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At 8/3/06 02:20 PM, mofomojo wrote: I mean, I'm no engineer

You don't have to be.

Take a piece of coat hanger wire, and hold it over an open flame for a while. The metal will get red hot if you hold it there long enough, but it won't melt... no surprise there, the flame isn't hot enough to melt it, you'd have to get a blowtorch to do that. But you know what you can do with that piece of red hot coat hanger wire?

You can bend more curves into it than a pretzel, with ease.

Now imagine this same situation, on a much GRANDER scale. Instead of a wire hanger over a lighter, you have aproximatly several thousand gallons of burning jetfuel heating up the metal infrastructure of a skyscraper. Not hot enough to cause the frame to melt, but there's enough downward force from the above floors to cause the girders to bend and collapse in on themselves thanks to the heat. Once one floor collapses, that's it, inertia kicks in and runs amok.

That's the simplified version of what happened to the WTC on 911.

You want a conspiracy? Go harass the guy who had one of the other towers demolished on 9/13 because of "collateral damage" despite the fact that his building was structurally sound anyway.

... please tell me I didn't just tell a minor to go play with lighters. :-[

I don't give a shit. But I still think it's weird how both towers fell exactly the same way vertically..

Woohoo, books and internet websites that you don't even have the balls to cite for fear of having your precious hypothesis ripped to shreds.

"The World Government: 9/11 - the prelude to WWIII?" - combining the most convincing factological evidence (nothing to do with watching the collision frame by frame, it tells more about the reaction and the actions of the US government)
"The Shadow of Zion" - the topic isn't viewed in details, but there are still some useful pieces of information.
Logic
And, of course, "Loose Change" (60% in it are crap, but some of the evidences are just indisputable)

Happy now?

Ok, I think you're all wrong. The WTC conspiracy has been unravelled by 17 year old scottish kid in a fishing village in the ass end of nowhere.

Right.

Someone wrecked the WTC. No-one owned up, and bush thought "shit, if I dont fins someone o blame Im gonna lose the election" combined with "I realy need that pipeline through afghanistan" and Bin Laden was too prefect NOT to blame. Makes more sense than any of your theories.

Im basing that on the 'Hijackers being alive' claim, if thats bull I take it all back lol

At 8/3/06 04:51 PM, emmytee wrote: Ok, I think you're all wrong. The WTC conspiracy has been unravelled by 17 year old scottish kid in a fishing village in the ass end of nowhere.

If Einstein had unravelled the conspiracy instead of the boy, will the same arguments (these 40% that are hard evidence) be more persuative to you? Can't you analyze the available info and have your own opinion?

And by the way, nobody here said anything about the REASON of the attacks, so it's not very smart of you to make fun of something you don't understand, right?

At 8/3/06 06:45 PM, -Glaciar- wrote:

.

If Einstein had unravelled the conspiracy instead of the boy, will the same arguments (these 40% that are hard evidence) be more persuative to you? Can't you analyze the available info and have your own opinion?

I have and do. I'd ask einstien why he felt compelled to lie for 60% of his argument, and what that says about his credibility. The ONLY evidence you conspiracy peeps have suggests that the government lied. Considering the US government lies about petty much everything, this should be no surprise to anyone. What you dont have is a single shred of evidence to tie bush to any of this. My opinion is that the government lied about some facts about 9/11, and until we know what else they lied about and why, no-one will every know what happened.

And by the way, nobody here said anything about the REASON of the attacks, so it's not very smart of you to make fun of something you don't understand, right?

A: That sentance make no sense anyway
B:Whos making fun?
C: Its not me who uses 9/11 to give myself some sense of purpose, and to pretend to be James Bond on a top secret mission to save the world, instead of some slob on a forum.
That sounds like a lack of understanding to me.

bush did it in A phsyciloglcal attack on the us citizens to try to mack US be believe that osama did it so he cod attack the middle east and mack money off of it,

I've heard good arguements on both sides as to whethere there was it was a conspiracy theory or not.

Your not going to get all the information on the topic on one webstie, because chances are that singular websites is biased.

go to the FBI's website and you'll see bin laden is not wanted for the 9/11 attacks despite media hype, they never found enough connections linking him to the atack. Bin Laden being the supposed leader of al queda that pretty much knocks them out of the realm of possibility.

No one has been found responisble for the attacks, but we have invaded countries based off this false information.

i'm personally biased towards the conspiracy theory for the fact that the government has coincidentally lacked the intention to try and degrade it.

At 8/3/06 04:46 PM, -Glaciar- wrote: Happy now?

Very. Because a google search on each of those turned up conspiracy theory websites written by pseudo intellectuals who haven't had their medication lately.

At 8/3/06 08:07 PM, super_stick333 wrote: bush did it in A phsyciloglcal attack on the us citizens to try to mack US be believe that osama did it so he cod attack the middle east and mack money off of it,

And a geriatric, cross-dressing Jimmy Hoffa lives in my garage. RIGHT.

Have you seen the cost of gas lately? Do you know how much this war is going to cost the United States in the long run? Have you tried to joke with the armed guard at the airport? What could POSSIBLY make you believe that the U.S. Government is benefiting from any of this?

At 8/3/06 09:06 PM, ProductOfSociety wrote: go to the FBI's website and you'll see bin laden is not wanted for the 9/11 attacks despite media hype,

MURDER OF U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; CONSPIRACY TO MURDER U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH

USAMA BIN LADEN

and further on down the page...

CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

9/11 or not, you don't wind up on the FBI'S 10 Most Wanted List for nothing.

i'm personally biased towards the conspiracy theory for the fact that the government has coincidentally lacked the intention to try and degrade it.

... you know what, forget it. I'm not even going to bother anymore. Don't let me stop you from living out your Marvel Comics fantasy.

i do consider loose change to be a bs example of an insight into the 9/11 conspiracy theory. They're a mockery to the alternative media.

as for the molten steel the WTC's were supposedly made of;
barely any investigation was taken into the wtc rubble, it was all wisked about to demolition before any real investigation could be done. It's not that hard to forge pictures and blueprints etc. If you throw away whats left of the wreckage then just slip in some false documents- bam, you got yourself "proof" that something was that it wasnt.

i've heard conspiracies that people like avery and alex jones an infultration in the alternative media there to destract us from the "real perpatrators" of 9/11. I've seen some pretty damn good evidence of that to.

but then again its all only evidence, on both sides, not proof.

At 8/2/06 01:13 AM, mrshizel wrote: ok everyone is arguing about bush bombing the world tradecenters and some people say the terrorist did it i want some proof and cant make up my mind who did it or not?!

Both. The government of America for pigging around and assfucking the planet for centuries, is to blame somewhat. And the terrorist assholes who blew up the towers filled with civilians to take out anger on our government.

At 8/3/06 02:58 PM, -Puzz- wrote: I don't give a shit. But I still think it's weird how both towers fell exactly the same way vertically..

It makes sense. They blew out the top-middle floors, and the top-middle part of the structures were damaged. The immense weight of the floors above collapsed the buildings.

And they didn't fall completely straight down. The towers didn't just burn to the borders of their foundations, they also destroyed some of the buildings around them.

It pisses me off that Americans don't know more about the WTC attacks. It's been about 5 years, and if our media sucks cock so badly that if it hasn't gone through how this happened enough already then I have a new thing to be pissed off about.

At 8/4/06 12:49 AM, bradford1 wrote: It makes sense. They blew out the top-middle floors, and the top-middle part of the structures were damaged. The immense weight of the floors above collapsed the buildings.

Indeed. The shock of several mega-tons of building crashing down on the floor infrastructure beneath, would have surely begun the catastrophe of bringing the whole tower down. A skyscraper building is not designed for sudden tensile strength - it is designed for sturdy, compressive forces, and the swaying force of the high winds at those heights.

And they didn't fall completely straight down. The towers didn't just burn to the borders of their foundations, they also destroyed some of the buildings around them.

Exactly. Common knowledge is that the two World Trade Center towers fell, on September 11th. Many seem to either forget, or are ignorant of, that in fact 7 buildings fell that day. All of which constituted as a section of the WTC.

It pisses me off that Americans don't know more about the WTC attacks.

You and me both. =\

It's been about 5 years, and if our media sucks cock so badly that if it hasn't gone through how this happened enough already then I have a new thing to be pissed off about.

I have no idea what other people were doing that day, but when it happened (when I was in grade 9), I had my head glued to the tv, listening on what was going on, and everything that I could listen and watch, really. Nearly all the major stations were reporting on it - any channel that normally had news on it, started reporting on this major event.

It was just so surreal.

...And then this 19 year old, in college, supposedly, asks this.

ok everyone is arguing about bush bombing the world tradecenters and some people say the terrorist did it i want some proof and cant make up my mind who did it or not?!

Wow. I mean, how sheltered can you be?

Plus the crappy grammar and spelling highlights how much he must care...

For those of you who missed the "What really happened" topic here are my list of sources.

Deja Vu
This sounds familar

A nice pic of the pentagon
A better pic so you can do the math yourself

A link to a site about the pentagons 3rd layer punch out.

Terrorist who are alive.
And the significance of this? It only tells you that there is no truth in the identity of the hijackers and linking them to Al Queada that justified the invasion of afganistan.

Some fun facts about Osama's apearances

For you kids that believe the government knew about it but did nothing, learn this: They did do SOMETHING. Bush signed order W199-EYE in early 2001 taking the FBI off the Bin Laden investigation. At the same time, Mr. Osama was being treated in an American hospital in Dubai while meeting with CIA agents.

They didn't do it? So how come for the first time in NORAD's history, power was taken away from generals and given directly to the vice-president Dick Cheyney? Might I add that in June 2001, Cheyney signed an order preventing NORAD from being able to shoot down hijacked aircrafts? NORAD recently released 30 hours of tape from 9/11 and you can hear them telling saying that they have no permission to shoot down the aircrafts and to "try and divert the aircraft because we are negative to engage"

How about the blast points on the towers? How about the engineers of the towers saying they engineered them to take MULTIPLE commercial aircrafts and still stand. How about fire fighters and janitors saying they heard explosions ? It was clearly a controled demolition that takes days to set up.

And building 7? According to the official story it collapsed from fire when if you watch the video, you can see the most perfect controlled demolition, and Larry Silverstine admiting them "pulling it"

And how about 7 of the supposed hijackers being found alive in the middle east and giving BBC interviews? Pakistani ISI Chief Gen. Ahmad orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta who was, according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings.

While Marvin Bush was head of security on the World Trade center on 9/11 (his last day coincidentaly), his daddy, Bush Senior was at the Ritz Carlton with the head of the Bin Laden family, who was flown out to Saudi Arabia 3 days after the attack with another 160 members of the Bin Laden family.

Now if you think "Oh the governent would never do something like this." then read operation northwoods (link below- you need acrobat reader to view it ) http://www.infowars...pages/northwoods.pdf

If the governement has nothing to hide, why don't they reopen an investigation and let honest people run it? After an orgy of evidence, "The terrorists did it" seems like the conspiracy theory to me. Especialy considering the fact that Bin Laden was trained by the CIA in the early 70's and he was code named Tim Osman.

i would like to add to that.

there were several skyscrapers more lowly engineered and older than the twin towers, which had from 4 to 10 floors burning from 9 to 24 hours, but they did not collapse. The twin towers were burning for approximately 54 minutes and both buildings collapsed.

the tower that was hit first by a plane was the building that was second to collapse

proffesional pilots and aircrafters say that a commercial airliner would not be accurate enough or fast enough to crash into the towers like that.
People who had a good look at the plane said it was black with no windows, the only conclusion would have been a us military plane.

flight 77, who's aircraft was made by rolls royce, took the turbo engines from the pentagon crash and say it's no engine that rolls royce engineer has made or seen, ever. the rolls royce turbo engines are about 9 feet in diameter but the engine found was only 5 foot in diameter, so it wasn't flight 77.

all footage from the security cameras during the attack of the pentagon were convescated by the fbi and not shown to the public.

a man wrote of his experience of the 9/11 stated victims of the attack were visited by fbi and were told to "take the money and shut up"

security seceratery condelleza rice warned a few officials not to take any flights on that date, before the attack

about 10 minutes before the crash, the data of 400 hard drives within the twin towers were transfeered to computers in germany at very large quantities at a time.

Gold (worth over $100 billion) that had been under the twin towers for decades and a couple of hours before the attack there were trucks underground taking out the gold, the place was heavily guarded with armed cops when usually that area was empty.

6 weeks before the event, the man who owned the twin towers signed an insurance policy promising him billions in cash if the towers were ever destroyed.

Planes have special recording boxes with a steel case so tough that any explosions keep it intact and one has never been destroyed, ever. There are 2 boxes per plane, but in the remains they only found one box like this which was damaged, but guess what they also found the passport of an iraq terrorist suspect. How can 3 absolutely indestructable boxes like this be destroyed for the time in history and a passport not be damaged at all.

The phone calls recorded couldn't have been made because the transmission from calling on a cell phone on the plane is so bad as it's not on ground. When a hostess said she's being attacked there was no screaming in the background.

The steel engineers said that the stell put in the twin towers has a melting point of 3000 degrees and takes a few hours to melt, but fire from a jet fuel only reaches as
high as 2000 degrees so how could have the steel melted from the fire?

one plane from a while ago had a security raid which took 2 1/2 hours with 60 people and a suspected planeof a terrorist that was security checked only took 12 minutes with 200 people, it was obviously a show.

Random 11 facts about 9/11. Add them up.

1. wtc 7's collapse is not at all mentioned in the 911 commission report.
2. 20 members of bin laden's family living in the US was allowed safe passage back to saudi arabia upon Bush's orders, even when all other planes were grounded
3. the planes beacons were lost on all 4 planes ranging in times of 20-45 minutes.
4. the pilot who "supposedly" flew flight 77 was a retired navy vet who worked as a special advisor for the pentagon up until his "death."
5. half of the 10 911 commission members have business ties to either American Airlines, United Airlines, Boeing, or Lockheed Martin...every member of the commission (including the staff) has some sort of conflict of interest.

6. the latest tapes prove norad(North American Aerospace Defense Command) was ordered to stand down on 911. They should have been protecting the air like always.. but where were they? Check out this video. They also had a simulation of an airplane hijacking by terorist specifically into the WTC as training acouple months before 9/11.
http://vidsearch.mys..353262FB81E024730252

7. flight 77's passenger manifest didnt list any of the alleged hijackers.
8. bush admitted in 2 seperated interviews that he saw the 1st plane hit the north tower live and then the secret service told him about the 2nd plane hitting the south tower--no one saw the 1st plane hit live, it wasnt shown on TV until much later in the night, and on some news channels, the next day.
9. the fbi has admitted that they have no proof of the hijackers identities because their identities may have been stolen.
10. no member of Al Qaeda is wanted for 911 by the FBI, in fact, no one is.
11.Larry Silverstein, owner of the buildings, purchased an insurance policy 3 weeks before 9/11 specifically covering "terrorist attacks". He is now a billionaire.

You believe 2 wtc buildings fell in perfect symmetry (from a completely unsemmetrical attack) in but one hour? Even after the planes hit, the buildings were standing strong, and would have survived. So the official NIST and FEMA reports said the buildings fell mostly because the fires spread so rapidly and caused the steel to give way. But structural steel, even with its strength halved (at 650°C), still can support two to three times the stress imposed to it (which is why is used in the construction of such huge buildings). With 47 steel beams working in unison, the top 1/4th of the building could have been held easily. But out of no where... people hear explosions, and random plumes of smoke can be seen bursting out of the building moving upwards (exactly as seen in any controlled demolition of a building). Just watch a video of the demolition and watch closely, you can see them yourself.

If the building had simply fallen on itself, there would be evidence of the steel beams somewhere, or evidence of anything for that matter. But all that was on ground zero after the buildings fell was dust and utterly small debris. How is it possible for everything in the building to be completely demolished into dust without the use of cutter charges?

and something none of the official FEMA, NIST and 9/11 commision reports dont explain is why there was molten steel on the site of ground zero. Structural steel has a melting point of 1500 °C, and jet fuel burns extremely rarely at 1000 °C, hardly enough to melt the steel. However, thermite used in partnership with cutter charges can create a devastation temperature of 2500 °C. Steven Jones, BYU physicist tested ground zero, and it came positive for thermite. Not just thermite though, the
military used compound thermAte, (which explains all of the sulfer found on ground zero by researchers.)

Oh yea.. and wtc7 fell that day even though no plane hit it. It was demolished by it's owner, Larry Silverstein.

I think this evidence is more than enough to atleast reopen the 9/11 commision and do a thourough investigation.

And now, the government arrests anyone who brings up the subject at a press confrence or asks questions regarding the subject, or they just dont answer them. If they had so much confidence in their story, why not answer acouple questions?

Im not even going to debate with anybody because im physically tired of doing so, i have the right to believe what i want, as do you.
So let the flaming begin haha.

The buildings fell at Free-fall speed. Free-fall, no resistance. Nothing. That is a physical imposibility given the explanation of the fire. I've read the commision report, and even though there are scattered errors in it (i.e. saying no black-boxes were recovered from the planes were there clearly were) I found it accurate enough.

I do believe islamic fanaticism had a lot to do with 9-11. And I do believe elements of government knew about the attacks before they happened.

You can't bullshit the laws of physics.

At 8/5/06 09:56 PM, Nylo wrote: You can't bullshit the laws of physics.

exactly, and im tired of people on these boards doing so.

Both Loose Change and Popular Mechanics interpret the facts in a particular way in order to reach the conclusion they started out with.

Popular mechanics also published an article on how Iraq definately possed WMD before the war, and we know how that worked out.

Loose change gets a bit creative with the truth lol.

I personally have seen evidence that it wasnt al-queda

http://www.911review..usamah/khilafah.html

http://www.cbsnews.c..ack/main515468.shtml

http://www.whatreall...com/osama_dead.html

http://news.bbc.co.u..dle_east/1559151.stm

But no evidence (convincing) that ties it to bush. The PNAC crew are more likely suspects, having written that document in the 90's saying america needed "a new pearl harbour" to further their goals in the middle east. thats just speculation, so assuming it wasnt the PNAc guys, I woould say that America blamed Bin Laden to further their golas in the middle east and whatever really happened that day has been taken care of 'behind closed doors'.

Just my 2p

rofl thats a retarded idea

terrorists did it pretty simple

Bush, Blair and the cronies are all just puppets on strings held by higher powers see the illuminati topic, cos while everyones tryin to put the pieces together on WHO DUNNIT? These guys are well underway with there next move and according to the state of the world at the moment they've done more than we will ever know.
So while we're all debating on truth and conspiracies, the new world order this lot want is in motion, it may not happen in our lifetime but it WILL happen, and we've all got our part to play and dont even know it.

But hey maybe im a conspiracy theorist, or am I?

At 8/6/06 04:41 PM, sodapop111 wrote: rofl thats a retarded idea

terrorists did it pretty simple

¨Do you know what terrorism is?
Its a form of war, not some groups.

the bin laden confession tape had him wearing a gold ring which is forbidden in the islam religion, he was writing with his right hand when he is left handed and the man on the tape looked nothing like bin laden on dozens of other pictures of him.

looks like we've given plenty of evidence pointing to conspiricy

So soda pop and any other damn fool objectors have clearly been pwned by us.

At 8/6/06 04:54 PM, beer67 wrote: the new world order this lot want is in motion, it may not happen in our lifetime but it WILL happen

I think it's closer than you realize. The first big step was america setting foot in iraq's soil. Then the nwo order will slowly move to surrounding countrys. Very subtly however, people will not see anything wrong with it. This shit has been planned since biblical times.

"What is at stake is more than one small country [Kuwait], it is a big idea - a new world order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind: peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law. Such is a world worthy of our struggle, and worthy of our children's future"--President George Bush in his state of the union address, January 16, 1991

At 8/6/06 04:41 PM, sodapop111 wrote: rofl thats a retarded idea

terrorists did it pretty simple

Ok source yourself.

At 8/5/06 09:56 PM, Nylo wrote:

I do believe islamic fanaticism had a lot to do with 9-11. And I do believe elements of government knew about the attacks before they happened.

Well fucking duh.

The CIA already knew that America was supposedly under risk of attack, but a when and where is pretty much impossible in the intelligence agency.

And apparently our university professors are also dumbasses.

http://www.cnn.com/2..eories.ap/index.html

At 8/6/06 10:17 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: And apparently our university professors are also dumbasses.

http://www.cnn.com/2..eories.ap/index.html

Id like to see you argue the points made in the posts above by me, natwel, and Haradrim. Calling people like steven jones a dumbass would be like calling you informed.