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All the protesters of the Israel and Gaza conflict it was justified by Israel to enter Gaza
Hamas is a group of Palestinians strongly backed by Iran because they believe the destruction of Israel is what should happen. Israel has to protect their country Israel wasn't the one who attacked first it was Gaza so don't go blaming Israel for a just war that was meant to touple a government that meant to destroy their country. So if you ask me Gaza insurgents and the government asked for it by starting the conflict

At 1/17/09 07:53 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/17/09 08:41 AM, Sarai wrote: If Israel really wanted a ceasefire, they would withdraw outside of Gaza

i'm not sure you understand the concept of a ceasefire or the difference between a ceasefire and something like a truce or peace treaty.

I think that is what it is. The idea is that no one is necessarily agreeing to anything political, but a ceasefire. The ending of offenses on both sides. The politics comes next.

It seems to me that, logically, it would be smart for Gaza to stop shooting rockets, and then begin to discuss the terms for a peace treaty so that Israel can get out. Regardless of the circumstances, the Palestinians are only hurting themselves if they choose to continue attacking while the big guy has stood down.

At 1/18/09 01:39 AM, Mr-President wrote:

At 1/17/09 07:53 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/17/09 08:41 AM, Sarai wrote: If Israel really wanted a ceasefire, they would withdraw outside of Gaza

i'm not sure you understand the concept of a ceasefire or the difference between a ceasefire and something like a truce or peace treaty.

I think that is what it is. The idea is that no one is necessarily agreeing to anything political, but a ceasefire. The ending of offenses on both sides. The politics comes next.

It seems to me that, logically, it would be smart for Gaza to stop shooting rockets, and then begin to discuss the terms for a peace treaty so that Israel can get out. Regardless of the circumstances, the Palestinians are only hurting themselves if they choose to continue attacking while the big guy has stood down.

Agreed, it would be very smart for them to do this. But the problem is after 60 pages of saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization you are trying to get them to act like a state. They don't have full control over their militia or weapons and as such I don't believe they can manage a ceasefire even if their top leadership agreed.

As I also tried to get across, do you really think they (or any group that considers itself 'Freedom Fighters') would accept a ceasefire when occupying troops are on the ground? I believe for example Northern Ireland was eventually sorted after British troops withdrew. When dealing with terrorists sometimes you have to do more than them. You have strategic goals, they have 'moralistic' or 'visionary' goals.

So, Israel is obviously naeive to think a unilaterial ceasefire will mean much. When they leave Gaza, they'll probably get their bilateral ceasefire. When they lift the blockade and allow more international monitoring and control and allow Gazans jobs and a social/economic life then they'll find the power of Hamas falls. When people are richer they are less likely to believe in extreme attitudes, when they are ground down under relentless attacks and crippling blockades then they're not that likely to.... Simple hey.

Note the argument above ignores blame fully. There is no need to go into "Hamas did this, Israel did that", it's simple logic. You can't say terrorists are terrorists one day then expect them to act like a state the next day.

At 1/17/09 08:02 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 1/17/09 06:03 PM, Sarai wrote: What you post to me I ignore because you end every paragraph with an insult. That is why you are ignored, because it is not worth talking to you as every paragraph ends in an insult (see above), or calling people who don't agree with your views 'terrorist' supporters.

Heh. Who willl you go after if you stop talking to morefngdbs? Certainly not Zoorule or I; we are apparently too threatening to your ego.

I don't 'go after' anyone. Either don't post in this thread or if you don't like what I post and can't manage to respond to me without insults then just ignore my posts and talk to other posters here. It's easy, goes with the rules and has a positive result.

At 1/17/09 08:02 PM, adrshepard wrote: Heh. Who willl you go after if you stop talking to morefngdbs? Certainly not Zoorule or I; we are apparently too threatening to your ego.

You know that post I made where I said that if people didn't play nice they'd lose their toys?

Congratulations, you just got yourself thrown out of the ball pit. Enjoy your ban.

At 1/18/09 04:04 AM, Sarai wrote: Agreed, it would be very smart for them to do this. But the problem is after 60 pages of saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization you are trying to get them to act like a state. They don't have full control over their militia or weapons and as such I don't believe they can manage a ceasefire even if their top leadership agreed.

"Terrorist" is nothing but a slur. Terrorism is all relative.
I doubt a group bent on Israel's destruction will stop. However, to look good in international eyes, I feel the best choice would be to assume a defensive stance. The attacks from Hamas are staggered and seemingly un-coordinated. Would it work if they were dealt with on an individual basis, with snipers or jets taking out the locations rockets are launched from? Guaranteed death is generally a pretty good deterrent.

At 1/18/09 11:51 AM, Grammer wrote: I don't think it's far fetched to say Israel is a terrorist organization at this point.

Anything far-fetched seems to be coming from the Israelis - they've used the "we've been shot at from UN buildings" twice in the space of a week!

At 1/18/09 11:51 AM, Grammer wrote: I don't think it's far fetched to say Israel is a terrorist organization at this point.

It's a fanatic immoral pretending claim.
It shocks me how the Pro-Arabic propaganda twisted the world.

At 1/18/09 11:58 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/18/09 11:51 AM, Grammer wrote: I don't think it's far fetched to say Israel is a terrorist organization at this point.

It's a fanatic immoral pretending claim.
It shocks me how the Pro-Arabic propaganda twisted the world.

Funny, since about September 12th 2001 I haven't seen much in the way of Pro-Arabic propaganda anywhere...

At 1/18/09 12:06 PM, D2Kvirus wrote:

At 1/18/09 11:58 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/18/09 11:51 AM, Grammer wrote: I don't think it's far fetched to say Israel is a terrorist organization at this point.

It's a fanatic immoral pretending claim.
It shocks me how the Pro-Arabic propaganda twisted the world.

Funny, since about September 12th 2001 I haven't seen much in the way of Pro-Arabic propaganda anywhere...

You watch the BBC don't you? the propaganda is everywhere, you can't see it because you support it. But it's everywhere, and it's powerful. The fact that people with no real connection to the conflict can refer to Israel as a "terrorist" when it's obviously the more moral and decent side of the whole conflict proves it.

The propaganda is obvious. People have been led to believe that the lives of Arab civilians actually mean anything. Objectively, everyone knows that bombing a school with 40 civilians in is perfectly justified if it means taking out one terrorist. Killing around thousand people and razing entire city blocks is justified if it means preventing Israeli casualties. But due to all the propaganda people don't understand this anymore.

Nobody complained or cared about Lidice, why are people complaining about Gaza? Because of all the propaganda of course!

At 1/18/09 12:37 PM, Togukawa wrote: The propaganda is obvious. People have been led to believe that the lives of Arab civilians actually mean anything. Objectively, everyone knows that bombing a school with 40 civilians in is perfectly justified if it means taking out one terrorist. Killing around thousand people and razing entire city blocks is justified if it means preventing Israeli casualties. But due to all the propaganda people don't understand this anymore.

Satirical but not true. the propaganda have led to believe that Israel targets civilians, when the only reason civilians die is because of Hamas uses them as human shields. That Hamas actually have a case. Why do you call them terrorists when it fits you? They are the government there, they were (Until this operation) supporting Hamas, even when they shot thousands of rockets into Israel with no Israeli response for years.
People don't understand that Israel wants peace unlike it's enemies.
It made people think the Israeli offense is act of revenge and hate, when it's the exact opposite.

Nobody complained or cared about Lidice, why are people complaining about Gaza? Because of all the propaganda of course!

There is a genocide in Sudan right now, over a million (1,000,000) people killed. Sudan is a member state of the human rights organization and a member state of the Arab league
The genocide in rwanda? Millions of millions, no one gave the slightest shit.
Tibet with China. All are far far unimaginably worst.

But when Israel acts in self defense against a extremists radical terrorist controlled regime, suddenly people care.

That's what the propaganda have done.

At 1/18/09 12:26 PM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/18/09 12:06 PM, D2Kvirus wrote:

At 1/18/09 11:58 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/18/09 11:51 AM, Grammer wrote: I don't think it's far fetched to say Israel is a terrorist organization at this point.

It's a fanatic immoral pretending claim.
It shocks me how the Pro-Arabic propaganda twisted the world.

Funny, since about September 12th 2001 I haven't seen much in the way of Pro-Arabic propaganda anywhere...

You watch the BBC don't you? the propaganda is everywhere, you can't see it because you support it. But it's everywhere, and it's powerful. The fact that people with no real connection to the conflict can refer to Israel as a "terrorist" when it's obviously the more moral and decent side of the whole conflict proves it.

The BBC? Propaganda? Oh please, they only show the version of events that come from the mouth of the Israelis, so it's hardly going to be pro-Arab propeganda when they don't even have a freaking voice!

There's no criticism of the Israelis when they blow up another UN structure, be it school or refugee camp, there's no shredding the tissue of lies about them being fired at from the structure, and there's no counterpoint.

The BBC always toes the line, and in this case the line is pro-Israel.

At 1/18/09 12:51 PM, zoolrule wrote:

Satirical but not true. the propaganda have led to believe that Israel targets civilians, when the only reason civilians die is because of Hamas uses them as human shields. That Hamas actually have a case. Why do you call them terrorists when it fits you? They are the government there, they were (Until this operation) supporting Hamas, even when they shot thousands of rockets into Israel with no Israeli response for years.
People don't understand that Israel wants peace unlike it's enemies.
It made people think the Israeli offense is act of revenge and hate, when it's the exact opposite.

People die because of Israeli weapons. The guys shooting look at the situation: a UN school, lots of civilians, and a couple of terrorists. Two options to take: shoot and kill around 40 civilians, and a couple of terrorists, or don't shoot and don't kill 40 civilians, but also don't kill a couple of terrorists. The choice of what to do is entirely Israel's, and the decision has been made in favor of killing a few terrorists, instead of favouring to save a lot more civilians.

Nobody actually knows whether Israel targets civilians or not, there's no decent independent press in the war zone. When Israel bombs a hospital or a UN school, or robs thousands of their homes, it could be because they want to teach the civilians a lesson for having democratically elected a terrorist organization, or it could be because they think it's justified as long as they get the terrorists too.

The fact that the civilians were all supporting Hamas has no relevance WHATSOEVER. Even if they all think it would be a good idea to kill every last Israeli on earth, that still doesn't make it right to kill them, or in any other way intentionally cause them grief. As long as they are not actually taking up arms or shooting rockets, they're civilians. You can't kill people or bomb their homes just because they have some fucked up ideas.

Nobody complained or cared about Lidice, why are people complaining about Gaza? Because of all the propaganda of course!

There is a genocide in Sudan right now, over a million (1,000,000) people killed. Sudan is a member state of the human rights organization and a member state of the Arab league
The genocide in rwanda? Millions of millions, no one gave the slightest shit.
Tibet with China. All are far far unimaginably worst.

But when Israel acts in self defense against a extremists radical terrorist controlled regime, suddenly people care.

That's what the propaganda have done.

People care because Israel is supposed to be the good guy, the shining beacon of democracy and civilization in a region of theocracies and fundamentalist nutcases.

At 1/18/09 12:37 PM, Togukawa wrote: The propaganda is obvious. People have been led to believe that the lives of Arab civilians actually mean anything. Objectively, everyone knows that bombing a school with 40 civilians in is perfectly justified if it means taking out one terrorist. Killing around thousand people and razing entire city blocks is justified if it means preventing Israeli casualties. But due to all the propaganda people don't understand this anymore.

In war, minimize civilian casualties at all costs, and maintain good defense. Anything else will bring the wrath of other nations down on you.

At 1/18/09 12:26 PM, zoolrule wrote: You watch the BBC don't you? the propaganda is everywhere, you can't see it because you support it. But it's everywhere, and it's powerful. The fact that people with no real connection to the conflict can refer to Israel as a "terrorist" when it's obviously the more moral and decent side of the whole conflict proves it.

Sounds like pro-Israeli propaganda got to you. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are whiny scumbags, resorting to violence rather than negotiation . I have trouble believing that an anti-Israel government was put in power without Israel doing something to really piss them off. I think we need Jimmy Carter's "Do you recognize _______'s right to exist?" negotiations style, and work till the answer is yes.

At 1/18/09 04:04 AM, Sarai wrote:

At 1/18/09 01:39 AM, Mr-President wrote:

At 1/17/09 07:53 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/17/09 08:41 AM, Sarai wrote: If Israel really wanted a ceasefire, they would withdraw outside of Gaza

i'm not sure you understand the concept of a ceasefire or the difference between a ceasefire and something like a truce or peace treaty.

I think that is what it is. The idea is that no one is necessarily agreeing to anything political, but a ceasefire. The ending of offenses on both sides. The politics comes next.

It seems to me that, logically, it would be smart for Gaza to stop shooting rockets, and then begin to discuss the terms for a peace treaty so that Israel can get out. Regardless of the circumstances, the Palestinians are only hurting themselves if they choose to continue attacking while the big guy has stood down.

Agreed, it would be very smart for them to do this. But the problem is after 60 pages of saying that Hamas is a terrorist organization you are trying to get them to act like a state. They don't have full control over their militia or weapons and as such I don't believe they can manage a ceasefire even if their top leadership agreed.

I'm going to be honest; I think that if someone claimed I was a terrorist organization, I'd do everything to prove them wrong. It seems like they'd be running on excuses to say that they're being pressured into acting like terrorists.

You do indeed have a point about the lack of control. HOWEVER, the top leaders DON'T agree, and I think that's the first step. Doesn't it make sense that they should at least TRY to make Israel look bad by wholeheartedly accepting the ceasefire and sending their men out to confiscate all of the rockets, and then sue Israel for damages?

Note that I'm not trying to be biased, by the way. I'm just trying to be challenging.

As I also tried to get across, do you really think they (or any group that considers itself 'Freedom Fighters') would accept a ceasefire when occupying troops are on the ground? I believe for example Northern Ireland was eventually sorted after British troops withdrew. When dealing with terrorists sometimes you have to do more than them. You have strategic goals, they have 'moralistic' or 'visionary' goals.

I understand what you're saying, but this is where I feel like we shouldn't be as sympathetic, you know? I mean, a unilateral ceasefire is clearly the first step to peace. If both want peace, it would make sense that the other side should comply to such an offer. While they are freedom fighters, the question at this point should be: what exactly is their goal in fighting back? In my mind, there doesn't really seem to be an adequate reason at this point.

So, Israel is obviously naive to think a unilaterial ceasefire will mean much. When they leave Gaza, they'll probably get their bilateral ceasefire. When they lift the blockade and allow more international monitoring and control and allow Gazans jobs and a social/economic life then they'll find the power of Hamas falls. When people are richer they are less likely to believe in extreme attitudes, when they are ground down under relentless attacks and crippling blockades then they're not that likely to.... Simple hey.

I noticed you said PROBABLY. I think at this point, none of us can be certain what will happen if Israel leaves completely. I guess you feel similarly, or maybe you're just being safe. Not exactly sure. Now, concerning the blockade - I think that such a thing would be discussed in a peace treaty, in addition to suing for damages. What's wrong with an international court deciding this? We all know what they would end up deciding. At that point, we all know that the world would send Gaza MILLIONS in money for redeveloping. The world is already determined to give Gaza everything on a silver platter. It just seems dumb to me to push that away because Israel is the one doing all of these, as you say, 'war crimes.'

Note the argument above ignores blame fully. There is no need to go into "Hamas did this, Israel did that", it's simple logic. You can't say terrorists are terrorists one day then expect them to act like a state the next day.

Of course - no reason to blame now. Blaming gets us nowhere, and that's been the discussion in the past sixty pages. I'm tired of blaming, let's find the solution.

At 1/18/09 04:02 PM, Mr-President wrote: Of course - no reason to blame now. Blaming gets us nowhere, and that's been the discussion in the past sixty pages. I'm tired of blaming, let's find the solution.

;;;;;;;;;;;
I have no way to prove this & its may be an impossiblity. But you know how some people have brown eyes & some have blue , there are other colors as well same with skin color, hair etc. They tell us this is all part of our individual Genetic Makeup. Which is the building blocks of cellular structure.

Well I am starting to believe these people are genetically predisposed to hate each other. These people can't even immigrate to other countries without bringing their hate along with them. The palestiians especially are if not genetically made up to HATE Jews...& lets call a spade what it is here...They Hate JEWS. Because the demonstration in California (Berkeley) where arabs went to a concert which was sponsered by/for Jewish Israeli's & picked a fight. That is just one in many ,many confrontations where these "student" go out to functions they are opposed to & start trouble.

What I love about the story is when more Jewish students arrived the Arab trouble makers hid behind their women (ANYBODY SEE A TREND HERE ? I KNOW I DO )
I'm not going to post a link, because no matter what you 'search with' you put Arab/Jew, & Berkeley fight dispute whatever you can find multiple sources.

So your tired of blaming.

I personally believe the one sure way to stop the fighting (the only way actually) is to kill all of them.
Both sides , kill them all , or maybe have all of the big 8 nations declare war on the Palestinian & Israeli's , & attack.

As horrific as that may sound, it might be the only way to save them from an never ending conflict. Because maybe just maybe if everyone is against them .They will smarten the Fuck up & work together to survive...& after they start working together & helping one another, then call it off & see if the survivors are smart enough to let this terrible lesson sink in.

Even though I support the Israeli side. It is not only because of unrelenting rocket & bomb attacks.
It is also because the Hamas terrorist group, is using children to hide behind. These terrorists have support from many male & female adults & I have no problem with them getting killed by their being 'sheilds' for Hamas cowards. But the children, seeing & hearing about the children is hard. For the record, let me not just put that on Hamas, Arab's all over the middle east consider this a wonderful way to fight...launch an attack, hide behind women & children, wait for some of them to be killed & jump up & down calling us all killers.
Yet , even with this ,a known fact, people in other countries contiue to protest...thereby helping the murderers continue their terror campaign.

But I personally can't tell a jewish baby from an Israeli baby, & I believe they both deserve an equal chance. But this will never happen when one side holds the other in refugee/prison type conditions & the other side who feel they have a right to kill/bomb/murder anyone ,even their own, to get rid of Jews, to the point they teach young children not even in school yet to hate. ( Which is why they are in these walled encampments in the first place D'OH )
There is no chance for any peace with such a horrible mindset.

In the clusterfuck that is the middle east...making it the missing east, is probably the only way to stop it. Protesting how innocents ,if they are an adult male or female, fighter or noncombatant (they are not innocent) are being killed without Protesting about cowardly attacks, which is what has caused this latest round of Stupidity, is what PISSES me off. And is the reason I keep coming here to stand up equality over one sided misinformation.

At 1/18/09 04:50 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/18/09 04:02 PM, Mr-President wrote: Of course - no reason to blame now. Blaming gets us nowhere, and that's been the discussion in the past sixty pages. I'm tired of blaming, let's find the solution.

Well I am starting to believe these people are genetically predisposed to hate each other.

It is the way they are raised. When one is born and raised under an ideology of hate, it is hard to open your eyes beyond that.

So your tired of blaming.

I am. Politics is in love with it, and so are the people. It usually takes too much effort to find a solution, so people just throw insults and sources at each other to end with a major divide on both sides that inevitably comes with an intense hate.

I personally believe the one sure way to stop the fighting (the only way actually) is to kill all of them.
Both sides , kill them all , or maybe have all of the big 8 nations declare war on the Palestinian & Israeli's , & attack.

Impractical: too much effort and it would take too many lives. This is the Devil's Argument - the easy way out.

As horrific as that may sound, it might be the only way to save them from an never ending conflict. Because maybe just maybe if everyone is against them .They will smarten the Fuck up & work together to survive...& after they start working together & helping one another, then call it off & see if the survivors are smart enough to let this terrible lesson sink in.

Also irrational. This isn't a movie where two groups work together to defeat a higher power; they'd all kill each other. It'd just be Israel firing nukes and it'd be nothing more than a bloodbath.

It is also because the Hamas terrorist group, is using children to hide behind. These terrorists have support from many male & female adults & I have no problem with them getting killed by their being 'sheilds' for Hamas cowards. But the children, seeing & hearing about the children is hard. For the record, let me not just put that on Hamas, Arab's all over the middle east consider this a wonderful way to fight...launch an attack, hide behind women & children, wait for some of them to be killed & jump up & down calling us all killers.
Yet , even with this ,a known fact, people in other countries contiue to protest...thereby helping the murderers continue their terror campaign.

This is blaming, and this is outrage towards supporting countries. I am not looking for any of that. I understand both sides of the issue, and I have my own opinion, but it's relatively insignificant, especially on a website like this.

No, I aim to break the borders of hate and prejudice and misery and find a tangible solution that can be a plausible compromise between both sides so that some measure of improvement can be summoned from the depths of the goodness of the human soul.

But I personally can't tell a jewish baby from an Israeli baby, & I believe they both deserve an equal chance.

I think all babies do. Just don't have them be raised under a house of hatred.

There is no chance for any peace with such a horrible mindset.

Don't be so sure.

At 1/18/09 05:32 AM, AntiangelicAngel wrote:

Would it work if they were dealt with on an individual basis, with snipers or jets taking out the locations rockets are launched from? Guaranteed death is generally a pretty good deterrent.

To any freedom fighter, death means nothing. Keep that in mind. This applies to anyone.

At 1/18/09 03:00 PM, Grammer wrote:
Yeah sorry I don't like gorging myself on the Israeli propaganda. "Oh we just wanna protect ourselves, we really want peace". Bullshit. Israel sets up more and more settlements in Palestinian land every day. You're not promoting democracy, you're pissing off Arab moderates by shelling school buildings in an illegal war. Fuck Israel.

You don't watch the news much do you?

If you did you would know that the Israeli army has actually forcefully relocated several settlements to give land back the arabs.

I'll say what I've said before. The ONLY way I see of resolving this is the UN has to grow a set, flex it's muscle, and tread into the area of if one or both sides are unwilling to end the fighting, they'll have to come down on the offender, remove them from power, and try to get the citizenry to put someone in who will stop it. I don't think they have to blow each other up, you have to remove all the people who profit from the conflict from power positions and take away the things that aggrieve.

In the end, to me the best course is to force the 2 state solution. To create a CLEAR, DEFINED, and INTERNATIONALLY BACKED, Palestinianan state that is sovereign. Yeah, you still have to clean up Hamas, but it does allow the international community no excuse if Israel infringes on clearly defined Palestinian borders, or vice versa. Because to me, this thread is the issue in a microcosm: we can't agree what is and isn't definite Palestinian territory, and we can't get our heads past the "if you don't support one side, you must support the other" aspect of things. I support peace personally, and if that means giving Israel a bit of a curb stomp, ok. If it means throwing out Hamas and forcing a new election, fine by me (I hate to say throw 'em out and put in somebody the international community likes because any government that isn't supported by the people has fallen apart in the end, history teaches us that from Babylon on down). I think the two state solution really is the answer.

At 1/19/09 01:32 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: I'll say what I've said before. The ONLY way I see of resolving this is the UN has to grow a set,

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The problem with the UN is that they can't 'grow a set'. They have too many rules, rules that completely hamstring their people on the ground. Just look at Rawanda...what happened there & there were UN troops on the ground. They were forbidden to stop genocide happening right in front of their positions...they couldn't even walk out a gate & help the people being murdered before their eyes.
Grow a set...they ( the money sucking do nothing suits) need to be disbanded & an international force with allegence to no one but the governing body...A World Armed Security service type organization, one with TEETH !

If it means throwing out Hamas and forcing a new election, fine by me (I hate to say throw 'em out and put in somebody the international community likes because any government that isn't supported by the people has fallen apart in the end

;;;;;
Hamas isn't as popular through out the Palestinian world as some might think. Just look at the problems between Gaza & the West Bank, both places are Palestinian. The way my Lebonese friends have explained it to me. IS that the militants are above the police & armed forces . They work with no uniforms, they use masks to hide their identity, so that if your Chief so & so ,or Major/colonel so & so If you try clamping down on the militant group...they execute you, your family members, your kids they don't care...your not on their page. Then your the enemy & must be destroyed.

These people see killing their own as a means to an end. An end they have no idea what they will do afterward. They have no plan for peaceful coexistence, they have no plan except to kill. Hamas militants are just as happy killing their own as anyone else, the way the got rid of the Fatah in Gaza shows us that...they just executed any member withyout trial that they captured. They rule Gaza at the muzzel of a gun, ther is no 'Law' there .On top of all the senseless violence & hate we all see is the unseen deals, the 'money' as it were. There are many subplots going on for drug dealing ,arms dealing & other criminal activities which are easier to hide in the confusion.
Let's not allow the slight of hand being played out daily, to completely fool us. THere is a shit load of money involved... you think those bombs, rockets, military hardware comes for free? for Cheap ?
Come on, I don't believe for a second everyone here doesn't recognize that, money is being made hand over fist.

At 1/19/09 09:49 AM, morefngdbs wrote: A World Armed Security service type organization, one with TEETH !

the problem, other than the UN being ass-backwards, is that no country wants to supply full time troops, even if its to a UN-like organization.

At 1/19/09 11:26 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/19/09 09:49 AM, morefngdbs wrote: A World Armed Security service type organization, one with TEETH !

the problem, other than the UN being ass-backwards, is that no country wants to supply full time troops, even if its to a UN-like organization.

;;;;;
As a Canadian & we supply troops to the UN...for awhile it's pretty much all our military did.
So while I agree with you, I also don't believe the present system can be reformed to work as a International Peace or Stabilizing force , There is the Massive Problem of getting around the Senior Member Countries having a 'vote' . That has to change.
IT is completely unweildly as it is set up right now.

But for sake of ...discussion there are several spots on the planet that really need intervention. Israel/Palestine is one IMO & the other is Somalia. Sure there are lot's of other countries with trouble, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, right off the top of my head these are real problem areas that a multinational force, under a U.N. total mandate & control could do some good.

But Pakistan has a Government...its F^(#$d Up, but it is there, same for Zimbabwe...corrupt, murderous & a sham dictatorship but its there. Afghanistan's Government is only in place because the U.S. & other countries are proping it up...same can be said for Iraq.
But Somalia & the Israeli/Palestinian areas are toast right now, & burnt toast at that.

At 1/19/09 11:26 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/19/09 09:49 AM, morefngdbs wrote: A World Armed Security service type organization, one with TEETH !

the problem, other than the UN being ass-backwards, is that no country wants to supply full time troops, even if its to a UN-like organization.

More specifically, no government wants a world government which is what you are really talking about because it is a security threat. Who wants the rest of the world intervening inside their own country. For instance, there were laws passed in Europe that prevent the torture of plants. What if this armed international force decided to uphold that law in all countries? :/

Anyhow, I don't think any of you at all can reasonably discuss the Israeli-palistinian conflict because all of you are too absorbed in demonizing the opposition. Its quite clear that Hamas tried to maximize civilian casualties, and its quite clear that as many precautions as Israel tried to take, they still didn't manage to reduce civilian casualties. Throwing blame around and trite words like terrorists and terrorist states don't really deal with the real problem because you are abstracting away the real people that actually exist.

They aren't you, they are "the other" and anyone who is willing to count one group as terrorists is falling to the same xenophobic mindset that allowed atrocities in Rwanda, Darfur, Turkey, and, yes, Germany.

I guarantee that there are actors on both sides, but if I just look at the facts that are presented it seems to me that offenders actually do lie within Hamas, and Israel was out of or ignored good alternatives (if they exist).

I'm left wondering, if Israel really is to blame, why are the rockets coming from just Gaza and not the West Bank as well?

At 1/19/09 01:41 PM, gumOnShoe wrote: I'm left wondering, if Israel really is to blame, why are the rockets coming from just Gaza and not the West Bank as well?

;;;;
Well the Fatah faction, which recognises Israel's right to exist was was ejected/destroyed in Gaza by Hamas. They (Fatah) is still in power in the West Bank.
Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel & its people , & do not recognise Israel or their right to exist.

At 1/19/09 01:53 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/19/09 01:41 PM, gumOnShoe wrote: I'm left wondering, if Israel really is to blame, why are the rockets coming from just Gaza and not the West Bank as well?

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Well the Fatah faction, which recognises Israel's right to exist was was ejected/destroyed in Gaza by Hamas. They (Fatah) is still in power in the West Bank.
Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel & its people , & do not recognise Israel or their right to exist.

Blah, blah, blah rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric. You are missing the point. If Israel is an evil terrorist state, wouldn't they be invading the west bank willy nilly to? Yes I know they did a few years back, but things seem to have improved on that end, so maybe it was a good thing?

Also, quite clearly, I think we can all recognize that the average Palestinian probably doesn't support Hamas since rockets are only coming out of Gaza, though two were fired from Lebanon at one point. Doesn't all of this suggest that the real problem is somehow specific to the condition in Gaza?

It seems a majority of people who don't like Israel don't like the fence or the blockade. But, isn't the gas situation similar to what Russia is doing to the Ukraine, only in this case its because of actual hostility, and not some veiled expansionist policy? Why are we crying out about Russia? Maybe they are too big, so it is ok. ;)

I don't know that I agree with the blockade, but every time that Israel attempts to lift it, it seemed that more attacks were carried out on Israel regardless. This points again to the problem being with Hamas, and none of the people crying for international intervention really have suggested a real plan. They just want that vague and elusive word: "peace." Oh and that other one "humane treatment."

Please suggest to me what Israel should have done and how that would have resolved the Hamas issue?

It seems to me you are all playing the demonizing game instead of the "lets fix the problem game." Its easy to fall into, I know, but you're all supposed to be intelligent individuals. :D

At 1/19/09 01:41 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:

Anyhow, I don't think any of you at all can reasonably discuss the Israeli-palistinian conflict because all of you are too absorbed in demonizing the opposition. Its quite clear that Hamas tried to maximize civilian casualties, and its quite clear that as many precautions as Israel tried to take, they still didn't manage to reduce civilian casualties. Throwing blame around and trite words like terrorists and terrorist states don't really deal with the real problem because you are abstracting away the real people that actually exist.

Which is why I'm attempting to transcend the debate of blame and get to a damned solution. Those people that actually exist simply want a solution.

I'm left wondering, if Israel really is to blame, why are the rockets coming from just Gaza and not the West Bank as well?

There is that as well, and yet that's part of the way to finding the solution.

At 1/19/09 02:08 PM, Mr-President wrote: Those people that actually exist simply want a solution.

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Some of those people...maybe even more than SOME ,want a solution...well maybe they shoulfd get 1 flag. 1 flag for everyone to raaly behind/under.
But instead of just a white flag (sorry bad pun)
maybe something like this .

great idea!