" things.

EDN.