FTAA

[Ethiopian-Fat-Camp]

I am not going to even BEGIN to express what i think of this...but this site can. Its not that I'm lazy, but I believe this site can explain to you this problem. So here it is...

http://www.globalexchange.org/ftaa/topten.html

[shorbe]

I really have no sympathy for most people who complain about globalisation, especially in first world countries.

If people refused to support anything but their own community and local businesses, then there wouldn't be a problem. They don't though. They want the cheapest or "best" product, even if that means shooting themselves in the foot. That's their own stupid fault if they play with fire and get burnt.

Furthermore, people complain about governments doing this or that. Well, if corrupt or weak politicians sell away our freedoms, who is to blame? Surely us for electing corrupt or weak politicians.

Apathy is the problem, and representative democracy is a misnomer. Then again, they also say people get the governments they deserve, so maybe corrupt or weak governments are really only a reflection of society at large.

I'm just waiting for the apocalypse.

shorbe

[Slizor]

Furthermore, people complain about governments doing this or that. Well, if corrupt or weak politicians sell away our freedoms, who is to blame? Surely us for electing corrupt or weak politicians.

I find it hard to argue against globalism since I would just be a hypocrite(sp)
Anyway is there sucha thing as a non-corrupt politican?

[Ethiopian-Fat-Camp]

At 5/19/01 10:04 PM, Crystal_Chrome wrote: I am not going to even BEGIN to express what i think of this...but this site can. Its not that I'm lazy, but I believe this site can explain to you this problem. So here it is...

http://www.globalexchange.org/ftaa/topten.html

_______________________________________________________
Hey, keep in mind that this isn't just businesses it ruins, its lives that it ruins. And if its the politician's fault, well, I agree that It won't be better anywhere else. Winston Churchill quoted something of the sort that "Democracy is a terrible form of government today and ironically its the best government the world has."

However there can be different things done compared to this new FTAA. Number ten on the list I gave is that there are PROVEN ALTERNATIVES to this.

[Mos]

At 5/19/01 10:04 PM, Crystal_Chrome wrote: I am not going to even BEGIN to express what i think of this...but this site can. Its not that I'm lazy, but I believe this site can explain to you this problem. So here it is...

http://www.globalexchange.org/ftaa/topten.html

Most of those listed really haven't been linked to the FTAA. I can say that, since I started posting here, the forum has become 12x more popular. Does that mean that I caused it to become 12x more popular?

[Slizor]

Most of those listed really haven't been linked to the FTAA. I can say that, since I started posting here, the forum has become 12x more popular. Does that mean that I caused it to become 12x more popular?

You're not thinking of cause and affect there.

[Raptorman]

Most of the free trade critisizm seems to be a can't see the forest for the trees attitude. Talking about ruined lives and busineses implies that there is a limited amount of wealth in the world. There is not. Wealth is both created and destroyed. How, you might ask. Simple, wealth is created when something is raised from a lower value state to a higher value one. For example, sand is almost worthless. However, blow it into a drinking glass and it becomes worth something, form it into a microchip and it becomes worth a lot. Wealth is destroyed by the opposite i.e. consumption or destruction.

With this in mind let us introduce two caveman tribes, the basketweavers and the spearmakers who are, intrestingly enough, very skilled at basketweaving and spearmaking respectivly. Now the basketweaving (BW) tribe takes twice the man/hours to make a spear as the spearmaking (SM) tribe. The reverse is true of the SM tribe weaving baskets. "Aha!" thought the elders of both tribes, "Why don't we trade and not have to waste resources doing what someone else can do better?" and so a summit was set to agree on a trade pact.

The first hurdle came from the BW tribe's spearmaking union #106. "If you no longer will buy our spears, how will we feed our familys?"

The elders mulled this over and came to a decition. "Yes, you will no longer be able to make spears." said the elders. "You will instead hunt or gather which is something we do as well as the SM tribe. You will use cheaper spears to do it with, saving resourses while you collect more food for the village." The spearmakers were not happy to change their carrers but accepted the elders judgement.

The next hurdle came from the rock hugger society of the SM tribe. "The BW destroy the enviroment." They said. "They do not replant the trees they use to make things. How can we, in good faith, use things that are made by destrying our enviroment?"

The elders once again mulled this problem and reached a judgement. "The BW tribe is not a rich one like we are." said the elders."When we were poor like they, we destroyed the enviroment just as they do. Protecting the enviroment is expensive. This will help them to become richer so that they will on day be able to afford the enviromental protection we enjoy." The rock huggers were not happy but accepted the elders reasoning and left.

Finally, a trade agreement was reached and both sides became healthier, wealthier, and wiser and were able to evole into humans so they could have the same disscussion all over again.

[Slizor]

I'm sorry, do you know what globalisation is?

[Raptorman]

At 5/24/01 03:18 PM, Slizor wrote: I'm sorry, do you know what globalisation is?

How about the macroscopic evolution of the afore mentioned subject. If you're going to rebut please state a reason and facts to back up your viewpoint.

[Slizor]

At 5/24/01 03:35 PM, Raptorman wrote:

Well in your example the poor tribe destroy the enviorment, but in the world the rich ones are destroying the enviorment and having unfair "trade agreements" with the poorer "tribes"

[Raptorman]

Energy useage is directly linked to domestic output. I hear complaints that the US has 6% of the world's population and consumes 25% of the energy. Few people then note that the US creates roughly 25% of the world's wealth. As a country develops, it consumes more energy. There is not current shortage of energy, there is a shortage of energy production facilities. This can be easilly solved but the course is often rough as it is blocked by well meaning but misguided individuals who aren't willing to take the enviromental losses nessicary.

This point being conceded, I would like to point out that enviromental aid are expensive, smoke stack scrubber, catylitic converters, tree plant and harvesting ect. all cost money and a lot of it. Developed countries have the luxury of being able to do these things, poorer ones do not. These are the countries where slash and burn, clear cutting, ect. still occur, not the developed ones.

How is a trade agreement inherintly unfair? A zero tarrif is a zero tarrif any way you look at it. The poorer countries actually stand more to gain from this as the wealther has more money to spend. A good example of this is pre NAFTA Mexican leatherworkers were concerned about US imports. US leather is worked by machine and therefore less expensive than handworked (Mexican) leather. Post NAFTA, the leatherworkers discovered that the US had a taste for the handworked good. Subsequently, the demand for Mexican leather has almost doubled since NAFTA greatly aiding the leatherworkers.

I won't say there will be no short term problems with free trade but in the long run greater overall wealth benefits everyone finatually and enviromentally.

[Ethiopian-Fat-Camp]

Alright bud, you did NOT read that link, did you? People are losing jobs. About that handmade leather bullshit, well, you see, their business only improved. However, other jobs that were running just as well or worse than the leather shop, were SHUT DOWN. Not only in Mexico are people hurt, but 400,000 Americans lost their jobs after NAFTA as a cause of NAFTA. 1 Million Mexicans are now under less than minimum wage and 8 million FAMILIES have goone from middle class into poverty. Their are also PROVEN ALTERNATIVES.
Go to the link again, the black and white which you read shows the colorless hopes for jobs in North America, and soon, South America.

[Slizor]

This point being conceded, I would like to point out that enviromental aid are expensive, smoke stack scrubber, catylitic converters, tree plant and harvesting ect. all cost money and a lot of it. Developed countries have the luxury of being able to do these things, poorer ones do not. These are the countries where slash and burn, clear cutting, ect. still occur, not the developed ones.

You seem to be blind of the fact that America is rich, yet its not actually using enviromental aids.

How is a trade agreement inherintly unfair? A zero tarrif is a zero tarrif any way you look at it. The poorer countries actually stand more to gain from this as the wealther has more money to spend.

Do you know why they get those zero tarrifs? have there products bought cheaply and sold for alot, the workers exploited? Its because they say "We can just go somewhere else" The poorer countries gain nothing since their workers get paid nothing, the products are bought for nothing and those people could have been doing something which will actually make them money

I won't say there will be no short term problems with free trade but in the long run greater overall wealth benefits everyone finatually and enviromentally.

That is bullshit

[shorbe]

Crystal: You seem to forget that this has happened dozens of times in human history.

I'm sure when people made the jump from subsistence living to agriculture, a whole lot of hunters were made redundant. New jobs became available though. The same happened in the modern age. Before this, not a lot of people worked in offices. As manual jobs disappeared, clerical ones appeared.

Ultimately, I think things work themselves out like that.

Slizor: Half the problem with third world countries is not with the first world countries exploiting them but with their corrupt governments. Those governments are the ones selling off the public utilities and pocketing the funds.

Here's another simple concept for trade, and why tarriffs become irrelevant and unnecessary. If people support their local industry and their community, then they won't come under threat. They don't though. Then they complain when their local industries go under and they lose jobs. People are stupid. They don't take their custom elsewhere. They keep coming back for more pain. They're like cheerleaders who get date raped but keep going back to frat parties and getting tanked.

A classic example of that is banks. Everyone in this country whines about our four major banks putting people before profits. Suggest they take their money to a smaller, friendlier bank or credit union though, and no one does so. I say they deserve all they get then.

Furthermore, small countries (including supposedly first world countries such as Australia) are stupid for whoring themselves to countries such as America.

They have no self respect. They get greedy and so want to attract the rich man and so whore themselves to him. Then they wonder why he takes it from the cheapest whore he can find.

It's far easier to whine than take a stand on anything though.

I say put up, or shut up, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be part of the global community, then do so without complaint. Otherwise, be like a country such as Bhutan or pre-industrial Japan and lock yourselves away.

shorbe

[Slizor]

Slizor: Half the problem with third world countries is not with the first world countries exploiting them but with their corrupt governments. Those governments are the ones selling off the public utilities and pocketing the funds.

Quite, examples?

Here's another simple concept for trade, and why tarriffs become irrelevant and unnecessary. If people support their local industry and their community, then they won't come under threat. They don't though. Then they complain when their local industries go under and they lose jobs. People are stupid. They don't take their custom elsewhere. They keep coming back for more pain. They're like cheerleaders who get date raped but keep going back to frat parties and getting tanked.

Surely thats not the third world countries fault?

They have no self respect. They get greedy and so want to attract the rich man and so whore themselves to him. Then they wonder why he takes it from the cheapest whore he can find.

I'm not suprised they want the money, have you seen how much debt they are in!?!?

[shorbe]

Slizor: Corrupt third world governments? Where do we start? How about warlords throughout most of Africa?

How about Suharto (the ex Indonesian prime minister anyway) channelling funds from the IMF (or was it the World Bank?) through his own bank account. These were funds that were specifically given in hard currency for stability after the Asian economic crisis. He converted them to Rupee, made a quick $60M and almost got away with it.

Let's not even mention the Phillipines. I don't think they have a word for honesty in their language, at least not for politicians.

There are countless tales of similar things happening in South America. That's what that whole "Evita" thing was about. She and her husband were the Marcos' of Argentina. A century ago, it was the sixth wealthiest nation on the planet.

Probably the most tragic example though is that of Ethiopia. When Eritrea broke away from Ethiopia in the nineties, the Ethiopian government was actually selling grain to fight a war against Eritrea. I don't just mean foreign aid grain. I mean their own grain also. All so two of the poorest countries on the planet could fight a senseless war while millions of their people starved.

It's precisely the fault of the third world countries. If their governments weren't so corrupt, they wouldn't have half the problems they do. The people are fickle and easily fooled. I mean, look at Yugoslavia. Some of them actually came to their senses about Milosevic, but he still had widespread support. The same of Estrada in the Phillipines. These people want our help? They can't help themselves!

As I've said, the debt is largely their own fault. If they got rid of corrupt politicians who bled them dry, most of these countries would be able to do wonders. Besides which, renegging on a debt is no excuse. They'd expect others to pay them, why not the converse also?

shorbe

[Slizor]

The people you are blaming are the governments, but its the people who are getting hurt. Basically what you are saying is why don't they have a revolution, well despite what you may think a revolution is quite hard to come by, thats why people make a big deal out of them.

[shorbe]

If the French can organise a revolution, anyone can.

shorbe