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At 1/11/09 04:01 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 1/9/09 07:53 AM, bcdemon wrote: I was shocked to shit hear the USA abstained from this vote. 99.9% of the time they would veto such a resolution. This is monumental, and way to go USA.

I didn't take that to mean we were somehow trying to see both sides of the issue. I took it to mean we're still firmly in the Israeli corner, but we just didn't want to publicize it or look even more like the nation of "we know fucking well better then anybody else" at the present moment.

The USA usually vetoes anything critical of Israel. That's why I was shocked to see the USA abstain from this vote. Which to me says "yeah we support Israel, but a ceasefire would be cool too", whereas a couple weeks ago the attitude was "we support Israel, and their choice to bomb the shit out of Gaza", basically turning a blind eye.

At 1/10/09 01:28 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: It's not a self defence when it's indiscriminate. If Hamas can keep their rocket attacks focused on military targets, why is it the Israelis seem incapable of being as selective, given their superior firepower and military technology?

You are wildly misinformed. Hamas is firing simple, portable, unguided rockets. There is no targeting and they are completely indiscrimate. Israel's weapons are precise against static targets, which is why the air strikes only inflicted about 25-40% civilian casualties. Tank shells and mortars are less accurate and fired in the heat of battle. Mistakes happen, and armies try to avoid it. Hamas' positioning of militants and rocket sites are not making things easier for the IDF, and that is intentional on their part.

Yet Hamas have inflicted less civilian casualties than Israel, despite their "simple" weaponry. Nopw, either they have a hell of a lot of luck, are remarkably good shots, or are at least taking time to aim.

Come on, how doi you shell one of your own tanks from two blocks away? Heat of battle or not, it's common sense that dictates that if it's a tank, it's on your side, so aim either side of it.

That is because the houses were often booby-trapped.

Lety's start with this case: http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Da y/021010/2002101017.html
Were all five houses, the school and the market all boobytrapped?

Which one? When you shell four apartment buildings, you sort of lose the right to say the building is booby trapped - it's FOUR whole apartment buildings, for one.

Or how about the time they were demolishing Arafat's compound with bulldozers? Was that boobytrapped?

No, the quick devastation of the Arab armies in 1948 and in the 70's by the Israelis deprives them of that right. The land belongs to the Israelis now. If you can't accept that, then you can move back to where ever the hell your Germanic ancestors came from before they swept west into the Roman Empire.

No, it does not deprive them of the right to their land, be it the land they gave up in the initial agreements of the borders of the Israeli state or the land they were driven from as the ink was still drying on the agreement.

And the fact is that for every time a pro-Israeli says "What about this, that or the other" as an excuse for everything Israel does, the fact remains that it has only been their land for 60 years, which is nothing compared to those who held the right to it for much longer - so, therefore, you must excuse Hamas for their actions as you can't claim one rule for one but not the other.

And, for your information, as my ancestory is Celtic, I have the right to be where I am (which would be England, if you bothered to check), as my ancestors were here before the Romans, Saxons or Normans, so you've made yourself look like an ass there.

A basic tenet of national sovereignty is the right to secure territorial boundaries. The outposts are intended to keep Gazans out of Israel, which is perfectly legitimate. The Gazans have no natural right to enter Israel.

Is it also a tenet not to allow journalists in, should they report what is actually happening there? Because, if you haven't noticed, very few journalists are in Gaza to give on-the-spot reports right now: the BBC, for example, are on the Israel/Gaza border and reporting what they're fed. Why isn't Israel letting them in? What do they have to hide? And, after all, if they don't like what they read they can just shoot them, asa they do all too regularly:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/may /04/israel.middleeastthemedia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/apr /04/middleeastthemedia.israel
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_artic le=3881
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/25 6211
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article 9470.shtml
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article 5946.shtml
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Da y/020329/2002032937.html

Considering the Israelis were vastly outnumbered by the Palestinians, who started the violence in the first place after the UN declaration, it is not unreasonable that Israel would seek more territory and defensible borders. The victory over the Arab armies from Syria, Egypt, and others certainly gave them reason to fear future attack.

"Seek" is not the same word as "take" - never has been, never will be.

By aggression you are referring to the 1948 war and the one in the 70s. On both occasions Israel was attacked first. I would ask that you identify Israeli acts of aggression after the Yom Kippur War.

I see the Suez Crisis, as usual in these cases, is ignored completely...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. Hamas is far more in violation of international rules and conventions than Israel arguably ever could be.

Part of the reason Hamas were democratically elected was because Israel managed to give people a(nother) reason to vote for them by trying to prevent voting in East Jerusalem, which was allowed in all previous elections yet suddenly wasn't in 2006 - because Hamas were well supported in East Jerusalem and, as a result, would gain a proportion of seats. They helped Hamas' cuase further by limiting the numbers of Palestinians who could vote, banning Hamas supporters from voting, and closing Hamas election offices.

By doing this, Israel gave the Palestinians a reason to vote for them, making them a(nother) symbol of how Israel oppresses Palestine - so if we want to play the Who Started It game, if Israel left alone there is the possibility Fatah, who recognise Israel (Hamas does not), would still be the ruling party.

You think Israel is not aggressive? Most enjoy seeing suffering, i agree Hamas are unwelcome in Palestine, i myself and Fatah, my father is an ambassador, If they want to kill Hamas go ahead, don't fucking attack Gaza and kill kids, women, and innocent men.

Please don't start an argument, Hamas are very aggressive actually. I agree on that.

I lived in Palestine as a kid and got a sniper pointed to my head as a child, when i looked out the window when i was 4 i looked out the window and the man pointed the sniper, then i learned that not all soldiers are cruel. He put his gun down and waved to me after he saw me.

But he must be a Hamas member right, like why else would he blame the Jews?

Of course, what other reason is there?

Oh, riiiiight I had forgotten. HATE! :D I'm happy you reminded me, cause I forget that 9/10ths of the middle east is full of it.

That's like asking why else would a skinhead blame Obama :S

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Yet Hamas have inflicted less civilian casualties than Israel, despite their "simple" weaponry. Nopw, either they have a hell of a lot of luck, are remarkably good shots, or are at least taking time to aim.

I think this gem should disqualify you from taking part in this thread any more, but since this is Newgrounds, there's no chance of that.
It is impossible to aim these rockets. You can send them in a general direction, you can adjust the payload and fuel, and thats about it. They do not compensate for wind or anything, much like the V2 rockets of WWII. Lots of V2s and Grad rockets landed harmlessly in the ocean or away from populated areas. Some did not. There are not very many Israeli casualties in these cases because Israel possesses advanced warning radar and sounds sirens. Hamas doesn't possess the technology to detect Israeli aircraft, and so has no idea when an attack is coming.

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Lety's start with this case: http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Da y/021010/2002101017.html
Were all five houses, the school and the market all boobytrapped?

arabicnews.com? Please. Get a real source. Or do you expect me to believe that a news agency that caters exclusively to Arabs is going to be completely objective covering the Israel/Palestinian conflict?

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Which one? When you shell four apartment buildings, you sort of lose the right to say the building is booby trapped - it's FOUR whole apartment buildings, for one.

Yes, completely omit the fact that this was during the time the Palestinians kidnapped Israeli soldiers (in addition to the normal rocket attacks). As it is, that article says nothing. Find me the subsequent articles with the Israeli investigation and you may have something.

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Or how about the time they were demolishing Arafat's compound with bulldozers? Was that boobytrapped?

Are you crying over the destruction of a federal building?

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: No, it does not deprive them of the right to their land, be it the land they gave up in the initial agreements of the borders of the Israeli state or the land they were driven from as the ink was still drying on the agreement.

What world are you living in? Land is the most basic if not most important commodity of human civilization, and force has always been the predominant means of acquiring it. National territory isn't defined by the history of the peoples who live there or their identity, but by how far states can impress their influence on people around them and how well it can defend its borders from foreign threats. That's the basic truth of it, all rhetoric aside. You should recognize this and stop grasping at absolute rules to apply to a completely anarchic system.

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: And the fact is that for every time a pro-Israeli says "What about this, that or the other" as an excuse for everything Israel does, the fact remains that it has only been their land for 60 years, which is nothing compared to those who held the right to it for much longer - so, therefore, you must excuse Hamas for their actions as you can't claim one rule for one but not the other.

That's not how that argument is supposed to go. You feel sympathy for them, but you do not excuse their conduct. Suicide bombing civilians, launching rocket attacks for no military purpose, abducting and torturing Israeli soldiers, there's no excuse, no justification, ever. It's tough shit for them and unfortunate that there was no way for the 1948 transition to be peaceful. But make no mistake; at the most fundamental level, the only thing that is "yours", the only thing you have a "right" to is what you can take and keep by force. If you can't accept that basic fact of human nature then I don't know what to say.

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: And, for your information, as my ancestory is Celtic, I have the right to be where I am (which would be England, if you bothered to check), as my ancestors were here before the Romans, Saxons or Normans, so you've made yourself look like an ass there.

Ahh yes, be proud of that malingering nazi-collaborating heritage!

Is it also a tenet not to allow journalists in, should they report what is actually happening there? Because, if you haven't noticed, very few journalists are in Gaza to give on-the-spot reports right now: the BBC, for example, are on the Israel/Gaza border and reporting what they're fed. Why isn't Israel letting them in? What do they have to hide? And, after all, if they don't like what they read they can just shoot them, asa they do all too regularly:

I think I've explained this earlier. You are a perfect example of why they shouldn't allow foreign journalists into Gaza. You disapprove of the very existence of Israel and justify terrorist acts against it. What news from Gaza could ever change your mind?
Journalists getting killed in warzones is nothing new. Happened in both World Wars, Vietnam, Iraq, and now here. You're fooling yourself if you believe there is some secret Israeli agenda to kill reporters.

By aggression you are referring to the 1948 war and the one in the 70s. On both occasions Israel was attacked first. I would ask that you identify Israeli acts of aggression after the Yom Kippur War.

I see the Suez Crisis, as usual in these cases, is ignored completely...

You're right. The Israeli conquest of the Sinai peninsula was nothing more than Israeli aggression. It's not as if the Egyptians cut off all Israeli trade with the Red Sea, or assisted Palestinian militants in attacks against Israel or anything like that.
Before you start, there is no parallel between that and the blockade of Hamas. Egypt and Hamas targeted the existence of Israel itself, where as the Israelis are responding to hostility.

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Part of the reason Hamas were democratically elected was because Israel managed to give people a(nother) reason to vote for them by trying to prevent voting in East Jerusalem, which was allowed in all previous elections yet suddenly wasn't in 2006 - because Hamas were well supported in East Jerusalem and, as a result, would gain a proportion of seats...

Well, I guess the Palestinians know better now than to simply vote for a party because Israel doesn't like them, don't they?

At 1/11/09 12:07 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: By doing this, Israel gave the Palestinians a reason to vote for them, making them a(nother) symbol of how Israel oppresses Palestine - so if we want to play the Who Started It game, if Israel left alone there is the possibility Fatah, who recognise Israel (Hamas does not), would still be the ruling party.

Again, you're right. Israel should just have stood by and allowed Palestinians to vote terrorists into office in a territory that Israel controls. Notice that Fatah dominates the West Bank now.

At 1/11/09 05:02 PM, ForgotenSin wrote: You think Israel is not aggressive? Most enjoy seeing suffering, i agree Hamas are unwelcome in Palestine, i myself and Fatah, my father is an ambassador, If they want to kill Hamas go ahead, don't fucking attack Gaza and kill kids, women, and innocent men.

You actually believe that most Israelis are sadists and purposely target kids, women, and innocent men?
Killing civilians is inevitable, even with the upmost caution and advanced weaponry. But undoubtedly more would be killed with less sophisticated methods.

I'm sorry but I must say this topic is hopeless. To many people don't know there facts.

At 1/11/09 06:36 AM, bcdemon wrote: The USA usually vetoes anything critical of Israel. That's why I was shocked to see the USA abstain from this vote. Which to me says "yeah we support Israel, but a ceasefire would be cool too", whereas a couple weeks ago the attitude was "we support Israel, and their choice to bomb the shit out of Gaza", basically turning a blind eye.

Sure, but at this point even the American media seems to be giving the impression of being critical to Israel. At this point it seems to me it'd be very very stupid to come off as the country that unabashidly supports the aggressor in this war. Especially when it seems our media is turning on it. So even if the brass at the top hasn't truly changed they're stance, it's in their best interest to act like they have. I don't see anything worth celebrating here to my mind. They're conceding under pressure to me, not cause they actually learned anything or would like to see a truly peaceful resolution.

At 1/10/09 06:26 AM, hippyhunter5 wrote: In other words, if you attack someone with a knife and they then blow your ass away with an AK it's your own fucking fault.

It's more like a stupid kid throwing pebbles at a big guy, and he blows the kid and the kid's whole school class away with a rocket launcher.

I'd still love to see statistics over the total amount of civilian casualties the Israelis have taken from the Hamas. Oddly enough, I can't find any on the internet.

At 1/11/09 07:29 PM, adrshepard wrote: Killing civilians is inevitable, even with the upmost caution and advanced weaponry. But undoubtedly more would be killed with less sophisticated methods.

Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?
There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

At 1/12/09 01:40 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?
There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

It's not about the deaths, it's about living in shelters for 3 years.
Just because we care about our civilians life, and they don't doesn't prove anything.
In the last two weeks 8 rockets direct hit Israeli schools, but no one died because all of the schools are closed in southern Israel.
On the other hand, you see Hamas trying to get as many civilians killed, because propaganda is their only tool.

Can't you see the irony? They try to get as many of us killed, and as many of themselves killed.
Many years this attack was halted, i'm glad it has come, and i hope we will finally crush these evil bastards.

Even the Palestinian authority is supporting Israel in this attack. Obviously they enjoy both sides and criticize Israel, but at the same time they push us to make the final invasion and take out Hamas, we are doing their job.

THE HORROR - LOOK AT THE HORROR:

At 1/12/09 02:06 AM, Doonie wrote: Even the Palestinian authority is supporting Israel in this attack. Obviously they enjoy both sides and criticize Israel, but at the same time they push us to make the final invasion and take out Hamas, we are doing their job.

First of, saying the PA supports this is completely wrong and misinformation at it's worst. Second, the only reason that hama controls the gaza bank is because Fatah tried to overthrow a democratically elected government and got their asses handed to them on the streets of gaza. This also has to do with the fact that they refuse to allow another election, and the president is now illegally staying on as head of state, of course, with the full support of both the USA and Israel, who actually armed the "good" militias in the west bank.

Lastly it should be noted that not 1 israeli died during the 6 month ceasefire, until AFTER israel started bombing mosques schools and homes in gaza, which is a war crime. It should also be said that Israel violated the terms of the ceasefire the whole time, as they've kept gaza blockaded like a concentration camp that the nazi's would be jealous of.

At 1/12/09 05:40 AM, ForkRobotik wrote: First of, saying the PA supports this is completely wrong and misinformation at it's worst. Second, the only reason that hama controls the gaza bank is because Fatah tried to overthrow a democratically elected government and got their asses handed to them on the streets of gaza. This also has to do with the fact that they refuse to allow another election, and the president is now illegally staying on as head of state, of course, with the full support of both the USA and Israel, who actually armed the "good" militias in the west bank.

The reason they control Gaza is because they violently took over Gaza, killing more Palestinians than Israel killed for few years, before this operation.
It's not illegaly, it doesn't matter even if Hamas get 99% of the parliament seats, the head of the PNA still stays in charge.

Lastly it should be noted that not 1 israeli died during the 6 month ceasefire.

But rockets were still fired during the cease fire, and people were still living in shelters.

until AFTER israel started bombing mosques schools and homes in gaza, which is a war crime.

You mean after Hamas shots hundreds of rockets into Israel, even though Israel let humanitarian aid in, and warned Hamas we will attack them if they continue.

Hiding weapons in a mosque is a warcrime, bombing it is not.
Hiding weapons in another mosque is a also a warcrime, bomb it is not.
Using your own population and homes as human shields is a warcrime, shooting back is not. Hiding weapons in urban areas is a warcrime, shooting back is not. Launching rockets from urban areas is a warcrime, shooting back is not, even though the majority of the times Israel does not shoot back.

It should also be said that Israel violated the terms of the ceasefire the whole time, as they've kept gaza blockaded like a concentration camp that the nazi's would be jealous of.

The blockade (That was backed by the UN and EU) was not erased because they continued launching rockets into Israel, daily, and because they continued smuggling weapons.
And again, a sting in the heart when you compare this to the Nazis. The only ones to resemble Nazis are the Palestinians.

At 1/12/09 01:40 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?
There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

According to this site, Hamas has killed 13 people by rocket attack from 2001 till April 27, 2008, and I think there was 1 death this year. So 14 Israelis died due to Hamas launching hundreds and hundreds of rockets over 7+ years. Israel has killed 300 children in the past 2 weeks.

At 1/12/09 02:06 AM, Doonie wrote: It's not about the deaths, it's about living in shelters for 3 years.

If Israel was losing 30-40 innocent civilians a day, then I guarantee you, you would be more concerned about the deaths. As it stands right now, Israel loses about 1 a month, so not a grave concern for you.
Hey, at least when Hamas rockets are launched, you have somewhere safe to go. Where do the Palestinians go when the IDF launches missiles? Usually to the grave.

In the last two weeks 8 rockets direct hit Israeli schools, but no one died because all of the schools are closed in southern Israel.

And the IDF has bombed 3 UN schools in Gaza (And the University). Accept these schools are used by people fleeing their homes. And here is an update about the UN school, the IDF now says that the UN school bombing was caused by a stray mortar. First it was Hamas firing rockets from the within the school compound, then it was Hamas fired from outside the school compound and booby trapped the school, and now it was a stray mortar.

Even the Palestinian authority is supporting Israel in this attack.

If you're going to post claims like this, post a link to the actual news story.

At 1/12/09 09:40 AM, bcdemon wrote:

If Israel was losing 30-40 innocent civilians a day, then I guarantee you, you would be more concerned about the deaths. As it stands right now, Israel loses about 1 a month, so not a grave concern for you.
Hey, at least when Hamas rockets are launched, you have somewhere safe to go. Where do the Palestinians go when the IDF launches missiles? Usually to the grave.

If Israel lost 40 people a day, this invasion would have happened years ago. I love how people keep saying, "I can't believe Israel is fighting back!" Hamas has been kicking a sleeping bear for years. Last month, the bear woke up. As far as dead civilians go, its sad, but Israel can't stay its hand while Hamas launches rockets into Israel until the end of time. Israel has to protect its territory. Hamas hides among civilians to deter retaliation and to use civilian deaths as propaganda to recruit more militants. If they fought in the open away from civilians, they would be wiped out within a day.

This fight could have been avoided easily. The only people who could have avoided it was Hamas itself. However it chose to be hostile and attack a neighbor with a superior military on a daily basis.

Any civilian blood is on the Hamas leaders' hands. This is much like the atomic bombs on Japan in ww2. Sure, it killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese and wiped out 2 cities, but a conventional invasion would have costed even more lives for the allies.

My question is to you Bcdemon. What do you want Israel to do? sit in their asses while Hamas keeps getting bigger and better weapons? Hamas isn't going to stop. Hamas wouldn't stop even if Israel did away with the blockade. What is Hamas got their hands on radioactive munitions? do you think they would hesitate to fire it into Israel?

At 1/11/09 07:29 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 1/11/09 05:02 PM, ForgotenSin wrote: You think Israel is not aggressive? Most enjoy seeing suffering, i agree Hamas are unwelcome in Palestine, i myself and Fatah, my father is an ambassador, If they want to kill Hamas go ahead, don't fucking attack Gaza and kill kids, women, and innocent men.

You actually believe that most Israelis are sadists and purposely target kids, women, and innocent men?
Killing civilians is inevitable, even with the upmost caution and advanced weaponry. But undoubtedly more would be killed with less sophisticated methods.

I never said that, but they do acctaully have a right to not want to go to Gaza and slaughter. Most of them did quit. I may have made a mistake because i am pretty pissed off right now. But i don't want to take it out on Israel. It's Hamas's fault for starting. I don't like Hamas, never probably will, but Hamas killed 2 soldiers, Israel has killed around 900 "INNOCENT" people, Hamas deserve what they get, some are psychos, they said that they won the war for not dieng.

I'm sorry if i said something wrong, i speak what's on my mind. Appoligise if i disrespected anyone. Thank you.

At 1/12/09 02:06 AM, Doonie wrote:

At 1/12/09 01:40 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?
There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

It's not about the deaths, it's about living in shelters for 3 years.
Just because we care about our civilians life, and they don't doesn't prove anything.
In the last two weeks 8 rockets direct hit Israeli schools, but no one died because all of the schools are closed in southern Israel.
On the other hand, you see Hamas trying to get as many civilians killed, because propaganda is their only tool.

Can't you see the irony? They try to get as many of us killed, and as many of themselves killed.
Many years this attack was halted, i'm glad it has come, and i hope we will finally crush these evil bastards.

Even the Palestinian authority is supporting Israel in this attack. Obviously they enjoy both sides and criticize Israel, but at the same time they push us to make the final invasion and take out Hamas, we are doing their job.

THE HORROR - LOOK AT THE HORROR:

Don't jump to conclusions, The PLO mission does not support this, i don't support Israel killing men, old men etc. I support that Hamas be slaughtered. Some one related to me is an amazing Ambassador. He is probably one of the best in the world. He has been a politician for a very long time in Palestine. He was very good friends Abu amar. And he knows, that this is wrong. People who think killing kids is right. Are messed up. Hamas deserve what *they* got, why should Gaza suffer for what Hamas started. Please take your time to understand my situation.

At 1/12/09 09:40 AM, bcdemon wrote:

There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

;;;;;;
You need to get that information to the police services in the U.S. or was the fiasco in Waco Texas something I dreamed up on my own.

According to this site, Hamas has killed 13 people by rocket attack from 2001 till April 27, 2008, and I think there was 1 death this year. So 14 Israelis died due to Hamas launching hundreds and hundreds of rockets over 7+ years. Israel has killed 300 children in the past 2 weeks.

;;;;;;;
To start with Hamass took over Gaza in a coup from the elected Fatah faction. Hamass wants Israel destroyed no matter what, Fatah were attempting to negotiate with Israel. Fatah recognises Israel ,Hamass does not.
So Hamass are a militant group who's aims to destroy Israel at any cost...even the cost of their own people. But that's nothing new they've been killing their own Palestinian people since day one !

Where have all you protesters been about that bit of savagery eh.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/8707 63.html
As that link shows, executions without trial, killing children & attmpting to blame Israel to hide their crimes.
Hamass's has shown it cares nothing for its own people, it obviously cares nothing for any Israeli to the point indiscriminatly firing explosive ordinance at the Israeli people around Gaza.

So if your going to protest this terrible event, protest for Hamass to lay down their guns for the good of their people. But be prepared for nothing to happen, except this gang of killers to keep on putting Palestinian men,women & of course the children in harms way.
You want to protest & put pressure on stopping this conflict that is in my opinion the way to doit.

Any other way just shows you are on Hamass's side, so your helping a terrorist organization whether you mean to or not, that's what your doing.

At 1/12/09 10:42 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

So if your going to protest this terrible event, protest for Hamass to lay down their guns for the good of their people. But be prepared for nothing to happen, except this gang of killers to keep on putting Palestinian men,women & of course the children in harms way.

So basically you're trying to say that we're supposed to be protesting against a terrorist group? Isn't that sort of like protesting against al qaida? Terrorist groups are made up of sociopaths who care nothing for people's lives but understand that other people do care and they exploit that weakness. They are fueled by power hungry individuals who want to achieve their ideological or financial demands. Protesting against hamas is completely useless. Knowing this, you are telling us to waste our time. You offer no solutions but to allow the continued bombings of civilians.

You want to protest & put pressure on stopping this conflict that is in my opinion the way to doit.

Again, by telling us to do this you're offering a non solution because Israel has always been in control of the situation. They are the one with the firepower, the resources. Evidentally, however they do not have the sense to realize that retaliating, they are supporting the ones that terrorize them by going through human shields without guilt. What if instead of civilians the shields were other Israeli soldiers? Well by your proposal they should just mow whoever is standing between them and hamas leaders. And then they will justify this by saying it was an honorable death for the soldiers. what have the soldiers turned into in the meantime? Terrorists.

Any other way just shows you are on Hamass's side, so your helping a terrorist organization whether you mean to or not, that's what your doing.

I support the way to peace. And the way that you believe in is one that would, if continued, lead to not only the destruction of all palestinians, but also the destruction of Israel.

Youtube is not a reliable source for this and discussions will not be entered into. It's well known both the IDF and to a much lesser extent Hamas post properganda videos on Youtube. Thus accredited international organizations such as NGOs, charities and independent media outlets are a far better source of unbiased information.

We don't need any more bullshit in this thread which is why I quote from News Sources only that are based OUTSIDE the Middle East but usually have correspondents or desks located in the region. A good portfolio of News Organizations is CNN/BBC and for a little more bias Fox/Al-Jazeera. The BBC maintains a healthy lead over its rivals by being in my view one of the best and least bias news organizations in the world. In addition it has people on the ground in Gaza, something only the bias Al-Jazeera can manage.

Don't let the IDF rule the airwaves as well as rule the sky :) Seek independent coverage and then make your own mind up on the truth.

The facts are that both sides commit war-crimes against each other, both have been accused by International Governments, Charities and other organizations. You can't support either Israel or Hamas in their goals as both their goals are not genuine. Hamas at the moment is not a reliable partner for negotiations based on a docterine of violence. Israel is also not a faithful partner due to continued breaches of their own commitments. The fact of the matter is that one must hold a 'Democracy' up to higher standards than a terrorist, otherwise the world is full of elected Terrorists.

In response to some of the bullshit here from certain posters who for example claimed that:

i) Militants fired weapons from the UN school that Israel attacked killing 30....
ANSWER: Israel now admits the weapons were 'off-target' and that militants did not fire from the school.
SOURCE: Source

In addition the following interesting articles

ii) Israel denies using banned weapons:
Background: Certain burning weapons (Phosphorous) are banned in civilian areas. Israel denies using them but independent stories from multiple sources including video evidence seems to contradict this. One can recall in the Lebanon war Israel denying (and then owning up) and also the use of Cluster Weapons in the last few hours of the war that have continued to kill civilians for months.
SOURCE: Israel denies using banned weapons

iii) Saving the best to last: Is Israel Racist?
Background: Israel BANS the two main Arab political parties from contesting the next election. The ban was sponsored by the Ultra-Nationalist Jewish parties and passed the vote. The stated reasons were "accusing them of supporting terrorism" and "did not recognise Israel's existence as a Jewish and democratic state". It's interesting that Israeli Arabs DO have citizenship, so one must assume they now 'no longer' recognise the state.

In any case, the parties plan to appeal a ruling they call openly racist, Israel Bans it's own Opposition Parties The parties had 7 seats at the last election.... Nice way to disenfranchise the Arabs? Or is there something else to it, what are their 'terrorist links'?

Anyway, some news from the wire :) Just throwing it out against the general properganda BS from two users.

At 1/12/09 10:42 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/12/09 09:40 AM, bcdemon wrote:

There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

;;;;;;
You need to get that information to the police services in the U.S. or was the fiasco in Waco Texas something I dreamed up on my own.

Umm why are you telling me this? Sajberhippien is the one who said that.

According to this site, Hamas has killed 13 people by rocket attack from 2001 till April 27, 2008, and I think there was 1 death this year. So 14 Israelis died due to Hamas launching hundreds and hundreds of rockets over 7+ years. Israel has killed 300 children in the past 2 weeks.

;;;;;;;
To start with Hamass took over Gaza in a coup from the elected Fatah faction. Hamass wants Israel destroyed no matter what, Fatah were attempting to negotiate with Israel. Fatah recognises Israel ,Hamass does not.

Why bother quoting me if you're not going to respond to what you quoted in the first place?

So Hamass are a militant group who's aims to destroy Israel at any cost...even the cost of their own people. But that's nothing new they've been killing their own Palestinian people since day one !

Where have all you protesters been about that bit of savagery eh.

I don't remember anyone complimenting Hamas on what they are doing, DO YOU?. In fact, most people on here protesting against Israel have said they don't approve of Hamas or their tactics, but you don't see that, you have that Bushology that "if you're not with us, you're against us". So all you see are the complaints against Israel, and you go off calling that person a terrorist supporter, even though they have made clear that they don't support terrorism.

So if your going to protest this terrible event, protest for Hamass to lay down their guns for the good of their people.
You want to protest & put pressure on stopping this conflict that is in my opinion the way to doit.

What is the point of protesting on this BBS about Hamas? We come here to debate shit with others, not post our feelings about certain situations.

But hey, let's try your way shall we:

Hey man, what the fuck is this Hamas shit? Do they think they are actually helping their people? They are helping the casualty list is all they're doing. Hamas should lay down their weapons.

Now let's see how many people even fucking notice that, much less make it worth my while by replying to it.

Any other way just shows you are on Hamass's side, so your helping a terrorist organization whether you mean to or not, that's what your doing.

Nah, it's only the ignorant or brainwashed ones that think if you protest against Israel that you are on Hamas side.

At 1/12/09 05:40 PM, bcdemon wrote: Nah, it's only the ignorant or brainwashed ones that think if you protest against Israel that you are on Hamas side.

This is a great thing to point out! I for one know many people dont agree with Hammas. They understand why people in palestine do support them. After all they do a lot for the poeple living their. All the protests around the world are in response to mass-murder of civilians on part of the Israeli army. No one is marching in support of Hammas. And again with the terrorism rubbish, tell me now, where would be the scarier side to be spending the night?

At 1/12/09 01:40 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?

1 in 3 according to who? Palestinian doctors in Gaza? Perhaps even from the same hospitals where Hamas leaders are said to be hiding?
The number of Israeli civilians who have died is completely irrelevant. I think I've explained that before uncontested.

At 1/12/09 05:30 PM, Sarai wrote: We don't need any more bullshit in this thread which is why I quote from News Sources only that are based OUTSIDE the Middle East but usually have correspondents or desks located in the region.

A lot of good that does if they aren't allowed in Gaza.

Don't let the IDF rule the airwaves as well as rule the sky :) Seek independent coverage and then make your own mind up on the truth.

Please. There is no independent coverage of this conflict because no one is there to cover it. They can only report what Hamas and Israel claim, along with a few scattered reports from the aid workers Israel lets in every day.

Israel is also not a faithful partner due to continued breaches of their own commitments.

Like what?

i) Militants fired weapons from the UN school that Israel attacked killing 30....
ANSWER: Israel now admits the weapons were 'off-target' and that militants did not fire from the school.

We can't trust Israeli "properganda" unless it supports our point of view, apparently. You and others were in a frenzy about how this was such an atrocity and outrage and it was nothing more than an errant mortar round (the other two hit the target). Also, the initial claim that militants were firing from the building does not suggest that there was a deliberate deception. The action is just one of multiple combat events that occur on a daily basis in Gaza. It takes time to sort through them all and conduct a full investigation.

ii) Israel denies using banned weapons:
Background: Certain burning weapons (Phosphorous) are banned in civilian areas.

This comes up time and time again. The phosphorus acts as a smoke screen and is delivered through artillery fire. Wind and the ballistics of the shells spread the effect over an area, and sometimes it blows into civilian areas. It isn't perfect, but its effectiveness as a smoke screen is beyond question.

iii) Saving the best to last: Is Israel Racist?
Background: Israel BANS the two main Arab political parties from contesting the next election. The ban was sponsored by the Ultra-Nationalist Jewish parties and passed the vote. The stated reasons were "accusing them of supporting terrorism" and "did not recognise Israel's existence as a Jewish and democratic state".

I'd say those are pretty good reasons for banning the parties.

Anyway, some news from the wire :) Just throwing it out against the general properganda BS from two users.

Do you think everyone just forgot the challenge I specifically directed at you that you're entirely ignoring? Go back a few pages and consider it. Otherwise you're just taking up space.

At 1/12/09 05:33 PM, rami-keyblade wrote:
hmm now how broke the ceasefire

Durrrr, terrorists speak pretty...

For Christ's sake, citing speeches from Hamas leaders? Are you absolutely retarded? Do not waste our time with such nonsense!

At 1/12/09 05:40 PM, bcdemon wrote: Hey man, what the fuck is this Hamas shit? Do they think they are actually helping their people? They are helping the casualty list is all they're doing. Hamas should lay down their weapons.

;;;;;
see look at this guy.
He's finally making some sense. Hamass is hiding in amoungst the non combatant Palestinians. That is putting them in danger & is why so many of them are dying. You want to protest Israel invasion of Gaza, you should be making sure you get the " Fuck off " Hamass info out there as well.

But you all spout how Israel has to stop...when 2 sides are fighting, its not over if one side stops & the other keeps fighting- or is it like that in la la land ?

Secondly Israel has said it will stop when they can assure the rockets stop.

IT isn't brain science boys & girls it's more like rocket surgery

At 1/12/09 09:40 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 1/12/09 01:40 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Sure, but now 1 in 3 killed are civilian children. How many israeli civilians has died due to the rocket attacks that led to this incident?
There's a reason a cop can't blow up a crowded house even if there's a murder suspect inside.

According to this site, Hamas has killed 13 people by rocket attack from 2001 till April 27, 2008, and I think there was 1 death this year. So 14 Israelis died due to Hamas launching hundreds and hundreds of rockets over 7+ years. Israel has killed 300 children in the past 2 weeks.

But not for lack of trying
http://qassamcount.com/

"Hey they just emptied their whole clip at us and are reloading! Can we shoot now?"

"Nope, we have to wait till they kill one of us."

Of course then we can only kill one of them.

At 1/12/09 08:37 PM, rami-keyblade wrote: Yup these are hamas leaders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXF X4

What do you suppose Hamas was building a tunnel a few hundred meters away from the Israel border for? A geological survey? Notice that Hamas does not try to explain away the existence of the tunnel. Also remember that it was a tunnel that allowed militants to capture the Israeli soldier Shalit a few years ago.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,
L-3617798,00.html
Excerpt:
"Palestinian sources told Ynet that IDF forces had recently arrested a Palestinian who was hurt while attempting to carry out a suicide bombing in the same area and that they assumed the man told the security forces about the tunnel dug in Gaza during his interrogation.

That information is believed to be the catalyst for the operation."

What's this? A suicide bombing attempt by a man who knew about a secret tunnel dug by Hamas? A completely isolated incident, I'm sure.

None of this changes the fact that you tried to cite a speech from a radical terrorist organization as irrefutable proof, rather than independently confirm the information yourself (as I just did). Only after I called you on it did you dig up this youtube video. Pretty sloppy.

Actually rami-blade, as you can see here :
http://qassamcount.com/

They were firing rockets and mortars since the very first month of the cease fire, therefor they broke it first, and they shot even more in the second month. But when Hamas shoots rockets people dont take it as "Cease fire breaking", that's the point of this whole war, to show that we will not let terrorists bomb our civilians with no response, like we did for 3 years. But when Israel shoots back, it's suddenly a cease fire breaking.

And for the "NGO" -
It's amazing how history repeats it self.
Just 6 years ago, the same operation like now happened in the West-Bank (It worked actually), Operation defensive shield.

The Palestinians claimed of a "war crimes" and a genocide, they also claimed at a Massacre of 3,000 Palestinians in Jenin. The British news agencies (Only them!) happily announced that the Israelis did a massacre, even the BBC article is still here :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1 937048.stm I can actually imagine us sitting here 6 years ago, and you using this NGO article as news. I claim it's a Palestinian propaganda, and you say "LOL IDF WAR CRIMES YOU ARE A KID YO BELIEVE WHAT EVER ISRAEL SAYS" Well yea, i do believe everything Israel says, because Israel is the only decent side and source here.

GJ, here goes your NGOS, that even today is being fed by terror organizations. BBC is much more biased than FOX anyway.

A rise in Antisemite events in the world, giant anti Israeli protests, world repots of Israel war crimes.
And at the end, like always, Israel was proven right (BBC-admit, The big Jenin Lie )

Israel have no reason to kill innocent people, Israel earns nothing from it. The war crimes relate to normal war with a rational enemy. Not when the enemy's government itself is using it's own supporting population as human shields, only. Not when the government is stealing the AID supplied by the world and Israel. Just let the good guys destroy fucking Hamas in Gaza already, and get us closer to peace and safety to both sides. The offensive cannot be just "stopped", it happened for a reason (It was also denied and denied for few years, because of the civilian casualties - this is the last resort), it's not just a war for the sake of war, there are clear Israeli objectives, and we are very close in achieving them.
Civilian casualties are very sad, and i can tell you that most of the Israelis are deeply sorry for them, but at the same time, this operation is inevitable and we tried everything to avoid it, and we feel that only Hamas, and indirectly the Palestinian themselves, should be blamed about it more than the Israelis. You had peace on a silver plate, free state, no more suffering - we gave it to them, and they chose Hamas. And that's because they are brainwashed against us since age 0. (Why should they stop? You support them)

What's wrong with banning the 2 Arab parties? Their leaders openly supported terror and denied Israel as a Jewish state, and some even cooperated with terrorists, it's perfectly democartic and legal act to ban them. The third Arab party did not do anything illegal and that's why they were not banned. (I'm pretty sure the ban would be appealed and the traitors would be right back on the track)

Lastly, i would like to remind you something.

The UK is taking part in the Iraq war, where few hundreds of thousands Iraqis were killed (Correct me if i'm wrong).

British soldiers beating up Iraqi children British soldiers beating up Iraqi children British soldiers beating up Iraqi children British soldiers beating up Iraqi children British soldiers beating up Iraqi children I wonder what would you do if we will ever see a video of Israeli soldiers doing that.

THAT'S a war crime, i wonder what other evil acts you satanic occupying force is doing in Iraq, poor Palestinia--- EHH WHOOPS, i meant poor Iraqi children, lolzi what an ironic accident.

At 1/12/09 08:22 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/12/09 05:40 PM, bcdemon wrote: Hey man, what the fuck is this Hamas shit? Do they think they are actually helping their people? They are helping the casualty list is all they're doing. Hamas should lay down their weapons.

;;;;;
see look at this guy.
He's finally making some sense.

You know you are the only one who got a hard on over that right?

The IDF kills more innocent civilians with one mortar/missile than Hamas has killed in 8 years of rocket and mortar attacks. Yet according to morefngdbs we should all focus on protesting against Hamas and allow Israel a free pass.

At 1/12/09 07:22 PM, adrshepard wrote: A lot of good that does if they aren't allowed in Gaza.

Which bit didn't you get about the BBC having people on the ground in Gaza? Muppet :0