Dumping the SAT

[JMHX]

If colleges like truly desire competitive, intelligent, promising students who will excel later in life, there is one simple way to help bring about that change: dump the flawed idol that students nationwide call the Scholastic Assessment Test, or SAT.

Despite being viewed by some in academia as the be-all and end-all of scholastic achievement, the SAT isn’t really that great at predicting how students will do. According to the results of a 20-year study of SAT-takers conducted by William Hiss of Bates College, there is no significant difference in college performance between students who score a perfect 1600 and those whose scores fall much lower.

On the first day of classes here for the 2006-2007 year, the Kaplan’s Study Prep organization set up shop with a very prominent tent near the Johnson Center. Kaplan’s became a household name after they found out how to cash in on SAT and AP study booklets and prep classes in the days, weeks and even months leading up to the exams. It is no shock that a company with an annual operating profit of over $1 billion would want to see every college in America demand the SAT as a requirement for admission.
But is the SAT a fair indicator of scholastic ability?

The SAT, like any other test, can be studied for. The more one studies, the higher the average grade is likely to be. However, in this ultracompetitive world of college prep courses for kindergarteners and standardized testing to enter some exclusive Preschools, there is always a loophole. Private SAT prep organizations like those available through The Princeton Review charge from between $2,000 and $30,000 per month for comprehensive, five-day-per-week testing sessions. As Alexandra Robbins revealed in her groundbreaking book The Overachievers, test scores skyrocket dozens of points for every $2,000 increase in family income.

Now consider the “new” SAT – analogies have been removed in place of longer essays, which the College Board claims will better evaluate the abilities of test-takers. However, anyone who has ever had an essay assignment knows that essay grades are the most biased of any testing.

Instead of a multiple-choice test that can be scored objectively by a machine, essays are read by thousands of hired eyes who pore over millions of papers, giving about two minutes to each one. To show just how irrelevant the essay portion is, The Princeton Review submitted the work of famous writers like Ernest Hemingway, William Shakespeare to weather the SAT essay review.

Hemingway received only a 3 out of 6 total points. Shakespeare, who the essay grader remarked had an underdeveloped use of concluding sentences, got only a 2.
When Time magazine asked several famous people to release their SAT scores, the results were shocking: President George W. Bush managed a 1260 – today that is below the cutoff for not only Ivy League schools, but most private colleges. Paul Wellstone, the former Senator and Phi Beta Kappa honoree, scored under an 800. Horror icon Stephen King received a 1300, with a “less than impressive” verbal score.

To listen to SAT scores alone, none of these men are impressive enough to merit consideration at any private college.

Why is a test that is skewed by economic factors and based on subjective grading from tired teachers used to determine the worthiness of college applicants? The SAT is virtually useless as an indicator of academic performance. It is nothing more than a meal ticket for companies who profit off the hypercompetitive high school and college atmosphere.

The resulting scores are as pointless as trying to decide someone’s intelligence through bumps on their skull, and because of this many qualified and possibly excellent students are turned away at the door. Institutions from the prestigious Bard College to Cambridge have decided to remove their SAT requirements because they are fundamentally flawed. How long can other colleges continue to ride a sinking ship?

[SkunkyFluffy]

Teachers and professors I've talked with usually say that a very high SAT score might mean something, but a very low one does not. The same is true for all standardized tests. Unfortunately, there is no way for someone looking at a stack of papers to really get an understanding of a student's abilities, history, potential...so they use meaningless numbers to try and narrow the field.

The problem is that it's all a numbers game. I'm fairly familiar with the ins and outs of Admissions at George Mason University, so I'll use it as an example. The school received somewhere in the ballpark of 10,000 applications for this year's freshman class. Of those students, the school only has room to enroll about 2,500. Of course, if they only send acceptance letters to 2,500 people, they won't get nearly that many enrolled the first day of school. Many students who are accepted to GMU are also accepted elsewhere, and end up going to another college or university. So the school has to hedge its bets and admit a higher number than it can actually enroll. For a time that was about 5,000, but they're beginning to see higher percentages of admitted students choosing to enroll and overcrowding ensues.

For most of its history, GMU has constructed waitlists. They're thinking about doing away with them because no one on the list ever gets to attend. They've also been pushing the Early Decision program, which is non-binding but guarantees an answer by a very early date. Students who apply Early Decision probably have a better chance of getting in than similarly-qualified students who apply at the regular deadline. This service actually benefits the Office of Undergraduate Admissions as much as it does the students, because they are able to deal with a smaller volume of applications during the Early Decision period and it also reduces the total load during the regular pool.

They're still dealing with a huge number of applications. Thousands and thousands of GPAs, recommendations, extra-curriculars, scores, blah blah blah. Mason prides itself on being all about the Personal Statement, which is where a student gets a chance to really make an impression. What they're not telling you on those cute little tours that I helped give for three years is that the Personal Statement is really your only unique entry in the application. There are going to be plenty of students with the same GPA, the same Honors or AP classes, the same clubs and sports, the same SAT.

Mason has recently instituted a policy that allows students with high GPAs the option to leave the SAT out of their application. But does a low high school GPA mean you are a bad student, someone who will perform poorly in college? If I may use you as an example, JMHX...no, it doesn't. High school and college are wildly different academic atmospheres.

But until someone suggests a solid replacement for SAT scores and ACT scores on college applications, schools will continue to use them. Fortunately, some schools (Mason included) have begun to see that the SAT is going the way of the dinosaur. They've chosen not to consider the new scoring system since there's no baseline. Maybe someday they'll take the plunge and dump this archaic and unfair assessment.

[BeFell]

What about the ACT?

[SkunkyFluffy]

At 8/28/06 04:06 PM, BeFell wrote: What about the ACT?

Many people who do poorly on the SAT do significantly better on the ACT. Until recently, though, the ACT has mostly been accepted by West Coast schools. Some East Coast institutions (like GMU, actually) are willing to accept the ACT instead of the SAT. I've heard nothing to suggest that the ACT is as flawed as the SAT, but it still reflects a statistical approach to admissions rather than a more personal one.

[JMHX]

ACT still suffers from the standardized test problems of all big tests, but it is more curriculum based, and isn't necessarily teaching to a test in the way high schools are just funneling kids into test-based classes.

[SkunkyFluffy]

At 8/28/06 04:13 PM, JMHX wrote: ACT still suffers from the standardized test problems of all big tests, but it is more curriculum based, and isn't necessarily teaching to a test in the way high schools are just funneling kids into test-based classes.

You should see how the new Standards of Learning (SOL) tests, which are mandatory to graduate from high school in Virginia, have skewed the way classes are taught throughout the curriculum and at all grade levels.

[Shinta337]

SAT may suck a bit, but having no standardized test at all would be worse. just deal with the SAT.

[BOZARTH187]

Sat sucks i refuse to take it ever in my life.

[Neoptolemus]

The thing is all forms of written examinations or assessments are flawed. Idealy they are meant to show ones intellegence on a subject matter however all they really do is measure ones ability to regurgitate useless bits of information in a high stress scenario.

[SkunkyFluffy]

At 8/28/06 04:23 PM, neoptolemus wrote: regurgitate useless bits of information in a high stress scenario.

Which is actually a fair comparison for some aspects of college life.

[UndeadTemplar88]

lets see...can the SAT predict how I will do in my Physics class in college?

Nope...can it make you spend a stupid amount of money? yes

[Slat]

OMG i cant believe you guys!! SAT is teh best thing eva!!

In my country you have to pass ÖSS to get into a fukin college.. It's 3 hours long and you can only do it once a year!! And its really hard!! I failed it this year and i have to wait and study 1 more year.. SHIT >:(

(sorry about the crappy english its 2am here)

[Camarohusky]

I think you are all missing the ONLY real reason the SAT has any value, it's the "S". It's standardized. Without this standardized, yet flawed, way of judging people how can we tell who is best and who isn't?

Do we take the GPA's word for it? Anybody who really worked hard in high school knows that the people who get the best GPA were NOT the smartest people. Of all 4 valedictorians, not a single one took an AP course, and 2 of them took the lowest level of courses possible.

In truth, there is NO accurate way to judge college performance aside from having the student spend a year in college. I was a mediocre high school student at best, but I've performed quite well in a tough major in a tough school. On the other hand I've seen high school valedictorians flounder in majors that I would not say are extremely difficult, granted they are not easy.

To those who says tests do not show college, just go ask the nearest college student what they get graded on. For almost all of my classes tests make up 60-90%+ of the final grade. Top say that a standardized test does not show how well one will perform in college is complete grabage. To make it even more interesting, the classes that don't have obnoxiously large test percentages, essays make up the bulk of the grading.

[Moose]

Like the thread-starter said, people who spend more money tend to do better. Colleges don't care about you getting in, especially private ones. They don't want that smart kid who will barely be able to pay his way through college, they want the guy with rich parents, so they can possibly donate money to the school.

[JMHX]

We have to stop thinking that there is some way to linearly map an entire student population based on the results of any test or series of tests. You would think the people with PhD's would be intelligent enough to see that.

[Buffalow]

I dislike the SAT and all other tests of the sort because they don't test you on what you know, they test you on what you don't know. Like, if you studied, studied, studied for a test on Foreign Battlefeilds in WWII, they ask you a question on how the Homefront acted to support the troops.

[urbloodyromance]

All the SAT does is tell us who can take a test the best. It also tells us who has the money to spend on prep classes. The SAT is a useless test that colleges use because they have no other way of creating a baseline for potential students. But it doesn't actually show how well someone does in a class based enviroment. More and more colleges are starting to see this but until a new system of judging potential students is created high school students will have to deal with it.

[JMHX]

The entire idea of relative accomplishment is ruining education. It isn't enough to be a smart student - you have to be the smartest. You are not valid if someone is smarter, if you have a 3.9 GPA and someone else has a 3.92. Suddenly it is as if nothing matters except the best, the top. That's not the point of education, and the SAT is a major support of this broken idea.

[Elfer]

At 8/28/06 07:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Do we take the GPA's word for it? Anybody who really worked hard in high school knows that the people who get the best GPA were NOT the smartest people. Of all 4 valedictorians, not a single one took an AP course, and 2 of them took the lowest level of courses possible.

It's called GPAs and prerequisites. That's what they do here, and it works fine. To get into engineering, you generally have to have an average around mid 80s or higher. However, you can't get into it with dance, fashion, and powerfit. You are also required to take certain courses and maintain that average in those courses. I'm sure you have course prerequisites in America for college programs as well, a GPA would not be the only thing considered.

For example, to get into engineering, I had to take the highest level chemistry and physics courses available, along with the two highest level math courses available in high school (Calc and Geometry/Discrete Math) along with the highest level english course available. My average was at the low end of the 90s.

Sure I could have taken drama, gym, data management, business, photography, fashion, and health and gotten all 98s and 99s, but you know what? Despite the higher average, I wouldn't have gotten into the program of my choice. Funny how that works, huh?

[Camarohusky]

At 8/29/06 12:56 AM, Elfer wrote: Many very good points

The problem with those is not when you get a 3.8 person in tough classes going against a 4.0 loser class person, it's when you get someone who took the hard classes and gets a 3.2 or so. That person could have taken worse classes and aced them, but chose to learn and aim high and didn't get top marks. Colleges are much more likely to take the 4.0 loser over the gritty 3.2 smart kid who aimed just a little too high. That kid then falls way below the indew while dumb blonde 4.0 bimbo (Yes, she was one of the 4 valedictorians at my high school,) would easily coast over the index even though she deserved the 1040 she got. Hell, I think she got lucky with that score.

I was one of those gritty kids who aimed high, granted I didn't put in the full effort, and if it were not for the SAT score I got I would have definitely NOT been accepted to my current University. Therefore, I am quite biased.

[Ravariel]

My high school GPA was ok (3.8)... my SAT scores were ok (1350), my ACT scores were ok (36), the highest math class my school offered was trig, which I had to take independantly (Read: they gave me the book and let me do it myself), nevermind not having ANY AP classes... and yet I got accepted to the University of Chicago with a pre-declared major of Physics. For those that don't know: that is NOT an easy thing to accomplish. (granted I turned them down and went to U of M, but that's a whole other story)

It wasn't because of my scores. It wasn't because of my GPA or which classes I took in High School, though I'm sure they all helped a little. It was because of my application. Now I relize that that example may be slightly out of the ordinary, because of the uniqueness of the school itself, but I think too many people put too much importance on the SAT when it really doesn't matter as much as they think. If an admissions director reads your application and is impressed, they probably won't care if you got an 1100 on your SATs.

[Elfer]

Well, here you generally get a few reports on your marks throughout the semester, and you have the option to switch to a different level of the course if you're struggling with it or breezing through it way too easily.

The idea is that you're responsible for getting your own marks to the levels that they need to be. However, if you want to take the easier level course but still learn about the harder stuff because you have an interest in it, those resources are generally available.

If you want to take the hard courses but don't bust your ass enough or can't hack it, that's really your own problem here. However, I can't really speak from experience, because I myeslf found AP calc to be a breeze, despite it being supposedly harder than any other math course generally available at Ontario high schools. Although, I don't know if that's true, because i knew a lot of people who did great in calc, then took discrete and sucked at it. Probably because discrete is a lot mroe about application of geometry to a problem and stuff than it is about following the steps you learned earlier in class.

I had an easy time with discrete though, because I'm good at seeing ways to apply stuff to problems, mostly because I don't study and I'm forced to do that all the time anyway.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that it ends up being a good system in the end, because if you can't get high marks in the hard courses, the university courses that require those courses probably aren't for you. You can either take an arts degree instead of a science degree, or just go to college instead of university here. Also, getting decent marks in the really hard courses here will usually qualify you for the same stuff as getting high marks in the easier courses. The only courses where you're really competing for high marks are the ones where you have to take all the hard courses anyway.

However, this is partly due to the fact that colleges and universities are two different things here. And frankly, if you can't get good enough marks to get into a college here, you're pretty much destined for unskilled labour anyway.

[ShitstormLX]

At 8/28/06 06:51 PM, Slat wrote: OMG i cant believe you guys!! SAT is teh best thing eva!!

In my country you have to pass O?NSS to get into a fukin college.. It's 3 hours long and you can only do it once a year!! And its really hard!! I failed it this year and i have to wait and study 1 more year.. SHIT >:(

(sorry about the crappy english its 2am here)

The new SAT is also 3 hours long. They added an essay component along with more multiple questions under a wrirtng section.

Then again you can still take it more than once a year

[MortifiedPenguins]

Funny, I'm signing up for SAT prep course for Math this fall too.

[JMHX]

GMU just officially dropped the SAT as an admissions requirement.

One small step for man.

[SkunkyFluffy]

At 8/29/06 11:24 PM, JMHX wrote: GMU just officially dropped the SAT as an admissions requirement.

One small step for man.

I know firsthand that Andrew Flagel, our Dean of Admissions, has a strong dislike of standardized testing and anything that he feels de-individualizes the candidates. So it makes sense that he would support a move like this.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 8/29/06 11:24 PM, JMHX wrote: GMU just officially dropped the SAT as an admissions requirement.

One small step for man.

A lot of colleges don't have it as an official requirment for admission, but it's just one of those unspoken rules that you will be barely considered without it.

[The-Dran]

At 8/28/06 04:17 PM, SkunkyFluffy wrote:

At 8/28/06 04:13 PM, JMHX wrote: ACT still suffers from the standardized test problems of all big tests, but it is more curriculum based, and isn't necessarily teaching to a test in the way high schools are just funneling kids into test-based classes.

You should see how the new Standards of Learning (SOL) tests, which are mandatory to graduate from high school in Virginia, have skewed the way classes are taught throughout the curriculum and at all grade levels.

Damn you beat me to it. However, normally us Virginians call it the "Standards of Lunacy"... because it makes you psychotically insane after taking the exam.

We should get rid of standarize exams except for an intelligence examination that should be created to insure people citizenship, the right to vote, and the right to campaign for American Government Held Offices. In addition, we should have an examination created by each teacher or department head which is reviewed by the City's and State's education board members. Which the students must take near the end of the Senior Year or prior to such during the Junior or Sophmore Year (optional) that is base on their own individual assortion of classes.

By that I mean... if you take Earth Science, Oceanography, and Chemistry in high school. Then you will be tested on those materials. If you take Earth Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics in high school (like I did) then you will be tested on those materials.

Besides some parts that might be added into the English area only to increase difficulty and promote some studying for the exam. Since I probably wouldn't need to study on anything I've learn with my photographic memory. But that should only be a slight portion of the English part of the exam.

The Math part should entirely be made off of the materials that someone has taking in high school and possibly also in middle school (incase you took algebra and geometry in middle school like I did).

The Exam should be base off of every course you've taking... with some being counted more than others depending on how important they are for college.

English being the highest
Foreign Language being the next highest (Sophistication reasons)
Computer Courses should be the next highest (we are in the technological age)
Math is next (but this might be regarded higher if you took more math courses in HS)
Political Sciences are next (Citizenship reasons)
History should be next (Citizenship reasons)
Science should be next (Important study for environmental reasons and such)
Anything else goes after these big six

English

English is the most important class... and the exam pertaining to this subject should be the longest and the most well thought out. 20% pertaining to this exam should be base on some of certain elements that are taught minorly in class and viewed importantly in a college evaluation exam. Like knowwing extremely difficult to remember words that must fit in a blank portion of a paragraph. And similar things.

Foriegn Language

Foriegn Language isn't that important right now... because like Britain, Australia, Canada, Europe, Asia, Mexico, and almost everyone else would say... Americans are retarded bastards. In due time hopefully America will understand the importance of learning foreign languages. You should learn 3 languages in your time from elementary to high school, besides English.

And these are the following 100 that I find most important. You should only know at least 3 out of them plus English to be a sophisticated citizen. And these should be taught in every high school in America. Which would decrease unemployment, because you'll have more teachers. These are listed from most popular to least popular. 16 Popular languages and 4 minor and yet important languages for some professions. Greek for Art and History studies... Hebrew for religious studies... Latin for science... Swahili for African Studies... International Sign Language for Disibility Studies

1. Chinese
2. Hindi
3. Spanish
4. Arabic
5. Portuguese
6. Russian
7. French
8. Japanese
9. German
10. Korean
11. Persian
12. Italian
13. Turkish
14. Polish
15. Thai
16. Greek
17. Hebrew
18. Swahili
19. Latin
20. International Sign Language

There should be a grouping of individuals in each city that simply creates an exam for each language that teaches that language. So for example... all German teachers in the city of Norfolk administers and establishes an exam for the German Language. The exams should be base on similar content like material in the English Exam, except altered to what is important grammar wise and such for each of these languages. In addition, each foriegn language is between 25 to 50% in length to the English Exam. International Sign Language being at 25%. Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, French, and German being at 50%.

Computer Courses.

This exam should be between 10 to 25% the length of the English Exam, depending on how much of it you took.

The highlights of this exam are... Keyboarding (Typing), Computer Languages (Java, C++, and Visual Basic), Software Understandings (Where is Microsoft Word), Hardware Understandings (What is a monitor), Internet Browsing Understandings, and anything else related to such.

Math

These are the courses you should take (optional for some) from middle school to high school.

Fifth Grade - Pre Algebra
Sixth Grade - Algebra
Seventh Grade - Geometry
Eighth Grade - Review on Algebra (Algebra 2)
Nineth Grade - Trigonometry
Tenth Grade - Pre Calculus / Pre Analysis / Advance Trigonometry
Eleventh Grade - Calculus / Analysis / Algebraic Geometry
Twelth Grade - Advance Calculus / Advance Analysis / Review Mathematics

It actually depends on the teacher if a student starts to have trouble in any of these courses. It only depends on the student if he or she is lazy ass good for nothing or someone who actually wants to learn. But it is the teacher's responsibility to insure that each student at least passes their class in these subjects. And I mean passing as in actually passing. Not just being giving A's just because you are on the high school football team or because your ass is black.

This exam should only be 60 to 80% as long as the English Exam, depending on the major you decide on attending or the amount of math you with to take upon after high school. More Algebra or More Calculus/Analysis.

Next page.

[The-Dran]

I made a few mistakes in my last post. 20 instead of 100 foriegn languages. And below these seven, instead of six.

Alright... now to the next part...

Political Science

This exam should be entirely equal to 25% of the length of the English Exam.

These are listed from most important to the least...

1) National Laws and Government Understandings...
2) State Laws and Government Understandings...
3) City/County Laws and Government Understandings...
4) International Laws and Government Understandings...
5) Political Philosophy and Political History

1) Taught in Tenth Grade and partially in Seventh, Reviewed in Eleventh and Twelth Grade
2) Taught in Eighth Grade, Reviewed in Nineth and Twelth Grade
3) Taught in Eighth Grade, Reviewed in Nineth and Twelth Grade
4) Taught in Nineth Grade, Reviewed in Twelth Grade
5) Taught in Eleventh Grade, Reviewed in Twelth Grade

Course wise we have it as.

6th Grade... Basic Political Science
7th Grade... Basic Understandings of National Government
8th Grade... State and City Understandings of Law and Government
9th Grade... Internaional Understandings of Law and Government with Review on State and City Understandings.
10th Grade... Basic and Advance National Understandings of Law and Government
11th Grade... Political Philosophy and History with Review on National Understandings
12th Grade... Political Review

History

1) US History...
2) Modern World History... (1500 to Present day)
3) State and City History
4) Medieval World History... (500 to 1500 CE)
5) Classical World History... (1,000 BCE to 500 CE)
6) Ancient World History... (Pre-History to 1,000 BCE)
7) Religious World History (Indepth history to each of the ten major world religions, athiesm, and nature worship.)

A) Christianity
B) Islam
C) Hinduism
D) Buddhism
E) Sikhism
F) Judaism
G) Bahai Faith
H) Jainism
I) Shintoism
J) Chinese Faith and Philosophy (Taoism and Confuscianism)
------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
K) Athiesm
L) Nature Faith (Druidism, Paganism, and such)

Course wise we have it as.

6th Grade... State and City History
7th Grade... Ancient World History
8th Grade... Classical World History
9th Grade... Medieval World History
10th Grade... U.S. History with Review on State and City History.
11th Grade... Modern World History with Review on Ancient, Classical, and Medieval World History
12th Grade... Religious World History

Science

1) Biology
2) Chemistry
3) Physics
4) Environmental Science
5) Physical Science
6) Geology
7) Oceanography
7) Meteorology with Astronomy
8) Earth Science
9) Scientific Philosophy
10) Geography

Course wise we have it as.

5th Grade... Scientific Understandings
6th Grade... Physical Sceince / Geography
7th Grade... Environmental Science
8th Grade... Earth Science
9th Grade... Biology / Geology / Oceonography
10th Grade... Chemistry
11th Grade... Meteorology with Astronomy / Basic Physics
12th Grade... Scientific Philosophy and Review of previously taken Science Courses

[SkunkyFluffy]

At 8/31/06 04:05 AM, Anti_Noob wrote: Damn you beat me to it. However, normally us Virginians call it the "Standards of Lunacy"... because it makes you psychotically insane after taking the exam.

I was in the last graduating class that didn't have to pass them to graduate. We just got finals exemption. I feel for my younger sisters, all of whom are saddled with these stupid tests.