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At 10/9/06 03:00 AM, hokie wrote: O well he cant drop a nuke on the US, no means of delivery.

That really isn't know by anyone really...we know the tests have failed, but he only tested one Taepodong-2 (if any, can't remember). I wouldn't risk it ;)

Kim Jong Il wouldn't sacrifice the country he spent 9 years indoctrinating with his Extreme Communistic and isolationist philosophies. No, I don't think he'll use the nukes on anyone, or everyone will turn on him.

At 10/9/06 01:55 AM, Specusci wrote:

I'd be scared, and if the United States government was about to show some intelligence (HA!) I think now would be the time to address the North Korean threat seriously.

The US has been taking the threat as seriously as they are allowed to by the world community as well as internal political forces. Everytime the US has called for stern punishment towards the North Koreans, Democrats shout bloody murder and suggest that all the reasons that Kim Jung il does what he does is because of President Bush, ignoring history.

Then when the US shows slight hesitation, people shout that the US isn't doing enough. The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

There is basically nothing for the US to do. Because if the US were to 'talk' with North Korea, they Koreans would obviously just exploit any agreement to their advantage then break their commitments like they have many, many times.

Need I remind you all that North Korea agreed many times not to develope nuclear weapons. In fact, during the Clinton years, the US gave North Korea billions of dollars for them to build nuclear reactors for elecricity and then the minute the transaction was finished, North Korea broke its promises and used this money and technology to build nuclear weapons.

Today we have seen what is the result from "talking" with North Korea.

I think its time to give them an ultimatum and get everyone in the world onboard including the 2-faced Chinese!

Disarm or your country is completely cutoff from the rest of the world. No more food, fuel, money or anything from South Korea or China. No more assistance period.

If they do any more sable ratteling then it is time for military action, we can't sit back and wait for the North Koreans to refine and advance their nuclear technology to the point they have the ability to reach the US mainland. Kim Jung il has proven that he cannot be trusted and will continue his nuclear program if the US talks with him or not. Its time to take him the hell out.

At 10/9/06 04:52 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Then when the US shows slight hesitation, people shout that the US isn't doing enough. The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

Yes, and the outcry from the international community really did much to deter the war in Iraq. This, very seriously, could not possibly be an obstacle to the United States...

There is basically nothing for the US to do. Because if the US were to 'talk' with North Korea, they Koreans would obviously just exploit any agreement to their advantage then break their commitments like they have many, many times.

Who needs talk when you are American?

Need I remind you all that North Korea agreed many times not to develope nuclear weapons. In fact, during the Clinton years, the US gave North Korea billions of dollars for them to build nuclear reactors for elecricity and then the minute the transaction was finished, North Korea broke its promises and used this money and technology to build nuclear weapons.

I agree, North Korea has been awful about the Nuclear Weapons. However, despite liking Clinton, why on Earth...

Today we have seen what is the result from "talking" with North Korea.

Yes. Which is why this should be taken seriously now. I think you might be straying away from what I was saying, which was that the US needs to now act on this rather then sit around fighting unpopular wars and actually fight a popular one for the first time in over sixty years.

I think its time to give them an ultimatum and get everyone in the world onboard including the 2-faced Chinese!

Pretty much everyone is already onboard. The major powers of the world all reacted negatively...

If they do any more sable ratteling then it is time for military action, we can't sit back and wait for the North Koreans to refine and advance their nuclear technology to the point they have the ability to reach the US mainland. Kim Jung il has proven that he cannot be trusted and will continue his nuclear program if the US talks with him or not. Its time to take him the hell out.

I think you totally deviated from your initial statement by this point :P But I whole-heartedly agree with this.

Holy shit that's recent. That's it I'm moving to New Zealand with the sheep.

At 10/9/06 04:52 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: STUFF ..like ...Kim Jung il has proven that he cannot be trusted and will continue his nuclear program if the US talks with him or not. Its time to take him the hell out.

OFCW. It's Team America, World Polize - fo shizzle!

FAGS

At 10/9/06 05:10 AM, Specusci wrote: Yes, and the outcry from the international community really did much to deter the war in Iraq. This, very seriously, could not possibly be an obstacle to the United States...

The international community couldn't actually prevent the US from doing what it wants. But the Bush administration is trying to ease international relations by ceasing to do "whatever the fuck we want, Frenchie!"-or something to that effect.

Who needs talk when you are American?

Tell that to all the morons in the US or in allied countries that say that if the US talked to North Korea, that everything would be peachy!

Need I remind you all that North Korea agreed many times not to develope nuclear weapons. In fact, during the Clinton years, the US gave North Korea billions of dollars for them to build nuclear reactors for elecricity and then the minute the transaction was finished, North Korea broke its promises and used this money and technology to build nuclear weapons.

I agree, North Korea has been awful about the Nuclear Weapons. However, despite liking Clinton, why on Earth...

Why? Because Clinton was stupid enough to believe that you can reason with and deal with psychotic dicators like Kim Jung il. People thought that allowing the North Koreas to possess independent nuclear technology would cause them to forget about developing nuclear weapons and as we know this didn't work. Appealing to the dictator doesn't help, it only termporary causes the dictator to pretend like hes backind down, when hes really just secretely conintuing all along.

Today we have seen what is the result from "talking" with North Korea.

Yes. Which is why this should be taken seriously now. I think you might be straying away from what I was saying, which was that the US needs to now act on this rather then sit around fighting unpopular wars and actually fight a popular one for the first time in over sixty years.

You think that fighting North korea would be a popular war? Thats funny, considering the idea of invading Afghanistan was popular 5 years ago, and now even though it isn't Iraq, people are still claiming that going into Afghanistan was unjustified. Even if the world community was behind the US in going to war with north Korea, our allies would eventually stab us in the back like they always do and write it off as an act of imperialism for their history books 5 years from now.

I think its time to give them an ultimatum and get everyone in the world onboard including the 2-faced Chinese!

Pretty much everyone is already onboard. The major powers of the world all reacted negatively...

Yeah they reacted negatively but the last thing they will want is a war. To completely realistic, all of the European allies other than the UK would rather North Korea continue its nuclear weapons programs and just pretend to do something about it like give Kim Jung Il a letter that says "we strongly condemn your actions and wish for you to come back to six-party talks" which they have said literally hundreds of times! The ONLY country with the balls to do anything is the US, but there are many obsticles that still remain and even though I wish this wasn't true, we cannot just simply go to war with the current conditions, we'd need China to cooperate and to stop aiding the North Koreas. China definitely wouldn't do this and it might escalate further, South Korea, Japan and China would get involved pretty quickly.

I think we NEED to do something militarily if North Korea doesn't disarm. They are a completely rogue nation that is guilty of countless other crimes. But we have to be more cautious this time. It certainly wouldn't be a popular war because nothing the US ever does is popular no matter what.

At 10/9/06 06:03 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Why? Because Clinton was stupid enough to believe that you can reason with and deal with psychotic dicators like Kim Jung il. People thought that allowing the North Koreas to possess independent nuclear technology would cause them to forget about developing nuclear weapons and as we know this didn't work. Appealing to the dictator doesn't help, it only termporary causes the dictator to pretend like hes backind down, when hes really just secretely conintuing all along.

You say all dictators do this? I half-believe you. But I'll fully believe you when you provide some evidence of it not using N. Korea.

You think that fighting North korea would be a popular war? Thats funny, considering the idea of invading Afghanistan was popular 5 years ago, and now even though it isn't Iraq, people are still claiming that going into Afghanistan was unjustified. Even if the world community was behind the US in going to war with north Korea, our allies would eventually stab us in the back like they always do and write it off as an act of imperialism for their history books 5 years from now.

Our allies always stab us in the back? You're beginning to sound like a paranoid patriot who would prefer this nation be isolated from all others.

I think its time to give them an ultimatum and get everyone in the world onboard including the 2-faced Chinese!

Pretty much everyone is already onboard. The major powers of the world all reacted negatively...

The ONLY country with the balls to do anything is the US, but there are many obsticles that still remain and even though I wish this wasn't true, we cannot just simply go to war with the current conditions

Weren't Americans wondering a few years ago: "why are we invading Iraq, shouldn't we be more-worried about Afghanistan and settling N. Korea?" Indeed the U.S. did have the balls, to go pick on the little guy and ignore the one who's got a tiny amount of nuclear muscle. Don't tell me Iraq isn't the little guy, please. If they weren't the little guy, they would have had WMD's, and to tell me they did or that we have some justified reason for being there is just bogus. I'm not saying you're gonna tell me this, I'm just covering my ass before it happens, in case it does.

I think we NEED to do something militarily if North Korea doesn't disarm. They are a completely rogue nation that is guilty of countless other crimes. But we have to be more cautious this time. It certainly wouldn't be a popular war because nothing the US ever does is popular no matter what.

Agreed, but after Iraq, it might be more-difficult for the U.S. to get support from other nations, even from its own troops. Some troops have been stationed out in Iraq for years, others in the demilitarized zone between N. and S. Korea, and others in Afghanistan. Honestly it seems like the world's growing kinda exhausted from war.

Lets just hope that when the 2nd Korean War starts Bush isn't in office....

At 10/9/06 08:10 AM, MasterBlaster500 wrote: Lets just hope that when the 2nd Korean War starts Bush isn't in office....

As if thats realistic... :P

At 10/9/06 08:10 AM, MasterBlaster500 wrote: Lets just hope that when the 2nd Korean War starts Bush isn't in office....

What are ou talking about? Bush has been one of the more removed Presidents and Commanders in Chief in recent years. Its our spectacular General Staff that's doing such a bang up job over in Iraq and Afghanland.

Let's hope Peter Pace knows what he's doing.

At 10/9/06 04:52 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

The US has been taking the threat as seriously as they are allowed to by the world community as well as internal political forces. Everytime the US has called for stern punishment towards the North Koreans, Democrats shout bloody murder and suggest that all the reasons that Kim Jung il does what he does is because of President Bush, ignoring history.

There is basically nothing for the US to do. Because if the US were to 'talk' with North Korea, they Koreans would obviously just exploit any agreement to their advantage then break their commitments like they have many, many times.

The point is, and it is not only a Democratic voice (as I've been a lifelong Republican) that is critical of Bush in Korea. One of the first things Bush did in office was pull out of the Agreed Framework unilaterally and over the objections of one of our most reliable allies (S. Korea). Thus while Kim Jong-il is a VERY bad dictator, Bush has had a part in making the situation worse.

I think its time to give them an ultimatum and get everyone in the world onboard including the 2-faced Chinese!

Disarm or your country is completely cutoff from the rest of the world. No more food, fuel, money or anything from South Korea or China. No more assistance period.

Here is the problem with that. 1) N. Koreans are the Chinese equivelant of Mexicans in the US and Muslims in France. There is a significant problem on their border with illegal immigration, with an ethnic minority that has irredentist claims on Chinese property.

2) If we deny N. Koreans food we are only tempting a very nasty war. The people there are already suffering. The response to cutting off their food will not be to overthrow the regime and work with the international community to disarm. We will be facing a much worse threat. The N. Korean people want war. They have grown up hearing about how bad the US is and how much worse the rest of the world has it than N. Koreans. Propaganda such as this is common:
http://juchegirl.blogspot.com/
http://defendingtheflag.blogspot.com/
The short analysis of this is we cause a humanitarian crisis by cutting off their food and energy supply, the people and army could decide to go South entirely on their own. They have been primed for war for 50 years, and now they want to just do it.

If they do any more sable ratteling then it is time for military action, we can't sit back and wait for the North Koreans to refine and advance their nuclear technology to the point they have the ability to reach the US mainland. Kim Jung il has proven that he cannot be trusted and will continue his nuclear program if the US talks with him or not. Its time to take him the hell out.

There are several problems with this. The first is how do we take him out without tempting a larger war? We cannot handle a war the size of Korea, it will not be a cake walk like in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is possible we could suffer about 80% casualties before the first conventional shot is fired. (N. Korea has probably the most advanced Bio-weapons program in the world and the largest SpecOps force to carry out clandestine attacks.) Esitmates are that over a million people will die in the first few hours of war, due to the shelling of Seoul.

Then we need to get about 150,000 troops over there to engage the enemy. Where will we get them from? Be ready for the draft. We will probably have to pull out of Iraq, causing a MAJOR defeat for the US.

How about limited airstrikes? The problem with that will be the same as above: we could tempt a further war for an undertaking with little chance of success.

My long winded point is: there is no easy answers...

At 10/9/06 01:55 AM, Specusci wrote:

At 10/8/06 11:07 PM, Naoki09 wrote:

I think it more or less is confirmed now; US didn't detect seismic activity, but South Korea recorded a reading of 3.8

I've heard something about 4.5 by the US...

Japan is rumoured to be going off to investigate, the US is almost certain it happened.

Anyways, I'd hate to be in South Korea right now. Despite the effort of the governments to improve relations, the general populations still despise each other. Just a few days ago South Korean border gaurds shot 40 warning fires at a North Korean unit that went across the border.

I didn't get that impression at all during the 27 months I was stationed over in Korea. The 38th parallel is an artificial border that has divided families as well as the S. Koreans from several important sacred and nationalistic sites in the North. S. Koreans want reunification, however worry about how they will integrate people in the grips of a humanitarian crisis as well as severely economically crippled. There is no hatred for the N. Korean people, just a deep pain caused by the division.

On the N. Korean side the people have been told that the S. Korean people have things so much worse than the people in N. Korea. The people of the North live in a perversion of Plato's cave in which they actually believe that the whole world is in the grips of a massive famine. They want to go South to make things better...

Kim is erratic, I don't doubt he'd do something senseless or stupid. He has all kinds of defences against non-existant threats (IE, missile bases within range of Seoul to defend against possible South Korean invasion, which would probably never happen). If he does use it though, I doubt we'd erupt into a World War, at least not right away. This isn't like the cold war, nobody is really aiming nukes at anyone and not as tense.

Mind your history; Kim Il-Sung invade S. Korea on 25 June 1950 under the pretext of a fictitious S. Korean invasion of the North...

Hey anyone in the mood to suit up and start a gurilla war in NK? All we need to do is go in through china kidnap some starving children who are way too busy trying to find food to even bother listen to propaganda and.....

guys...

its time to kick the shit out of all those pesky korea-iran-communist-extremist lands that thinks they are shit...the world does not need another land , testing nuclear weapons, destroying our prechious terra.

we need to restore world order...peace and stability...thats what the world needs.

Co2 levels in the atmosphere are rising.
and pollution is a growing problem.

TAKE ACTION PEOPLE!

i think that england, russia, israel, china and japan should combine their military force, and restore peace and stability in countrys like:

libanon
somalia
north korea
gambia
sudan
iran

try imagening how it would be, a world with no disorder, no constant fear of terrorists,
no wars, only a calm, simple, governement, put together from the greatest leaders of the world, all democraticly voted.

it is time, gentlemen, it is time...

At 10/9/06 10:58 AM, Posessed wrote: try imagening how it would be, a world with no disorder, no constant fear of terrorists,
no wars, only a calm, simple, governement, put together from the greatest leaders of the world, all democraticly voted.

it is time, gentlemen, it is time...

You utopian motherfucker

At 10/9/06 10:58 AM, Posessed wrote: guys...

its time to kick the shit out of all those pesky korea-iran-communist-extremist lands that thinks they are shit...the world does not need another land , testing nuclear weapons, destroying our prechious terra.

I don't think I could follow a leader who can't spell...

we need to restore world order...peace and stability...thats what the world needs.

Isn't that a line from star wars episode 3?

Co2 levels in the atmosphere are rising.
and pollution is a growing problem.

What does that have to do with anything?!?

TAKE ACTION PEOPLE!

Umm...no..?

i think that england, russia, israel, china and japan should combine their military force, and restore peace and stability in countrys like:

libanon
somalia
north korea
gambia
sudan
iran

Yes, because that has worked so well in the past..(Afghanistan, Iraq, Suez, Vietnam, etc...)

try imagening how it would be, a world with no disorder, no constant fear of terrorists,
no wars, only a calm, simple, governement, put together from the greatest leaders of the world, all democraticly voted.

Are you secretly the emperor out of star wars?

it is time, gentlemen, it is time...

Time you were arrested before you hurt somebody...

At 10/9/06 10:58 AM, Posessed wrote: guys...


i think that england, russia, israel, china and japan should combine their military force, and restore peace and stability in countrys like:

libanon
somalia
north korea
gambia
sudan
iran

try imagening how it would be, a world with no disorder, no constant fear of terrorists,
no wars, only a calm, simple, governement, put together from the greatest leaders of the world, all democraticly voted.

Dude,

Seriously, we have that already. It's called the US trying to fix the mess created by Japan, Europe, Russia and China. Those countries have their problems because of the multi-national forces you talked about merging.

AAK

It's kinda ironic how NK wants to have working Nukes to defer a US invasion. Yet, Kim Jong pretty much signed an early death warrent by testing this thing out. All that NK is doing is making themselves more and more secluded from the world. Their only rattling their sabresand hurting themselves.

You know what the fact that the NK's are a threat to humanity might actually be something everyone on ng can actually agree with.

At 10/9/06 11:30 AM, PorkenStuff wrote: It's kinda ironic how NK wants to have working Nukes to defer a US invasion. Yet, Kim Jong pretty much signed an early death warrent by testing this thing out. All that NK is doing is making themselves more and more secluded from the world. Their only rattling their sabresand hurting themselves.

The thing is they are not banking on any serious threat from the US or anyone else. They kindof have us in a checkmate. What is the appropriate counter? Do we risk a war that will be very difficult to win? Are the American people ready to send another 150-200,000 troops onto a penninsula where we will loose many more troops than in Iraq and Afghanistan together? Will the American public support the draft that will become necessary? While China does not want a N. Korean nuclear arsenal, they also have serious concerns at starving the country and creating a humanitarian crisis on their southern border (causing a Mexican like influx of N. Korean immigrants) that they will have to deal with.

In short I think Kim Jong-Il will survive this act; after all there are more dire scenarios than there are sunny ones...

AAK

try imagening how it would be, a world with no disorder, no constant fear of terrorists,
no wars, only a calm, simple, governement, put together from the greatest leaders of the world, all democraticly voted.

it is time, gentlemen, it is time...

You dysutopian motherfucker. What ever happened to the idea of state sovereignty? What happened to respect for democracy? You are proposing a world state run by the US - "fixing" countries that go against the will of the US.

If the US and other countries (like Israel) have Nuclear Weapons (which, according the NPT, they should be getting rid of) why shouldn't North Korea? What qualifies you for nuclear weapons?

i fully support N. Korea. They rock. You all suck cock

I think it is a very difficult time and Hope that it is something the UN will be able to take care of, I may just be wishing, The threat is not so much with N.Korea in general even though they have a good knowledge of missile technology. the real threat is that they sell there weapons to places like IRAN,SERIA. the world does not need some terrorist who is ready to die himself to have a nuke.

At 10/9/06 01:22 PM, Vampire-Addict wrote: i fully support N. Korea. They rock. You all suck cock

lol an 80 year old just said that we all suck cock!

ha ha

Ohnoes, man they suck. Tis' not good. Team america was right.

At 10/9/06 05:10 AM, Specusci wrote:

At 10/9/06 04:52 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: If they do any more sable ratteling then it is time for military action, we can't sit back and wait for the North Koreans to refine and advance their nuclear technology to the point they have the ability to reach the US mainland. Kim Jung il has proven that he cannot be trusted and will continue his nuclear program if the US talks with him or not. Its time to take him the hell out.

I think you totally deviated from your initial statement by this point :P But I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I disagree. If we take out Kim, what happens to his nuclear weapons? At least with Kim in control, we know that his nuclear weapons are under control. If we topple his regime, those weapons would be lost, and anyone would be able to get them. Most likely, they will end up in the hands of nasty warlords or on the black market, which would be a bad situation.

We're really between a rock and a hard-place as The Mason's been saying. If war is waged on N. Korea it is likely we will have a draft. Troops are already exhausted from Afghanistan and Iraq, so how many of you are willing to go if you get a draft card in the mail?

At 10/9/06 04:40 PM, EnragedSephiroth wrote: We're really between a rock and a hard-place as The Mason's been saying. If war is waged on N. Korea it is likely we will have a draft. Troops are already exhausted from Afghanistan and Iraq, so how many of you are willing to go if you get a draft card in the mail?

I won't like it but if duty call i'll be a man and stand up for america. WEll at least if our current leadership were not in office.

At 10/9/06 04:48 PM, goozebump wrote:

At 10/9/06 04:40 PM, EnragedSephiroth wrote:

I won't like it but if duty call i'll be a man and stand up for america. WEll at least if our current leadership were not in office.

Not to sound too preachy, but when I entered the Air Force Clinton was in the Oval Office and had made a mess of the military. But I still went because I felt like it was my duty. The defense of S. Korea is a legitimate cause regardless of who is in office.

AAK