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At 10/18/06 04:49 PM, SirXVII wrote:

Oh, so we've redefined the meaning of torture?

Yes... you are.

Ok, there's several things wrong here.....

First being the start date of Habeas Corpus.......

A little hard for Americans to have that right 600 years before being a country (regardless of when the writ was first introduced, it doesn't apply to Americans until "America" exists)......

Second, it should read this:

Habeas Corpus: 1789 - 1861. Suspended by Lincoln.

1865- 1870.
Suspended by Grant.

Late 1870s -2006.
With rights to Habeas Corpus being limited by the Supreme Court in 1990s , and by Congress in 1996 (Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act).

At least have the decency to give an accurate account of the history of Habeas Corpus.....

Dumbass......

At 10/19/06 08:13 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 10/18/06 10:51 PM, troubles1 wrote:

At 10/18/06 03:43 PM, FightingForFreedom wrote:
Seriously. They exist to protect us, but whose protecting us from them?

LOOK as long as you don't want to bomb the American people or be involved in some extremist movement you will be OK.

Unless you have a name that's pretty close to the name of a terrorist, or you say a word that sounds kind of like "airplane" while you talk to someone on the phone.

Then you might be held and tortured in a foreign black site for months or years without ever being charged with anything.

Either way I And most Americans will not worry and not loose any sleep over it , actually it will let us sleep better knowing our government is doing the job we need them to.

Waah waah, all these crybabies need to fuckoff. Without this form of interrogation (hell I'm just going to call it college hazing) how the hell would you obtain information? By asking Mr. Jehad nicely? These people only respond to violence and the only place civility will you get you with them is nowhere.

By the way, I don't remember when playing loud music was comparable with attaching electroids to a person's nuts.

At 10/19/06 09:21 PM, BanditByte wrote:

By the way, I don't remember when playing loud music was comparable with attaching electroids to a person's nuts.

I should've sued those guys down the street for torture as they were playing their music too loud.

At 10/18/06 04:27 PM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

At 10/18/06 04:01 PM, Grammer wrote: I am glad this bill passed. Enemy combatants don't have constitutional rights. As long as they are given trial when the war is over, I see no problem with this bill.

Yes perhaps if the war were a quickie but mind you there are wars which last for decades and we're no exception. What if you spent 15-years in guantanamo bay on false accusations you were a possible enemy combatant? What if you had family? The only thing you can't get back in life is time, there is no monetary compensation for that, it goes beyond just money.

The only issue I have with this bill is that it includes American Citizens. Suspending habeus corpus for a legit American is completely wrong. As for non-americans, they're not entitled the specific rights under American law, especially if there's grounds to believe they're operating with terror cells. If you want to get tough on terror you're going to have to fight a little harder than throwing "what if he has a family" cotton-candy ideology.

Islamic Jihadists know how to work the U.S. legal system, and without a doubt the mainstream media for sympathy and support. Detaining known terrorists and extracting information from them is one area I trust men in uniform VASTLY over an ACLU lawyer. However I draw the line at including witholding rights of American citizens.

At 10/20/06 01:19 AM, Nylo wrote: The only issue I have with this bill is that it includes American Citizens. Suspending habeus corpus for a legit American is completely wrong.

I understand what Bush is trying to accomplish and I understand his impatience. His term is almost over, elections for congress are coming up, they want answers damnit! However, since this includes U.S. citizens, let me give you a scenario. Say someone dislikes you, or someone dislikes someone you know or of your family. All that person needs to do is drop a line they suspect the person they dislike is plotting something and you're in hot water, no evidence necessary.

At 10/19/06 08:55 PM, troubles1 wrote: Either way I And most Americans will not worry and not loose any sleep over it , actually it will let us sleep better knowing our government is doing the job we need them to.

You'll sleep better knowing that innocent people can be abducted at any time, held and tortured for months in other countries, then if they are released, they have no legal recourse whatsoever?

Do you feel safer knowing that taxi drivers who happened to drive by the base at the wrong time might get chained to the ceiling for days and beaten to death without any evidence against them?

By the way, does that fit your defenition of torture yet? Or is chaining someone to the ceiling by their hands and hitting them until they die still "coercive interrogation"?

Yeah, I'm a lot less concerned about what they do to Folks from other country's than what I get the nasty feeling this is starting to lean towards.

A governing body cannot take all your freedoms away at once, to obvious, people are stupid, but even they notice that, History has proven that doesn't work.

But if you take them away little by little, then you have a lot less chance of getting caught until it's to late for the people to do anything about it.

That's what I've been seeing the Government of America doing for awhile now, it's really quite a bother, Makes Canada sound nice despite the coldness.

So what can be done? Well, Not much really, if this goes through without a hitch, even less.

Dark times are coming, coming for us all.

Well...in the US anyway.

Actually, Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus briefly. It was more of a 650 year run.

At 10/20/06 10:32 AM, Elfer wrote:

At 10/19/06 08:55 PM, troubles1 wrote: Either way I And most Americans will not worry and not loose any sleep over it , actually it will let us sleep better knowing our government is doing the job we need them to.

You'll sleep better knowing that innocent people can be abducted at any time, held and tortured for months in other countries, then if they are released, they have no legal recourse whatsoever?

Do you feel safer knowing that taxi drivers who happened to drive by the base at the wrong time might get chained to the ceiling for days and beaten to death without any evidence against them?

By the way, does that fit your defenition of torture yet? Or is chaining someone to the ceiling by their hands and hitting them until they die still "coercive interrogation"?

Yea, I can sleep much better. I was on the front line, and I know the capability and savagery of the enemy, we are dealing with,This enemy that truly tortures there own people without remorse. I know the thoughts of thinking if they can do this to them what would they do to us..
Don't take it that I want any Innocent people to ever be put in a situation were they would have harm done to them needlessly. But I understand that it is an unfortunate fact, that there will be the unfortunate few that will suffer, for the outcome of a secure America. And a safer and Democratic middle east.

At 10/21/06 02:33 AM, troubles1 wrote: Don't take it that I want any Innocent people to ever be put in a situation were they would have harm done to them needlessly. But I understand that it is an unfortunate fact, that there will be the unfortunate few that will suffer, for the outcome of a secure America. And a safer and Democratic middle east.

Yes but you're not exception to the law. If your country saw you as an enemy for whatever reason, you'd have no right to ask for a trial because habeas corpus would not exist. Then you might be subject to torture or coercive interrogation by your own country no less :(

this is a link that a friend sent me that i think belongs here. its a movie on google that i think we should all see and form an opinion. sry havent really figured out that whole hyperlinking thing so just copy and paste. please let me know what you think and if you like it pass it on, and yes, its related to the topic at hand.

http://video.google...-4312730277175242198

At 10/25/06 04:28 PM, Grammer wrote: Source plz

He actually said that on the local news. I think I was watching Kcal at the time I saw the story. I think they also ran the story on the Warner Bros network and NBC.

At 10/25/06 04:28 PM, Grammer wrote:

Bottom line: coercive interogation saves lives. If we went strictly by the Geneva Convention, where we can only ask for name, rank, and jihad number, we would have hundreds of dead Americans on the streets of Los Angeles.

Do you think it's ok to "coercively interrogate" innocent people? You wouldn't mind to be picked up from the street and waterboarded because the CIA has reason to believe you have information about terrorists?

No doubt that "coercively interrogating" has yielded information that has saved lives. But there's also no doubt that the vast majority of the suspects interrogated are innocent (and at least until proven guilty). Is saving hundred lives a year worth abandoning the basic principles western civilization for? Is it worth the price?

Why not just approve torture? Start cutting off limbs, those diehards that won't confess after being waterboarded, either because they are religious zealots that won't break after loud music or waterboarding, or because they're innocent and don't have the information, they'll break when they are shown their own innards. I'm sure we can save a couple of hundred lives more that way. Where do we draw the line?

I think that being held underwater until you nearly drown is going a bit far. Even if applied to an already convicted and proven terrorist. But opinions differ, and if you think that that's a perfectly reasonable practice, comparable to loud music, that's entirely ok to be used on innocents and civilians, sure. But just how far back towards the middle ages are you willing to go?

You should feel glad (and by glad I mean Terrified) that your patriotic president is doing his best to take your freedom that all Americans diserve.

George Bush Quote
Who the fuck needs something as silly as a trial and fair rights.

What is this thing you call morality It must be a made up word.

If our priminister was like that I would be doing somthing about it !!

At 10/18/06 04:49 PM, SirXVII wrote: Right.

If they aren't harmed, it isn't torture.

Otherwise, anything unpleasant is torture.

Hey, putting someone in a jail cell is demeaning and uncomfortable, let's let them out!

by the time bush is done with ya youle all be in a jail cell