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If your actual question was, "Why should God care if I believe in Him?" then you did not make that clear. You said, "I don't know if there's a God or not, and I don't care to find out." You also said, "...knowing if he's there doesn't effect what happens to us anyway." I made my reply based on your 'who cares?' attitude.

As it happens, everything that I said in my last post can be applied to this question as well. You have nothing to lose, and potentially something large to gain by at least making the effort. Maybe you'll search for a while and realize you do believe in God and His importance. Maybe you'll search and come up with nothing.

If you wish to dogmatically reject the very idea that God might be relevant to your life, without even giving the matter serious consideration, then you are just as blind as the religious zealots that you so loudly denounce.

I'll say it again, I'm not trying to get you to believe anything. I'm just pointing out that your, "It doesn't matter; I don't care; Who cares?" attitude is no different from the religious zealot who says, "I don't need science, because I know what's right."

I don't care what you believe, but find a good reason for it. Don't just say, "It doesn't matter," and ignore it altogether. Make a reasonable, open minded inquiry and then decide.

At 3/13/03 09:02 PM, OlenWhitaker wrote:

If your actual question was, "Why should God care if I believe in Him?" then you did not make that clear. You said, "I don't know if there's a God or not, and I don't care to find out." You also said, "...knowing if he's there doesn't effect what happens to us anyway." I made my reply based on your 'who cares?' attitude.

Sorry I never made it clear enough.

If you wish to dogmatically reject the very idea that God might be relevant to your life, without even giving the matter serious consideration, then you are just as blind as the religious zealots that you so loudly denounce.

I gave the matter serious consideration. There was a reason why I said "I don't care"... and that was specifically because God has no reason to care whether or not I pray and acknowledge his dominance. He's not a flawed human who needs praise is he?

I don't care what you believe, but find a good reason for it. Don't just say, "It doesn't matter," and ignore it altogether. Make a reasonable, open minded inquiry and then decide.

M-hm. I gave it consideration, and that's in the fact that preaching religion, and the boundaries it creates between countries and different religions and groups is only creating death. I don't just say "I don't care" for no reason.

And what you said about "you have nothing to lose in searching, and everything to gain"... I'll say this.
What I have to lose is the waste of time in following a path of devotion in saying the rosary everyday or whatever other ritual it might be.

It might not be so easy to notice but, italics is what he wrote... and normal is mine. Shoulda used bold for his instead. Oh well.

OK, I tried. You say you've given the matter serious consideration; you say with certainty that God has no reason to care what you do. All I said was keep your mind open, and don't assume that you already have all the answers, but, no, you're positive. You're also sixteen years old. You have no experience in the real world and a very limited perspective. It's not your fault, that's what being sixteen is all about. You'll grow out of it someday. Five years? Ten years? Twenty? Trust me, you'll be there. You'll be so full of doubts you won't be sure of anything. Then you'll be ready to begin.

You'll forgive me, I trust, if I find your youthful certainty amusing.

Heh. You aren't that old yourself, so I'd avoid acting all high and mighty. You aren't so all-knowing either, because apparently you can't provide me much insight or information. You just say to keep looking.

Although hey, maybe it's because you're still young too. Lol. No hard feelings over our little discussion alright? And if you ever find out why God needs us to pay tribute to him through prayer or anything, give me a shout.

Although yeah,I don't think you'll ever figure one out. It's one of those unanswerable questions. (Lil recap here) The only good thing about all that devotion stuff is you can get your problems out and be with others (although for my age hanging out with friends in church wouldn't be too stimulating ;)).

I just wouldn't think of prayer and belief as a way to salvation. I am confident in the fact that all it requires is good action towards others.

It's just unfortunate that religion causes the problems it does =/. Everyone is so greedy and stupid. <sigh>

At 3/13/03 10:37 PM, NoNameProphet wrote: Heh. You aren't that old yourself, so I'd avoid acting all high and mighty. You aren't so all-knowing either, because apparently you can't provide me much insight or information. You just say to keep looking.

I heard that Plato once said, "I am the wisest man in Athens because I know that I don't know. I am only ignorant once. Everyone else is ignorant twice for they think they know, but still they do not."

I wasn't trying to be high and mighty, and you're right, I'm not that much older. Maybe I'm just getting a laugh remembering myself at sixteen. ;)

No hard feelings over our little discussion alright?

'Course not, man! That's what this forum is here for. :)

Although yeah,I don't think you'll ever figure one out.

I doubt that as well.

Hanging out with friends in church wouldn't be too stimulating ;)

Yeah, it never did much for me either.

It's just unfortunate that religion causes the problems it does =/. Everyone is so greedy and stupid. <sigh>

Now there's something we can definitely agree on.

C ya 'round the forum.

Good points have been made on both ends here, such as the "everything to gain" argument, and the "but I have all that time to gain from not praying" argument as well. Religion's such a messy topic. The good and evil the it perpetuates is such a quandary in the world. If only there were some way to get all the benefits from religion (hope, comfort, a need to help one's fellow man) and none of the problems (war, hatred bigotry, extremists, governmental control over people, etc.) then we'd all be better off. I don't know how one could accomplish this, but at the same time, I can't really think of anything big that religion has done to benefit mankind, nor what would really be lost if everyone were to stop believing in it. Why can't people just believe in people? To feel the need to do good for the species to propogate? I dunno. It feels like I'm standing on a soap box here, and I realize that these questions and points probably look incredibly stupid to those of you who are religious, but it's certainly something to think about, is it not?

As for 16 year-olds not having any experience, I'm sure that there are plenty of 16 year-olds who are more experienced than most 21 year-olds. I'm not saying it's true in this case. I'm merely stating that one should be careful when delegating who has more experience if you base such things upon age.

Word.

At 3/13/03 10:53 PM, PreacherJ wrote:

:Why can't people just believe in people? To feel the need to do good for the species to propogate? I dunno.

<sniff> That's my dream world. But it'll never happen. I have an idea though... it's kind of scary, but if you try to hold back your urge kill me for it, and keep an open mind you might learn something.

Goal --> To get humanity to look past its greed, which has been it's ultimate downfall.

Yep, Greed as lead to corporate scandals, division between poor and rich, wars for land or resources, power struggles... and pretty much ever single problem man has suffered for. How the hell can we at least fight some of it, and wake up a whole planet of billions of people?

Well one thing that always seems to get people's attention and stir up thoughts is mass-destruction and death. Just look at 9/11. Everyone was talking about how everyone felt a bit more brought together despite the destruction, same goes for Columbine. Some people might have realized it's not such a good idea to tease the hell out of kids during such unstable years.

So what's that have to do with the plan? One thing. Nuclear War. Near-Apocolypse. It's sad if this would be the only way, but it's hard to wake up the world to such an intense degree.

IF this US/North Korea/Iraq thing ends up bringing around the near destruction of the earth, maybe then if we're lucky enough to have a limited and connected population lying around... maybe they would realize the mistakes of the complicated world of before. Maybe they would realize how dangerous greed is on a massive level like it is today.

Although I am pretty sure eventually the people of future generations would forget. Humans are such a flawed species and I doubt perfection could ever be reached. That's a reason why I hope there's something better in some kind of afterlife. That's a reason why I hope this is all just a test.

On the brighter note though.. While the entire world might not be saveable, I've found it better on my sanity to use ignorance. It's easier to just try and do your best where you are, influence and teach who you can, and just try to end your life doing more 'good' than 'bad'.

You can't help the world, but at least you can try to do something about those close to you and involved with your life? If everyone just tried to deal with making things better locally, the entire world could be saved.

It's fun to dream isn't it?

And as a buffer to defend myself from possible flameage... No, I am not a terrorist bend on blowing up the world. Just saying that there might be something good behind it if such a thing does happen.

Yup.

Double Word.

With all the raw power and human greed floating around, it's just a matter of time before it all goes up in flames. Ten years? Ten-thousand years? It's gonna happen someday. When it does, all we can hope is that, if anyone survives, those that do will learn from our mistakes.

I also agree with you when you said that if you try to solve all the problems, you'll go insane. The best you can hope for in your own life is to do more good than harm, help those you can, and let the rest go. One thing I am sure of is that no one can be held responsible for what was beyond their power to fix.

^_^ I just hope someone reads all this stuff we've said and actually learns something. I'll put some of this stuff on my site sometime =P