Religion and Polictics

[CannedFries]

I would just like to ask where everyone stands in their opinion about Religion intertwined with our government. I find it absolutely wrong. Every country that is run with a religious backing are making a mockery of religion.

For example: The crusades. That may of happened a long time ago, but it was done by people parading around in the name of Christianity. Yet, everything that they did was not in what their relation was based on.

And today. Bush, even though we've all had enough of him uses God in 'his war'. I say it is his war because one excuse he made to use bomb Iraq was because of how they tried to kill his father.

The taliban. Though recently dissolved used the name of "Allah" to support their beliefs. Called themselves religious scholars!

[CannedFries]

I apologize for the typo in Politics! I wrote it twice as my server crashed :P

[Ted-Easton]

If that is your stance, then you may be a canditate for membership in The League of the Militant Godless, or TLMG.
Check the clubs and crews BBS for more info.

[Ted-Easton]

And what's with the picture?

[PreacherJ]

It's true-

As long as you can present your religion themed posts in an intelligent manner, the league is always on the lookout for new members, I believe.

[JMHX]

While the little tidbit about Iraq, while in favor of my personal views, is a bit uninformed, I can agree with the religion bit. Politics should be moving away from relgion, as it's slowly fading out and becoming quite a volatile area. The catholics know what I'm talking about. Politics should express clear views that aren't led by religion, but it won't happen.

Yeah, I think you'd be good for League of the Militant Godless as well. Talk to Spike about it if you're interested. And what's with the Frontman title, Preacher J? Gettin' a bit creative, I see.

Mwahaha.

[Der-Ubermensch]

At 3/11/03 08:39 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Politics should be moving away from relgion, as it's slowly fading out and becoming quite a volatile area. The catholics know what I'm talking about. Politics should express clear views that aren't led by religion, but it won't happen.

Your opinion is based on the fact that many religious leaders are corrupt beyond imagining. The ten commandments, applied justly and correctly, never were cause for injustice. Same goes with many political systems.

[CrustifiedOnCrass]

One nation under god(not capitalized for a reason)
That's why it's so fucked.

I don't believe religion should be in society, it does nothing but create biased bigots, and fear of your own humanity. It's a weakness, a security blanket used by the willfully ignorant. And any leader that's religious will fuck a country over with mostlly fundementalist right wing politics. Wow...look at bush(agsin, not capitalized for a reason).

If you want to work for the people, work for them, not a hypothetical mythological creature.

Which brings me to another point, where's the religion forum? I always like to have some fun there dissecting christianity for the fraud it usually is(can't say it's fully a fraud, I've met some real christians before).

[The-Last-Kumiho]

It saddens me that the christen religion still plays a large part in US government, especially since the country was founded on freedom of religous expression or lack of.
I was reading a book of essays on anarachic theory and one essay stated that religion is set up to inhibit human freedom, advancement and expression. This can be seen when our government puts restrictions of abortion, stem cell research and other contraversial issues (based on 'religoius moral values'). Some good has come from these restrictions, the Nazi regime did not have restrictions and abused, experimented on and killed people with disabilities and dieseases.
This does not excuse its active role in our government though, especially since many Americans are 'godless' or follow another religion.

[JMHX]

At 3/11/03 08:51 AM, MajinSoldier wrote:

At 3/11/03 08:39 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Politics should be moving away from relgion, as it's slowly fading out and becoming quite a volatile area. The catholics know what I'm talking about. Politics should express clear views that aren't led by religion, but it won't happen.

Your opinion is based on the fact that many religious leaders are corrupt beyond imagining. The ten commandments, applied justly and correctly, never were cause for injustice. Same goes with many political systems.

I agree about the Ten Commandments not leading to injustice. However, it's human nature to be injust, to take advantage of any opportunity to get ahead. While the commandments are a nice stepping-stone for a utopian society, they're never going to see full following.

[Jimsween]

I think that religon shouldn't interfere with the government's desiscion but it should not be completely removed from the government, like under god in the pledge. The decisions the government makes should be for the people just like they were meant to be. However from that dogmatic law thing in the bible it does say that we basically make the laws to get into because Jesus promised to Peter, "what you hold true on earth i will hold true in heaven." so we make the laws and we should make the laws to what we feel as a comfortable society.

[Anti-corruption]

why religion is always mixed with politics, law and science?

next time, any ass comes out with the idea of mixing his religion to the politics, science (cloning) and law. thus, making things complicated and fraction is created.

tell him to STFU (shut the fxxx up) and don't give a damn on what he say. after that, give him a stunner cuz stone cold is back and alive in RAW.

[JMHX]

At 3/11/03 09:42 PM, Anti-corruption wrote:

tell him to STFU (shut the fxxx up) and don't give a damn on what he say. after that, give him a stunner cuz stone cold is back and alive in RAW.

I'm going to pretend as if you never said this on the Politics forum and go on disliking you for all of your other pointless posts.

[Jlop985]

Religion is very important in my life. I am a Christian, and I do think the world would be better off if everyone was so. However, people have got a right to believe what they want to believe without any coercion. Also, some people misuse religion to back up their arguments and thus marginalize any opposition. I see it in church sometimes. Some people have an archaic view that has nothing to do with the Bible, but they say that what they believe is biblical and you're wrong and you will go to hell if you don't think like they think. Since religion may lead some to not consider other's arguments, and since religion may be misconstrued to stifle deliberation, I conclude that it has no place in democratic government. I should say, though, that politics would be cleaned up if people of high (and true) moral and religious stature were to be in it.

[mysecondstar]

i am a christian as well. a practicing Catholic. but i have to agree in that religion has no place in politics. we can ask God for guidance or to help us in time of need but to base all actions of state as a command of God is absolute fanaticism. we are becoming our enemy if we follow in such a way. al Quaeda did their terrible act in the name of Allah. now we are waging this war in the name of God. now we are one and the same.

it reminds me of the Simpsons when Lisa was Joan of Arc and Groundskeeper Willy captured her and both were told by God that the were to win the war for their respective countries...i believe the line was, "oh, i didn't know you two would be in the same room...umm... gotta run (heavenly chorus singing as God [ray of light] ascends through a door in the roof and slams door behind him)."

[JMHX]

We wonder why the world laughs at us when George W. Bush tells Newsweek that he was "...called to run for higher office by the almighty."

[PreacherJ]

At 3/11/03 08:39 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote:

::

Yeah, I think you'd be good for League of the Militant Godless as well. Talk to Spike about it if you're interested. And what's with the Frontman title, Preacher J? Gettin' a bit creative, I see.

I already talked to Spike about it- I'm not a true member of the group (clubs aren't really my thing), but I support the intelligent debate that the club represents, and thus have pledged support to uphold such ideals and to encourage others to as well. So, that's why I'm just a frontman, and not a full-fledged member.

[JMHX]

Well, it's all settled then.

And on another note: If you're going to have religion in politics, then don't let them intertwine too much. Like Bush saying that god is on OUR side. Who is US, Bushie? I don't remember going along with anything you've said so far.

[mysecondstar]

i wish they would play, "that's my Bush!" on comedy central again. it was a hilarious show.

[OlenWhitaker]

I must also agree that religion and politics should not overlap. While I wouldn't want a prospective President or other leader to give up his or her beliefs, they should not be the basis for policy decisions. If you can't make a good argument for something without bringing God into it, it's probably a bad idea.

For the record, I do believe in God, even though I don't adhere to any organized religion.

[lapslf]

well, if god exists he's an asshole. And the politics are full of assholes so i think religion and politics mix perfectly.

[OlenWhitaker]

Oh yeah, and why isn't there a religion and/or philosophy forum. I've got some ideas I'd like to kick around but they'd be out of place in a politics forum, and I certainally won't waste my time submitting them to the general forum.

[mysecondstar]

i say go for it. we are one nation under GOD, you know?

[Ted-Easton]

Politics forum is the place for religious dicsussion. Politics, religion, etc. Only intelligent discussion, any intelligent discussion.

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/13/03 04:42 PM, Veggiemeal wrote: well, if god exists he's an asshole. And the politics are full of assholes so i think religion and politics mix perfectly.

Heh. Well I think there's a few possibilities, although it doesn't matter which is right.

1) He's there but this is all just some divine test
2) He's not there and we're all just part of one big reincarnating lifestream
3) He's not there, we're on our own, there's nothing that binds us and death is the end.

But as I said, it doesn't matter which of those we believe. All that matters is our actions and how we treat others. Why is devotion and saying your rosary not important?

Well, if there IS a God... Why the hell would he need our prayers? He's all-powerful, and he knows what is in our hearts, so really there is no point in asking for something when he already knows. And if it's a test, you're on your own anyway.

The only thing religion brings with it is unity, but it seems to bring alot more hate and death nowadays than bringing us together.

[NoNameProphet]

At 3/13/03 04:34 PM, OlenWhitaker wrote: I must also agree that religion and politics should not overlap. .... If you can't make a good argument for something without bringing God into it, it's probably a bad idea.

For the record, I do believe in God, even though I don't adhere to any organized religion.

I don't know if there's a God or not, and I don't care to find out. If you read my last post you'll know why, because knowing if he's there doesn't effect what happens to us anyway.

I belong to no religion. I simply set my own boundaries on what I think is right, and treat people in ways that I would think is fair if I was in that situation. Always looking for the common good and such.

Now for a little rant on religion itself

I think it was Ghandi who once said that there is only one true religion, yet since all humans grow up in different areas and recieve different influences, it becomes fractured and that's why we have many religions. That's why you can see a common message among many religions.

If you look at many of the largest religions you often see then containing that familiar message of "treat others how you'd like to be treated". As simple as it sounds, simple answers are the ones we need more of. Complicated responses only lead to misinterpretation (and more crazy cults >_<).

The problem with the world today is that people are seperated BY religion. Some say don't take part in other's religious events (which causes segregation between you and potential friends. People won't like it if you respond with 'Christmas is evil, Jesus wasn't born then and he's a false prophet'... they just want to have some holiday fun.) Religion now is setting people apart with big boundaries, and causing alot of fighting. That's why I don't identify myself as a Christian or a Muslim... I am just a human. I am myself.

People take those tales a bit too seriously when you have massive wars going on just because some countries want to own certain pieces of holy-ground. That's a problem with mixing religion and politics.

Not only is there no need for mixing religion with politics, there is no need for religion at all. We just need to treat eachother right. Make just living with good actions a religion then if you must.If we just obeyed that basic rule we'd be alright. But we've got to see everyone as humans.

( P.S. I don't know if any of this has been said before, since I never read ALL the posts so I apologize if there's any overlap ^_^; )

( P.P.S I am not saying I want to get rid of all religious holidays and events. Partying and fun stuff is good.. keep it for tradition's sake. Just make sure you don't exclude anyone or do anyone harm. )

[NoNameProphet]

Jesus. That's a big post O.o (Bad Pun)

[OlenWhitaker]

...knowing if he's there doesn't effect what happens to us anyway.

How do you know that. To say that there might be a truth to be found, but you're not interested doesn't make much sense. If, as you suggested, God exists, and life is a test, maybe there is a right and wrong way to take the test and maybe the stakes are quite high. I'm not telling you what to believe, just that sticking your head in the sand and saying you don't care is a risky proposition at best.

Consider Pascal's wager. The mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) suggested looking at the question of seeking truth or not as an excercise in the mathematics of gambling.

For these purposes, I am using the word truth instead of God as Pascal did, because, unlike Pascal, I'm not trying to convice you to belive in God, just to seek truth in general and come to your own conclusion.

Imagine it as a game with two outcomes and two possible bets. This gives four possible outcomes:

1. Truth does not exist and you bet that truth does not exist. You gain little, if anything, by being right. At most, you gain some temporary, Earthly pleasure, which is itself of debateable value.

2. Truth does not exist and you bet that truth exists. You lose little, if anything, by being wrong. You lose only by this as much as you stand to gain from outcome #1.

3. Truth exists and you bet truth exists. You stand to gain something of infinite value (i.e. eternal life and happiness.) At the least, you will gain whatever personal strength may come from this knowledge.

4. Truth exists and you bet truth does not exist. You stand to lose something of infinite value (i.e. your soul, eternity in Hell.)

As low as you may consider the odds to be, if you accept that there is a greater than zero chance of truth (God) existing, then you shhould live your life as if truth (God) existed. You have one wager (does not exist) with a small gain against a major loss. The other wager (does exist) has a small loss and a major gain.

Again, I'm not telling you to believe in God; I'm telling you that to willfully ignore the question by saying you don't care, is not rational.

[NoNameProphet]

Buuut... Why should God care if I acknowledge his existence or not? He's a big boy, he doesn't need it. All that should matter to him is whether or not I am a good person.

That's the problem with religion. Their Gods MUST have recognition, or the MUST have you pray to them in a special way. That's an impossible thing for a God to ask because depending on where you're born, certain religions just won't reach you. And if people of those religions try to push that knowledge on in forms of crusades or missionaries, you end up with religious clashes and death.

Basically religion is just a big battlefield and I don't want to throw myself in the line of fire. It should be enough for whoever is the ruler if I just do a good job =P

[NoNameProphet]

You missed the big point of "Why should it matter to him if I think he exists or not"... Try and answer that and we'll see what happens next.