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Innermike
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 13:47:24 Reply

So have the game jams just stopped then or what?


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egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 13:49:59 Reply

At 2/7/13 01:47 PM, Innermike wrote: So have the game jams just stopped then or what?

i've actually been thinking that, myself. Since the last jam, learned OOP, (I like to think) most of AS3, a couple frameworks and engines, and have built a few libraries of my own. I'm ready to kick some ass and take some names.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 14:37:10 Reply

At 2/7/13 01:47 PM, Innermike wrote: So have the game jams just stopped then or what?

sort of.... its just tough to run them when theres not someone dedicated to moderating the jam. It was supposed to be in my realm of workload, but over time my priorities have started to revolve around web development/design rather than community initiatives. I hope once the mobile related things are wrapped up to a point where they are on cruise control i can dive back into collabz and stuff. I have the ghost busters song stuck in my head now.


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Glaiel-Gamer
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 15:00:33 Reply

At 2/7/13 02:37 PM, Luis wrote:
At 2/7/13 01:47 PM, Innermike wrote: So have the game jams just stopped then or what?
sort of.... its just tough to run them when theres not someone dedicated to moderating the jam. It was supposed to be in my realm of workload, but over time my priorities have started to revolve around web development/design rather than community initiatives. I hope once the mobile related things are wrapped up to a point where they are on cruise control i can dive back into collabz and stuff. I have the ghost busters song stuck in my head now.

If one was run where it was just a theme given and no registration and people are responsible for making their own teams and stuff, what type of extra mod work for that would there be?

OmarShehata
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 15:47:06 Reply

At 2/7/13 03:00 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: If one was run where it was just a theme given and no registration and people are responsible for making their own teams and stuff, what type of extra mod work for that would there be?

Yeah, it could totally be a community run contest. Just as long as winners are not chosen by portal score.

Although I have to say, I really did love the jams where teams were randomly chosen. It felt a lot more official in that you only got to start getting in contact with your teammates as the 72 hours were counting down. And it was nice to step out of your comfort zone to work with people either below or above your skill level.

What does everyone else think of random of teams?

egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:11:20 Reply

At 2/7/13 03:47 PM, 4urentertainment wrote: What does everyone else think of random of teams?

sure, why not?

my biggest concern is people not participating or wanting to participate.
think getting the word out may be a problem?


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Glaiel-Gamer
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:13:12 Reply

At 2/7/13 03:47 PM, 4urentertainment wrote:
At 2/7/13 03:00 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: If one was run where it was just a theme given and no registration and people are responsible for making their own teams and stuff, what type of extra mod work for that would there be?
Yeah, it could totally be a community run contest. Just as long as winners are not chosen by portal score.

how about just not having it as a competition with a winner? Everyone is a winner

egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:16:47 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:13 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: how about just not having it as a competition with a winner? Everyone is a winner

that would mean fewer participants. As a programmer, you should know that time is money. You can't expect people to spend 72 hours creating something as best they can for free. They could be spending that time making something shite (compared to what they can do) and selling it later.


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SantoNinoDeCebu
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:21:19 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:16 PM, egg82 wrote:
At 2/7/13 04:13 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: how about just not having it as a competition with a winner? Everyone is a winner
that would mean fewer participants. As a programmer, you should know that time is money. You can't expect people to spend 72 hours creating something as best they can for free. They could be spending that time making something shite (compared to what they can do) and selling it later.

If you're doing a game jam for money.. you're doing it wrong! That's not what they are about at all! potential exposure on the front page for a game jam game should be enough incentive I would've thought. I was well chuffed when my entries where on there!

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:21:41 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:11 PM, egg82 wrote: my biggest concern is people not participating or wanting to participate.
think getting the word out may be a problem?

I don't think getting word out would be a problem. It'd be the same as every time, Tom would post about it and someone goes around spamming flash forums about it. (I used to do that :( )

At 2/7/13 04:13 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: how about just not having it as a competition with a winner? Everyone is a winner

Actually, that's much better. A game jam is an event, not a competition. There could just be incentives like how Ludum Dare does, "Most Innovative Game", "Best Sound", "Game with most cats in it".

egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:23:01 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:21 PM, SantoNinoDeCebu wrote: If you're doing a game jam for money.. you're doing it wrong! That's not what they are about at all! potential exposure on the front page for a game jam game should be enough incentive I would've thought. I was well chuffed when my entries where on there!

i'm not saying I am, but you have to look at things from multiple points of view when planning.


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Glaiel-Gamer
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:28:37 Reply

doing a game for a competition solely for money is stupid

It was dumb when sponsor portals did it back in the day, they would pay like $5k out in prize money, and get hundreds of free games made for them from kids who didn't know that it was a terrible ripoff to spend months working on a game in the hopes of winning a prize, and getting nothing out of it, when they still make quality games that get hundreds of thousands of visitors coming to the portals site.

a jam is an event not a competition, treating it like a competition is bad, you aren't working for free cause you can still slap ads in your game or seek out a sponsorship if its good enough, and tiny jam games spread REALLY well on the internet (my 2 jam games butcherbugs and fracuum both have over a million plays, which is worth a few hundred dollars)

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:33:09 Reply

At 2/7/13 03:47 PM, 4urentertainment wrote: What does everyone else think of random of teams?

I already saw many positive views over the random teams although one of the reasons that austin allowed team creation by its own members is due to me and a few other participants. I remember that was in the winter game jam (2010 I guess), everyone was posting in the game jam discussion thread about how their games were going on and their progression, although the hours were passing and any team member of my group has shown up. Me and a few others complained about that and austin said that we could create our own teams. So I picked up FlashStorm as my artist, even though we haven't finished our game we became development partners, we've already done lots of tests and mini games together. I remember that Luis also joined our group (rather than his original one) to help.

What was fun about the random teams is that they had the chance to work with different people and make friends etc., which is cool. The problem is that something like the case I described might happen, choose your group ensures organization.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:34:07 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:28 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: doing a game for a competition solely for money is stupid

do what you want, i'm just letting you know the repercussions of your actions. In this case, there is a very high likelihood that you will be losing very good people.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:37:25 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:34 PM, egg82 wrote:
At 2/7/13 04:28 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: doing a game for a competition solely for money is stupid
do what you want, i'm just letting you know the repercussions of your actions. In this case, there is a very high likelihood that you will be losing very good people.

You mean we'd lose that guy you know, who can whip out one of the best platformer engines in 2 days, but wouldn't join anything for free?


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egg82
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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:41:29 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:37 PM, Toast wrote: You mean we'd lose that guy you know, who can whip out one of the best platformer engines in 2 days, but wouldn't join anything for free?

though he was in mind (he may or may not join, I dunno) I was actually talking about other people. He's not alone in that mindset; not by far.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:48:12 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:41 PM, egg82 wrote:
At 2/7/13 04:37 PM, Toast wrote: You mean we'd lose that guy you know, who can whip out one of the best platformer engines in 2 days, but wouldn't join anything for free?
though he was in mind (he may or may not join, I dunno) I was actually talking about other people. He's not alone in that mindset; not by far.

I think the problem is that, these people, who may be highly skilled, even if you made a monetary prize, they'd only enter to try and win that prize, so they'd never want to innovate or experiment with something new or fun, or collaborate with someone who is less skilled than them, which may cost them the prize but may forge a valuable partnership, and that's what game jams are all about.

Why would a person with that mindset join this anyway? With or without a prize? As Glaiel pointed out, they can easily spend their time working on something to sell or client work instead of working on something with the hopes that maybe they'll get paid if they win.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 16:51:58 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:37 PM, Toast wrote: You mean we'd lose that guy you know, who can whip out one of the best platformer engines in 2 days, but wouldn't join anything for free?

In the words of Day9, "Fuck em."

Since I don't have class mon or fri, I might actually have the full 48/72 hrs to work on it for once...unless it's over a break again. If the teams are random, would there be any way to utilize the collabthing at all? Unless "random" means "people you haven't worked with before," then it'd be perfect for finding that special someone.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 17:07:40 Reply

I'd question the mindset of anyone who would refuse to enter a game jam UNLESS there was a 150$ prize for one game at the end of it, and I certainly wouldn't expect them to be the ones who end up making something interesting for it.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 17:16:44 Reply

At 2/7/13 05:07 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: I'd question the mindset of anyone who would refuse to enter a game jam UNLESS there was a 150$ prize for one game at the end of it, and I certainly wouldn't expect them to be the ones who end up making something interesting for it.

Yeah im totally against the money aspect of it. the whole point of the jam is to be free of corporate and professional restriction and really brainstorm and try weird things that nobody in their right mind would even want to consider messing with. I think the whole ludum whatever it is has the right spirit of what a jam is. Sometimes i wonder if all those years of doing 'competitions' and stuff have made people feel like it has to have monetary value to even give it the time of day.

I'd be up for doing something even on a small scale, like maybe its not a big heavily promoted thing, maybe its just like hey lets all huddle up on this X weekend and come up with some dumb theme or whatever and just go nuts. Theres alot of gems in crude experiments.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 17:27:45 Reply

i'm not trying to say "give everyone $50" - i'm trying to point out things in your ideas (repercussions, good or bad) that you may have missed.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 17:57:59 Reply

At 2/7/13 05:27 PM, egg82 wrote: i'm not trying to say "give everyone $50" - i'm trying to point out things in your ideas (repercussions, good or bad) that you may have missed.

yeah its fine, its a valid observation really. i dont think people were scolding you they were just giving their opinion on that matter.


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 21:47:57 Reply

On the subject of mentoring, I think a mentor/apprentice relationship is far more valuable than a teacher/student relationship or a mentor/multiple apprentice relationship. I've been in charge of developing code for the robotics team at my high school for the past few years, a position which entails teaching newer members to code, and most of the time it's a mess. Many of the kids I've worked with have been unmotivated, and the steep learning curve discourages most of them. I've been lucky enough to "mentor" a handful of very bright novices who have grown tremendously as we have worked together. The "apprentice" has a certain responsibility to learn, engage himself, and be generally interested in the subject matter, and from what I've seen not many people are willing to make that commitment.

Diverging a bit, the way the robotics team's set up is quite interesting. There are sixty or so students on the team, of which ten are leaders of a specific subteam (dedicated to programming, CAD, building, controls, etc.). There are also an additional thirty or so adult mentors, who work professionally in the field they're assigned to mentor. The knowledge "trickles down" the team hierarchy, and everyone who sticks around for a while gets enough facetime each week with someone who can teach them something new.

I see this as similar to how the Flash Forum used to work (maybe it still does, I haven't been around lately); the "pros" would usually only assist less skilled users with reasonably complex problems, who would, in turn, assist the newbies, who would ask trivial questions about Vcams and coding on the frame.

Speaking of which, how the hell are 25% of the threads on the front page of the Flash Forum still about either AS2 or Vcams? AS3 is over half a decade old as it is.

I propose we purge all the old AS2 tutorials from the forums and the internet as a whole so beginners don't have resources to fuel their depreciated habits.

Outside of robotics, I've been in the mentor position once or twice, though very casually. It typically turns into a "mutual learning" sort of thing once the other person becomes competent enough to handle himself. I wouldn't consider anyone I've known to be my "mentor," really. The closest to that would be my dad, who I can always ask questions bout math and science.

At 2/5/13 08:23 PM, MSGhero wrote: I wouldn't be able to work with anyone who doesn't cuddle their braces. Heartless bastards.

Oh, god, I agree with you there. I think most of us here picked up that habit because it's common among Flash programmers. I can't stand the typical bracket conventions elsewhere.

Tab sizes other than the standard four spaces bug me as well. Someone I know sets their tabs to equal ten spaces, another prefers their tabs to equal two spaces. This bugs the hell out of me.

At 2/7/13 03:47 PM, 4urentertainment wrote: Yeah, it could totally be a community run contest. Just as long as winners are not chosen by portal score.
What does everyone else think of random of teams?

Once they started allowing participants to organize their own teams, Game Jams seemed to lose much of their appeal (for me, at least). Part of the fun was working with people I didn't know and forcing myself a bit out of my comfort zone in working with my team to rapidly develop a feasible, agreeable game concept.

A community run game jam would be a great idea, but it should definitely have randomized teams.

At 2/7/13 04:21 PM, SantoNinoDeCebu wrote: If you're doing a game jam for money.. you're doing it wrong! That's not what they are about at all! potential exposure on the front page for a game jam game should be enough incentive I would've thought. I was well chuffed when my entries where on there!

I agree; game jams aren't meant to be profitable, they're meant to be a fun way for otherwise busy people to drop everything for a few days and try out something new.

At 2/7/13 04:33 PM, Spysociety wrote: I remember that was in the winter game jam (2010 I guess), everyone was posting in the game jam discussion thread about how their games were going on and their progression, although the hours were passing and any team member of my group has shown up. Me and a few others complained about that and austin said that we could create our own teams.

What was fun about the random teams is that they had the chance to work with different people and make friends etc., which is cool. The problem is that something like the case I described might happen, choose your group ensures organization.

I think that's a worthwhile risk when participating in a jam; although it does suck when only some (or none) of your teammates show up, it's mostly manageable and I don't see anything wrong with mixing and matching teams with absent members.

Only my artist showed up for the last game jam I was in, but we more than managed. He did the art and music, and I programmed. We even fixed up the game afterwards and got a nice bit of cash from it.

I regret missing the several game jams that have happened since then, I'm always busy when they come around. If there's a community-organized jam it'd be nice if there were a voting process for the dates.

Whoa, guys, sorry for the novel.

In other news, Git's the most useful thing since sliced bread.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 22:37:04 Reply

A game jam would be cool. I had a lot of fun at the last jam, but I always think that users of Newgrounds don't understand what is going on. I see a lot of reviews judging my submission as if it were another game on Newgrounds. It doesn't bother me that much, but it's sort of strange. I like Ludum Dare. So I'll probably do the next one of that.

At 2/7/13 09:47 PM, Archawn wrote: In my younger and more formidable years...

TLDR

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 22:46:33 Reply

At 2/7/13 04:28 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: doing a game for a competition solely for money is stupid

It was dumb when sponsor portals did it back in the day, they would pay like $5k out in prize money, and get hundreds of free games made for them from kids who didn't know that it was a terrible ripoff to spend months working on a game in the hopes of winning a prize, and getting nothing out of it, when they still make quality games that get hundreds of thousands of visitors coming to the portals site.

Actually there used to be a contest held every year by MaxGames.com that would give out $10,000 as the top prize, 5k as prize 2, 2.5k as third place all the way down to 10th, and then SEVERAL other sub-prizes ontop of that. Yes they did stack.
I entered some of my first games into them, which would've never in a million years got sponsored by anyone. My games were pretty crappy, but I came third and 5th and made legitemate money for the first time when I was about 16.
It was a huge deal, cos this was the first time I could show my parents that people get paid to make videogames, even though realistically I wasn't actually there yet.
So I passed the contest on to other people whose games I liked, including Ansel who came first the year after and made way more than he would've done. That yearly contest was a crazy boost.

Also I probably wouldn't enter a game jam that didn't have a prize- unless it was a really awesome idea like "Fuck This Jam" or the Molyjam.
I know that makes me sound like a giant evil tyrant, but it's fucking true. I've skipped like a billion game jams.

Is it cos MY TIME IS VALUABLE!!? No, it's cos I'd feel bad for spending a week or a month on something just for laughs. I'd feel like I was procrastinating and putting off work. I'd feel like I was clownin' around and wasting time and being a slacker while I have unfinished deadlines to hand in on my desktop. At least if there's a prize I can lie to myself and say "Technically if I win then this counts as work, so I'm covered."
And the reason I said lieing to myself is because I'm never actually trying to win anything.

So maybe I'm like an odd-one-out creep, and this is a dumb baby thing that only I do- but yo there's the other side o' that coin incase anyone was interested.

and side-note: If I actually did wanna try to win a game jam on Newgrounds.com...

At 2/7/13 05:16 PM, Luis wrote:

:the whole point of the jam is to be free of corporate and professional restriction and really brainstorm and try weird things that nobody in their right mind would even want to consider messing with.
This would be my exact fucking design doc. These hypothetical business-types wouldn't try to win with Farmville, they'd enter Don't Shit Your Pants and we'd all be none-the-wiser.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 22:49:35 Reply

Fuckinnnnn- pretend that quote at the end formatted correctly, please.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 22:53:07 Reply

At 2/7/13 10:46 PM, I-smel wrote: No, it's cos I'd feel bad for spending a week or a month on something just for laughs

weekend

also you can pop an ad on it and make a few hundred bucks that way, which is more than what a prize would be anyway

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-07 23:37:29 Reply

aaaaaa I don't like putting ads in stuff that small.

I mean y'know-- I'm talkin about tiny spontaenious, reactionary decisions here when I read that there's a game jam happening.

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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-08 10:52:14 Reply

At 2/7/13 10:46 PM, I-smel wrote: I know that makes me sound like a giant evil tyrant, but it's fucking true. I've skipped like a billion game jams.

Is it cos MY TIME IS VALUABLE!!? No, it's cos I'd feel bad for spending a week or a month on something just for laughs.

well time is valuable, and i think in my past experiences particularly with collabs, i realized that the lower the commitment level was, the more willing people would be to integrate that into their workload. I think any jam that has you spending more than even 3 days is probably too much of a commitment, especially with no prize or anything.

I think the tough thing about jams and newgrounds is that people feel really self concious about submitting experimental things, maybe its the culture we have built here or just the culture of the portal, where people are less open to allowing people to play and be crude. So people spend alot of time being conservative and polished. (Something that probably happend in that dumb puppy thing we never finished, i-smel. lmao).


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Response to The Flash 'Reg' Lounge 2013-02-09 02:26:01 Reply

At 2/7/13 10:46 PM, I-smel wrote: Is it cos MY TIME IS VALUABLE!!? No, it's cos I'd feel bad for spending a week or a month on something just for laughs. I'd feel like I was procrastinating and putting off work. I'd feel like I was clownin' around and wasting time and being a slacker while I have unfinished deadlines to hand in on my desktop. At least if there's a prize I can lie to myself and say "Technically if I win then this counts as work, so I'm covered."
And the reason I said lieing to myself is because I'm never actually trying to win anything.

the thing is, you're saying that your time is valuable to you right there.
If you had no deadlines to meet, nothing to do, and you realized that you had from now until the end of time to finish one thing without any consequence whatsoever, would you do it?

There's people who say "Time is money" and think quite literally in that way; there's people who prioritize some things over others because, well, that's the way it needs to be done following whatever logic they follow through with at the time of planning; there's also people in between the two.

Whatever their reason, whatever their goal, the general populace tends to think their time is valuable to an extent. It simply mostly depends on what cutoff you're expecting. "free" puts off a pretty large number of people, however a large amount of money (as evidenced earlier by I-smel) will attract the wrong type of people for the competition.

There was a study a little while ago fronted as a writing contest (it may have been art, but I believe it was writing) in which the participants of the study were given a set amount of money to create a small story. One group was given $10, and one was given $1. They somehow tied it to a charity of some sort.
The $10 contest had more people, but the $1 contest had much better quality writings. There's obviously quite a few variables that may or may not have been taken into account, however I find it believable enough to pass along as factual evidence.


Programming stuffs (tutorials and extras)
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thank Skaren for the sig :P

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