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It's all a matter of where your beliefs lie. In reality, we cannot prove nor disprove either theory. If one believes that science is the be all end all tool of the universe then they tend to believe the cut and dry form of evolution. If someone believes the bible word for word, then they tend to believe in strict creationism. Those who are somewhere in between usually tend to have a dual theory of some sort, where evolution is included in what the bible says or something along those lines.

All of these theories are valid, and none are proof. If anyone can PROVE to me that we came from monkeys without the help of a devine being I will fully accept evolution as the only option. If anyone can prove that evolution is just a slice of bologna on this sandwich of life, than I will go for strict creationism, but until then I'll keep my mind clear and my eyes open, just as every who claims the KNOW what happened should do.

THIS POST WILL HAVE MANY RANDOM CHARACTERS TO CATCH PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

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There. That should get your attention.

You guys don't seem to understand how evolution works.
Here's an example.
Let's say there's a group of 100 birds. Let's say that 2 of those birds had a random mutation at birth (YES. RANDOM MUTATION. It happens at every birth, that's why you don't look EXACTLY like your parents.) that made them have longer beaks than the other birds. The long-beaked trait allows those 2 birds to get at food more easily, and possibly to fend off attackers. Because of this, they may live longer, and therefore have more chances to pass on their genes. Those birds mate with other birds to make more long-beaked birds, because traits are passed from parents to offspring. The offspring then are able to survive longer because their adaption helps them.

Now lets say that some of the birds are born with shorter beaks. This makes it harder to get food and makes them more vulnerable to attackers. This would probably make those birds die faster because of their disadvantage. Eventually, since they don't get to mate as much, the birds would not get to pass on their short-beak trait, therefore weeding it out.

That explains it fairly well. keep in mind this is an EXAMPLE. Different species may evolve differently because the same trait may give the creature an advantage or disadvantage depending on it's habitat.

I think that humans may have stopped evolving. Why? Because in this technological age, a disadvantage doesn't matter as much, depending on what it is. Since we are so dependant on sight, a blind person would have trouble, but many disadvantages are dampened by the fact that we can just not do anything that uses that trait. If you are a little stupid in the head, you could get a labor job to make a living, if you are disabled in some way but are very smart, you could be a teacher or writer. Since we can do so many different things with our lives, we are not as handicapped by misfortune.

My hands are tired.

No humans are still evolving. It just takes thousands of years to evolve.

Thank you, Dentaltaco, for putting this thread back on track.

And, Der_Pandar, how about actually contributing to this thread, rather than insulting people?

At 8/20/06 01:55 PM, Dentaltaco wrote:

Some really intelligent shit

That was great. But still, I don't see why this would interfere with Chaotic Creationism.

At 8/20/06 01:55 PM, Dentaltaco wrote: I think that humans may have stopped evolving. Why? Because in this technological age, a disadvantage doesn't matter as much, depending on what it is. Since we are so dependant on sight, a blind person would have trouble, but many disadvantages are dampened by the fact that we can just not do anything that uses that trait. If you are a little stupid in the head, you could get a labor job to make a living, if you are disabled in some way but are very smart, you could be a teacher or writer. Since we can do so many different things with our lives, we are not as handicapped by misfortune.

Actually we're still evolving, it's just that many of these mutations have been allowed to stay, both good and bad. That's why we have so many people with glasses, people using braces, people having their appendix taken out, people with diabetes etc. Blurry vision, crooked teeth, appendix problems would have all been solved through evolution before, but now these people produce offspring and pass on those defective genes. Even dwarfism would have probably be extremely rare. If we were living in the jungle or on the savannah, extremely short limbs wouldn't have much of an advantage.

I remember one time we had a family of raccoons outside our home that would rummage through our garbage. There was about 4 or 5 cubs and a mother. Instead of chasing them off, we put food out for them to divert them from the garbage and give them leftovers and stuff that we wouldn't eat anyway. Well one day, we forgot to put food out for them and there wasn't even garbage out there because it was just after garbage day. Instead we had some dog food inside the house and we opened up the door to see what they would do. All of them stayed outside just staring at us. Then all of a sudden one of the cubs were crazy enough to walk in the house and started to eat the dog food. The rest continued to stay out and the mother watched in horror, pacing back in forth making weird noises. She thought her cub was in danger. Eventually the cub went back to the mother. Anyway, it was a good example of how evolution works in that out of 5 cubs, only one was brave enough to step through the door, walk right beside humans, against the wishes of its mother. That brave nature could be used to its advantage or it could get it killed someday in the future. Either way, it stood out among the rest and that's what evolution is. Dogs were once wolves that used it to their advantage. One wolf pup or grown wolf that may have been cast out of the pack may have had less fear of humans, prompting it to beg for food from them. Eventually a new race of wolf was born that was more mild mannered and comfortable with humans. Finally after 15-10 thousand years, we have many diverse dog breeds and it became one of the most successful species on the planet because they found a way to live in harmony with humans.

At 8/20/06 03:48 PM, BigBlueBalls wrote: ... most successful species on the planet because they found a way to live in harmony with humans.

There was no ‘finding a way to live in harmony with humans’.

Humans and dogs are both very socially driven animals, and from the offset we were compatible. It would be the simple case of taking a wolf puppy and raising it around humans.

This can be seen today in wolf puppies being domesticated.

^Also, can be viewed the other way by feral children who were raised by wild dogs or wolves.

At 8/20/06 04:11 PM, o_r_i_g_i_n_a_l wrote: ^Also, can be viewed the other way by feral children who were raised by wild dogs or wolves.

About the whole dog thing, its true that wolves and humans were potentially compatible from the get go. But you should keep in mind that humans bred the dogs as well, resulting in a sort of artificial evolution. For instance, german Shepherds are not a naturally occuring phenomenon.

Yeah, I agree. Humans are still evolving. We might evolve a resistance against birth control for instance. Or, people who are more likely to pursue careers instead of children are getting evolved away. Stuff like that.

Our evolution is present in the form of Eugenics!

humans de-evolve, the intelligent ones can't be bothered to have children to interfere in their careers and get removed from the gene pool, while the less intelligent people breed like rats.

You have to remember that Evolution has a lot of holes... In fact, that's why I trust it so much. Science does not claim to know anything, and science certainly doesn't say that some guy made everything and then told a human being to write it all down.

I'm sorry, I just don't trust creationism. It's too perfect.

At 8/20/06 06:33 PM, Korriken wrote: humans de-evolve, the intelligent ones can't be bothered to have children to interfere in their careers and get removed from the gene pool, while the less intelligent people breed like rats.

*sigh* There's no proof that intelligence is genetic. Evolution only works on a genetic level.

Humans are not devolving because we aren't killing the stupids.

At 8/20/06 07:39 PM, Sinthe wrote:

*sigh* There's no proof that intelligence is genetic. Evolution only works on a genetic level.

Humans are not devolving because we aren't killing the stupids.

Well, Intelligence is influenced by genes. Its not rigidly determined, but its affected. Take Down Syndrome, for instance.

And BTW, we don't need to kill the stupids. They do that themselves.

Ever heard of these?....

At 8/20/06 09:13 PM, KingCharles wrote:

At 8/20/06 07:39 PM, Sinthe wrote:

*sigh* There's no proof that intelligence is genetic. Evolution only works on a genetic level.

Humans are not devolving because we aren't killing the stupids.

Well, Intelligence is influenced by genes. Its not rigidly determined, but its affected. Take Down Syndrome, for instance.

And BTW, we don't need to kill the stupids. They do that themselves.

Ever heard of these?....

I had a discussion about this on another forum:

Guy1:We should kill gays, retards and the physicly disabled. They wreck the gene pool.

Me:Well, gays don't exactly add to the gene pool, so ya. But no, people with mental or physical disablilities can still do stuff. Look at steven hawking. And not all physical and mental disabilities are genetic.

Guy1:But think of how much better steven hawking would be if he didnt have those problems.

Guy2:Think of what use he would be if we threw him out to the wolves. Besides, the guy had kids of his own, and they were perfectly fine.

At 8/20/06 09:13 PM, KingCharles wrote:

At 8/20/06 07:39 PM, Sinthe wrote:

*sigh* There's no proof that intelligence is genetic. Evolution only works on a genetic level.

Humans are not devolving because we aren't killing the stupids.

Well, Intelligence is influenced by genes. Its not rigidly determined, but its affected. Take Down Syndrome, for instance.

And BTW, we don't need to kill the stupids. They do that themselves.

Ever heard of these?....

But disorders like Downs aren't passed through the family... Both parents can be perfectly normal and they can have a Downs baby. Disorders like that are the result of trisomies.

At 8/20/06 09:44 PM, Sinthe wrote:

But disorders like Downs aren't passed through the family... Both parents can be perfectly normal and they can have a Downs baby. Disorders like that are the result of trisomies.

This is True, but still, intelligence is affected somewhat by genes.

At 8/20/06 04:09 PM, o_r_i_g_i_n_a_l wrote: There was no ‘finding a way to live in harmony with humans’.

Humans and dogs are both very socially driven animals, and from the offset we were compatible. It would be the simple case of taking a wolf puppy and raising it around humans.

This can be seen today in wolf puppies being domesticated.

Nobody knows for sure what happened. The theory I read was that dogs came from wolves cast out of the pack who had to scrounge for food, therefore were more willing to cooperate with another species to survive. Wolves, straight from the wilderness, they are a different breed. While it may be possible to domesticate them from pups, you will also run into more than one that is willing to challenge your lead. Lions and tigers and bears can be domesticated too, but nobody would recommend them as pets. Dogs aren't like this, while some may be more domineering than others, rarely any of them get as domineering as wolves when they're at their worst. That's the difference between wild animals and what we call domesticated.

OK, we're getting off track again....

In anycase, in response to sdhonda, yes, evolution does involve things like genetic disorders (Stephen Hawking has Lou Gerig's disease. Its surprising he's not dead yet, actually...). But that is only part of it. Genetic disorders are examples of random changes that are usually culled from our race just by circumstance. Other random changes, ones that are positive, are usually passed on through offspring, who in turn pass it on to more.

Human evolution is still happening, but it has been slowed. Retarded people and disabled people can still function (somewhat) in society, and occasionally pass on their genes.

At 8/21/06 02:15 AM, KingCharles wrote:

At 8/20/06 09:44 PM, Sinthe wrote:

But disorders like Downs aren't passed through the family... Both parents can be perfectly normal and they can have a Downs baby. Disorders like that are the result of trisomies.

This is True, but still, intelligence is affected somewhat by genes.

Proof?

You could be born to parents who have an IQ of 100 between them and graduate from Harvard 22 years later.

The THEORY of evolution is still just that. A theory. Yes, there is evidence. No, there is no definite proof.
Creationism is just an alternative theory, and no-one has any right to tell someone else what to think. It is up to every person to research both sides of the story and make his/her own INFORMED decision.
Yes, the creation story is unlikely to be true. But still no-one has completely disproved it. Just as no-one has completely proved that evolution really happened. Until there is definite proof it is up to people to decide for themselves, not to have it decided for them.

At 8/22/06 01:19 PM, Sinthe wrote:

At 8/21/06 02:15 AM, KingCharles wrote:

At 8/20/06 09:44 PM, Sinthe wrote:

But disorders like Downs aren't passed through the family... Both parents can be perfectly normal and they can have a Downs baby. Disorders like that are the result of trisomies.

This is True, but still, intelligence is affected somewhat by genes.

Proof?

You could be born to parents who have an IQ of 100 between them and graduate from Harvard 22 years later.

to some degree...

i totally believe in evolution for many reasons. one being, if god created man in his own image, than why doesnt anyone look the same? better yet, how come there are so many differant races? ill tell you why.....evolution. see, all kinds of little organisms spawned and started evolving into bigger better beings(survival of the fittest), and seeing that differant races live in differant regions, their bodies and skin color adapted to their area.

i can believe that there was a jesus. but a god....no. i think jesus had everyone tripping off molded bread and brainwashed them into thinking that if they were bad they would have to answer to god. that way everyone would follow rules.

At 8/20/06 02:54 PM, sdhonda wrote: No humans are still evolving. It just takes thousands of years to evolve.

humans do evolve. if you walk on rocks with bare feet everyday, eventually your feet get rugged. if you climb mountains and move boulders, your muscles get bigger. your body evolves to adapt to the conditions you put it through.

At 8/22/06 06:50 PM, BolognaWerewolf wrote:

At 8/20/06 02:54 PM, sdhonda wrote: No humans are still evolving. It just takes thousands of years to evolve.

humans do evolve. if you walk on rocks with bare feet everyday, eventually your feet get rugged. if you climb mountains and move boulders, your muscles get bigger. your body evolves to adapt to the conditions you put it through.

Er, thats not evolution, that's just changing physically. Evolutioon, as we're making it, is the result of some mutation to a species that, if good, will stay on them, and therefore cause evolution.

"Definite Proof?" Nothing can really be definitely proved if you're hell bent on disproving it.

Here's the evolution vs creation scorecard:

Evolution:
has been observed and demonstrated in lower life forms such as bacteria (because they reproduce so fast, the process is millions of times faster to watch).

Creation:
is based off of an ancient text by an UNKNOWN HUMAN AUTHOR. God didn't sit down at a desk and jot out Genesis. And if you think he did, I'd like to hear how you know. Because, (to quote somebody else in this thread) "YOU WEREN'T THERE."

Two theories: one has massive and practically inarguable proof, the other has a few pieces of paper of unknown origins.

At 8/22/06 08:29 PM, KingCharles wrote: Evolution:
has been observed and demonstrated in lower life forms such as bacteria (because they reproduce so fast, the process is millions of times faster to watch).

How has it been demonstrated please tell me.

At 8/27/06 03:48 PM, therealsylvos wrote: How has it been demonstrated please tell me.

Microevolution, anyone?