Liberty or Protection? Your Choice.

[SirXVII]

Frankly I'm getting a little angry watch programs on Fox News (btw I make it a habit not to watch just one news program) that have some of their anchors obviously have their noses shoved up the GOP anus. If this isn't clear to you then try watching Neil Cavuto. Neil Cavuto is abigger douche-bag than Bill O' Riley and I want to see O'Riley sent into the sun attached to a rocket.

Anyway, I can't specifically remember which program I was watching, but there was a guy on who blatently said this, "We live in an age where American's have a choice between Liberty or Protection, you cannot have both. You have to choose."

When I heard those words I thought insanity must be all the rage in politics.

We have personal Liberties set up by those guys in those wigs about 250 years ago to protect the government from harming us. Now we got loyal morons on there saying that we'll have to give up some personal liberties just so the government can protect us.

Yeah, that makes sense.

If our government cannot protect our nation without sacrificing personal liberties then they DO NOT DESERVE TO GOVERN US! End of freaking story!

I'm seeing it more and more now and its making me sick to live in this country. Not only are we violating the 4th Amendment (read the Patriot Act), but we're also violating international freakin law.

I've never read the Jeneva convention, but I did get a brief "in a nutshell" on the history of it. I DO KNOW that torture was a big no no on that document everyone signed after WWII and lo and behold those jackasses who hold power in the Executive Branch and Legislative Branch have signed on a law that allows torture.

...

Yes, it makes sense doesn't it? We capture an enemy and do unbelievable cruel and unusual punishment because we are under a threat. Makes sense. Oh well, more than half of the US public choose to ignore this as, "Whatever the government has to do to protect us I'm fine with it."

Well I'm sure as hell not. I am not signing over ANYTHING to ANYONE that gives them more power, but look at the heads of the Republican Party. Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and George oh great so Freakin Bush are holding on to that power. They are telling the American public with misiniformation that if we elect Democrats we are electing people who want to "lose".

Makes me kind of dizzy.

Not that the Democrats are any better because they have such radical viewpoints at the moment that its a no wonder that people actually voted for Bush in 2004.

It's getting worse.

Congress Passes a law that the President must abide by. A normal President who does not enjoy that law must appeal to the Courts. That's how our government works. With checks and balances.

Mr. Bush however goes a big step beyond what the frame of our Constitution is. He basically says, "That's unconstitutional" and refuses to go by it without appealing to the courts! Tell me thats not too much power.

History has shown us that in a time of war America gives up some Civil Liberties and has to balance itself after the war is over. Lincoln did it and Roosevelt did it. We in a war now that, esentially, is going to last for a LONG LONG time. So where is the balance? As a people we just cannot sit back and wait for the war to end so the government can balance itself back. We cannot because its been proven that this war is going to last longer than anyone can imagine. We need some balance now, not later.

I for one won't stand for it.

[AMFYOYO]

So....you're my hero!

[WarKirby]

I have a link that you may be interested in. It seems the incidents we are witnessing are part of a wider problem. America is slipping into Fascism

here

This is cause for grave concern I believe. I am not American, but America is so big now that it's problems affect the whole world.

WarKirby

[SirXVII]

At 10/2/06 08:17 PM, WarKirby wrote: I have a link that you may be interested in. It seems the incidents we are witnessing are part of a wider problem. America is slipping into Fascism

America is FAR FAR from Fascism.

Given the chance I'd say we'd reject the notion of it happening much less realizing that it is.

[WarKirby]

Why do you say that.

Torture of terrorism suspect has been approved

An unknown number of prisoners are being held indefinately without trial, legal representation or respect of human rights, in places like Guantanamo Bay, and 'Camp X-ray in afghanistan

There is overwhelming evidence that the 2004 elections were rigged

The American govt. spends fart more on military matters than is necessary to maintain it's superiority. Watch this. while simple, it does get it's point across.

Ultimately, rejection of the notion will help nothing. The ignorance of the general public is how things got to this state in the first place. Beter to acknowledge it and take action.

The government cannot stand against it's people if they are united. If enough people are made aware, public pressure will eventually force a change.

WarKirby

[Memorize]

At 10/2/06 10:46 PM, WarKirby wrote:

Torture of terrorism suspect has been approved

These methods have an opinion on them being torture. We're not whipping them, we're not pulling out their finger nails. The most we've done is make them stand up and keep standing without them being able to sit.

An unknown number of prisoners are being held indefinately without trial, legal representation or respect of human rights, in places like Guantanamo Bay, and 'Camp X-ray in afghanistan

Unfortunately, they're not American Citizens.

There is overwhelming evidence that the 2004 elections were rigged

You're an idiot.

The American govt. spends fart more on military matters than is necessary to maintain it's superiority. Watch this. while simple, it does get it's point across.

It's ALWAYS been like that.

[WarKirby]

At 10/2/06 11:08 PM, Integrity wrote:

There is overwhelming evidence that the 2004 elections were rigged

You're an idiot.

Now really, that's uncalled for.

Look here.
Or here.
This too.
And this.
The Conyers Report

But if you have evidence to the contrary, please feel free to share it.

WarKirby

[WarKirby]

At 10/2/06 11:42 PM, Grammer wrote:

Look here.

This says the elections could have put favor to John Kerry, because some people weren't allowed to vote. Never mind the fact that there could be a valid reason those people couldn't vote (illegal immigrants, felons, w/e), but w/e.

No. It says that exit polls indicated kerry had an insurmountable lead and would win by a rout. Exit polls have been proven many times to be more accurate than actual voting.

Your reasoning is invalid, because exit polls are taken immediately after voting, and as such only those who were eligible and who actually did vote were polled.

Did you even read that article?

WarKirby

[Memorize]

At 10/2/06 11:53 PM, WarKirby wrote:

No. It says that exit polls indicated kerry had an insurmountable lead and would win by a rout. Exit polls have been proven many times to be more accurate than actual voting.

Ironic, as these happen in every election.

[The-Bi99man]

At 10/2/06 07:58 PM, HeywoodJablome wrote: a bunch of awesomeness.

Damn. Thank you. That was great. The problem is that.... there is not a single politician in all of Washington who actually wants what's best for the people. Every single one of them are power-hungry pieces of shit, and we need to do away with the entire system and actually make it work.

The other problem, America is run by pussies. We don't need to take away rights to protect the people, we need to annihilate the threat. Enough beating around the bush and trying so goddamned hard to not offend anyone. Don't take away rights from everyone, only those who actually might pose a threat. RACIALLY PROFILING WILL SOLVE A LOT OF NATIONAL SECURITY PROBLEMS. "Randomly" searching people doesn't achieve anything, except a headache. Searching every motherfucker who comes through the airport with a robe and a turban and a name you can't pronounce on his passport... that's how you find the terrorists. We're at war with "radical islam". So keeping an eye on islamic people is what makes sense. But no.... we can't single them out. That's offensive. God forbid we offend our enemies. Now, before anyone even asks, I'm NOT saying that all islamic people are terrorists. I'm saying that most (north of 98% I'd be willing to bet) of the terrorists are islamic. If you're islamic and you live the US and you don't support terrorism, good for you, I commend you. But if you can't deal with being searched every time you go to an airport for the protection of the entire nation, then get the fuck out of my country.

[BrickMurus]

There is no choice between liberty or protection, to think otherwise is pure folly. We can not protect our country in such a way, yes we might save lives and landmarks, but we will have failed in protecting what makes our country what it is. To give up the ideals that our forefathers set down upon the founding of this nation would be the greatest threat it has faced. Think of our forefathers and their bravery, think of the immortal words of "Give me Liberty or give me death." They fought for liberty, they died for liberty, if they wanted protection, they would have just let things be, and all would have been for naught. So I say to you, my fellow Americans, though we have erred in the past, do we now, turn on what our nation was founded on, and become the despots that we wished to through down and bring tyranny and oppression back to this land.

[The-Bi99man]

At 10/3/06 12:18 AM, BrickMurus wrote:

There is no choice between liberty or protection, to think otherwise is pure folly. We can not protect our country in such a way, yes we might save lives and landmarks, but we will have failed in protecting what makes our country what it is. To give up the ideals that our forefathers set down upon the founding of this nation would be the greatest threat it has faced. Think of our forefathers and their bravery, think of the immortal words of "Give me Liberty or give me death." They fought for liberty, they died for liberty, if they wanted protection, they would have just let things be, and all would have been for naught. So I say to you, my fellow Americans, though we have erred in the past, do we now, turn on what our nation was founded on, and become the despots that we wished to through down and bring tyranny and oppression back to this land.

oh em gee. *cue standing ovation*. Props.

[JMHX]

You watched FOX.

[BrickMurus]

At 10/3/06 12:27 AM, The-Bi99man wrote: oh em gee. *cue standing ovation*. Props.

Thanks, just one of those moments. Actually, I had one of those moments just before this one, but Internet Explorer crashed, so that is actually the salvaged moment. I liked what I had better before, much more natural and eloquent.

[ImmoralLibertarian]

I can't believe no one's used that quote by the dead guy.

[Jose]

At 10/3/06 12:40 AM, Truthiness wrote: You watched FOX.

Where did you find that pic? I've never seen anything like that on the internet before.

[The-Bi99man]

At 10/3/06 12:45 AM, BrickMurus wrote:

At 10/3/06 12:27 AM, The-Bi99man wrote: oh em gee. *cue standing ovation*. Props.

Thanks, just one of those moments. Actually, I had one of those moments just before this one, but Internet Explorer crashed, so that is actually the salvaged moment. I liked what I had better before, much more natural and eloquent.

It was still quite eloquent. And BTW: fuck internet explorer.
Get Firefox.

[SirXVII]

At 10/2/06 11:53 PM, WarKirby wrote: Your reasoning is invalid, because exit polls are taken immediately after voting, and as such only those who were eligible and who actually did vote were polled.

Did you even read that article?

You got your sources from Rolling Stone and several internet atricles, some of which seem fishy to me.

Here's how were going to put it before you go way too off topic moron:
-The general majority elected President Bush. Even if he lost Ohio he still would of won so there.
-Every election in the US has some sort of vote fraud that pretty much has nothing to do with the canidates albit it helps them.
-Stop being such a pretentious idiot and actually go back two years ago and pay attention to the 2004 election.

Sheesh, he won by popular vote because people really hated Kerry more than Bush. That says something doesn't it?

[SirXVII]

At 10/3/06 12:40 AM, Truthiness wrote: You watched FOX.

Lawd I sures did. I ain't nothin by a red state moron who loves da views of everyone on Fox News.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[kramlack]

At 10/2/06 07:58 PM, SirXVII wrote: If our government cannot protect our nation without sacrificing personal liberties then they DO NOT DESERVE TO GOVERN US! End of freaking story!

SirXVII for president 2008?

[BeFell]

WAAAAH! WAAAAAAH! Those big meanies are taking my liberties WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

Some vague comment made by some obscure guy on a cable news show is certainly worth throwing a temper tantrum about.

Can anyone tell me what specific liberties I have lost in the last few years? Let's see, I have to wait a little longer in line at the airport and pretty soon I won't be able to go to Canada without a passport.

Holy shit! I say the time for rebellion is nigh, grab your guns my brothers for today we take back what is ours...

Oh yeah that's right, you hippies took my guns away, well so much for protecting myself from the government. I guess I'll just have to go get a job, a house a family and a gas guzzling car and enjoy a higher standard of living and more personal freedoms than 98% of the rest of the world.

Oh and by the way, Shut the fuck up! You'll feel better, I know I will.

[WarKirby]

At 10/3/06 10:45 AM, BeFell wrote: Can anyone tell me what specific liberties I have lost in the last few years? Let's see, I have to wait a little longer in line at the airport and pretty soon I won't be able to go to Canada without a passport.

You can be arrested and detained without actually having committed a crime

Your phones can be tapped, your bank details and your mail examined, without your permission. And this is legal

You can be deported to a foreign country, where you have no protection under the human rights act, and you can be tortured.

How's that for loss of freedom?

WarKirby

[SirXVII]

At 10/3/06 10:45 AM, BeFell wrote:
Oh and by the way, Shut the fuck up! You'll feel better, I know I will.

Oh just so you know the Patriot Act completely violates the 4th Amendment. If you are seriously thinking I was whining about the fact that I have to wait in an Airport longer then you are a bigger idiot.

The 4th Amendment, as stated is this: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What this basically mean, and I'll keep it short because I might sound like I'm whining to you or overload your brain, I'll choose the ladder.

Anyway, it means that Police and FBI when going into homes, tapping phones, looking through e-mails, looking through bank accounts, etc. Have to go before a judge and give a probable cause as to why they think they should get a warrent. Then with this warrent they have all rights to do what they want.

With the Patriot Act it now foregoes that whole process and they can now:
-Search records, tap phones, and look at bank accounts without a warrent.
-There is also a gag order on it so they cannot tell you that your bank account has been looked at.

Yes, this shouldn't be a concern at all because it only affects the terrorist. Yes, that's all it does. I'm a baby and you are the smartest man alive.

All I am saying in my original post is that this leads down a path that is extreamly dangerous and at war time we've been known to give up civil liberties then its been balanced. When will we get a balance of power back? Who knows.

Oh I was talking about protest, not revolution.

Moron.

[SirXVII]

At 10/3/06 12:54 AM, o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l wrote: I can't believe no one's used that quote by the dead guy.

You mean, "If Americans are willing to give up a little personal liberties for protection then they deserve neither."

Or something like that.

[stafffighter]

At 10/3/06 11:17 AM, SirXVII wrote:

At 10/3/06 12:54 AM, o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l wrote: I can't believe no one's used that quote by the dead guy.

It's in my sig. And if you're going to refrence someone like that at least use their name.
The issue here is not protection, as that can be done without draconian measures, but that of control. If there were methods of protection that didn't require people to be watched and tracked constantly, which is a form of control, then we'd have both.

[BeFell]

At 10/3/06 11:12 AM, WarKirby wrote:

At 10/3/06 10:45 AM, BeFell wrote: Can anyone tell me what specific liberties I have lost in the last few years? Let's see, I have to wait a little longer in line at the airport and pretty soon I won't be able to go to Canada without a passport.

You can be arrested and detained without actually having committed a crime

I'm pretty sure they could do that before, lots of innocent people get arrested and detained don't you ever watch CSI?

Your phones can be tapped, your bank details and your mail examined, without your permission. And this is legal

Once again this isn't a big dramatic change, in fact the only difference is they don't need a court order to do it in extreme cases. Perhaps you should actually research these laws you are so dead set against.

You can be deported to a foreign country, where you have no protection under the human rights act, and you can be tortured.

Sleep depervation is torture by God. It is my understanding that this doesn't apply to citizens.

How's that for loss of freedom?

There's no loss, they are just doing the same shit they've always been able to do.

At 10/3/06 11:13 AM, SirXVII wrote:

At 10/3/06 10:45 AM, BeFell wrote:
Oh and by the way, Shut the fuck up! You'll feel better, I know I will.

Oh just so you know the Patriot Act completely violates the 4th Amendment. If you are seriously thinking I was whining about the fact that I have to wait in an Airport longer then you are a bigger idiot.

How has the patriot act affected you personally? Do you think the government watches you when you shower or something?

The 4th Amendment, as stated is this: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Yes indeed when someone may be plotting to kill thousands of people in the next few hours I want talking to a judge to be the first thing on everybody's mind. If the government oversteps their bounds the accused can always fight it in court, then fight the ruling for that court then fight the ruling from the next court if need be. God damn this lack of freedoms.

What this basically mean, and I'll keep it short because I might sound like I'm whining to you or overload your brain, I'll choose the ladder.

Ladder, what ladder are you a roofer?

Anyway, it means that Police and FBI when going into homes, tapping phones, looking through e-mails, looking through bank accounts, etc. Have to go before a judge and give a probable cause as to why they think they should get a warrent. Then with this warrent they have all rights to do what they want.

What if the person they are observing has multiple phones or changes email addresses and bank accounts a lot, should they have to go throught the whole talking to a judge process each and every time?

With the Patriot Act it now foregoes that whole process and they can now:
-Search records, tap phones, and look at bank accounts without a warrent.
-There is also a gag order on it so they cannot tell you that your bank account has been looked at.

So they can't bring it up in court?

Yes, this shouldn't be a concern at all because it only affects the terrorist. Yes, that's all it does. I'm a baby and you are the smartest man alive.

I wouldn't say the smartest man alive just much smarter than you?

All I am saying in my original post is that this leads down a path that is extreamly dangerous and at war time we've been known to give up civil liberties then its been balanced. When will we get a balance of power back? Who knows.

When the war is over, just as you said in your original post.

Oh I was talking about protest, not revolution.

So your solution to the problem is to whine some more?

Moron.

MorMon, honestly your spelling is simply atrocious.

[SirXVII]

Obviously you are one of those people who could care less what happens really.

It's concerning how much power that gives the Federal government and you, like a majority of Americans, still don't see how it affects you or even if it does.

I am saying its concerning what they might be able to do with it and they are still, yes, still breaking the 4th Amendment. It boggles the mind that you can sit back and take it so nonchalant. It's still the government using bypasses and loopholes to blatently and obviously break the law and yet Americans sit back just wanting the government do their thing as long as it doesn't directly affect them.

I'm just saying how long is the masses going let this happen, even though it doesn't directly effect them, before its too late and it does.

Btw, way to miss the point.

[BeFell]

At 10/3/06 12:04 PM, SirXVII wrote: I am saying its concerning what they might be able to do with it and they are still, yes, still breaking the 4th Amendment. It boggles the mind that you can sit back and take it so nonchalant. It's still the government using bypasses and loopholes to blatently and obviously break the law and yet Americans sit back just wanting the government do their thing as long as it doesn't directly affect them.

I'm just saying how long is the masses going let this happen, even though it doesn't directly effect them, before its too late and it does.

Why don't you explain to me exactly what will go so terribly wrong if the government doesn't have to seek additional warrants everytime a suspect tries to evade them? What is your vision of the future if we stay on this grusome track? What other liberties do you forsee on the chopping block?

Btw, way to miss the point.

Is this another one of those ladder things?

[BrickMurus]

At 10/3/06 11:43 AM, BeFell wrote:

At 10/3/06 11:12 AM, WarKirby wrote: Moron.

MorMon, honestly your spelling is simply atrocious.

Ha, oh WarKirby, BeFell is not a moron, an asshole yes, very much so, but not a moron.

The truth of the matter is, we have no idea how far the government has gone, is going, and will go. The true extent of what they do most likely is not even known by the whole of government. Departments, divisions, directors, commandants, wardens, all have their own little way of doing things, and it is correct that there are things that happened before this. Just look at Japanese Internment camps in WWII. The truth of the matter is, that no matter what time, when America comes under threat, we lose our moral sights, and focus on safety, not those of others, but of ourselves. Therefore, when the liberties of a few, whether of our nation or another, are infringed upon, the majority turn aside or ineffectually condemn these offenses without taking action against them.

[SirXVII]

At 10/3/06 12:09 PM, BeFell wrote:
Is this another one of those ladder things?

Saying, "The Ladder" means basically two choices are given and picking the choice above.

Example: Either you are well rounded individual or a complete moron. I choose the ladder.

Get it?