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At 10/15/06 05:01 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

Hm I think your argument was meant for the British Journalist topic not the civilian execution topic...

Remember that this took place in March of 03 during the invasion of Iraq. The Marines were in the middle of a WAR.

The slaying in thos topic in question happened last week. October 6, 2006.

They had already fought, killed, and their buddies had been killed and disfigured before their eyes. They cannot be expected to have perfect "self-control and ethics" all the time.

Soldiers I know who have been to Iraq tell me nothing's happening there lately. There are pockets of resistance in certain areas and every now and then there's an attempted attack but it's not as tense as it was 3 years ago.

It took place in the middle of a fierce firefight between Marines and Iraqis.

For contrast, the slaying here too place during a relatively calm and quiet night while they were out looking for a known insurgent. They knew the civilian they'd found was nothing more than a civilian.

If the marines were in the middle of a firefight where they themselves were in danger, do you think that they would intentionally take their effort away from fighting the Iraqis to shoot an innocent person just for the hell of it? I don't think so.

They did in this case. What's worse is they tried to frame the civilian they shot! Some of these facts come from your beloved right-wing FOX news of all places!

People don't want to emphathize with the Marines, they just want to jump to a conclusion to support further anti-American propaganda.

That may be true of the far-leftists screaming "CONSPIRACY THEORY, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEE!"

Therefore I think this issue is just another case of the casualties of war, but people are blowing it out of proportion because of their emotional reaction to it.

Personally I think there's something wrong if you're completely numb to innocents dying. It's almost psychopathic. Of course you shouldn't let your emotions run every decision you make in life, on the contrary: you should let logic and rationality handle that, but you shouldn't be insensitive either.

Here's a link to the FOX article on the story: http://www.foxnews.c..nc.politics/pentagon

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At 10/15/06 05:01 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: The British journalist was in the crossfire

Errm, the subject was still the murder of Hashim Ibrahim Awad as far as I know. This wasn't a combat situation, this was frustration and the act of venting that frustration, in the form of ten bullets, at the head of an insurgent's neighbour on April 26, 2006.

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Oh and on the same vein of making decisions based on logic and rationality: there was no rational or logic reason to shoot that civilian, plain and simple. Unfortunately the witness (Bacos) thought it would be more rational if he went with the flow. It's a good thing for him he did because just maybe he might have been shot in order to provide the other soldiers with evidence they were indeed in a skirmish.

It's a shame though that none of the other soldiers could stand their moral ground >:\ strength in numbers would have forced the commanding officer to check himself twice.

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At 10/15/06 06:06 AM, lapis wrote: Errm, the subject was still the murder of Hashim Ibrahim Awad as far as I know. This wasn't a combat situation, this was frustration and the act of venting that frustration, in the form of ten bullets, at the head of an insurgent's neighbour on April 26, 2006.

According to FOX it was more like 17 bullets, from two different soldiers :@ but who cares about the exact figures. They executed the guy and tried to plant evidence, that's just wrong. It's for that same reason of corruption that so many people hate the police in Los Angeles... But I'll stop there, that's a whole other can of worms.

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At 10/13/06 07:17 PM, TehChahlesh wrote:

At 10/13/06 07:17 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote:
Ok then a occurence of war. Im going to pledge war on my next door neibough and you need to die becuase its a normal occurence

YEAH BECAUSE THAT'S THE EXACT SAME THING

Moron

Im also pledging war on my teacher so you must die as well

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oh carp. my bro just got out of iraq.

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At 10/15/06 06:09 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

It's a shame though that none of the other soldiers could stand their moral ground >:\ strength in numbers would have forced the commanding officer to check himself twice.

In the forces, you don't think. If you think about pulling the trigger and the other guy doesn't you end up as a blood smear. If you question the ethics of an order, by the time you get answers that justify whatever you are doing it's already too late.

The CO made a decision, not the right or good decision, but he made it. The troops just did as they were told. In my eyes, if it was all the CO's desicion, then the marines should get given pensions and be allowed to retire with an honourable discharge while the CO rots.
They did their job, they did it without question but with blind loyalty in their CO and that's what the army needs to function.

If the troops did it for a laugh, or bullied the CO into giving the order, then yes they deserve a long trip to the guard room and a good slapping by the MP's, but if they were just following orders everything changes.
I hope none of you can understand that, I hope none of you see any logic or rationality in that, I hope you all stay free minded and untainted by the opinions of others and form your own mindset, but while a squaddie is a squaddie they just do their job and keep their heads down.

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At 10/16/06 09:30 AM, Nikolai-medic wrote:

At 10/15/06 06:09 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

It's a shame though that none of the other soldiers could stand their moral ground >:\ strength in numbers would have forced the commanding officer to check himself twice.

In the forces, you don't think. If you think about pulling the trigger and the other guy doesn't you end up as a blood smear. If you question the ethics of an order, by the time you get answers that justify whatever you are doing it's already too late.

The CO made a decision, not the right or good decision, but he made it. The troops just did as they were told. In my eyes, if it was all the CO's desicion, then the marines should get given pensions and be allowed to retire with an honourable discharge while the CO rots.
They did their job, they did it without question but with blind loyalty in their CO and that's what the army needs to function.

If the troops did it for a laugh, or bullied the CO into giving the order, then yes they deserve a long trip to the guard room and a good slapping by the MP's, but if they were just following orders everything changes.
I hope none of you can understand that, I hope none of you see any logic or rationality in that, I hope you all stay free minded and untainted by the opinions of others and form your own mindset, but while a squaddie is a squaddie they just do their job and keep their heads down.

You're exactly right, although this topic is actually about a different incident. But troops on the front don't have the luxury of second-guessing their boss like we do. Refusing an order can get you a perfectly legal bullet in the head under the right (or wrong) circumstances. Personally, I think the CO should be shot, while his troops get general discharges. Even then, I only think he should be punished for the house-to-house raids. While it was unfortunate that the people in the cab were shot, they did disobey the soldiers' orders. Why they did was understandable, but given the situation the soldiers were in, their actions up to that point were justifiable. As for what happened afterwards, they don't deserve honorable discharges, but they'll be able to get disability for PTSD with a GD. They're only being prosecuted to appease the media.

As to the topic incident, those guys should be shot. I understand being under pressure and prone to flip out, but that doesn't excuse the crime. They volunteered for it, and they get paid well. The only way discipline can be kept in an army is by having standard punishments for crimes against civilians. This is also the only way that pacification will have any chance of success. Personally, I think they should be handed over to the Iraqi government.

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At 10/13/06 05:10 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

Last friday, a Navy corpsman testified that the Marines in his patrol seized an innocent Iraqi civilian on the way to his home and threw him into a cramped ditch. They were releasing the frustration gained from a search for an insurgent by shooting the Iraqi at least 10 times in the head.

FILTHY FUCIKIN ATHEISTS YALL MAKE MY FUCKIN SICK GO FUCK YOSELVES!