A "perfect" democracy is possible..

[NoNameProphet]

Not saying that leaving the choices up to the masses is a good idea, I like it in the fact that it would be interesting just to see what would actually happen ^_^.

Here's the idea. Democracy was said to be a method of government where 'power was given to the people' right? This system gives the people total control. The hard thing about getting it in would be that the government doesn't trust the people to make the right decisions for themselves. But maybe after a few mistakes we could learn to make proper choices as a collective... some funky group mentality like ants. Lol.

Anyway the system lies in MASSIVE internet poll networks. Everyone would have access to these polling services as terminals could be set up on streets so even bums have access. Basically the people could vote to decide on pretty much anything. Due to the massive number of choices, everyone would not vote on everything, just the people who know of the situations. Which would result in most having at least somewhat informed opinions.

At the terminals it would give information links for various points of view, and the choices themselves. If you wanted to find a new topic you could do a little search. Mr. Poor guy could click "Poverty" and vote on something that affects his own life.

I am not a master-engineer and I don't know everything there is to know about computer security so I'll just toss ideas around here. Maybe you could register and get a login ID at the terminal itself. Retinal scanners (yeah I've heard of their existance), fingerprinting, or even DNA logging could be a possibility (It'd need sterilization systems to avoid spread of disease when pricking your finger though =P).

To TRY and insure informed opinions, maybe you'd be required to check out a couple links, and a timer checks that you've at least read something, but it's not a perfect system in that sense. Maybe you'd have to write an opinion piece, take a quiz, I am not perfectly sure on the method, but something could be worked out, and whatever doesn't work can be replaced.

Anyway, this system would be TRUE democracy. I invented it when thinking about how everyone says true communism and democracy is impossible, so just to be the flip-side guy that I enjoy being sometimes, I wanted to think somethin' up.

It makes sense to me, and it makes me curious as to where the country's people would lead itself. Just an idea.

[NEMESiSZ]

A perfect democracy is called communism.

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 08:41 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: A perfect democracy is called communism.

Bleh. One liners are no fun. Can you show us how you arrived at that conclusion? Some explanation please?... You need to help people who may not have noticed or even had the time to consider such ideas. Myself included.

Try not to assume everyone knows and thinks what you do. This isn't an attack either, just a nice request. Lol. In order to give others something to debate and discuss we need points and things to make it easier. ^_^;

[Taxman2A]

At 3/19/03 08:53 PM, NoNameProphet wrote:

At 3/19/03 08:41 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: A perfect democracy is called communism.

Bleh. One liners are no fun. Can you show us how you arrived at that conclusion? Some explanation please?... You need to help people who may not have noticed or even had the time to consider such ideas. Myself included.

Try not to assume everyone knows and thinks what you do. This isn't an attack either, just a nice request. Lol. In order to give others something to debate and discuss we need points and things to make it easier. ^_^;

I, as well, would like some more information on how he arrived at that conclusion. Communism and Democracy are two completely different forms of government.

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 08:58 PM, Taxman2A wrote: I, as well, would like some more information on how he arrived at that conclusion. Communism and Democracy are two completely different forms of government.

Oh yeah, and while you're at it, or Tax you could too... Tell me if there's anything in that above system that you agree with and any points you can draw off it or something. I want to reflect my ideas off people for feedback so I can improve my though =D

[VasIndustries]

Its an interesting idea, and I know retinal and hand scanners are in affect today. Having the voting machine in the midst of the public would facilitate voting. There would be no excuse to not do it, except for extreme laziness. I don't think that your class should determine what you are elligible to vote for, but you were just mentioning that a person's class suggested certain polls I think.

I can't think of anything wrong with it off the top of my head. Almost everyone would cast their ballots, and it would be "one person, one vote", a Democracy.

There have been Democracies before though. I took anthropology a few years ago and we studied some people from South America who had a perfected democracy. They were small in size though, and everyone knew everyone else. Your idea may be applicable in a democracy of larger proportions.

[Evanauto]

At 3/19/03 08:41 PM, NEMESiSZ wrote: A perfect democracy is called communism.

Explain how

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 09:17 PM, VasIndustries wrote:

:I don't think that your class should determine what you are elligible to vote for, but you were just mentioning that a person's class suggested certain polls I think.

Yeah, exactly. No one is blocked out of any type of vote... it's just certain people would have a tendency to care about certain topics. There's too many topics for everyone to care about everything. You'd go nuts.

[Taxman2A]

Is this democracy such that no true leadership is needed from government? In that there would be no need for a governing body of officials, as the citizens themselves choose everything ?

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 09:42 PM, Taxman2A wrote: Is this democracy such that no true leadership is needed from government? In that there would be no need for a governing body of officials, as the citizens themselves choose everything ?

Yep. There might be a president elected just for the sake of having someone to travel to other countries and be a figurehead though.

Essentially this type of government could open the way for the development of idealogy guilds. People of common belief on a variety of topics might group together and form councils or leaders, and these naturally developed heads would provide insight and information to masses.

You might think that's similar to how it's done already but these groups and 'leaders' can't override the system though. Their only power is what the people give them. Sure it's open to some corruption due to who is able to get their message out the furthest... but at least it's alot more open.

[NoNameProphet]

Oops. Thought up a bit extra.

A big question though, is what voting topics would come out, and who decides what goes up. Maybe a certain vote topic request would have to be sent in a certain number of times before it becomes offical (depends on population)...

And as a note on another post. Yeah, this is a MASSIVE NUMBER True Democracy. It only works with hugenumbers, because that's the only way all topics could hope to be addressed. With small numbers, a single person being lazy, or a single biased opinion, or a single piece of propoganda can have too much effect.

[TheShrike]

The system would be exploited almost immeadiately.

Scenario 1-
Say you want the government to back off of the anti-trust lawsuit being filed against your software company. Or you want the tax laws concerning the luxury tax re-tooled to make your new cyber-home a little less pocket-pinching.
How? SIMPLE
Just pay your top geeks a huge bonus to go in through the back doors they programmed into this system, twiddle with select polls, mail a few letters to congressmen using citizen data gathered, and -TAA-DAA, you now have the blessing of the public to go on pillaging.

Ohh, this scenario doesn't even account for natural flaws in the system, a particularly crafty hacker(s) backed by a foreign government, rogue AI, and area 51 visitors.

Scenario 2-
System made by the government, for the people.
2a-
The programmers are forced/bribed into making the enire system controllable, then said programmers are 'terminated'.
2b-
Government has honest & pure intentions, programmers add in back doors for personal profit.
Political issues for sale, anyone? Foreign policy is currently going for 26 billion dollars, sub topics available for less...

Ohh, this scenario doesn't even account for natural flaws in the system, a particularly crafty hacker(s) backed by a foreign government, rogue AI, and area 51 visitors.

But...

I guess all of this is a tad bit pessimistic. The idea is good, and if it worked properly, I think we'd all be happier.
Only thing is that the cost of failure would be tremendous, and paid for with the loss of the public's opinion/rights.

The only crash-proof software is 'Hello World'. And that is only as good as the guy who wrote it.

[TheShrike]

Another problem would be that this would not eliminate bureaucrats.

And I think That it simply wouldn't work without the three branches in place.

[JMHX]

A perfect anything isn't possible in the corrupt world we're living in. I wouldn't shoot so high as democracy. Try for a perfect...trash pick up record. God, if there's an inch of snow on the ground here, they won't even come down the street!

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 10:36 PM, TheShrike wrote: The system would be exploited almost immeadiately.

Yeah. I think most people know all too well that those kind of technical problems that could be created in the system are almost unavoidable. This, like communism and democracy, is my view of an IDEAL.

IF a hack-proof system was created by honest and good people, it might stand a bit of a chance.

In order for any system to work perfectly, it would require the a constant supply of just and unselfish coordinators.... which is obviously a tall order. That's one of the things that helped doom communism, corrupt leaders.

Greed is the bane of human systems and human action.

[TheShrike]

At 3/19/03 10:57 PM, NoNameProphet wrote: IF a hack-proof system was created by honest and good people, it might stand a bit of a chance.

None such thing. Not even Linux or Apache (Newgrounds' web server, which crashed just a couple of hours ago).

Not even in concept.
One flaw, and it isn't perfect. It's a bit idealistic, this idea.
Hack-proof Bah.

In order for any system to work perfectly, it would require the a constant supply of just and unselfish coordinators.... which is obviously a tall order. That's one of the things that helped doom communism, corrupt leaders.

Agreed. Human nature is the true problem.

Greed is the bane of human systems and human action.

What can I say?

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 11:11 PM, TheShrike wrote: One flaw, and it isn't perfect. It's a bit idealistic, this idea.

When I say it's a "Perfect" democracy, I don't mean it in the sense that it works perfectly, just that it has the potential to be a representation of the entire population's belief, rather than just that of the most popular group's beliefs ((and most people might not agree to ALL of the beliefs of the most popular group. It's just an average, which is imperfect.)).

[TheShrike]

At 3/19/03 08:12 PM, NoNameProphet wrote: I am not a master-engineer and I don't know everything there is to know about computer security so I'll just toss ideas around here. Maybe you could register and get a login ID at the terminal itself. Retinal scanners (yeah I've heard of their existance), fingerprinting, or even DNA logging could be a possibility

Shall I call you NoName or just Prophet?

I know this quote was not an invitation to exploit that part of the argument, but that is what I intended.

I am not arguing the ideology at hand, simply pointing to flaws within the 'system'. I'm all for designing and discussing utopian societies.

[mysecondstar]

a democracy is basically a majority. the majority will always win. and also a democracy will not work in principle because of people wanting power. everyone wants power, and a true democracy will never be found.

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/19/03 11:32 PM, TheShrike wrote: Shall I call you NoName or just Prophet?

Prophet works fine for my ego, I mean, works fine.

:I'm all for designing and discussing utopian societies.

Yay. Me too.

[swayside]

democracy = two wolves and a sheep voting on the menu.

[PreacherJ]

At 3/19/03 08:12 PM, NoNameProphet wrote: Not saying that leaving the choices up to the masses is a good idea, I like it in the fact that it would be interesting just to see what would actually happen ^_^.

:etc...

Have you ever played Civilization III? This is a form of covernment called "Virtual Democracy". It's like the second best government in the game. Anywho, just thought I'd point out the reference.

[TheEvilOne]

At 3/20/03 12:24 AM, PreacherJ wrote: Have you ever played Civilization III? This is a form of covernment called "Virtual Democracy". It's like the second best government in the game. Anywho, just thought I'd point out the reference.

I just thought I'd point out that from my experience playing Civilization, the best form of government in the game is Communism. Just a thought...

[Taxman2A]

At 3/19/03 11:38 PM, mysecondstar wrote: a democracy is basically a majority. the majority will always win.

Not true... The wealthiest will beat out the majority time and time again in virtually any endeavor.

and also a democracy will not work in principle because of people wanting power. everyone wants power, and a true democracy will never be found.

Democracy doesn't prevent people from obtaining power. Communism prevents your average person from attaining power.

I do, however, agree that a TRUE democracy will never be found, mostly because of its drastic ineffeciency.

[Commander-K25]

The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. The problem is finding an incorruptible, benevolent dictator.

[PreacherJ]

At 3/20/03 12:26 AM, TheEvilOne wrote:

At 3/20/03 12:24 AM, PreacherJ wrote:

I just thought I'd point out that from my experience playing Civilization, the best form of government in the game is Communism. Just a thought...

I always preferred Technocracy, myself. Oh well. It's all about ruling your own country, right?

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/20/03 12:26 AM, TheEvilOne wrote:

At 3/20/03 12:24 AM, PreacherJ wrote: Have you ever played Civilization III? This is a form of covernment called "Virtual Democracy". It's like the second best government in the game. Anywho, just thought I'd point out the reference.

Never heard of the game, sounds funky. And yeah, the best system is obviously a dictatorship with a perfect leader, unfortunately God gave us free will so he won't get off his damn ass to help, Lol.

Anyway, getting late, going to get ready for sleep. Wish everyone I might notice that posts again luck in their life and reaching their goals =P... Anyway, rest.

*drifts off, satisfied that lots of people found his topics today ^_^*

[TheShrike]

At 3/20/03 12:35 AM, Commander-K25 wrote: The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. The problem is finding an incorruptible, benevolent dictator.

"benevolent dictatorship"... That's almost as good of an oxymoron as "military intelligence".

I don't agree. I think in a benevolent dictatorship, there would still be those underneath who thought they could do the job better. And if the guy doesn't have a huge success rate and the popularity to go with it, it breeds internal upheaval.

[Commander-K25]

At 3/20/03 01:01 AM, TheShrike wrote:
"benevolent dictatorship"... That's almost as good of an oxymoron as "military intelligence".

I don't agree. I think in a benevolent dictatorship, there would still be those underneath who thought they could do the job better. And if the guy doesn't have a huge success rate and the popularity to go with it, it breeds internal upheaval.

Hint: I am pointing out in my post that it there is a slim to none chance if that form of government coming about. Those with the means, ambition and mindset to become dictators are usually not "benevolent" people.

[JudgeDredd]

At 3/20/03 12:39 AM, PreacherJ wrote:
I always preferred Technocracy, myself.

good name for it. I thought this over during the 90's and came up with the name "Natural Progression" based on a voting system which evolves as fast as millions of ppl can apply their votes - including "soft voting" where time and interest in subject matter also adds weight to each users over-all mass and voting power - it's similar how NG works! After all, that's why i'm here ;O)_*