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FlyingColours
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:05:59 Reply

At 3/31/13 08:56 PM, PMMurphy wrote:
At 3/31/13 08:10 PM, FlyingColours wrote:
have three ways for the AI to cheat (one round -> 2/3, 2/3->3/5, and the paper-scissors hybrid) and if I made it impossible to win, rage reviews will ensue...

My ai i programmed for tic tac toe cannot be beaten.

But if you know how to play it also cannot win.

Should i program a gui for it and upload it to newgrounds for people to rage over?

As great an idea as that is, Mint has already done that.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:10:18 Reply

ahhhhh

Did you look at his source code?

I hard-coded the fuck out of my solution to tic-tac-toe.

I literally saved datastructures of all the losses play by play and single handedly solved all the problems my initial design couldn't solve.

I used some technique i read in a technical paper.
Link me to his project? I wnna play against it and mine at the same time and see if we pick different locations.

Also did he start with the center location only? Or does his ai pick random locations based on tactical decisions?

In other words.

Does he tell it to pick center then start running his ai?

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:14:35 Reply

His ai isn't unbeatable.

I beat it.

he didn't solve one off the wall strategy you can do when you go first.

So he didn't fully test it.

But hes prolly not a perfectionist like me.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:16:53 Reply

I used some technique i read in a technical paper.

Could you link to that? It would probably make an interesting read. Thanks!

Link me to his project? I wnna play against it and mine at the same time and see if we pick different locations.

Um, is it that the link didn't show up for you? It's here.

Also did he start with the center location only? Or does his ai pick random locations based on tactical decisions?

In other words.

Does he tell it to pick center then start running his ai?

The player always comes first in his game.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:23:33 Reply

The paper's aren't free. i get them for free because im a student at a university.

But if you want to read about it its the technical papers that describe The program called anaconda for checkers.

I used the concept of how they analyzed boards without the complex programming and it basically solved 80% of the problems i had to solve.

Then i had no clue what to do afterwards.

I programmed my ai a long time ago. So i could prolly do it better now.

One of the seniors at my department programmed a flawless tic-tac-toe ai in like 40 or 50 lines of code.

Mine is like 300.

Idk how he did it.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:36:40 Reply

THere are actually quite a few strategies you can do that will win everytime you do it.

I'd say a total of 4 strategies that will win no matter what.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 21:45:16 Reply

At 3/31/13 09:36 PM, PMMurphy wrote: THere are actually quite a few strategies you can do that will win everytime you do it.

I'd say a total of 4 strategies that will win no matter what.

I take that back.

Every single two-way strategy there is can beat this program.

Just keep playing it over and over again until it falls for it. The locations are randomly picked hardcoded solutions because the developer knows how to play tic-tac-toe. The ai doesn't solve the problem at all. Because the answers fluctaute in no actual pattern.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:04:48 Reply

At 3/31/13 09:45 PM, PMMurphy wrote:
At 3/31/13 09:36 PM, PMMurphy wrote: THere are actually quite a few strategies you can do that will win everytime you do it.

I'd say a total of 4 strategies that will win no matter what.
I take that back.

Every single two-way strategy there is can beat this program.

Just keep playing it over and over again until it falls for it. The locations are randomly picked hardcoded solutions because the developer knows how to play tic-tac-toe. The ai doesn't solve the problem at all. Because the answers fluctaute in no actual pattern.

tic tac toe is easy when you go first, pick a corner, if they pick an adjacent corner you pick the opposite corner that you started with. the rest will be all blocks to victory.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:12:11 Reply

You obviously havn't solved tic-tac-toe fully and made it so its impossible to lose no matter who goes first or who does what.

My ai in tic-tac-toe cannot simply be beaten. No matter what.

Idc what strategy you use. I solved everything.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:20:33 Reply

At 3/31/13 10:12 PM, PMMurphy wrote: You obviously havn't solved tic-tac-toe fully and made it so its impossible to lose no matter who goes first or who does what.

If I go first it's impossible to lose, unless you count obviously bad moves.

My AI in tic-tac-toe cannot simply be beaten. No matter what.

that's not really difficult, especially if the AI goes first. tic tac toe is an incredibly simple game.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:27:42 Reply

At 3/31/13 10:20 PM, GeoKureli wrote:
At 3/31/13 10:12 PM, PMMurphy wrote: You obviously havn't solved tic-tac-toe fully and made it so its impossible to lose no matter who goes first or who does what.
If I go first it's impossible to lose, unless you count obviously bad moves.
My AI in tic-tac-toe cannot simply be beaten. No matter what.
that's not really difficult, especially if the AI goes first. tic tac toe is an incredibly simple game.

You can go first you can't beat it.

I simulated every possible game scenario ever and solved everything.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:31:55 Reply

Tic-tac-toe may be a more simplair version of other games. But there are many strategies you have to solve in order to make an ai that cannot be beaten.

There are a total of like 10 or 12 different variations of two way problems.

That yea, if you solve the hard-coded way is easy.

But thats bad programming.

You gotta find algorithms that solve anything thrown at you and it should work on nxn sized boards where n is any given number from 0 to infinity.

My code doesn't do that.

Hard-coding solutions to ai is bad programming and bad ai.

I hard-coded my solutions simply because i just wanted to have it done. Many people solve tic-tac-toe over and over again when practicing artificial intelligence because its easy software to recreate because the game IS simple.

Chess ai and checkers ai, most of it is hardcoded and not really ai.

There are tons of ai you would consider "good" but in reality its terrible.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:33:48 Reply

At 3/31/13 08:10 PM, FlyingColours wrote: Sorry! :P

'twas a joke :P

I don't think the message was the only reason you figured it out, though... Perhaps you've seen my post in the lounge about making an April Fool's Day game? Perhaps you know I don't have the ability to make an online multiplayer game anyway (even Mattster's Drawing Grounds isn't real-time)?

Nope, it really was the first message that gave it away for me. I never saw a post, and I didn't know you didn't know how to connect a Flash-whatever to a server-side script. It's quite easy, believe it or not. Just the goddamn security restrictions screw everything up most of the time. AIR solves this, mostly. Thank god.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 22:48:54 Reply

At 3/31/13 10:33 PM, egg82 wrote:
I don't think the message was the only reason you figured it out, though... Perhaps you've seen my post in the lounge about making an April Fool's Day game? Perhaps you know I don't have the ability to make an online multiplayer game anyway (even Mattster's Drawing Grounds isn't real-time)?
Nope, it really was the first message that gave it away for me. I never saw a post, and I didn't know you didn't know how to connect a Flash-whatever to a server-side script. It's quite easy, believe it or not. Just the goddamn security restrictions screw everything up most of the time. AIR solves this, mostly. Thank god.

It may be easy for you, but my PHP skills don't go much further than echo. I can't even make a session (though I'm gonna have to learn to do that soon).

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 23:06:35 Reply

At 3/31/13 10:48 PM, FlyingColours wrote: It may be easy for you, but my PHP skills don't go much further than echo. I can't even make a session (though I'm gonna have to learn to do that soon).

doesn't need to be PHP, anything that gives back text is fine. Hell, you could even completely toss a web server in favor of something else that just shoots back a few bytes through socket connections.

Though if you wanted to go the PHP route, haz a codez.

it's just a couple quick classes dealing with a bit of simple security stuffs, but you should be able to get the idea of OOP PHP from that.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 23:10:34 Reply

I have no idea what happens when you program the server side script with flash or whatever.

I have avery minimal idea of what that even means. I don't really read papers on servers or networking. I basically focus in artificial intelligence.

But i am highly curious.

Will you elaborate and teach me some background knowledge?

Do you know why you get these security restrictions when you try to attach to a server (are you doing it from client side?)

If your doing it from client side how does that interfere with security? Is it the server's secrurity that causes problems?

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 23:32:24 Reply

At 3/31/13 11:10 PM, PMMurphy wrote: I have no idea what happens when you program the server side script with flash or whatever.

I have avery minimal idea of what that even means. I don't really read papers on servers or networking. I basically focus in artificial intelligence.

But i am highly curious.

Will you elaborate and teach me some background knowledge?

Sure. Don't call me an expert or anything, because I sure as hell am not (and may be totally wrong), but i'll share what i've learned.

Do you know why you get these security restrictions when you try to attach to a server (are you doing it from client side?)

The reason for security restrictions is to make sure the client doesn't get their system bricked by an exploit. AS3 very, very much has that power. With AS3 (and AIR in particular) we can access pretty much everything on the system. In order to access anything, however, the program itself first needs permission from the system's admin(s). I personally have discovered a way to circumvent the Adobe installer for AIR applications, but if your system's even slightly secure it'll ask you if you really want to open the exe you downloaded.

Security restrictions also protect servers from unauthorized access. It's impossible to get information from a site in AS3 without first loading their security policy XML file. In some ways, this is nice, in others it's just ridiculous. Security's so tight with the XML thing that i'm 99% sure you can't even load HTTP headers without it.

If your doing it from client side how does that interfere with security? Is it the server's secrurity that causes problems?

After you get beyond the CML business it's just a standard client/server relationship. Send/receive data from specified sockets, maybe attempt to account for latency if you like pain.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 23:33:50 Reply

At 3/31/13 11:06 PM, egg82 wrote:
At 3/31/13 10:48 PM, FlyingColours wrote: It may be easy for you, but my PHP skills don't go much further than echo. I can't even make a session (though I'm gonna have to learn to do that soon).
doesn't need to be PHP, anything that gives back text is fine. Hell, you could even completely toss a web server in favor of something else that just shoots back a few bytes through socket connections.

Though if you wanted to go the PHP route, haz a codez.

it's just a couple quick classes dealing with a bit of simple security stuffs, but you should be able to get the idea of OOP PHP from that.

Thanks, but we haven't really got into the networking unit at school yet, and I don't even know what socket connections are, and how they shoot back bytes... Once I have, and once I know enough PHP, I'll look back at your zip again. Thanks.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-03-31 23:51:24 Reply

It doesn't make any logical sense to me. If as3 is a known scripting language and scripting language require internet connections and the ability to latch on the networks and servers. Why the hell would it get blocked?

What was created first. AS3 or the server's security?

If the security was created first i can underestand why it would flag as3 but also, why isn't there an easy approach to get around this?

I understand people can create malicious code inside as3 and scripting languages but the big question is why didn't some smart guy handle this problem already?

I mean they have a general formula for catching a pokemon. if they have that why do we have this problem?

Makes no sense.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 00:31:26 Reply

At 3/31/13 11:51 PM, PMMurphy wrote: It doesn't make any logical sense to me. If as3 is a known scripting language and scripting language require internet connections and the ability to latch on the networks and servers. Why the hell would it get blocked?

A programming language doesn't have explicit requirements to handle network operations. The ability to handle such operations in Flash came with AS2 and was vastly improved with AS3, finally touching up on a few last things with AIR.

What was created first. AS3 or the server's security?

You misunderstand. The developers of Flash decided it would be a good idea to restrict the ever-living hell out of anything that could potentially damage your computer. File operations, network access, OS and even basic window changes were restricted to the point of almost nonexistent in AS2, with very, very slightly more relaxed security in AS3.

Basically your program needs to load in an XML file (or an XML stream) from the server you're attempting to connect to before you can do anything with the server in question. That's all client-side stuff.

why isn't there an easy approach to get around this?

because if there was, the entire point of all the current security restrictions in place would be completely lost.

I understand people can create malicious code inside as3 and scripting languages but the big question is why didn't some smart guy handle this problem already?

they can, but thanks to security restrictions, if they do all they can affect is their own client.
also, what do you mean by "why didn't some smart guy handle this problem already?" - what problem are you referring to, and what "smart guy" do you propose is going to handle it?

I mean they have a general formula for catching a pokemon. if they have that why do we have this problem?

Makes no sense.

I vote pikachu.
Though i'm not sure what pokemon has to do with networking.. ?

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 00:36:30 Reply

creating general formulas to pointless things that mean absolutely nothing when that time could be spent else where has everything to do with potential research in a problem that is complicated.

Smart guy would be some random smart guy who knows networking.

Also all these problems sound like difficult tasks research should be able to handle. Developers who make a framework to the point you can't use its 100% full potential because its "hazardaus" is like saying the programmers who use as3 are too dense to understand the reprocousions for what they do.

If you do research and understand your language these problems shouldn't happen.

For instance in java there is something that safe checks your files for you automatically programmed into the language. But if you want... You can call the reflect package and completely override their safe checks call then you can type this @SuppressWarnings("unchecked").

Not saying as3 should be like java. But i feel like the developers should treat their programmers like they have brains and know how to handle hazerdous stuff if they want to.

Just my 2 cents.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 01:00:58 Reply

At 4/1/13 12:36 AM, PMMurphy wrote: creating general formulas to pointless things that mean absolutely nothing when that time could be spent else where has everything to do with potential research in a problem that is complicated.

Smart guy would be some random smart guy who knows networking.

Why would somebody want to do that? I'm not sure I actually understand your question.

Also all these problems sound like difficult tasks research should be able to handle. Developers who make a framework to the point you can't use its 100% full potential because its "hazardaus" is like saying the programmers who use as3 are too dense to understand the reprocousions for what they do.

If you do research and understand your language these problems shouldn't happen.

The thing you forget is that there are people who intentionally develop applications to harm your computer or your experience with your computer. I could, if I wanted to, create an AIR application (packaged into a nice litle exe) that would completely lock you out of your computer while it deletes all your files. Mint and I collectively discovered this. I showed him AIR, he developed an application that would lock everything until you pressed a "safe key", I found a way to bypass the Adobe installer, and permanently deleting local files is a cakewalk.

That and the whole XML thing is what Adobe is trying to prevent. Nobody wants to open an exe and find out that within a few milliseconds their entire system folder was removed.

For instance in java there is something that safe checks your files for you automatically programmed into the language. But if you want... You can call the reflect package and completely override their safe checks call then you can type this @SuppressWarnings("unchecked").

That just tells the compiler to not show you small errors and other warnings. Doesn't mean they're not there, it just means you no longer know about them.

Not saying as3 should be like java. But i feel like the developers should treat their programmers like they have brains and know how to handle hazerdous stuff if they want to.

AS3 is actually a lot like Java in quite a few ways. My Java teacher, for example, knew most of the AS3 code I wrote (just a quick example class extending Sprite) because it simply looked very similar.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 01:05:45 Reply

Ok im obviously not explaining things on a clear enough level.

1) If you can get around a server's protection without some serious hacking what is stoping some random fuck who has google from programming the virus and doing the same thing.

2) What if your an expert in cybersecurity and know for a fact your software can handle any malicious attack and want to override all the "problems" they programmed to pop up. At some point all these "problems" didn't exsist. They are meerely just programmed popups and gui interfaces created by exceptions being thrown and passed through stacks.

3) If you know programming. These "problems" are not problems and don't exsist. But you know YOUR CODE works.

4) Someone can program servers and cybersecurity better then someone else. Not everyone has top of the edge shit the meere fact you can find a way to still latch on to a server without much hastle (as in your capable of doing it without serious hacking) Means the protection is pretty fucking shitty to begin with.

I didn't know i had to level this shit out.

Those popups and shits are just execption handles being passed through stacks from some underlying layer. If you understand all the stats and what that execption handle means. THose problems are not problems. Because you know how to fix them without the language doing it for you.

The language is meerly a tool to get the job done. It is not the do all by all say.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 01:23:59 Reply

At 4/1/13 01:05 AM, PMMurphy wrote: 1) If you can get around a server's protection without some serious hacking what is stoping some random fuck who has google from programming the virus and doing the same thing.

Oh, are we not talking about AS3 specifically, then? Ohhh, that makes more sense.
What's stopping them? Their lack of knowledge. If you know how to get into a system then you can get into a system. If you don't, you can't. Security's pretty black and white on the basic, beginner level.

If you can get into a server without hacking, then you need to contact that server's admin ASAP because they sure as hell aren't doing their job. For everything else, there's pen-testers. And Mastercard. That, too.

2) What if your an expert in cybersecurity and know for a fact your software can handle any malicious attack and want to override all the "problems" they programmed to pop up. At some point all these "problems" didn't exsist. They are meerely just programmed popups and gui interfaces created by exceptions being thrown and passed through stacks.

If you're a security expert, then you know for a fact that anything and everything you make isn't completely hack-proof. The difference between you and the client is that the client doesn't know this.
Also, if you were a system admin you wouldn't be using a language like AS3 to run your server on.

For the sake of argument, let's say you want to make a server with AS3 and use it for commercial means (please, for the love of all that is holy, don't do that)
Then you would need to account for all the policy file stuff, yeah. There's probably a way around it, but you'd most likely need to create a custom Flash client on everyone's computer specifically tailored to bypass security restrictions.

3) If you know programming. These "problems" are not problems and don't exsist. But you know YOUR CODE works.

They're annoyances, to be sure. Necessary ones, but annoyances nonetheless. It has nothing to do with your code, but how the language your using works.

4) Someone can program servers and cybersecurity better then someone else. Not everyone has top of the edge shit the meere fact you can find a way to still latch on to a server without much hastle (as in your capable of doing it without serious hacking) Means the protection is pretty fucking shitty to begin with.

I'd have to agree with that, and again I would contact the sysadmin immediately to tell them they're not doing what they're being paid to do.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 01:33:56 Reply

Your arguements don't really have any solid information to stand by.

Your new argument is.

"oh shit better tell the guy who programmed it to do better!"

Instead of "hey maybe as3 could be a better language".

as3 only affects as3. As3 does not affect the security in the server.

So if as3 itself. is the one blocking and throwing exceptions for someone ELSES problem. Why is it doing it?

Its because as3 isn't intended for professional use most likely.

I know nothing about the language. I don't know why its used.

But from your last statement its obviously not a very powerful language and shouldn't be taken very seriously.

So ih ave no clue why your nolonger defending the language and what your purpose of the arguement even is.

Just kinda seems like your arguing to arguing because you want to be "smarter" then me.

But its newgrounds. I should of expected that.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 01:49:14 Reply

At 4/1/13 01:33 AM, PMMurphy wrote: Your arguements don't really have any solid information to stand by.

Your new argument is.

Huh? What argument? We're arguing? About what?
I'm confused o.o'

You asked for information and clarification and I did my best to answer your questions.

"oh shit better tell the guy who programmed it to do better!"

When it comes to servers, that's usually the way of things.

Instead of "hey maybe as3 could be a better language".

Oh, it very much could be. Operator overloading would be pretty damn useful, and maybe the ability to use multiple cores.
It's pretty powerful as-is. I suppose if I had to argue something, that would be it.

as3 only affects as3. As3 does not affect the security in the server.

That's the idea behind the whole XML thing, anyway.

So if as3 itself. is the one blocking and throwing exceptions for someone ELSES problem. Why is it doing it?

There's no problem, it's just some security hoops you need to jump through.

Its because as3 isn't intended for professional use most likely.

Every language has its uses ;)

I know nothing about the language. I don't know why its used.

It was originally created for animators, specifically designed to get animations and a simple button or two on the screen quickly. It's evolved from that to a fairly robust cross-platform game development tool.

But from your last statement its obviously not a very powerful language and shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Again, like every language, it has its uses and its pitfalls.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 02:08:56 Reply

So with some googling i found a stackoverflow topic.

With some answers to actionscript 3 and asking questions about server side programming.

http://haxe.org/

Does everything actionscript 3 multiplatforms and serverside and it performs similair to how as3 runs.

If they can do server side scripting so easily why is it such a HUGE PROBLEM for as3?

Are you telling me that the problems that are so huge in as3 have to be in every single other language every existed because that the rule of thumb of programming?

Or is it quite possible that the people who developed haxe know a better implementation to server side scripting in comparison to as3.

I will go with haxe knows a better implementation.

There were more posts about as3 and server side scripting. There is actually software already created for people who want to use as3 in server sides scripting.

I bet the guy who made that server knows a clean and smart way of handling all those security risks.

Oh wait by your logic thats impossible. Those problems will forever exist.

PMMurphy
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 02:17:16 Reply

well i just learned actionscript is a open-source language.

That answers all my questions.

Rustygames
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 09:23:25 Reply

At 4/1/13 02:17 AM, PMMurphy wrote: well i just learned actionscript is a open-source language.

That answers all my questions.

What? Is this real life?

Also I was too lazy to read everything (sorry) but is anyone suggesting network comms are restricted in the flash player for web? Because that's obviously not true


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egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-04-01 10:42:08 Reply

At 4/1/13 02:17 AM, PMMurphy wrote: well i just learned actionscript is a open-source language.

... wait, what?
I must see this for myself, because I have sooooo many questions about the regular AS3 code (globalplayer.swc) that I want answers to.

At 4/1/13 09:23 AM, Rustygames wrote: Also I was too lazy to read everything (sorry) but is anyone suggesting network comms are restricted in the flash player for web? Because that's obviously not true

I am.
Well, kinda.

I'm saying until you jump through a set of security hoops, network operations are restricted to the point of almost nonexistent.

Which is completely true :P


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