Civilian shot in the head 10 times

[EnragedSephiroth]

I picked up my school's newspaper today and found an article which upset me. It didn't upset me because it happened, it upset me because I put myself in the victim's shoes and suddenly my heart sank and I was depressed for a couple hours. Also, I would at least want someone to learn of this man's tragic, cruel and untimely demise.

The article is as follows:
By Nika Pari Nourmohammadi
Times Contributing Writer

Last friday, a Navy corpsman testified that the Marines in his patrol seized an innocent Iraqi civilian on the way to his home and threw him into a cramped ditch. They were releasing the frustration gained from a search for an insurgent by shooting the Iraqi at least 10 times in the head. Bacos was a medic on patrol with the group and watched in horror as Hashim Ibrahim Awad was killed. Bacos struck a deal with the prosecutors taht he would testify as long as he got a lighter sentence.

[lapis]

Yeah, the medic got 10 years. The Marines told him to "quit being a pussy". It's disgusting but sometimes soldiers go haywire during a war, the only thing that can be done is to punish them. But I do hope that they don't have their prison terms shortened later on.

[cellardoor6]

I did some searches for this story and came up with nothing.

Maybe this Nika is full of crap. It's not like a school newspaper is a credible source of information...

[lapis]

Ah fuck, I totally read over this: "But Petty Officer Melson J Bacos is expected to spend just one year in jail after agreeing to give evidence against seven marines charged with the murder." Never mind.

[EnragedSephiroth]

At 10/13/06 05:18 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I did some searches for this story and came up with nothing.

Maybe this Nika is full of crap. It's not like a school newspaper is a credible source of information...

Dude do you just automatically reject any information you recieve that doesn't fall good on your ears and accept any information which does? Either that or you're a bad searcher because apparently lapis found some additional information. Let me guess now you're going to say lapis and I are in cahoots? Conspiracy theory from a conservative? Please -.-

[lapis]

At 10/13/06 05:26 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote: Let me guess now you're going to say lapis and I are in cahoots?

The BBC is in on it too. And CNN. And Fox News. And ABC News. You can't trust anybody these days.

[poxpower]

People who end up on the fighting fronts are often not the brighest batch of fellahs, because if they were, they'd be in an office pushing a pen instead of doing push-ups in the desert :o

Hence, shit happens.

Just imagine what it was like in ancient times. Imagine the insane shit Roman soldiers could pull when they went "haywire".

[LazyDrunk]

Headz on pikez bitchez

[EnragedSephiroth]

At 10/13/06 05:44 AM, poxpower wrote: People who end up on the fighting fronts are often not the brighest batch of fellahs, because if they were, they'd be in an office pushing a pen instead of doing push-ups in the desert :o

Hence, shit happens.

Just imagine what it was like in ancient times. Imagine the insane shit Roman soldiers could pull when they went "haywire".

Exactly! Thank you pox. A lot of people who end up in the military don't end up there because they got into Yale or something. They end up there for any single or combination of the following reasons:
1. Need the money
2. Can't go to school because of money
3. Don't want to go to school (hence are retarded)
4. Like to be ordered around
5. They are decieved into thinking a military education surpasses a college education (which it does not, I'll give it the benefit of a doubt of saying they're on the same level though).

Notice, the first two reasons I can sympathize with, but the middle two are just plain foolish. And people do go into the military for reasons 3 and 4! A friend of mine in the Army went because he needs the money. His sister, who is in a position to go to college wants to go to the military instead. Why? She doesn't want to go to school, she wants to go out there while waiting for her shaved-head gangster boyfriend to get out of jail. I'm not making this up. She's just one of many examples. Family memebers who have been in the military tell me not to go. Family members who have been in college tell me to go. Hmm.. I wonder why...

In conclusion: If you like to be ordered around, can't think for yourself very well and are afraid of having your own agency, the military might be a place for you. And if you want to be brave and your country seriously does need you (for a serious war and not some stupid invasion) then no one can criticize you.

[Jesus-made-me-do-it]

If I saw someone shoot another person in cold blood like that (if I has a weapon on me) I would shoot that person in the leg and take his weapon and ammo and leave. I would let the cunt scream for help

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/13/06 11:44 AM, the-man-who-knew wrote: If I saw someone shoot another person in cold blood like that (if I has a weapon on me) I would shoot that person in the leg and take his weapon and ammo and leave. I would let the cunt scream for help

Well, that'll get a bit difficult it it was your C.O.

[ImmoralLibertarian]

At 10/13/06 05:18 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Maybe this Nika is full of crap. It's not like a school newspaper is a credible source of information...

You know, sometimes you just make me laugh.

are you for real...?

[Jesus-made-me-do-it]

At 10/13/06 02:02 PM, neoptolemus wrote:

At 10/13/06 11:44 AM, the-man-who-knew wrote: If I saw someone shoot another person in cold blood like that (if I has a weapon on me) I would shoot that person in the leg and take his weapon and ammo and leave. I would let the cunt scream for help

Well, that'll get a bit difficult it it was your C.O.

I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

[LazyDrunk]

At 10/13/06 05:06 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote: I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

Seen Full Metal Jacket too, eh?

[Jesus-made-me-do-it]

At 10/13/06 05:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 10/13/06 05:06 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote: I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

Seen Full Metal Jacket too, eh?

Accualy I havent

[Demosthenez]

At 10/13/06 05:53 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote: 3. Don't want to go to school (hence are retarded)

I hate school. I know I am not dumb. If my parents werent pushing me to go to college I probably would have just enlisted. That is a stupid characterization. School is just not for everyone.

College is just a giant ass waste of time. Maybe a 1/3 of the credits I take are directly related to my major and less than a 1/3 of that 1/3 I actually give a fuck about or are worth learning. College is just a giant waste of money, its a 4 year party service that parents send their kids to to maybe learn some stuff. I wish I could just take my core classes and forget all these stupid extra ones that do nothing but force kids to stay in school longer and pay more cash to the college. Some people see the ruse, some dont.

(for a serious war and not some stupid invasion) then no one can criticize you.

The country always need people serving, not just in times of crisis.

[TehChahlesh]

At 10/13/06 05:06 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote:
I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

So you like being lined up and shot?

Anyhoo, as long as these soldiers are prosecuted, it is a normal occurence of war.

[Imperator]

At 10/13/06 11:44 AM, the-man-who-knew wrote: If I saw someone shoot another person in cold blood like that (if I has a weapon on me) I would shoot that person in the leg and take his weapon and ammo and leave. I would let the cunt scream for help

Stanley Milgram would disagree.

In fact, Dr. MIlgram would probably say you'd be right in there with them firing rounds into the civilian......

And Dr. Zimbardo would wholeheartedly agree......

[Jesus-made-me-do-it]

At 10/13/06 05:15 PM, TehChahlesh wrote:

At 10/13/06 05:06 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote:
I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

So you like being lined up and shot?

Anyhoo, as long as these soldiers are prosecuted, it is a normal occurence of war.

Ok then a occurence of war. Im going to pledge war on my next door neibough and you need to die becuase its a normal occurence

[TehChahlesh]

At 10/13/06 07:17 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote:
Ok then a occurence of war. Im going to pledge war on my next door neibough and you need to die becuase its a normal occurence

YEAH BECAUSE THAT'S THE EXACT SAME THING

Moron

[Tancrisism]

At 10/13/06 05:44 AM, poxpower wrote: Just imagine what it was like in ancient times. Imagine the insane shit Roman soldiers could pull when they went "haywire".

Damn right. They had no Geneva Convention. They could easily be, and often were, mass murderers.

[EnragedSephiroth]

At 10/13/06 05:14 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: School is just not for everyone.

Perhaps not the way it's set up for some. I despised school through my teenage years, especially middle-school and high-school. Somehow the university experience has been totally different and a whole lot more enriching, and I've never even been to a single college party x.x

The country always need people serving, not just in times of crisis.

True that actually. Soldiers are needed in times of peace-keeping or providing humanitarian aid not just in times of all-out war.

[Athlas]

At 10/13/06 05:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 10/13/06 05:06 PM, the-man-who-knew wrote: I wouldnt mind shooting my comanding officer in the skull if I had too.

Seen Full Metal Jacket too, eh?

-"How can you shoot women and children !?"

-"Easy, they don't run as fast." **scary laugh**

[InsertFunnyUserName]

At 10/13/06 05:10 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote: Last friday, a Navy corpsman testified that the Marines in his patrol seized an innocent Iraqi civilian on the way to his home and threw him into a cramped ditch. They were releasing the frustration gained from a search for an insurgent by shooting the Iraqi at least 10 times in the head. Bacos was a medic on patrol with the group and watched in horror as Hashim Ibrahim Awad was killed. Bacos struck a deal with the prosecutors taht he would testify as long as he got a lighter sentence.

That is completely messed up. This is why I want to punch anybody who likes war in the face. Did you know that there are about 10 times more innocent people being killed than there are actuall millitary personell?

[Liankean]

At 10/14/06 09:26 AM, MyNameRocks wrote:
That is completely messed up. This is why I want to punch anybody who likes war in the face. Did you know that there are about 10 times more innocent people being killed than there are actuall millitary personell?

Actually comparing the military to the whole world about 500 times more innocent people die.

[Nikolai-medic]

So none of you like war.

Good.
They don't say "war is hell" for nothing you know.

I'm sorry to hear about the civvie who got slotted, I'm especially sorry for the poor bastard medic who was on the scene.
When I graduate I will be an R.M.O. in the british army, I'll be the guy patching up anyone unlucky or stupid enough to shot. I live with an ex-marine, an ex-submariner and a serving comissioned marine, so I know what it's like out there even if it is a second hand perspective.

Now, your basic squaddie is tapped. Lets face it, he's got a screw loose and it's rattling around his adrenal gland. How else can you point your weapon at another person and not freeze?
Now, I'm not making excuses for these guys, they were plainly in the wrong.
And I'm not trying to blame their training, their parents or their CO.

It's just an unfortunate case of 'being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people'.
If you can't understand that, don't sign up.

But yeah, the whole thing is one big cluster fuck for the ruperts to try and sort out.

[Neoptolemus]

At 10/13/06 05:23 PM, Imperator wrote:

At 10/13/06 11:44 AM, the-man-who-knew wrote:

Stanley Milgram would disagree.

In fact, Dr. MIlgram would probably say you'd be right in there with them firing rounds into the civilian......

And Dr. Zimbardo would wholeheartedly agree......

Exactly. Oh Milgram and Zimbardo, my two favourite psychologists. It's a shame we can't do studies like that anymore.

For all those who lack knowledge on both Milgrams study of obedience and Zimbardo's prison study ( i can never remember the official names so i apologise for that) is that 65% of people would blindly (pretty much) follow someone in authority. While Zimbardo's study found that people with authority tend to be "a bit" abusive with it (guards beating prisoners etc).

[troubles1]

That is a truly sad situation, that should never have happened, and they are getting what they deserve, I do know that bad thing sometimes happen when under that much stress, and when you see how they treat each other they have no respect for life not like we do, everyday they kill decapitate blow up , torture, civilians, this is citizen's doing this to each other because some cleric told them that another tribe does not have Gods favor. these MARINES see this every day, the death, and misery they inflict on each other. it Begin's to wear on a person and sometimes make you like the thing you are fighting.

[EnragedSephiroth]

I agree with what Nikolai concluded. It is a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. But what makes it worse is it makes it look like a lot of our soldiers lack self-control and ethics.

[cellardoor6]

At 10/15/06 04:27 AM, EnragedSephiroth wrote: I agree with what Nikolai concluded. It is a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. But what makes it worse is it makes it look like a lot of our soldiers lack self-control and ethics.

Remember that this took place in March of 03 during the invasion of Iraq. The Marines were in the middle of a WAR.

They had already fought, killed, and their buddies had been killed and disfigured before their eyes. They cannot be expected to have perfect "self-control and ethics" all the time. Especially in a situation where stopping for a moment and contemplating the course of action could mean death to themselves or their fellow soldiers/marines.

It took place in the middle of a fierce firefight between Marines and Iraqis. The British journalist was in the crossfire and had Iraqis all around him who were firing at the marines, in order for the marines to have complete restraint, they would have had to endanger themselves and compromise their mission, that is saying they even knew journalists were present...

If the marines were in the middle of a firefight where they themselves were in danger, do you think that they would intentionally take their effort away from fighting the Iraqis to shoot an innocent person just for the hell of it? I don't think so.

People don't want to emphathize with the Marines, they just want to jump to a conclusion to support further anti-American propaganda. Put yourself in their situation:

- You've just been getting shot at for the past 72 hours, you're tired, frustrated, emotional and angry at the same time. You've seen your friends get shredded and blown to bits, and you have no time to collect yourself you simple have to keep fighting to stay alive and accomplish your mission.

- You are engaged in a firefight where civilian vehicles are being used against you, you're receiving fire and you happen to see wounded (or pretend wounded) being carried into a minibus and all around that mini-bus are enemies shooting at you. Then you remember that you had already witnessed ambulances, press vehicles, and civilian vehicles used against you by Iraqis who do not follow the rules of war. You have witnessed the Iraqis exploit the hesitation and decency of American troops who are bound by rules of engagement and use non-military vehicles, civilian clothes, and other scandalous tactics to kill you and your fellow troops.

-The minibus that is surrounded by enemy soldiers begins to speed away, you had already witnessed or heard stories about enemies using civilian vehicles as get-away vehicles.

So do you shoot that vehicle that is speeding away from an area from which you were receiving fire? Or do you hesitate?

I would have shot that vehicle to shit, i'm sure ANY soldier/marine, from ANY country would have reacted the same way.

Or for the picky people out there, what if you did know that there were journalists in that vehicle, would you have taken your focus away from the enemies that were shooting at you to kill an innocent person for fun? And risk your life in the meantime by wasting ammo and time on a vehicle that you knew wasn't a threat?

I wouldn't have.

Therefore I think this issue is just another case of the casualties of war, but people are blowing it out of proportion because of their emotional reaction to it.

People are also taking the facts out of context to fortify their emotional reaction. For instance, the CORONER in the investigation who did the autopsy on Lloyd is not a battle-field forensics expert, he is just a coroner, but his opinion that the death of Lloyd was "an unlawful act" is not credible. He is a coroner and therefore only examined the dead body, but we all know that the dead body was killed by American fire, but we DON'T know whether or not it was intentional and a coroner whose expertise is not battle field analysis cannot come to an indepedent conclusion like that because if the act was intentional or not, he would still have the same dead body with holes in its head.

That would be like an autoshop engineer coming to the conclusion that the reason a womans car ran off the road was because she fell asleep at the wheel rather than the woman committed suicide. He would be over-stepping his area of expertise.

But people don't mention that inconvenient fact when their goal is to encriminate American troops RATHER than find the honest truth of the situation.