Competition Theory

[implodinggoat]

This is a thought I have been rolling around recently.

Competition is a neccesity for progress and human happiness.

In nature the neccesity for competition is obvious taking the form of survival of the fittest. However in man who's technology, religion, and arrogance has led him to believe he is somehow above the laws of nature the neccesity of competition is slightly less obvious but no less vital.

In society it forces man to work to be his best and thus acquire a better job and a fatter paycheck. Thus increasing productivity and benefiting both the economy and society. When man is given no incentive to strive to suceed (in capitalism monetary gain) such as in communism then the populous becomes less educated since an engineer (who recquirs a great deal of sleepless nights becoming educated for said position) is paid the same as a factory worker who recquires little training. In addition the individual worker has little incentive to work harder to achieve a better job as he will be paid the same no matter his position. As a result of the less educated and less motivated workers the economy becomes severly crippled.

In bussiness competition between companies leads to better quality products, and lower prices for the consumer. Without bussinesses competing against eachother as in socialism, the producer (in this case the government) has no reason to create a better product and thus the consumer suffers.

In politics competition takes the form of democracy and forces politicians to strive to serve the people. Without political competition the government is free to violate its citizens rights however it wishes. Civil rights go out the window and the Lockean concept of the rights of man becomes little more than a memory.

[mysecondstar]

ahh, the wonders of capitalism.

you are more than correct in saying this. it's no wonder why places that institute capitalism thirve. but i have a twist to your theory.

we all wish to have a fatter paycheck. this usually leads to higher status or regard in the community. with this leads to some influence. obviously, the more influence you have the more power you have over people's judgement.

many people thirst for this kind of power. it's no wonder why actors, with fat paychecks but not really the mind to match, have so much influence on people's thoughts and judgements. you see a mindless horde of people waying that the Iraqi conflict is all about oil, when, in fact, it is not. a tangent, yes, but i'll continue.

it is this drive for power that leads people to want to succeed. there is almost no man who wouldn't want that kind of power and influence.

[implodinggoat]

At 3/23/03 01:12 AM, mysecondstar wrote:

it is this drive for power that leads people to want to succeed. there is almost no man who wouldn't want that kind of power and influence.

Very true. This is why men must be forced to compete against eachother. If those in power are not forced to compete to keep their position then they are able to do whatever they wish with their power.

In communist and socialist systems government beuracrats are given great deals of power and thus the corruption inherent in the system rears its ugly head as these beuracrats give them self larger homes, better cars, and more and more power.

[mysecondstar]

At 3/23/03 01:26 AM, implodinggoat wrote:

At 3/23/03 01:12 AM, mysecondstar wrote:

it is this drive for power that leads people to want to succeed. there is almost no man who wouldn't want that kind of power and influence.

Very true. This is why men must be forced to compete against eachother. If those in power are not forced to compete to keep their position then they are able to do whatever they wish with their power.

In communist and socialist systems government beuracrats are given great deals of power and thus the corruption inherent in the system rears its ugly head as these beuracrats give them self larger homes, better cars, and more and more power.

you do realize that those that are in power tend to stay in a seat of power. for example, ex-presidents hold no official power, yet they have great influence ie. Jimmy Carter. as an individual he can not do much, yet he influences people to follow. he single-handedly created Habitat for Humanity and many people adhear to his ideals and way of thinking. all this comeing from a former peanut farmer. he also influences many politicians to the same ideals and thinking thereby making more "Jimmy Carters" in a sense. scary thought... more Jimmy Carters...

[Slizor]

Ah, Social Darwinism.

I'm just wondering, obviously this competition is all about profit, they try to think of new ways of keeping prices low and profit high. So what would this lead to? Well it would obviously lead to as low as possible pay, destroying the enviroment (if it's profitable as it usually is) oh and you would of course have to bribe officals to stop anti-trust legislation and start forming your cartels to crush all other competition.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

[swayside]

At 3/23/03 07:44 AM, Slizor wrote: Ah, Social Darwinism.

I'm just wondering, obviously this competition is all about profit, they try to think of new ways of keeping prices low and profit high. So what would this lead to? Well it would obviously lead to as low as possible pay, destroying the enviroment (if it's profitable as it usually is) oh and you would of course have to bribe officals to stop anti-trust legislation and start forming your cartels to crush all other competition.

as i said before, ever anti-gun person in america has the right to own one. just because they can, doesn't mwan they will.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

of course some governmental presense will be inevitable. however, the government should NEVER regulate wages, prices, working conditions, etc.

[Ted-Easton]

There is already a post titled "Competition".
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=59036

(not that the subjects are at all related =P_

[Slizor]

I'm just wondering, obviously this competition is all about profit, they try to think of new ways of keeping prices low and profit high. So what would this lead to? Well it would obviously lead to as low as possible pay, destroying the enviroment (if it's profitable as it usually is) oh and you would of course have to bribe officals to stop anti-trust legislation and start forming your cartels to crush all other competition.

as i said before, ever anti-gun person in america has the right to own one. just because they can, doesn't mwan they will.

What if they have a motive to? Would they do it then? Because companies have a motive.

of course some governmental presense will be inevitable. however, the government should NEVER regulate wages, prices, working conditions, etc.

So they should not force companies to respect a worker's rights?

[implodinggoat]

At 3/23/03 07:44 AM, Slizor wrote: I'm just wondering, obviously this competition is all about profit, they try to think of new ways of keeping prices low and profit high. So what would this lead to? Well it would obviously lead to as low as possible pay, destroying the enviroment (if it's profitable as it usually is) oh and you would of course have to bribe officals to stop anti-trust legislation and start forming your cartels to crush all other competition.

You obviously don't get the point. You may attempt to crush all other competition but in a capitalist system there will almost always be some sort of competition. In addition producers may attempt to lower their wages for greater profits but if they do their workers will move to other companies and they will have to settle for less skilled and qualified workers. Their product quality will go down, the amount they can charge for their product goes down and thus profits go down.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

Yes a small degree of government intervention is neccasary. However if you surrender total control of the economy to the government then the laws of competition that drive capitalism fail and you are left with once company who can make an extremely poor product (ever seen a Soviet made washing machine?) and treat their workers extremly poorly because the workers and consumers have no alternative.

By the way you mentioned the enviorment.....perhaps you should take a look at the damage that Soviet heavy industry reaped before you start criticizing the horrors of capitalism.

[Slizor]

I'm just wondering, obviously this competition is all about profit, they try to think of new ways of keeping prices low and profit high. So what would this lead to? Well it would obviously lead to as low as possible pay, destroying the enviroment (if it's profitable as it usually is) oh and you would of course have to bribe officals to stop anti-trust legislation and start forming your cartels to crush all other competition.

You obviously don't get the point. You may attempt to crush all other competition but in a capitalist system there will almost always be some sort of competition.

You obviously haven't seen what major corporations do. They destroy competition, they have the power of larger resources and believe me, it's a power.

In addition producers may attempt to lower their wages for greater profits but if they do their workers will move to other companies and they will have to settle for less skilled and qualified workers.

There is rarely a choice of simply moving to another company.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

Yes a small degree of government intervention is neccasary. However if you surrender total control of the economy to the government then the laws of competition that drive capitalism fail and you are left with once company who can make an extremely poor product (ever seen a Soviet made washing machine?) and treat their workers extremly poorly because the workers and consumers have no alternative.

Not if these institutions are accountable to the public. Anyhow, why would anyone want to make poor products? Why would anyone want to treat people poorly?

By the way you mentioned the enviorment.....perhaps you should take a look at the damage that Soviet heavy industry reaped before you start criticizing the horrors of capitalism.

Free market Capitalism, State Capitalism, what's the difference?

[JudgeDredd]

At 3/23/03 01:03 AM, implodinggoat wrote:

..all about Competition Theory 101

Competition Actual

Nations of Earth must strive to have more WOMD - just in case global competition errupts. These weapons must race to become ever more hi-tech methods of killing one-another from a distance.

Humans must fight for scarce and limited global assets either from direct conflict, or by joint bullying the lesser states/corporations into relinquishing their allotment of natural resources.

"Rich get Richer" is built into the system legally so that once you attain enviable wealth you prolly won't have to work another day in your life, but just develop more exorbitant and wasteful ways to endulge oneself, ie. the American Dream.

Corporations that can cut the costs of production to the bone will survive. Quality must suffer. Obsolescence must be built in to retain future sales. Human traits, like workers rights, erode in the global marketplace of slave-labourforce.

Dominance leads to a McDonalds and Starbucks on every street corner the world over, and the vast variety of cafe-culture or diversity of boutique shopping becomes a mere nostalgic memory, a.k.a. "one size fits all"

Competition in education leads us to spend more than 1 third of our lifes in formalized training that doesn't necessariry link to our prefered production setting.

We sleep less and less each year, against our genetic concious/subconcious evolution which suggests "downtime" is a necessary evil of info-rich thought processes in our everyday decision-making.

Competition == Human Suffering!

What is generally known as "running in circles faster and faster.."

[implodinggoat]

At 3/23/03 06:10 PM, Slizor wrote:

You obviously don't get the point. You may attempt to crush all other competition but in a capitalist system there will almost always be some sort of competition.

You obviously haven't seen what major corporations do. They destroy competition, they have the power of larger resources and believe me, it's a power.

Yes but they must always struggle against those in their market. Ford may be an obscenely powerful company but their will always be other obscenely powerful companies like a GM or a Toyota out there to compete with them

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

Not if these institutions are accountable to the public. Anyhow, why would anyone want to make poor products? Why
would anyone want to treat people poorly?

Greed, power, corruption! You are an idealistic fool if you think that people will naturally look out for the best intrests of their fellow man. You seem quite capable of critiqueing capitalism but the idea that corruption could spoil your perfect concept of socialism and communism shows your hypocrisy.

By the way you mentioned the enviorment.....perhaps you should take a look at the damage that Soviet heavy industry reaped before you start criticizing the horrors of capitalism.

Free market Capitalism, State Capitalism, what's the difference?

Altering history for your own uses is the mark of those unable to deal with reality. Denying that the USSR was a communist state is perhaps the stupidest thing I have heard.

[Slizor]

You obviously don't get the point. You may attempt to crush all other competition but in a capitalist system there will almost always be some sort of competition.

You obviously haven't seen what major corporations do. They destroy competition, they have the power of larger resources and believe me, it's a power.

Yes but they must always struggle against those in their market. Ford may be an obscenely powerful company but their will always be other obscenely powerful companies like a GM or a Toyota out there to compete with them

No no, that's doesn't follow, because there are, doesn't mean there will be. And also, companies can be taken over by their rivals or they could form a cartel.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

Not if these institutions are accountable to the public. Anyhow, why would anyone want to make poor products? Why
would anyone want to treat people poorly?

Greed, power, corruption!

How would making poor products benifit them? Or anyone?

You are an idealistic fool if you think that people will naturally look out for the best intrests of their fellow man.

You are a fool if you think you can define human nature.

By the way you mentioned the enviorment.....perhaps you should take a look at the damage that Soviet heavy industry reaped before you start criticizing the horrors of capitalism.

Free market Capitalism, State Capitalism, what's the difference?

Altering history for your own uses is the mark of those unable to deal with reality. Denying that the USSR was a communist state is perhaps the stupidest thing I have heard.

Here's an authority
http://www.umass.edu/chronicle/archives/02/10-11/economics.html
And here is something to think about.
If the USSR was communist, it would be classless. If that was the case then there would not be the nomenklatura (I may have got the spelling wrong) the Russian elite. It clearly wasn't Communist at the start, by definition and it never became Communist.

[implodinggoat]

At 3/24/03 10:40 AM, Slizor wrote: No no, that's doesn't follow, because there are, doesn't mean there will be. And also, companies can be taken over by their rivals or they could form a cartel.

Total monopolies are extremely rare in bussiness and they are almost always very short lived.

A state of permanent competition is not possible without Government intervention. would be willing to accept government intervention?

Not if these institutions are accountable to the public. Anyhow, why would anyone want to make poor products? Why
would anyone want to treat people poorly?

Greed, power, corruption!

How would making poor products benifit them? Or anyone?

If they make poor products they can take more of the money intended to be invested in said products for themselves. Without the threat of other companies who can draw potential consumers away the quality of the product doesn't matter.

By the way you mentioned the enviorment.....perhaps you should take a look at the damage that Soviet heavy industry reaped before you start criticizing the horrors of capitalism.

Free market Capitalism, State Capitalism, what's the difference?

Altering history for your own uses is the mark of those unable to deal with reality. Denying that the USSR was a communist state is perhaps the stupidest thing I have heard.

Here's an authority
http://www.umass.edu/chronicle/archives/02/10-11/economics.html
And here is something to think about.
If the USSR was communist, it would be classless. If that was the case then there would not be the nomenklatura (I may have got the spelling wrong) the Russian elite. It clearly wasn't Communist at the start, by definition and it never became Communist.

Some will always be in positions of authority thus a classless society is impossible. Work must be directed and the obscenely powerful government recquired in a communist system must be directed.

The ultimate falacy of communism is the belief that everyone is equal and the same. A Billy Carter is not the equal of an Albert Einstein, placing them as equals is moronic.

[Slizor]

Greed, power, corruption!

How would making poor products benifit them? Or anyone?

If they make poor products they can take more of the money intended to be invested in said products for themselves.

Yes...*chuckle (this was sn***er but that word is banned)* of course they will! Because that is so possible, it's not like people would notice or anything!

Without the threat of other companies who can draw potential consumers away the quality of the product doesn't matter.

Not many people actually want to make shit products.

Here's an authority
http://www.umass.edu/chronicle/archives/02/10-11/economics.html
And here is something to think about.
If the USSR was communist, it would be classless. If that was the case then there would not be the nomenklatura (I may have got the spelling wrong) the Russian elite. It clearly wasn't Communist at the start, by definition and it never became Communist.

Some will always be in positions of authority thus a classless society is impossible.

Not in a democracy (that is also Communist, which is the only way). Ultimate authority rests with the people, who have equal power.

Work must be directed and the obscenely powerful government recquired in a communist system must be directed.

Directed...by who? Or did you mean "direct it"?

The ultimate falacy of communism is the belief that everyone is equal and the same. A Billy Carter is not the equal of an Albert Einstein, placing them as equals is moronic.

They're not equal in ability, they are equal in status though. Does being good at something make you a better person? If I am good at football is my worth as a person increased?

[implodinggoat]

At 3/24/03 05:45 PM, Slizor wrote:

Greed, power, corruption!

How would making poor products benifit them? Or anyone?

If they make poor products they can take more of the money intended to be invested in said products for themselves.

Yes...*chuckle (this was sn***er but that word is banned)* of course they will! Because that is so possible, it's not like people would notice or anything!

Yes people would notice but what the fuck would they do about it?

Without the threat of other companies who can draw potential consumers away the quality of the product doesn't matter.

Not many people actually want to make shit products.

Here's an authority
http://www.umass.edu/chronicle/archives/02/10-11/economics.html
And here is something to think about.
If the USSR was communist, it would be classless. If that was the case then there would not be the nomenklatura (I may have got the spelling wrong) the Russian elite. It clearly wasn't Communist at the start, by definition and it never became Communist.

Some will always be in positions of authority thus a classless society is impossible.

Not in a democracy (that is also Communist, which is the only way). Ultimate authority rests with the people, who have equal power.

Oh I see so you intend to have no management either. So everyone is going to direct themselves as to what they want to work on.....yes that is brilliant we will have an entire society of video game testers and bad poets.

Or perhaps you intend for us all to work on communes with only one job course available to us?

Do you have no aspirations? Do you not dream of something more than wasting your life as a mindless pawn in a farm or factory?

In your classless society there is no advancement their is nothing beyond work and death.

Work must be directed and the obscenely powerful government recquired in a communist system must be directed.

Directed...by who? Or did you mean "direct it"?

Management, politicians, ringing any bells. Mindless uneducated workers can't effeciently direct their own labor or affairs.

The ultimate falacy of communism is the belief that everyone is equal and the same. A Billy Carter is not the equal of an Albert Einstein, placing them as equals is moronic.

They're not equal in ability, they are equal in status though. Does being good at something make you a better person? If I am good at football is my worth as a person increased?

Yes it is, if you have an IQ of 70 and work in a factory I would say that Albert Einstein is more valuable to society than you.

[Disguy-youknow]

This is my take on the socialist v capitialism debate: competition must be balanced with equality. A pure capitialism leads to horrific corruption, as seen all thoguh the 19th century, where companies were free to lie about their products and discourage competition. Anti-trust legislation stop monopolies from forming, which is a good thing, and monopolies abuse the market. Hell look at Mircosoft. Capitalism works, but onlt if there is suffent rules and regualtions to ensure companies "play by the rules"

[Slizor]

Yes people would notice but what the fuck would they do about it?

The police? Really, can you not think about things so basic?

Not in a democracy (that is also Communist, which is the only way). Ultimate authority rests with the people, who have equal power.

Oh I see so you intend to have no management either. So everyone is going to direct themselves as to what they want to work on.....yes that is brilliant we will have an entire society of video game testers and bad poets.

Management is part of the state, the state is controlled by the people therefore the people have authority over management.

Do you have no aspirations? Do you not dream of something more than wasting your life as a mindless pawn in a farm or factory?

Yes, I dream of a society where people are actually allowed to follow their ambitions.

They're not equal in ability, they are equal in status though. Does being good at something make you a better person? If I am good at football is my worth as a person increased?

Yes it is, if you have an IQ of 70 and work in a factory I would say that Albert Einstein is more valuable to society than you.

Their value to society is not their value as a person. No ability can increase your worth as a person (notice not to society, but as a person).

[JMHX]

Microsoft is the Rockefeller alliance of the present. Man, I wouldn't go comparing Bill Gates to ol' Rocky, though. Rockefeller had a few morals. A few. Then there was Carnegie, who was for the most part a sane capitalist animal. Joy to competition and capitalism.

[implodinggoat]

At 3/25/03 11:49 AM, Slizor wrote:

Yes people would notice but what the fuck would they do about it?

The police? Really, can you not think about things so basic?

Ahh yes the police also controlled by the same government that controls all bussiness and employment....yes the people have a great deal of power in your system don't they?

Oh I see so you intend to have no management either. So everyone is going to direct themselves as to what they want to work on.....yes that is brilliant we will have an entire society of video game testers and bad poets.

Management is part of the state, the state is controlled by the people therefore the people have authority over management.

How? From what I have heard you have built up an obscenely powerful government that you claim the people are somehow going to be able to control. How?

People must act meekly to keep their employers happy as it is. How would they act if their boss was a government official who could have the police drag you off to some god forsaken Gulag?

Do you have no aspirations? Do you not dream of something more than wasting your life as a mindless pawn in a farm or factory?

Yes, I dream of a society where people are actually allowed to follow their ambitions.

Yet you are willing to place such stringent limits on peoples success and happiness all in the name of total equality. I don't want to live in a society where my own work and skills mean nothing, where I live in the same apartment as every other man, and where the government controls my fate.

Yes it is, if you have an IQ of 70 and work in a factory I would say that Albert Einstein is more valuable to society than you.

Their value to society is not their value as a person. No ability can increase your worth as a person (notice not to society, but as a person).

How does one measure someones worth as a person? I suppose you plan on implementing some sort of state mandated morality so that you can make such judgements.

[Slizor]

The police? Really, can you not think about things so basic?

Ahh yes the police also controlled by the same government that controls all bussiness and employment....yes the people have a great deal of power in your system don't they?

Yes, the people have power over all business and employment as it is a democracy and all business and employment is in the hands of the state, which is in the hands of the people. This gives the average person far more power than in your capitalist system where it is controlled by the wealthy elite.

Oh I see so you intend to have no management either. So everyone is going to direct themselves as to what they want to work on.....yes that is brilliant we will have an entire society of video game testers and bad poets.

Management is part of the state, the state is controlled by the people therefore the people have authority over management.

How? From what I have heard you have built up an obscenely powerful government that you claim the people are somehow going to be able to control. How?

It's a little thing called "democracy". The people will hold the government to account. This would of course involve many structures such as British select committees and various other such things.

People must act meekly to keep their employers happy as it is. How would they act if their boss was a government official who could have the police drag you off to some god forsaken Gulag?

Now who said I would give the people who work in business power in the Police? Why would anyone who wants to build a democracy do that?

Do you have no aspirations? Do you not dream of something more than wasting your life as a mindless pawn in a farm or factory?

Yes, I dream of a society where people are actually allowed to follow their ambitions.

Yet you are willing to place such stringent limits on peoples success and happiness all in the name of total equality.

There are no limits on peoples success and happiness. People can rise to the top from the bottom all the more easily. As for their happiness....well that's just another one of your embellishments.

I don't want to live in a society where my own work and skills mean nothing

They mean you get a better job.

where I live in the same apartment as every other man

Who said you would live in the same appartment?

and where the government controls my fate.

Ultimately, you control your own fate. In every system there are people who can effect your fate.

Yes it is, if you have an IQ of 70 and work in a factory I would say that Albert Einstein is more valuable to society than you.

Their value to society is not their value as a person. No ability can increase your worth as a person (notice not to society, but as a person).

How does one measure someones worth as a person? I suppose you plan on implementing some sort of state mandated morality so that you can make such judgements.

Heh, law is based on morality, all countries have a "state mandated morality".

[Freakapotimus]

At 3/24/03 05:45 PM, Slizor wrote: *chuckle (this was sn***er but that word is banned)*

I asked liljim about that, and he was about to do something to fix it. *sniggers*

You still cannot use the "n" word that is contained in it, though.

[JMHX]

At 3/26/03 08:29 AM, Freakapotimus wrote:

At 3/24/03 05:45 PM, Slizor wrote: *chuckle (this was sn***er but that word is banned)*

I asked liljim about that, and he was about to do something to fix it. *sniggers*

You still cannot use the "n" word that is contained in it, though.

And rightfully so. There's no call for that, and I've yet to see a time when it was EVER called for.

[Anti-corruption]

Competition is ok. as long it is a peaceful and a constructive one in achieving better results.

IF not, that competition needs to stop. otherwise, you will lead the simple-minded and the innocent people into trouble.

Example:- In China from the 1920s to 1949, the intense and bloody competition between the Kuomingtang and the Chinese Communist Party. (CCP)

[JMHX]

At 3/26/03 10:03 AM, Anti-corruption wrote: Competition is ok. as long it is a peaceful and a constructive one in achieving better results.

IF not, that competition needs to stop. otherwise, you will lead the simple-minded and the innocent people into trouble.

Sort of like this competition for supremacy that Hussein and Bush are fighting for. It's like a game of Jeopardy played with missiles and tanks. Bah.

[implodinggoat]

At 3/25/03 05:05 PM, Slizor wrote: Yes, the people have power over all business and employment as it is a democracy and all business and employment is in the hands of the state, which is in the hands of the people. This gives the average person far more power than in your capitalist system where it is controlled by the wealthy elite.

Do you not see how fucking powerful a government you are talking about dumbass? The government is damn near impossible for the people to control in the United States as it is now and it has a fraction of the power the fascist state you are proposing. With such an obscene amount of power those in charge can trample on the people with little worry of retribution.

It's a little thing called "democracy". The people will hold the government to account. This would of course involve many structures such as British select committees and various other such things.

Oh yes it would involve many vague institutions that would miraculously keep the government from expanding into a fascist state. The more power the government has the less freedom the people have.

People must act meekly to keep their employers happy as it is. How would they act if their boss was a government official who could have the police drag you off to some god forsaken Gulag?

Now who said I would give the people who work in business power in the Police? Why would anyone who wants to build a democracy do that?

They are both part of the same all powerful institution.

There are no limits on peoples success and happiness. People can rise to the top from the bottom all the more easily. As for their happiness....well that's just another one of your embellishments.

To the top of what? Huh, You hypocrite? You claim that their is a classless society there is nothing to the rise to the top off! You are left to stay in the same sad condition you have lived in your entire life. There is no hope of glory or triumph without the government. I want to be able to tell myself that I made my life it wasn't given to me by the government. I could never be happy knowing I am nothing but a tool of the government.

You will have teachers telling their students "Remember when you grow up you can be whatever the government tells you you can!". The present is Orwellian enough...your future sickens me.

I don't want to live in a society where my own work and skills mean nothing

They mean you get a better job.

Oh lah tee da! A better job as determined by the government but for the same pay oohhh I can excel so I can do more, harder work for the same pay!

where I live in the same apartment as every other man

Who said you would live in the same appartment?

I get the same pay as everyone else, so I would probably live in a near identicle USSR style tennament as everyone else.

and where the government controls my fate.

Ultimately, you control your own fate. In every system there are people who can effect your fate.

How, how do I control my fate? The government determines where I work, what my job is, what I am paid, where I live. What do I control?

Heh, law is based on morality, all countries have a "state mandated morality".

In modern democratic countries law is based on keeping people from infringing upon the rights of others not on morality. I can understand how this concept would be hard to grasp for someone such as yourself who has no respect for the rights of the individual.

[implodinggoat]

At 3/26/03 10:03 AM, Anti-corruption wrote: IF not, that competition needs to stop. otherwise, you will lead the simple-minded and the innocent people into trouble.

Example:- In China from the 1920s to 1949, the intense and bloody competition between the Kuomingtang and the Chinese Communist Party. (CCP)

So you propose it is better to get on your knees and be trampled upon than to fight for your beliefs?

If Mao Tse Tung and his CCP asscoiates were trying to take over my country I would be fighting pretty fucking hard to stop them. Even if they won I would be sitting on a rooftop with a sniper rifle waiting for the chairman to poke his head out.

[Slizor]

Do you not see how fucking powerful a government you are talking about dumbass? The government is damn near impossible for the people to control in the United States as it is now and it has a fraction of the power the fascist state you are proposing. With such an obscene amount of power those in charge can trample on the people with little worry of retribution.

*yawn* Accountability, it's very easy to understand. People can't be trampled on by the government because the government will be held accountable if it does. Your statement about the US government is a complete assertion and also not indicitive about a system which promises actual democracy.

Oh yes it would involve many vague institutions that would miraculously keep the government from expanding into a fascist state.

Now, why would the government want to expand into a fascist state? And how could it with a system of "checks and balances"?

The more power the government has the less freedom the people have.

That's bullshit.

Now who said I would give the people who work in business power in the Police? Why would anyone who wants to build a democracy do that?

They are both part of the same all powerful institution.

Yet they are seperate. Seperation of powers is one of the most basic ideas of democracy.

There are no limits on peoples success and happiness. People can rise to the top from the bottom all the more easily. As for their happiness....well that's just another one of your embellishments.

To the top of what?

They could actually go from a toilet cleaner to President! Is that not sucess?

You are left to stay in the same sad condition you have lived in your entire life.

Your material wealth may not change but you will not live in the same condition. Why you had to stick sad in there....

There is no hope of glory or triumph without the government. I want to be able to tell myself that I made my life it wasn't given to me by the government.

Are jobs just given in a Capitalist society?

You will have teachers telling their students "Remember when you grow up you can be whatever the government tells you you can!". The present is Orwellian enough...your future sickens me.

Hahahaha. You can be whatever you want to be, the sky is the limit.

but for the same pay oohhh I can excel so I can do more, harder work for the same pay!

Hey just because your only motivation is to make money it doesn't mean everyone elses is.

so I would probably live in a near identicle USSR style tennament as everyone else.

Again, why would people just build the same appartment over and over again? They could make many types of places.

and where the government controls my fate.

Ultimately, you control your own fate. In every system there are people who can effect your fate.

How, how do I control my fate? The government determines where I work, what my job is, what I am paid, where I live. What do I control?

No, you determine where you work, you apply for jobs. The same for what your job is and where you live.

In modern democratic countries law is based on keeping people from infringing upon the rights of others not on morality. I can understand how this concept would be hard to grasp for someone such as yourself who has no respect for the rights of the individual.

I shouldn't have expected someone who hasn't formally been taught about where law comes from, that was silly of me. Tell me, why are there laws banning homosexuality, or not allowing it?

[implodinggoat]

At 3/26/03 05:39 PM, Slizor wrote: *yawn* Accountability, it's very easy to understand. People can't be trampled on by the government because the government will be held accountable if it does. Your statement about the US government is a complete assertion and also not indicitive about a system which promises actual democracy.

Examine the past, look into Germany circa 1932. A democracy can evolve into a fascist state.

What do you mean by actual democracy? Do you mean non representative democracy? If so then you must realize that such a system isn't possible on a large scale.

Oh yes it would involve many vague institutions that would miraculously keep the government from expanding into a fascist state.

Now, why would the government want to expand into a fascist state? And how could it with a system of "checks and balances"?

People are inherently drawn to power. When given as much power as you propose a government will have little difficulty drawing more power.

Now who said I would give the people who work in business power in the Police? Why would anyone who wants to build a democracy do that?

They are both part of the same all powerful institution.

Yet they are seperate. Seperation of powers is one of the most basic ideas of democracy.

Let us look at the government shall we? Politicians and law officers can pull all sorts of strings do you want your boss given such a position.

They could actually go from a toilet cleaner to President! Is that not sucess?

If the government decides that a person should then he could. His fate is controlled by the whim of the government, so if he plays good little pawn he might live better but what if he questions his government?

Your material wealth may not change but you will not live in the same condition. Why you had to stick sad in there....

So the government decides how well you live? What if you disagree with the government how do you live then?

There is no hope of glory or triumph without the government. I want to be able to tell myself that I made my life it wasn't given to me by the government.

Are jobs just given in a Capitalist society?

No they are not, they are earned. Thus my point.

You will have teachers telling their students "Remember when you grow up you can be whatever the government tells you you can!". The present is Orwellian enough...your future sickens me.

Hahahaha. You can be whatever you want to be, the sky is the limit.

Yes you can be whatever you want if the government deems it so.

Hey just because your only motivation is to make money it doesn't mean everyone elses is.

No? Go asking around, you will find very few people who are unconcerned with money and material goods.

In modern democratic countries law is based on keeping people from infringing upon the rights of others not on morality. I can understand how this concept would be hard to grasp for someone such as yourself who has no respect for the rights of the individual.

I shouldn't have expected someone who hasn't formally been taught about where law comes from, that was silly of me. Tell me, why are there laws banning homosexuality, or not allowing it?

Such laws are technically against sodomy. They wouldn't be legal if they specifically banned homosexuality. They exist because of religious types who make state laws.

[Anti-corruption]

So you propose it is better to get on your knees and be trampled upon than to fight for your beliefs?

If Mao Tse Tung and his CCP asscoiates were trying to take over my country I would be fighting pretty fucking hard to stop them. Even if they won I would be sitting on a rooftop with a sniper rifle waiting for the chairman to poke his head out.

of course for that you have to fight. it's defending your own country.

as fo US liberating Iraq. that's very good. because all along the civilian are ruled under a dictator who use the civilians lives to bully his own neighbours.

if no action done but just talk, who know Iraq could be like Afghanistan.