Forum Topic: Dimrain47 - Stolen Composition

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JesusSaves

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Posted at: 7/26/06 11:18 PM

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At 7/26/06 10:22 PM, PiePie wrote: Anyways did someone try getting Dimrain over here?
did any contact him?
I would like to hear his words

Agreed. I think the man deserves to at least be present at his own "trial", of sorts, before we take action.

I'm not persuaded that this guy should be banned. Show me more than just 30 seconds out of alot of good music that's stolen and I'll reconsider my position. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't think at this point that the accused is deserving of the aforementioned punishment.


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SadSpoon

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Posted at: 7/26/06 11:56 PM

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i agree with Steve, it's cheap to rip off someone else's riff, but at least he didn't build the whole song off of it. I wouldn't want him to get banned, because i like his music.


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SaintIsaiah

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Posted at: 7/26/06 11:57 PM

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Well I sent him a message on NG and he's yet to stop by. I mean, he did breach the NG agreement and I've read how NG has a 0% tolerance about this stuff. That's why I'm saying it seems logical to ban him. At the very least he needs to have that song deleted.


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DavidOrr

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Posted at: 7/27/06 12:10 AM

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At 7/26/06 11:57 PM, SaintIsaiah wrote: Well I sent him a message on NG and he's yet to stop by. I mean, he did breach the NG agreement and I've read how NG has a 0% tolerance about this stuff. That's why I'm saying it seems logical to ban him. At the very least he needs to have that song deleted.

Banning him is not in Newground's best interest. How happy would his fans be when they found out that Dimrain had been banned? A deletion of the song is all the action that needs to be taken, unless someone finds other works of his breaching the Newgrounds agreement.


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PiePie

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Posted at: 7/27/06 12:18 AM

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First thing that has to be done is get Dimrain aware of what going on and get an audio mod in here to give some thoughts...


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 12:41 AM

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At 7/27/06 12:10 AM, DavidOrr wrote: Banning him is not in Newground's best interest. How happy would his fans be when they found out that Dimrain had been banned? A deletion of the song is all the action that needs to be taken, unless someone finds other works of his breaching the Newgrounds agreement.

Well I'm getting some more info on a hint I received that 80% of "Frozen in Black and Silver" is stolen composition. I sent him a message here on NG as well.


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SaintIsaiah

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Posted at: 7/27/06 12:48 AM

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Remember, whether or not you believe he should be banned is irrelevant.
He agreed to the folowing when he submitted this so whatever a mod decides shall happen.

"When you submit your audio, please be aware:

1. You are making the legal claim that it is your own original work.
2. Loops you made from existing copyrighted songs are not your own original work.
3. If you turn out to not be the original author, you will be responsible for any repercussions."

Besides, he's apparantly too busy making his CD (though I find it hard to believe he actually got signed. Maybe if he's funding it himself...maybe...)

I'll hit up his myspace.


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andrew-parker

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Posted at: 7/27/06 01:32 AM

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the funny thing is...he never gets on here, i bet he checks his pms once a month if not less


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 01:35 AM

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Well apparently SaintIsaiah messaged him on myspace. Hopefully he'll receive that message soon.


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andrew-parker

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Posted at: 7/27/06 02:16 AM

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i wish i could see his reaction, the expression on his face when he finds out we discovered this


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:57 AM

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He probably wont be able to get his jaw up from the floor.


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Khuskan

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Posted at: 7/27/06 06:01 AM

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Although the melody is similar, and possibly even copied, there is no reason to X this. Although he didn't credit the other song, theres nothing there that makes me think that he meant to copy it.

It's just as likely that he came up with a melody that - by chance- turned out to be near exactly the same.

Also, he didn't use any of the origional material from the recording, so he didn't actually steal anything.


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Chronamut

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Posted at: 7/27/06 10:18 AM

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dont ban him just send him disappointed reviews like I did - I'm sure he will sorry then

*cough* ya right! *cough*

I'm such an audio FAG! Actually, I'm THE audio fag!
ALSO! come support us at the newgrounds irc chat rooms! - just type newgrounds_audio or vg_newgrounds for chatroom!

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MaestroSegments

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Posted at: 7/27/06 11:17 AM

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frowny face of death?

Dear Dimrain47

(

and then watch him die?


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k-m-g

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Posted at: 7/27/06 12:30 PM

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Oh my gosh, he's freaking right...hmm.


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Khuskan

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Posted at: 7/27/06 01:53 PM

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At 7/27/06 12:48 AM, SaintIsaiah wrote: Remember, whether or not you believe he should be banned is irrelevant.
He agreed to the folowing when he submitted this so whatever a mod decides shall happen.

"When you submit your audio, please be aware:

1. You are making the legal claim that it is your own original work.
2. Loops you made from existing copyrighted songs are not your own original work.
3. If you turn out to not be the original author, you will be responsible for any repercussions."

People reproduce video game tracks every day of the year on NG but nobody gets done for that. The only difference between that and this is either he tool the melody and didn't credit the origional source/declare it a remix (or cover).

Still, I'm still open to the fact it may just be an extremely unlikely coincidence - I know I've accidently stolen melodies from songs I've been listning to alot without even realising it, but normally you notice these things once you're done producing.


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Arbiter

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Posted at: 7/27/06 01:56 PM

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Well phrased Khuskan, you're now at the same point of view as I was,
and remains to this date.


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 02:23 PM

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Video game music are "covers," therefore the author is only assuming that the elements they created are their own work. But the other sections such as Techno are for fully original work. This is stealing. The melody was not "similar." It was 100% identical in composition and tempo. You are defending him with meaningless arguements. If I stole a pack of gum from the store and said I paid for it, the cop wouldn't say "oh well don't do that again." I would receive punishment and this song at the very least must be removed. And here is a statement to prove to you that Dimrain's actions is considered a copyright infringement.

Quotes from http://www.templeton../brad/copymyths.html
:

"If I make up my own work, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me."
False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called 'derivative works' -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you create a work using settings or elements from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.

Also:

"It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising."
It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars.

Short facts:

"Fan fiction and other work derived from copyrighted works is a copyright violation."

"Don't rationalize that you are helping the copyright holder; often it's not that hard to ask permission."

"Copyright is still violated whether you charged money or not, only damages are affected by that."

Bottom Line:

If he doesn't have permission from the author of the song he copied from, he has performed a copyright infringment. Which is not only a felony, but he also breached the agreement here. If someone let the band know what he did, they could easily sue Newgrounds for his actions if they desired.


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bert-90

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Posted at: 7/27/06 03:11 PM

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I made a cover of a song but I didn't use any of the oringal recording from the song or anything. Is it safe to add this song to the audio portal if I credit the original artist or is it a stolen composition?


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Dj-Fanta5t1c

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Posted at: 7/27/06 03:11 PM

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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 03:28 PM

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At 7/27/06 03:11 PM, bert_90 wrote: I made a cover of a song but I didn't use any of the oringal recording from the song or anything. Is it safe to add this song to the audio portal if I credit the original artist or is it a stolen composition?

Yeah you just gotta provide credit in the description. Because it's a cover, you're not claiming copyright or ownship other than that you composed it. All other credit must be given to the original song and their respective owners.

And Fantastic:

This thread isn't over until Dimrain gets here.


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WillPostForFood

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Posted at: 7/27/06 04:05 PM

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hmm i think chronamuts gay.

The names Food, WillPostForFood.

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WinTang

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Posted at: 7/27/06 04:52 PM

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At 7/27/06 02:23 PM, Haiasi wrote: Video game music are "covers," therefore the author is only assuming that the elements they created are their own work. But the other sections such as Techno are for fully original work.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but where did you get that "Video Game" is the only portal for covers? You have submitted two songs now, I'm sorry, but I doubt that you are a reliable source for information like this. But please prove me wrong if I am.

This is stealing. The melody was not "similar." It was 100% identical in composition and tempo. You are defending him with meaningless arguements. If I stole a pack of gum from the store and said I paid for it, the cop wouldn't say "oh well don't do that again." I would receive punishment and this song at the very least must be removed. And here is a statement to prove to you that Dimrain's actions is considered a copyright infringement.

That's no comparison. A comparison would be: developing packs of gum with, say, the exact same amount of sugar (but different substance, taste, and color) of a well-known gum brand, and then giving them away for free.

Quotes from http://www.templeton../brad/copymyths.html

Interesting - I went to the page. It seems to be solely about copyrighted text - lyrics, book passages, poems, certain characters and the relations between them - so I don't know how much of this actually applies to music copyright. Moreover, he does not use any references at all, which makes it impossible to determine the accuracy of his information and basically renders it useless as a source.
The term "derivative" is very vague because every song derives from something else in one way or another. When making music, you use "elements" from other songs by definition, because we classify something as music based on "elements". If that is really the way it is phrased in the Copyright Law, 80% of a copyright lawsuit will be spent on debating definitions.

Bottom Line:

If he doesn't have permission from the author of the song he copied from, he has performed a copyright infringment. Which is not only a felony, but he also breached the agreement here. If someone let the band know what he did, they could easily sue Newgrounds for his actions if they desired.

I have said this before - Newgrounds could just as well be sued on the music that's being used in LOTS AND LOTS AND FUCKING LOTS of flashes. Apparently, that doesn't happen - so I guess we're all overlooking something.

My bottom line:
*Slight pause while Chronamut enters because I said "bottom"*
Dimrain didn't copy anything, he didn't take a sample from the song, he just shortly used a theme that they wrote and it would have been nice if he'd credited them for that, but he played or sequenced it himself and I honestly don't see why we're fussing about this.
I appreciate the effort, of course, but the energy is better spent on real thievery - see "More stolen audio?"


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:29 PM

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At 7/27/06 04:52 PM, WinTang wrote: I don't want to sound like a dick, but where did you get that "Video Game" is the only portal for covers? You have submitted two songs now, I'm sorry, but I doubt that you are a reliable source for information like this. But please prove me wrong if I am.

All I'm going to say is that I've been here before. This is my new account. I'm a highly known artist on NG and my identity is not important and irrelevant to this. Second, I'm working on the production of my own album and I have to know this type of stuff in case someone steals my work. Not only that but I've experienced this before when someone stole my song and used it in a porn flick (yes I am quite serious about that.)

That's no comparison. A comparison would be: developing packs of gum with, say, the exact same amount of sugar (but different substance, taste, and color) of a well-known gum brand, and then giving them away for free.

Ok maybe my analogy was not the best, but you obviouly get the picture.

Interesting - I went to the page. It seems to be solely about copyrighted text - lyrics, book passages, poems, certain characters and the relations between them - so I don't know how much of this actually applies to music copyright. Moreover, he does not use any references at all, which makes it impossible to determine the accuracy of his information and basically renders it useless as a source.

Well this should suit your needs. http://www.copyright..itle17/92chap10.html

In "§ 1001. Definitions," the following definition is displayed:

(1) A "digital audio copied recording" is a reproduction in a digital recording format of a digital musical recording, whether that reproduction is made directly from another digital musical recording or indirectly from a transmission.

This means that whether you copied the song 100% or as small as a few seconds, the United States Government can consider it as a "digital audio copied recording"
Also, as we all know, If we are going to copy sonething, you must receive written authorization from the sole creator.

The term "derivative" is very vague because every song derives from something else in one way or another. When making music, you use "elements" from other songs by definition, because we classify something as music based on "elements". If that is really the way it is phrased in the Copyright Law, 80% of a copyright lawsuit will be spent on debating definitions.

Elements that are exactly the same. It's fine if I wanted to use the same instrument as "Darude" used in the main melody in "Sandstorm." But if I were to copy their melody and use it in my song, and it is 100% identical, then it would be considered as stolen material.

I have said this before - Newgrounds could just as well be sued on the music that's being used in LOTS AND LOTS AND FUCKING LOTS of flashes. Apparently, that doesn't happen - so I guess we're all overlooking something.

Well I never had nor ever will have interest in the flash portal. But if you want to be fair, I can contact the RIAA and inform them that NG is committing numerous copyright infringments using artist's music without authorization for flash productions.

My bottom line:
*Slight pause while Chronamut enters because I said "bottom"*
Dimrain didn't copy anything, he didn't take a sample from the song, he just shortly used a theme that they wrote and it would have been nice if he'd credited them for that, but he played or sequenced it himself and I honestly don't see why we're fussing about this.
I appreciate the effort, of course, but the energy is better spent on real thievery - see "More stolen audio?"

And that is where your ignorance can cost you dearly. Your opinion does not change the law. And by law he has copied the composition of that melody. That means that even though he did use his own instruments and sequencers, he STOLE the actual notes in their arranged order which is copyrighted material of this band. He has committed copyright infringement. I have relatives who work in lawfirms. I have checked my sources and I am positive that there is no mistake in my accusations. The melody was 100%, I repeat, 100% identical to the melody in the other song. All compositions are copyrighted. By using that melody without permission, he has committed copyright infringement. And this is "real theivery" on the contrary to your beliefs.


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Pounce

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:35 PM

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my dreams have been shattered. my hero has stolen something, when my hopes were to create purely original music. my life is over.
.........i never did like that forsaken neon song.


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:39 PM

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You should check out other artists then. Dimrain is not the best artist. I mean he's not bad, but he lacks what other artists have. Check out Rucklo, Chronamut, Psybot, SaintIsaiah or XsToRmEr1. They've all got pretty good music.


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Pounce

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:51 PM

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At 7/27/06 05:39 PM, Haiasi wrote: You should check out other artists then. Dimrain is not the best artist. I mean he's not bad, but he lacks what other artists have. Check out Rucklo, Chronamut, Psybot, SaintIsaiah or XsToRmEr1. They've all got pretty good music.

ive been here for 4 years, i know. dimrain was the first to directly appeal with my love of techno first. tahts why. you know, listening to this again with sound blaster x-fi platinum sound card, its actually good lol, even if stolen.
punish him anyway. people like Draze get away with shit like stealing an entire song copy and pasted in his songs, everyone worships and mass downloads more.


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Haiasi

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:54 PM

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I see you signed up in 2005, yet you said you've been here for 4 years. Looks like we're both assuming anonymous identities.


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Khuskan

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Posted at: 7/27/06 05:55 PM

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"If I make up my own work, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me."
False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called 'derivative works' -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you create a work using settings or elements from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.

It's still very shady as how far that law will go - shady enough that most legal matters will stear well clear of 'derived theivery' cases if they get the chance.

For example. Artist A sees that Artist B has painted a painting using an airbrush onto glass. Artist A decides that this is a good idea and copies the idea from Artist B.

Under that explination, Artist A would be producing a piece of derivative work, and therefore would require the authors permission to do it. There is no clear line at what point it is acceptable to borrow ideas. Under perfect law, you wouldn't be able to take a photo of a tree from a 30 degree angle if somebody else did it, as they would legally be able to claim that you used their idea.

Theres also the issue of prooving that it was stolen. With so many songs out there, theres a suprisingly high chance of the same melody being accidently repeated into another song. That is the only real explination I can offer for this instance. To proove somebody stole something from your song, it dosn't just have to sound similar, you have to proove that 1: you made it and 2: that it really is stolen, and not just similar.

Again this is what really protects people who do covers and re-recordings. Think about how many bands cover big-popular bands tracks. Although it might be attractive for the recording companies to farm in money off of it, the costs of simply hunting down people who perform music under their lable is too expensive to be worth it.

To be honest, the copyright laws are only really a worrying issue if you are either making money off of somebody elses work, composition or not, or you somehow get amazingly popular - at which point its more likely the record company will try to buy the track off you or win it in a lawsuit so they can use it for their own means. There are hundreds of covers on NG, and this similarity has only surfaced because it was a popular artist. Still, I'd like to hear what Dim himself has to say about this.

Also, regarding video game covers or remixes. Although under the copyright law, they're basically illegal, but most of the copyrights on the tracks have expired regardless. Also Nintendo has shown its support for fansites, fan fiction and fan music - under similar copyright laws, even fan websites are illegal if you are using copyrighted names without permission!

Newgrounds has a remarkably loose rule system to protect from copyrights - normally only tracks which contain material in sound form from another track will be even considered for deletion. Newgrounds also does not have legal responsibility for the individual track so to be honest they don't honestly need to do that - Its most likely just done to prevent other users doing the same thing.

Also, performing an action like banning (heaven forbid) dimrain for submission of a track which is questionably 'stolen' (though 99% of it sounds nothing like the origional, it's not even the same genre for fucks sake) would also result in a huge backlog of other tracks that, for fairness, would also need to be removed. Mostly covers and remixes.


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The-XI

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Posted at: 7/27/06 06:06 PM

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Hahahaha, I laugh of how indepth this is getting. Who honestly cares if he took a melody, the topic starter is really making it seem like hes the one jealous that he doesn't have hundreds of reviews and thousands of downloads.

Calm it down, buddy. He wrote a good song off that melody.

Jesus.


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