The Constitution for the rich

[JoS]

For my US Politics class we are currently studying the founding of the US and in specific the COnstitution. Whiel most of us already knwo it was a bunch of rich white dudes who wrote it up, its amazing how different the reasoning behind it is tthen what I previously imagined. It wa screated nto for the protection of all americans, but for their protection. Prior to the OCnstitution the states could also make legal tender and created paepr money that was worthless inr elaity which people could use to pay of their debts to the waelthy with. theya lso impeeded colelction of debts and other things. Their were duties on inter-state trade which costed merchants lots of money.

the Constitution dividing up these pwoers gave the wealthly total control. the only rigths protected by the original Constitution were property rigths. everything else was added ina fter the fact, an afterthought if youw ill. The Army and Navy were created to protect economic interests, it was the state militias whow ere rleied upon for defense of the nation. The only people in the federal systemw how er eelcted were the house, and they only had 2 year terms. Sentaors were apointed for 6 years, the President appointed and the SC was justa s we see it today.

The Constitution was full of inconsistancies. All men being equal, while many of the Foudning fatehrs owned slaves. The only reason any man coudl run for office wa sbecause they couldnt come up with a way to define wealth (some where land holders, others merchants others bankers or moneylenders).

What do you guys think? Is this true, or am I just spewing off more anti-American ideas because I am Canadian?

[fli]

I had the same thoughts... but I don't think the Constitution was written ONLY for "Whitey." You know... I think the Forefathers did have genuine interest in creating a government that was meant for all people.

Albiet that they were inconsistent such as the, "All men created equal." But let's put it into historical context: Blacks weren't seen as people but as property. This isn't to say we should forgive them, but at least they had the intention there and the essential meaning.

If we look at US... it's been run by the wealthy. Only poor person I could think that ran for it was Abe Lincoln. But then again, I'm only remember stuff I learnt in grade school. (Born in a cabin... stuff like that.)

[Imperator]

What do you guys think? Is this true, or am I just spewing off more anti-American ideas because I am Canadian?

No, you're actually on the ball. The original Constitution left a shit ton of the things we practice today out, it WAS just a document to protect the rich defectors of the british crown.

The Bill of Rights (the afterthoughts you mentioned) weren't added till 1791.

Until then we were more of an aristocraitc oligarchy than a democracy.

[ImmoralLibertarian]

This reminds me of what the kids teacher shouts at them just a the summer starts in Dazed and Confused about the 4th of July.

“remember, all your celebrating is that some rich, white, slave owners didn’t want to pay taxes”

[MortifiedPenguins]

Seriously, whats up with your taxes.

And whether or not the constitution was just for the rich is irrelevant.

It set up a balanced force between state governments and the federal one with equal representation.

You have to remember, the Constitution was ratified by the people of this country.

[Glendale]

The Constitution is a living document, as such, it changes when society changes. While the slave trade was outlawed in 1808, slavery continued until 1865, and official seperation of race continued until the last half of the 20th century. Whatever ethics we currently have, the Constitution reflects that.

[JoS]

At 9/26/06 06:19 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: You have to remember, the Constitution was ratified by the people of this country.

100 000 people of the 160 000 people who voted approved it. However that only 1 our of every 6 white men voting, or 5% of the population of the United States at the time. Technically it was supposed to be ratified by all of the legislators of the states, but thta woudl enevr have happend because Rhode Island was not controlel dby the elites, but by poor farmers and other who were in debt.

[BeFell]

At 9/26/06 04:42 PM, JoS wrote: What do you guys think? Is this true, or am I just spewing off more anti-American ideas because I am Canadian?

Why do you even care?

Is it because your country's constitution consists of the words "ditto minus guns" written in pencil on the back of an American $1 bill?*

*The writer of this post may not know the nature of the Canadian constitution due to the fact that his country's constitution is so significant it is studied in other countries while the constitutions of other countries don't occupy the the thoughts of any of his countrymen.

[dreamstohack]

The constituion (while it may have benifited rich americans) was an amazingly powerful document that achived much good. You mention the slavery issue as tho all the delagates were equally decided, but in reality almost all of the northern states delagates were pushign to outlaw slavery, however if they demanded that, the constitution would not have been ratified. You can argue that even those northern statesmen owned slaves themselves, but the issue isnt taht simple. To be a man of any power in those days, you had to have money, and while you may have wished that slavery could be abolished, if you freed your slaves, you woudl ahve gone bankrupt very quickly. Also, the only creditors (people to whom money was owed) wernt only rich, and the money manufacturing was hurting anyone who had ever had the decendy to lend a little moeny to soemone who needed it. Also, the inter-state taxes and states money were making for a completely dvided nation. It may have benifited rich people, but it also brought the whole nation more unitedly. Finally, the bill of rights wern't an "afterthought", the constitution was created to allow for adjutments as needed. Benjamin Franklin himslef said that the constitution was incomplete, but allowed for improving.
It is true that the rich white americans benifited from the constitution, but without it, we woudl have declared ourselves 13 independant countries, gone bankrupt, and gotten reaptured by the british, and while one may have their complaints about the USA (i myself have many), it has been an amzing country for its short time of living

[zzzzd]

What is so amazing about the USA it's just a lucky country i dont know why you all think its absolutly amaing. WHAt the fuck have you done which is so utterly amazing??????????

[Imperator]

Is it because your country's constitution consists of the words "ditto minus guns" written in pencil on the back of an American $1 bill?*

BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!

Sorry, I just found that REALLY amusing.

JoS does have some good points. In more recent news, I think Bill Clinton's second term was won with roughly 35% of the US population.

Excluded from this voting process were the people who can't vote (underage, criminal, etc) and the people who chose not to vote.

Minus the millions who voted for other candidates, I recall hearing somewhere that Bill Clinton was elected with only like 35% of the nation voting for him.

Just kinda a weird thing when you think about it.....

[Imperator]

At 9/26/06 08:36 PM, zzzzd wrote: What is so amazing about the USA it's just a lucky country i dont know why you all think its absolutly amaing. WHAt the fuck have you done which is so utterly amazing??????????

I can breakdance. I can spin on my HEAD BITCH! Take THAT suckah!!! Everyone who sees me says the same thing, "Damn! That's absolutely amazing!!!!".

Victor!

[zzzzd]

That is fuckin amazing

[zzzzd]

At 9/26/06 08:47 PM, djx2d wrote:

At 9/26/06 08:36 PM, zzzzd wrote: What is so amazing about the USA it's just a lucky country i dont know why you all think its absolutly amaing. WHAt the fuck have you done which is so utterly amazing??????????

yeah in the other polytic fourm you said something ignorant too it was do uros hate americans...

anyways your wrong america the strongest country in the world... is in fact amazing!

we invented many things thatyou need to live on... ( well u dont need them but if they dissaperd u would be pissed off)

we invented this shit

also al gore helped invent the internet... which you are useing right now u dumb fuck

A British Person Invented the Internet.

And The British have invented many more things than americans so have many other countries.

America is the most powerfull nation at the moment. Not that amazing. Other countries in the past have done much better.

Tell me what makes america So very amazing compared to other countries that atually have a history

[Demosthenez]

Rich people 300 years ago were consumed with protecting their wealth? NO WAY. That is so unlike any point in history all across the world, especially today.

But we have to put this in context. It is all well and good to try and stomp over the reasons for the creation of the American government but we have to be straight. The Constitution established no aristocracy. The Constitution established no hereditary or lifetime leader or leaders. The Consititution established universal rights (given, that were not quite universal at the time) that were quite alien to damn near every country. The Constitution greatly expanded voting rights in comparison to other comparable countries.

To suggest that the men who founded this country were not as forward thinking as they were is ridiculous. The Constitution was centuries ahead of its time which is why it is immitated the world over and is studied in classes around the globe.

At 9/26/06 08:58 PM, zzzzd wrote: A British Person Invented the Internet.

No, a British person invented the protocols that currently run the internet. Someone in the American military invented the hardware and machinery that currently allows the internet to run (I describe that terribly but that is basically what I always thought it was).

Tell me what makes america So very amazing compared to other countries that atually have a history

How about this. We beat the shit out of your country in every war. Enough?

[Glendale]

A British Person Invented the Internet.

And The British have invented many more things than americans so have many other countries.

America is the most powerfull nation at the moment. Not that amazing. Other countries in the past have done much better.

Tell me what makes america So very amazing compared to other countries that atually have a history

And ill reply to that tomorrow...just let that hang over your head tonight.

[zzzzd]

At 9/26/06 10:30 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Tell me what makes america So very amazing compared to other countries that atually have a history

How about this. We beat the shit out of your country in every war. Enough?

You won Independence, you didn't beat the shit out of the British.

The British Army In america was badly supplied diseased and alot of them deserted.
The Actuall British army of that time was Fighting wars in India and France 100 Times bigger and more important.

And the Only other war i Can think of which America fought the British was 1812 which America couldn't win against a shitty garrison then the shitty garison couldn't win against america.

America as it self has only had 10 wars and you've lost 3 of them.

Many Countrys have won independence in the past, It's Impossible to keep a country on the other side of the world where 90% of the population want independence.

Ireland Really did win an extrodinarry war of independence. as did many others
America did not.

[Demosthenez]

At 9/27/06 10:00 AM, zzzzd wrote: You won Independence, you didn't beat the shit out of the British.

Scoreboard.

The British Army In america was badly supplied diseased and alot of them deserted.

The invasion force that came to New York was the biggest foreign invasion force prior to that in history. Either that or it was the largest fleet not in European waters at that time or something like that. I can find out exactly what it was if you want.

Point being, the British government and Lord North and King George III took the threat plenty serious.

And the Only other war i Can think of which America fought the British was 1812 which America couldn't win against a shitty garrison then the shitty garison couldn't win against america.

Scoreboard.

America did not.

Scoreboard. And yes, winning a war against the best army in the world with a bunch of ragtag partisans with no formal training, a war that could have been lost time and time again both on the battlefield and at the civil level is in no way as spectacular as the Irish revolution /endsarcasmyouretartedwelshretardandyesire
peatedmyself

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 9/27/06 10:00 AM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/26/06 10:30 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

America as it self has only had 10 wars and you've lost 3 of them.

1. American Revolution-Won
2. War of 1812- Tie
3. Mexican American War- Won
4. Cival War- Won
5. Spanish American War-Won
6. WWI-Won
7.WW2-Won

As you can see, we have had only 7 declared and legal wars. And as you can see, we haven't lost any of them.

We lost Vientam, and that was a conflict not a war.

Not that I should bring in the many times the inhabitants of Britian were conqured by Foriegn Powers.

Hell, the French even defeated you.

[JoS]

At 9/27/06 02:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: 2. War of 1812- Tie

How do you gather that, you invaded Canada and we pushed you way past your border then gave you back the lost territory.

Back on topic, of your founding fatehrs Butler, Davie, Jenifer, A. Martin, L. Martin, Mason, mercer, CC Pinckney, C Pinckney, randolph, Read, Rutledge, Spaight, George Washington and Wythe all own slaves and large Plantations. However this fact embarrassed them so they refered to them as people forced into service or some shit like that. Slavery was protected under the Constitution, and slaves whoe scaped to another state were required to bereturned if someoen claimed them.

sure someo of them realized the moral paradox of protecting slavery in a document which states all men are created equal, but that didnt make them give up slaves.

[zzzzd]

At 9/27/06 02:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/27/06 10:00 AM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/26/06 10:30 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

America as it self has only had 10 wars and you've lost 3 of them.

1. American Revolution-Won
2. War of 1812- Tie
3. Mexican American War- Won
4. Cival War- Won
5. Spanish American War-Won
6. WWI-Won
7.WW2-Won

As you can see, we have had only 7 declared and legal wars. And as you can see, we haven't lost any of them.

We lost Vientam, and that was a conflict not a war.

Not that I should bring in the many times the inhabitants of Britian were conqured by Foriegn Powers.

Hell, the French even defeated you.

Lol Vietnam was a fucking war and you lost, Korean war was a bit of a fuck up an all.

Theres no way you can Compare British History with American History.

And the French Never won, The Normans invaded in 1066 but they wernt french they were normans. And that was the last time Britain was ever invaded.

The American War of Independence was really nothing in terms of war.
Anyway it wasn't the American army that won the war but the American People.

Theres no way america could of defeated the british army at that point in time, howether 90% of a huge country using Gurellia Tactics and ambushes can defeat any army. The British Army was in America wasn't the Best army in the World.

Wellingtons was and he was in India at the time.

Throughout History The British have Defeated the French NUMEROUS amount of times.
Spanish, Prussians, Russians, germans, portugese. .

Your such an ignorant cunt saying the French Beat us. The French have Been An Immense Power hundreds of years. They Beat Many Many countries. (but not Britain) It's only in the last hundred France has fallen.

You had to use fuckin french help in your war of independence, I always thought you americans fucking worshipped the french.

[Imperator]

How do you gather that, you invaded Canada and we pushed you way past your border then gave you back the lost territory.

Usually when you lose a war the other guys annex your state and you are consiered a "conquered" nation.

We had a failed invasion. But y'all were "nice" enough to give the territory back. We were not under Canadian rule, and the boundary lines remained the same, ie, no change between pre-war and post-war.

I'd consider it a "strategic loss", but we were never under Canadian authority, so we really didn't completely get creamed.

Same with Vietnam. Our mission failed, hence a "strategic loss", but we, as a nation, were never defeated. North Vietnam didn't invade our country and take it over.

You guys won a complete victory, as not only did you prevent us from taking you over, but you then took the offensive and took US over. The dumbass thing you did was giving it back......

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 9/27/06 05:41 PM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/27/06 02:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/27/06 10:00 AM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/26/06 10:30 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Lol Vietnam was a fucking war and you lost, Korean war was a bit of a fuck up an all.

Korea was a U.N conflict and Vientam was never declared as an official war. It's just a conflict.

And the French Never won, The Normans invaded in 1066 but they wernt french they were normans. And that was the last time Britain was ever invaded.

So wait, where is Normandy again.
All the maps say North France.

Any your forgetting the Glorious Revolution.

The American War of Independence was really nothing in terms of war.
Anyway it wasn't the American army that won the war but the American People.

We could use the same term for Vientam, we slaughtered them strategically but the our citizens disliked it.

Theres no way america could of defeated the british army at that point in time, howether 90% of a huge country using Gurellia Tactics and ambushes can defeat any army. The British Army was in America wasn't the Best army in the World.

War is war, no matter the tactics.

The Brits you sent over were more or less arrogant, boastfull and complete strategic retards.

Your such an ignorant cunt saying the French Beat us. The French have Been An Immense Power hundreds of years. They Beat Many Many countries. (but not Britain) It's only in the last hundred France has fallen.

Normandy is in France, whether or not you consider them French, William was a french citizen.

And it depends if you think Harold was English.

You had to use fuckin french help in your war of independence, I always thought you americans fucking worshipped the french.

Wait, didn't the Irish kick your asses in Ireland.

[zzzzd]

At 9/27/06 06:23 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/27/06 05:41 PM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/27/06 02:39 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/27/06 10:00 AM, zzzzd wrote:

At 9/26/06 10:30 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Lol Vietnam was a fucking war and you lost, Korean war was a bit of a fuck up an all.

Korea was a U.N conflict and Vientam was never declared as an official war. It's just a conflict.

And the French Never won, The Normans invaded in 1066 but they wernt french they were normans. And that was the last time Britain was ever invaded.

So wait, where is Normandy again.
All the maps say North France.

Normandy wasn't france at that time.

Any your forgetting the Glorious Revolution.

The American War of Independence was really nothing in terms of war.
Anyway it wasn't the American army that won the war but the American People.

We could use the same term for Vientam, we slaughtered them strategically but the our citizens disliked it.

Theres no way america could of defeated the british army at that point in time, howether 90% of a huge country using Gurellia Tactics and ambushes can defeat any army. The British Army was in America wasn't the Best army in the World.

War is war, no matter the tactics.

I didn't say Gurellia tactics don't count, there the tactics which have destroyed many armys throughout history.

The Brits you sent over were more or less arrogant, boastfull and complete strategic retards.

Most Probably were, I think Most British Officers were extremelly Snobby, arrogant, and Boastful. But thats what British officers were. And The British Soldiers were the Scum Of the Earth. Somehow they worked

Your such an ignorant cunt saying the French Beat us. The French have Been An Immense Power hundreds of years. They Beat Many Many countries. (but not Britain) It's only in the last hundred France has fallen.

Normandy is in France, whether or not you consider them French, William was a french citizen.

And it depends if you think Harold was English.

You had to use fuckin french help in your war of independence, I always thought you americans fucking worshipped the french.

Wait, didn't the Irish kick your asses in Ireland.

The Irish war of Independence was an extremely Bloody, wrong war which was one of the worst things the British army has done.
Eventually Britain pulled out.

I think reeling of wars lost by Britain is a bit fuckin ignorant especially from an american.

Whatever you say Britain Has Won Many Wars some of the most famous of all time.
And Britain Had the Biggest Empire. A quater of the worlds surface was under British rule. All from a little Island

[Imperator]

Whatever you say Britain Has Won Many Wars some of the most famous of all time.

And Britain Had the Biggest Empire. A quater of the worlds surface was under British rule. All from a little Island

I actually think the Mongolian Empire occupied the most territory ever for an Empire, I'd have to check on that though.

In any case, the British Empire contributed a few things to our world, but don't be so arrogant as to assume you were the biggest and best.

There were others before you that have had a more lasting impact.....

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 9/27/06 07:04 PM, Imperator wrote:

In any case, the British Empire contributed a few things to our world, but don't be so arrogant as to assume you were the biggest and best.

It's acutally funny.

Most of todays problems can be traced to British Imperialism.

[zzzzd]

At 9/27/06 07:23 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/27/06 07:04 PM, Imperator wrote:

In any case, the British Empire contributed a few things to our world, but don't be so arrogant as to assume you were the biggest and best.

It's acutally funny.

Most of todays problems can be traced to British Imperialism.

But the really Ironic thing is one of those problems is AMERICA

[zzzzd]

At 9/27/06 07:04 PM, Imperator wrote:

Whatever you say Britain Has Won Many Wars some of the most famous of all time.

And Britain Had the Biggest Empire. A quater of the worlds surface was under British rule. All from a little Island

I actually think the Mongolian Empire occupied the most territory ever for an Empire, I'd have to check on that though.

In any case, the British Empire contributed a few things to our world, but don't be so arrogant as to assume you were the biggest and best.

There were others before you that have had a more lasting impact.....

I wouldn;t Dream of saying Britain was the Best and Biggest, Unlike alot of Americans who are always talking about america being the Best,

If it wernt for the British Empire you Americans would all be talking French or Spanish.
Mongolion Empire may of been the biggest, your right.

[goozebump]

At 9/26/06 08:47 PM, djx2d wrote: we invented this shit

What do you mean we? Michael Jordan can dunk but it sure in hell does'nt mean I can. You haven't invented anything. Those a are a couple of guys and the funny thing is some of them were first generation or second generation immigrants. Thats not really pure "American" in my book.Hell benjamin Franklin went to school in Britian, without that I doubt he would have had the knowledge to invent what he did. The only reason we aree world eladers now is becuase for most of WW2 we jsut sold stuff to Europe and both sides and watched themd estroy each other. That gave us a bit of head start and now everyone else is trying to catch back up. I dont see anything"special" about that.

[goozebump]

At 9/27/06 05:41 PM, Imperator wrote:

You guys won a complete victory, as not only did you prevent us from taking you over, but you then took the offensive and took US over. The dumbass thing you did was giving it back......

Unlike some americans or other imperialistis people, canadians aren't jackasses.