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At 1/13/09 03:59 PM, SolInvictus wrote: Israel kills civilians therefore it is an evil genocidal nation.
Israel admits mistakes that resulted in civilian casualties therefore it is an evil genocidal nation.

someone explain how that makes sense?

Simple, when they (IDF) first bombed the UN school, the IDF said that Hamas was firing from within the school compound, then they said that Hamas had booby trapped the school which led to the destruction, then they finally said after a few days that their mortar hit the school unintentionally. So sure, they did admit it was an accident, but that was only after their first two excuses fell through.

If the police were questioning you about murdering someone, do you honestly think they would take your third rendition of events as fact? I think they would determine you are either uncooperative or flat out telling lies.

At 1/13/09 10:27 PM, bcdemon wrote: So sure, they did admit it was an accident, but that was only after their first two excuses fell through.

you missed the point, but thats ok.

At 1/13/09 10:59 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/13/09 10:27 PM, bcdemon wrote: So sure, they did admit it was an accident, but that was only after their first two excuses fell through.

you missed the point, but thats ok.

There's a lot of that going around in this thread.

Hey we tell them when they get a little super fucking crazy...

US refused to support Iran attack

Published Date: 12 January 2009
By David Sanger in Washington

PRESIDENT George Bush rejected a secret request by Israel last year for specialised bunker-busting bombs the country wanted for an attack on Iran's main nuclear complex, and told the Israelis he had authorised new covert action intended to sabotage Iran's suspected effort to develop nuclear weapons.
According to inside sources, White House officials never conclusively determined whether Israel had decided to go ahead with the strike before the United States protested, or whether the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, was trying to goad the White House into more decisive action before Mr Bush left office. But the Bush administration was particularly alarmed by an Israeli request to fly over Iraq to reach Iran's major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country's only known uranium enrichment plant is located.

The White House denied that request outright, American officials said, and the Israelis backed down, at least temporarily.

I'm curious about something, how will Obamas Chief of Staff choice of Rahm Emanual, whose father, Benjamin Emanual was a member of the militant Zionist group Irgun, effect this whole situation?

Any thoughts?

I wonder what Olmert was thinking?

He's pretty damn confident in any case.

If this hasn't been pointed out, I would like to say that in the news here in the middle east, it has been reported that Israel had been using, how do I say this... well weapons and stuff that are not supposed to be used. Those weapons that are toxic and stuff. They found people who's lungs are completely destroyed without any injury. So yeah, just pointing it out there....

Also, the everyone is try to call for a cease fire. Israel is fighting people with a few weapons and a few rockets, with Air, ground and other heavy weapons. The death toll has reached 1000 If I am not mistaken. They should just calm the heck down, and try to call for a cease-fire. Just because Hamas won't listen doesn't mean you should kill it, and everyone else too.

This morning Izrealian tanks initinated a bombardment of the civilian population of Gaza. Hundreds of people are reported injured, the UN Headquaters, a mediacenter and a hospital has been reported to be struck by the shells from the Izrealian tanks. So far 3 UN employs have been reported injured.

I say we get out the carpet bombers and bomb them back to the stoneage. Either that or we make an arms embargo in the place.

At 1/15/09 12:30 AM, bcdemon wrote: I'm curious about something, how will Obamas Chief of Staff choice of Rahm Emanual, whose father, Benjamin Emanual was a member of the militant Zionist group Irgun, effect this whole situation?

Any thoughts?

It will work for the good guys.

At 1/15/09 04:38 AM, 4urentertainment wrote: If this hasn't been pointed out, I would like to say that in the news here in the middle east, it has been reported that Israel had been using, how do I say this... well weapons and stuff that are not supposed to be used. Those weapons that are toxic and stuff. They found people who's lungs are completely destroyed without any injury. So yeah, just pointing it out there....

I think you are referring to White Phosphorous. It is allowed to be used in order to light up the battle field or as a smoke screen. However, it is not allowed to be used to blow up targets. Reports are coming out that Israel used WP on the UN compound hit today.

At 1/15/09 07:38 AM, JudeZombi wrote: Hundreds of people are reported injured, the UN Headquaters, a mediacenter and a hospital has been reported to be struck by the shells from the Izrealian tanks. So far 3 UN employs have been reported injured.

Even though the UN gave the IDF GPS coordinate of all its locations in Gaza, Israel still targets them. And I only say they target them because they are using GPS guidance technology with their munitions. And if a store bought, handheld GPS device can get you within 1 meter (3 feet) of a bearing point, I'm pretty sure the military GPS can offer similar, if not better results. Is it a coincidence that the IDF destroy the UN headquarters in Gaza as the UN Secretary-General visits Israel seeking a ceasefire?

And the bombing of the al Quds hospital constitutes a war crime, according to the Geneva Conventions. But with Bush giving Israel a free pass, and Obamas right hand man being the son of a Zionist militant, we all know Israel can't be touched.

I know that I come a bit late to this discussion, but I really HAVE to say this. Why people is only focused on Israel? I want to point out, that was Hamas, who started this new war, when the decided to attack Israel with rockets. Yeah, that rockets are domestic ones, but they still kill innocent israel people, and in a random way.

Why should Israel stay in silence? They have to defend their country and fight against the terrorists. And If Israel has a better militar equipment that Hamas, why shouldn't they use that equipment?

Israel doens't want to kill civilians, but Hamas force them to do that. Hamas use civilians as human shields, so the civilians that are dying because of that is Hamas fault. Hamas also use children. Do you think this is normal? Nothing, absolutely nothing can justify this.

Do you honestly think, that if Hamas had the same militar power that Israel, they wouldn't attack Israel in a brutal way? They would do that, for sure! And Israel is not attacking Gaza in a brutal way. They are just fighting against terrorists. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group. People tend to forget that.

Here, you have an example of Hamas, using kids. Abominable

At 1/15/09 12:30 AM, bcdemon wrote: I'm curious about something, how will Obamas Chief of Staff choice of Rahm Emanual, whose father, Benjamin Emanual was a member of the militant Zionist group Irgun, effect this whole situation?

Any thoughts?

Well when you consider that Rahm is a leftist who was one of the engineers of the Oslo accords, I wouldn't be to worried if I were you.

At 1/15/09 09:18 AM, bcdemon wrote: Even though the UN gave the IDF GPS coordinate of all its locations in Gaza, Israel still targets them. And I only say they target them because they are using GPS guidance technology with their munitions. And if a store bought, handheld GPS device can get you within 1 meter (3 feet) of a bearing point, I'm pretty sure the military GPS can offer similar, if not better results. Is it a coincidence that the IDF destroy the UN headquarters in Gaza as the UN Secretary-General visits Israel seeking a ceasefire?

The hospital and UN compound were not hit by guided munitions but by artillery shells. Just like electronic components on precision missles can fail, the wind and other factors can make artillery inaccurate.
According to the IDF, soldiers came under fire from these buildings. There is not enough information at this point to know for sure what happened. I strongly doubt that any Palestinian will come forward and openly say Hamas was using the building, though, for obvious reasons.

And the bombing of the al Quds hospital constitutes a war crime, according to the Geneva Conventions.

Firing anti-tank weapons from hospitals is probably a war crime, too. Of course, it has been a few hours since this happened, so I'm not surprised you're fully ready to blame Israel entirely.

I just think its funny how the UN is proving so incredibly impotent in this conflict, yet so often in American politics we hear how we absolutely must get international support for our actions.

At 1/15/09 05:03 PM, adrshepard wrote: Firing anti-tank weapons from hospitals is probably a war crime, too. Of course, it has been a few hours since this happened, so I'm not surprised you're fully ready to blame Israel entirely.

it would be, but given that Hamas militants don't constitute an army i doubt the charge of war crimes is applicable, or is it?

I just think its funny how the UN is proving so incredibly impotent in this conflict, yet so often in American politics we hear how we absolutely must get international support for our actions.

an armed UN force restoring order in Gaza, and therefore hopefully allowing Israel to open its borders and trade, would probably be the best solution, but i think we all know how much the UN likes to pitch in in useful and concrete ways.

At 1/15/09 04:38 AM, 4urentertainment wrote: Just because Hamas won't listen doesn't mean you should kill it, and everyone else too.

I can see what you're saying here, but the mere fact that if Hamas won't listen, well that means a ceasefire is pretty much impossible isn't it? If they won't honor treaties, pleas, or anything resembling a peaceful solution then it isn't like Israel or anyone they're hostile towards can just go "well, let's just drop our guns and try to hope for the best right?". It doesn't work like that. Maybe if they were willing to sit down and negotiate a real ceasefire and general amnesty, but if they ain't, and they want to be hostile, then bad things are gonna happen unfortunately.

I hate to just jump in this thread and then leave, but I've noticed that one too many people read posts and skip over the points that seem to be the most important. Not naming anyone, of course.

What I really want to truly understand about this whole thing is not necessarily the point of the thread itself, but why people feel the need to win. Why is it that no one can concede to the opposition and accept that their side has indeed done some wrongs? And if one is misinformed, why can't he or she admit that he or she was, and then take a more neutral stance. Are human beings really incapable of setting their pride aside?

At 1/16/09 12:18 AM, Mr-President wrote: What I really want to truly understand about this whole thing is not necessarily the point of the thread itself, but why people feel the need to win. Why is it that no one can concede to the opposition and accept that their side has indeed done some wrongs? And if one is misinformed, why can't he or she admit that he or she was, and then take a more neutral stance. Are human beings really incapable of setting their pride aside?

I don't know that's it's human beings in general, but it does certainly seem to be a trait inherent in NG Politics postsers :)

<3 you crazy mother fuckers though.

I try to do what you said as often as possible. I've realized that there is no side that can be won, what we should strive for is to find the truth. The more emotion someone brings into an argument, the less they are trying to find the truth and the more they are trying to prove themselves right. The key is trying to figure out what will invoke less emotion.

But in the case of Israel, it is almost impossible to find people who can try to see it without viewing it radically pro or anti. It's very hard to get a clear picture due to this, but again it's important that we try to do it. So I am with you, brother.

At 1/15/09 09:57 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

an armed UN force restoring order in Gaza, and therefore hopefully allowing Israel to open its borders and trade, would probably be the best solution, but i think we all know how much the UN likes to pitch in in useful and concrete ways.

Excuse me if I doubt the effectiveness of the UN peacekeeping forces. They stationed them in south Lebanon and the Hezbollah is still controlling the region.

As for the brutality of the IDF, that's a big load of bullshit. I'm just got back home from the battle zone and I have seen first hand just what is going on. IDF is going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Heck, our medical forces treat a lot of the wounded and sick.

And one other thing. Has anyone ever considered that the water, electricity, fuel and food in Gaza is recieved from Israel? All we have to do to destroy the population is shut down the transfer of supplies and wait. No need to waste money on plane fuel or tank shells. No need to risk Israeli soldiers. We just have to wait. Istead the IDF is sent in to hit Hamas in as clean a fashion as it can (and yes, no army can avoid civillian casulties) so that the people in South Israel can lead their lives without fear of the rockets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan /16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza

At 1/16/09 02:54 AM, JackOfShadows wrote: Excuse me if I doubt the effectiveness of the UN peacekeeping forces. They stationed them in south Lebanon and the Hezbollah is still controlling the region.

i specified "armed UN forces" because i know the UN's actions are generally worth nothing. the armed forces i was referring to were part of the early UN's hopes at having its own army, constituted of units from member nations, and who are actually granted the ability to fight and keep control like a real army. but i know the closest thing to that that would ever happen would be the use of peace keepers whose sole power would be to protect themselves (ineffectively).

No one wants to comment?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan /16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza

At 1/16/09 09:01 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: No one wants to comment?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan /16/phosphorus-bombs-video-israel-gaza

It's nice and all that you found a source. You don't have to be so annoying about it.

As for a comment, white phosphorus is legal. It's used to create smoke screens. If anyone was hit by it, it was just an accident.
Besides, to get hit by an IFV's smoke grenade you'd have to be pretty close to the said IFV. What was an innocent man doing walking around near tanks?

White Phos is not a grenade to the poster above. It is a tank shell or artillery shell fired. It is illegal if used to target civilian areas. Which Israel has done, such as the shells hitting the UN HQ.

In addition, here is a first hand picture from the BBC of a UN school being bombed by Israel;

Bombing UN School (medics and civilians flee for cover)

The UN openly talks about war crime charges now, I hope so, I really do. Knock some sense into the Israeli side.

PS, if anyone intelligent here wants to get above the general tit-for-tat comments, the Economist had a great article on Gaza as the Editorial in the last issue. It was very balanced. I can't repeat it here for plagarism reasons, but it should be on their website.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1r0oHlS_

L8

I love the headlines in our local paper today "Hamas to keep fighting " even if Israel stops.
Apparently if Israel follows the U.N.'s call for a unilateral cease fire & pull out, Beirut based Hamas spokesman Osama Hamden, has said that if Israel does not consider Hamas demands they will keep fighting.
And I quote this moron.
"Today ,the movements delegation arrives in Cairo. To be clear we have nothing new to offer. We are not going to go back to the first point in the discussions and dialogue. Either we hear what we want or we will be continuing the confrontation on the ground ." Unquoting this stund Moron !!!

This ass goes on further saying that calling a cease fire while negotiations are underway in Cairo "undermines the negotiators "

So those of you who have your heads right up your own A&&#^(* s , might want to chew on that for a couple of minutes.
This Hamas spokesman who is a close confidant of Khaled Mashaal, a leader of Hamas in Gaza. Has told the World... these terrorists would rather continue the fighting than give the Palestinian people in Gaza a cease fire. You want to label the Israeli's as war criminals, Well ladies & gentlemen , what exactly would you like to call these people ?

Let us not forget for 1 moment this guy (and all the other "leaders" (& I use that term very loosely) is safe in Beirut ,Lebanon. Many of the other "leaders" (again loosely) are in Syria.
1100 + dead Palestinians.
6000 + wounded.
But they will fight on as long as they've got sheilds to hide behind....oh sorry, As Long As They've Got Woman & Children To Hide Behind !
Time to call a spade a spade .

At 1/17/09 07:06 AM, Sarai wrote: White Phos is not a grenade to the poster above. It is a tank shell or artillery shell fired.

You're talking to a tankman here. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

It is illegal if used to target civilian areas. Which Israel has done, such as the shells hitting the UN HQ.

Do you have any proof that it was WP shells? Judging by the photos, it looks like ordinary shrapnel.

The ones to blame for the shelling of the schools are the Hamas, who fire rockets from civillian areas. They are the ones putting their citizens in danger.

At 1/17/09 08:34 AM, JackOfShadows wrote:

At 1/17/09 07:06 AM, Sarai wrote: White Phos is not a grenade to the poster above. It is a tank shell or artillery shell fired.

You're talking to a tankman here. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

No, you obviously don't have a full range of knowledge then. White Phos is fired by tank Shells, Missile based weapons, mortars, planes etc. You don't have white phos grenades because the blast range is too large to throw them. Seriously, go read Janes or even Wiki about White Phos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosp horous

It is illegal if used to target civilian areas. Which Israel has done, such as the shells hitting the UN HQ.

Do you have any proof that it was WP shells? Judging by the photos, it looks like ordinary shrapnel.

Never said that photo was White Phos. Go to HRW website (Human Rights Watch) or some of the Israeli based charities who have photographic evidence of it.

The ones to blame for the shelling of the schools are the Hamas, who fire rockets from civillian areas. They are the ones putting their citizens in danger.

No, we've had this discussion before. You can't apply traditional war stategies against this conflict.

Also, for the poster above who hasn't learned to be polite in their posts, perhaps they should quote all sources. The 'ceasefire' includes the provision that the blockade remains in place and that Israeli forces stay in Gaza.

Do you think that Hamas can either i) Accept Israeli presence on their streets? or ii) Has enough authority to ensure that all fighters stop shooting at the Israeli's?

Since the answer to i + ii) is NO. Then there's no point in the ceasefire, someone will either i) Take a potshot at an Israeli, starting it all again, or basically since none of the reasons for the fighting are lifted (blockade etc) there's nothing for them to agree to.

I wouldn't damn agree to a ceasefire if my lands had foreign tanks and soldiers on them. And that statement is independent of Hamas themselves being terrorists. If Israel really wanted a ceasefire, they would withdraw outside of Gaza, let the UN take control of the borders and allow Egypt to destroy the weapons tunnels. Without weapons Hamas is not the threat, but with a blockade people support them. None of you guys get that, if you beat a people into submission they will hate you.

At 1/17/09 08:41 AM, Sarai wrote:

No, you obviously don't have a full range of knowledge then. White Phos is fired by tank Shells, Missile based weapons, mortars, planes etc. You don't have white phos grenades because the blast range is too large to throw them. Seriously, go read Janes or even Wiki about White Phos.

Dude, read the link I posted. It plains states that WP grenades can be launched from IFVs. I fact, I have launched such grenades.

As for WP attacks, there is a lot of evidence against these claims. I guess we just want to believe different claims.

At 1/17/09 08:41 AM, Sarai wrote:

I wouldn't damn agree to a ceasefire if my lands had foreign tanks and soldiers on them. And that statement is independent of Hamas themselves being terrorists. If Israel really wanted a ceasefire, they would withdraw outside of Gaza, let the UN take control of the borders and allow Egypt to destroy the weapons tunnels. Without weapons Hamas is not the threat, but with a blockade people support them. None of you guys get that, if you beat a people into submission they will hate you.

;;;;;;
Dear sweet lovely Sari.
Israel isn't on Hamas's land.
Israel has invaded Gaza.... Palestinian land. Do you see the difference ?
According to you "Innocent Palestinians are being killed by WAR CRIMES perpetrated by Israeli Defence Forces."
That is your & many other protestors claims. OR have I got it completely wrong & I have my head up my ass & because of that " I " am not hearing/reading you correctly ?

Why are you convieniently leaving out the Hamas demand (Not Palestinian Innocent woman & childrens demand ) Hamas's demand that NO OTHER ORGANIZATION can have observers in Gaza ?

You like to leave things out as well, dear sweet Sari. No United Nations Observers N O N E, are acceptable to Hamas !

What part of NONE do you not understand & i'll attempt to find a link ,explaining "none" in that Hamas demand for you ?

Secondly Eygpt will not get involved BECAUSE THEY'RE Smarter than your giving them credit for.
In order for EYGPT to DESTROY , tunnels into Gaza....they would have to .....can you guess ?
I will make it easy....They will have to INVADE GAZAN TERRITORY !
Which they are no where near stupid enough to do. The best they could do is block tunnels that come into Eygptian territory, that doesn't mean they couldn't tunnel to the left or right & come up in a new spot in Eygpt. After all Hamas has monetary backing from Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria...So there is no lack of Eygption Landowners on the border who would welcome a little bakeeesh or maybe its called 'rent' since property is invlolved. Please none of you kid yourselves there's LOT's OF MONEY INVOLVED !

So you wouldn't quote"damn agree", that a cease fire to help out the -AS YOU PUT IT AGAIN " innocent Palestinian ,Men ,Women, & children." & get them out of immediate harms way .

I'm not sure about some of you other readers to this thread, but I'm getting the feeling that Sari, has just gone from protester about War atrocities to participant in Hamas's plans. After all she just told everyone here 'She wouldn't agree if people & their equipment were still there to ensure no more missiles attack innocents in Israel.' Even though that would allow all the medical aid & food & help the -according to Sari & others like her- poor innocent Palestinians are suffering through this illegal & criminal attack.
I guess they need to suffer a bit more, because we wouldn't want to cramp the Terrorists rearmament plans, which unless your an imbecillic moron , they are going to use this time to rearm & redeploy.

AND > NOTE ! I want to make it perfectly CLEAR "I don't think any of you that post here are that" because I've met several of those type of mentally handicapped people when my dad worked at a local mental institution. They can't work a spoon with food on it into their mouths, but they're still intelligent enough to recognise there is food ! <NOTE

Which backs up my earlier claims in this thread that , protestors are actually on the Hamas side & helping Hamas. because IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO PROTECT INNOCENT WOMEN, CHILDREN & MEN! ! ! !All you would want first is the fighting to stop, the rest you can work out later .

Thank you so much for clearing that up Sari. That was a nice reply from you...very friendly .