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At 1/8/09 05:43 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 1/8/09 10:04 AM, Togukawa wrote: Do you think that when Israel attacks a school killing 40 civilians, or whenever Hamas uses human shields, that the Palestinians will realize how evil Hamas was and blame them for the deaths?

So you think it's perfectly okay for Hamas to get away with attacking Israel and then hiding behind civilians? You think it's perfectly acceptable to give in to the massive ignorance that you say would lead people to blame Israel for all the suffering?
Hamas is an organization of malevolent scumbags. It has to pay for what it has done. The fact that it employs civilian shields adds only more reason for it to be destroyed at all costs, not less.

I don't see how you can interpret what I said that way. Obviously Hamas is a bunch of evil scumbags and the one and only party to blame for the entire conflict, but do you think that the Palestinians themselves see it that way? It really doesn't matter who's to blame for this entire thing (Hamas) and who has the clear moral superiority and is the victim (Israel). What matters is whether this conflict will bring Israel closer to peace, will it bring an end to their long suffering under daily rocket attacks?

Put yourself in the place of generic Palestinian A. Imagine your entire family was among the civilian deaths in the UN school, and your house and everything you have is destroyed. What do you think is your most likely train of thought? "Fucking Hamas provoked Israel and got my family killed, damn them, boy am I glad Israel is here to save me from these scumbags. After this war is over we will all live together in peace, go Israel!" or "Fucking Israel is opressing us again, bombing the shit out of us, they are evil and just want to cause us grief! Man I am so gonna strike back and shoot some rockets at them!"

At 1/9/09 03:15 AM, Togukawa wrote: Put yourself in the place of generic Palestinian A. Imagine your entire family was among the civilian deaths in the UN school, and your house and everything you have is destroyed. What do you think is your most likely train of thought? "Fucking Hamas provoked Israel and got my family killed, damn them, boy am I glad Israel is here to save me from these scumbags. After this war is over we will all live together in peace, go Israel!" or "Fucking Israel is opressing us again, bombing the shit out of us, they are evil and just want to cause us grief! Man I am so gonna strike back and shoot some rockets at them!"

I actually think that this time, and i'll repeat this time, the attack is useful in both ways. There are many reports from Palestinians claiming Hamas are locking them in their houses and using them to combat, are grabbing children to escort squads, stealing UN aids and put them in their bunkers (Located under hospitals).
Now in this attack, for the first time, you can here voice from inside Gaza against Hamas, people are actually blaming Hamas. So i think, of course people would obviously hate Israel more, but since they saw how much of civilian life Hamas are willing to sacrifice, just to maintain their power, the support for Hamas will decrease.

That's why the attack is actually effective as well (Besides destroying Hamas). Unless, of course, the world pressure would be so tight that Israel will have to stop the attack -> Hamas declaring victory -> Hamas doing the only thing they are good at except using human shields: Propaganda -> Support towards Hamas rises -> More rockets into Israel, more rockets -> More death, more wars.

The only way is to continue the offensive, until Hamas are finished, and Israel will give the government back to PLO.

So the UN posted now a non-binding resolution condeming the recent fighting and wanting it to stop...

Non-Binding resolution with all the bloodshed and crazy happening...

I tell you what, either the UN is just this bunch of really really stupid individuals who think they're doing good, or maybe the conspiracy theorists have something and the point of this kind of crap is to get people to demand a more militant world peace keeping organization. The US abstained from the vote...gee, I wonder why. Oh, no I don't.

But yeah, I saw that when I got home from work tonight and just shook my head at the whole thing. Another UN scolding which Hamas and Israel can just totally ignore and continue blowing each other to hell. Great, that's news? That's supposed to reaffirm our faith? Fuuuuuck...

At 1/9/09 03:25 AM, zoolrule wrote: Now in this attack, for the first time, you can here voice from inside Gaza against Hamas, people are actually blaming Hamas. So i think, of course people would obviously hate Israel more, but since they saw how much of civilian life Hamas are willing to sacrifice, just to maintain their power, the support for Hamas will decrease.

And you think that once Hamas is gone, all those people that obviously now hate Israel's guts won't become terrorists? At the very very best all Israel can do is kill every single armed Hamas militant. It's impossible to destroy the ideals of Hamas with bombs. People might no longer support Hamas because of their conduct, but with the obviously increased hate against Israel, I think many will find the ideal of striking back at the hated Israel a lot more appealing than before this conflict began.

We're talking a lot of people with a lot of hate against Israel, that have lost everything they held dear. That's not exactly a good climate to build a lasting peace on.

That's why the attack is actually effective as well (Besides destroying Hamas). Unless, of course, the world pressure would be so tight that Israel will have to stop the attack -> Hamas declaring victory -> Hamas doing the only thing they are good at except using human shields: Propaganda -> Support towards Hamas rises -> More rockets into Israel, more rockets -> More death, more wars.

Destroying Hamas is not possible. You can destroy all armed militants, you can destroy all current leaders, but you can't destroy their ideals or their supporters. So even if Israel continues bombing Gaza until only a handful of people and 3 bricks standing upright are left, there will still be support for a terrorist organization, Hamas or another one, and you'll get more rockets, death and wars.

The only way is to continue the offensive, until Hamas are finished, and Israel will give the government back to PLO.

Continuing the offensive really won't help. The only thing it will accomplish is more bloodshed, more loss of civilian life, more hardship for the civilians in Gaza.

I suspect that some see this assault more as a way of taking revenge on Hamas rather than working towards peace. For example adrshepard wrote :

So you think it's perfectly okay for Hamas to get away with attacking Israeland then hiding behind civilians? You think it's perfectly acceptable to give in to the massive ignorance that you say would lead people to blame Israel for all the suffering?
Hamas is an organization of malevolent scumbags. It has to pay for what it has done. The fact that it employs civilian shields adds only more reason for it to be destroyed at all costs, not less.

And yeah the UN is a joke. What do you expect when so many countries with different political interests have to come to a consensus. Unfortunately political interests are apparently more important than stopping human suffering. I doubt armed peacekeepers would do much good in this conflict anyway.

It's really not act of revenge.

It's act of Israel protecting it's citizens, who have been living in shelters for 8 years with no Israeli response, just because it would harm innocent civilians.
It's an act of stopping the weapons smuggling because Hamas were getting too powerful, if this attack was done 1 year ago Hamas were finished by now.

There are no peace talking with an organization denying Israel's right to exist. (And at the same time asked to be recognized by Israel?) Gaza is not part of the Palestinian authorities anymore, because of Hamas, so how can there be peace? Israel will just bringing Mahmoud Abbas back to control.

Regardless of the tactics that they use, right now Hamas runs Palestine. Israel will never be able to extract Hamas through force. It's like with the IRA peace process. Everyone's well aware of the crimes committed by Hamas, but Israel has to negotiate with these people and come to terms. This should involve lifting the blockade by the way, instead of walling them up like animals. Israel, as the democratic nation, has the responsibility to make the first move to peace. While they refuse to talk to Hamas, more people will die in both countries and Hamas will only gain more support. In times of hardship, people turn to the extremists is a lesson from history relevant here.

At 1/9/09 06:48 AM, Britkid wrote: Regardless of the tactics that they use, right now Hamas runs Palestine.

Hamas runs Gaza.

:Israel will never be able to extract Hamas through force.
Actually it is able, only if gets the green light, the IDF can bring down Hamas in few days.

It's like with the IRA peace process.

We already discussed it and saw that the situation is completely different.

Everyone's well aware of the crimes committed by Hamas, but Israel has to negotiate with these people and come to terms.

These people stand for the destruction of Israel, and for killing all of the Jews. That's what the group was made for, and that's their goal. There are not negotiations with terrorists.

This should involve lifting the blockade by the way, instead of walling them up like animals

Israel have no problem in lifting the blockade (Which is backed by the EU and UN by the way).
Israel just insist that if they lift the blockade, they will be able to check and verify the transports.
Hamas don't agree, because that way they can't smuggle weapon, lifting the blockade to them means unsupervised borders.

Israel, as the democratic nation, has the responsibility to make the first move to peace.

They have actually. Oslo accords, camp david, and in 2005 the disengagement plan, which brought us to that exact fucked up situation. That what happens when you make a move for peace with them.

While they refuse to talk to Hamas, more people will die in both countries and Hamas will only gain more support. In times of hardship, people turn to the extremists is a lesson from history relevant here.

I doubt anyone will support Hamas after that, unless Israel stops the attacks. (And i said it few times already, if history have showed us something, is NO to talk with the, and do attack them, because that worked actually every single time (Peace with Egypt, peace with Jordan - both of them came after Israel defeated them)

At 1/9/09 04:02 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: So the UN posted now a non-binding resolution condeming the recent fighting and wanting it to stop...

Non-Binding resolution with all the bloodshed and crazy happening...

I was shocked to shit hear the USA abstained from this vote. 99.9% of the time they would veto such a resolution. This is monumental, and way to go USA.

Here is a interesting article asking why are we even allies with Israel

Nolan Chart

My personal opinion on the whole Israel/Palestine issue;

1. Stay out of it
2. Cut all aid to both sides (and every other country for that matter)

At 1/9/09 03:15 AM, Togukawa wrote: I don't see how you can interpret what I said that way.

Israel has already played its hand and is trying to stop Hamas. Any negotiations that entail simultaneous concessions on both sides will be a victory for Hamas. It may agree to stop the rocket attacks, but in return the Israelis would probably lift the blockade, which is partly what Hamas used to justify the rocket attacks in the first place. Hamas is the armed aggressor in this conflict and so must be punished in some way for a truce to be acceptable to Israel. I think the proposed plan of a peacekeeping force that would prevent Hamas rearmament and weapon smuggling is acceptable, and if it proves effective after several months then the Israelis could end the blockade.

At 1/9/09 03:15 AM, Togukawa wrote: Put yourself in the place of generic Palestinian A. Imagine your entire family was among the civilian deaths in the UN school, and your house and everything you have is destroyed. What do you think is your most likely train of thought..."Fucking Israel is opressing us again, bombing the shit out of us, they are evil and just want to cause us grief! Man I am so gonna strike back and shoot some rockets at them!"

It does pose an intractable problem but you have to ask if this consequence is worth destroying Hamas' attack capability. I don't doubt that the person you describe could become a militant, but I would imagine that while other Palestinians would be sympathetic to his cause, they wouldn't take up arms themselves. After all, they still have their families and fighting as guerillas against Israel has lots of risk.
However, this doesn't have to become a downward spiral of provocation. There will come a time when Palestinian pride and outrage (or that of any people) will not be enough to overcome the fatigue of prolonged suffering. If the blockade is working as effectively as aid agencies claim, then the Israeli campaign can only have made daily life worse for the average Palestinian. If this goes on long enough, the passion that sustains jihadists like the guy you mention will fade, people will realize the hopelessness of continued aggression, and not support militant groups like Hamas in the future.

That is why it is so important that Israel must be the clear winner and Hamas the clear loser. If there is even the slightest consequence that Hamas can claim victory from, not only will its aggressive policies be seen as legitimate, but the entire notion that angry, militant martyrs can defeat major powers so long as the population holds strong will be reinforced. Only more violence can come from that.

Israel attacks a house it moved civilians into itself less than 24 hours previously, many dead (30+ mostly women and children).

Israel is already getting hinted that it may be committing war crimes, the story headline above is an example.

Israel moves civilians into a compound then shells it

I am ignoring certain lying posters here :)

At 1/9/09 06:57 PM, Sarai wrote: Israel moves civilians into a compound then shells it

;;;;;
Very serious allegations.
But I read your link to the BBC story & see where it says in that article, that the Israelis have looked into this supposed incident & they are ,QUOTE> unfounded.

So there you go . Just more B.S. from the Hamas spin doctor team .
They sure can make up great stories 'eh.

I am ignoring certain lying posters here :)

I've taken off my rose colored glasses, when I look at so called News from the terrorists sympathizers.

At 1/9/09 07:19 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/9/09 06:57 PM, Sarai wrote: Israel moves civilians into a compound then shells it

;;;;;
Very serious allegations.

Backed by witness accounts. Like the 13 year old boy found alive. But he must be a Hamas member right, like why else would he blame the Jews?

But I read your link to the BBC story & see where it says in that article, that the Israelis have looked into this supposed incident & they are ,QUOTE> unfounded.

Wow, odd. Israel denying any wrong doing? That's not like them is it?

So there you go . Just more B.S. from the Hamas spin doctor team .

Is it also bullshit that the IDF blocked rescue workers from getting to the Zeitoun region for 4 days?

WAAAAH I don't like Israel because they are killing innocent people WAAAAAH

You fucking idiots Israel has every right to blow the shit out of Gaza, Iran or any such threat. They (Hamas/Iran) have clearly stated they want to destroy Israel and due to this (and attacks launched by Hamas ON INNOCENTS) they have retaliated.

Israel is not the aggressive party, they merely want to have a peaceful state, if Hamas is stupid enough to attack Israel when all they have is 2 dollar shop rockets they shouldn't go crying to the UN when Israel retaliates with real weaponry.

In other words, if you attack someone with a knife and they then blow your ass away with an AK it's your own fucking fault.

Given what Israel has put up with I would be perfectly happy if they just got every plane and bomb they owned and just carpet bombed every hostile area till not even a single cockroach was left.

At 1/10/09 06:26 AM, hippyhunter5 wrote: WAAAAH I don't like Israel because they are killing innocent people WAAAAAH

Way to lose anb argument in your opening gamit...

You fucking idiots Israel has every right to blow the shit out of Gaza, Iran or any such threat. They (Hamas/Iran) have clearly stated they want to destroy Israel and due to this (and attacks launched by Hamas ON INNOCENTS) they have retaliated.

No, they do not have the "right", for the simple reason that if every nation acted on this "right" at various points in history, the planet would be a mass of bomb craters. Because the IRA wanted Brits out of Ireland dead or alive, is that reason enough to bomb the crap out of Dublin on a daily basis?

Israel is not the aggressive party, they merely want to have a peaceful state, if Hamas is stupid enough to attack Israel when all they have is 2 dollar shop rockets they shouldn't go crying to the UN when Israel retaliates with real weaponry.

Next up: why Israel sholdn't complain when Hamas launch rockets at them for decades of landgrabbing far beyond the borders set for the Israeli state in 1948, or leaving the Palestinians to live in what is, in effect, a concentration camp.

In other words, if you attack someone with a knife and they then blow your ass away with an AK it's your own fucking fault.

How about a person with an AK47 marches in, takes half your residence and stands in the corner with the AK47 pointed at you despite having what they came for, won't you take an opportunity to say you won't be pushed around forever?

Given what Israel has put up with I would be perfectly happy if they just got every plane and bomb they owned and just carpet bombed every hostile area till not even a single cockroach was left.

Yes, they've put up with acting with impunity in Gaza and the West Bank for 60 years. It's really hard for them when the West makes excuses for them, too.

What's the point of this discussion anyway? It takes you exactly one page to forget the arguments, you already chose your side, so nothing really matters to you.

At 1/10/09 09:29 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: No, they do not have the "right", for the simple reason that if every nation acted on this "right" at various points in history, the planet would be a mass of bomb craters. Because the IRA wanted Brits out of Ireland dead or alive, is that reason enough to bomb the crap out of Dublin on a daily basis?

Exactly, and Israel had this right for like 20 years and we still didn't do anything about it.
A "daily basis", only shows how ignorant you are.
We were getting bombed on a daily basis, this attack is only two weeks long, it's a response, a self defense. It's not bombing for the sake of bombing, it's trying to achieve peace for our citizens already.
Just because you are aware of the conflict every time it appears in the media, doesn't mean it's happening all the time

Next up: why Israel sholdn't complain when Hamas launch rockets at them for decades of landgrabbing far beyond the borders set for the Israeli state in 1948, or leaving the Palestinians to live in what is, in effect, a concentration camp.

Short memory is short, i can actually copy paste my last message that you had no answers to, and they'll still be relevant.
I think you forgot what happened in 1948, when the UN split the land for two, and the Arabs refused it, saying there would be no Jewish state, and declared a total war together against Israel, with the Palestinians. The war has no influence does it? What about Hebron massacre where Palestinians killed dozens of Jews 1920. They were killing Jews all along.
What about the fact that the Arabs put them in these "Concentration camps" (You are disgusting fucker). "Land grabbing", if you haven't noticed, every time we "grabbed" land, we brought it back for peace. Only Palestinians don't want peace, and never did. They want us dead. And you support it. So fuck off

How about a person with an AK47 marches in, takes half your residence and stands in the corner with the AK47 pointed at you despite having what they came for, won't you take an opportunity to say you won't be pushed around forever?

How about a pony driving in a wheelchair? That's just as relevant.

Yes, they've put up with acting with impunity in Gaza and the West Bank for 60 years. It's really hard for them when the West makes excuses for them, too.

The west brought us to this exact situation. We tried peace with them, they failed and missed the opportunity for the who knows what time.
Sometimes, after few years of repression, you just gotta fight back. Pfft, daily basis. This attack would end up in few days anyway, hopefully we will get our goals of keeping our citizens SAFE, unlike Hamas, who wants as many dead Palestinians as possible.

At 1/10/09 06:26 AM, hippyhunter5 wrote: WAAAAH I don't like Israel because they are killing innocent people WAAAAAH

;
You gotta love how they whine & bitch about it.

You fucking idiots Israel has every right to blow the shit out of Gaza, Iran or any such threat.

;;;;;
Ditto

if you attack someone with a knife and they then blow your ass away with an AK it's your own fucking fault.

;;;;;;
You won't get any argument from me about this point.

Given what Israel has put up with I would be perfectly happy if they just got every plane and bomb they owned and just carpet bombed every hostile area till not even a single cockroach was left.

;;;;;;;;;;
I like the way this guy thinks... Although I don't personally have a problem with the flora & fauna over there....just kill the people :)

At 1/10/09 12:16 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/10/09 06:26 AM, hippyhunter5 wrote: if you attack someone with a knife and they then blow your ass away with an AK it's your own fucking fault.

;;;;;;
You won't get any argument from me about this point.

Fuck yeah! And if they happen to accidentally shoot up a few dozen bystanders while they're at it, that's your fucking fault too!

Given what Israel has put up with I would be perfectly happy if they just got every plane and bomb they owned and just carpet bombed every hostile area till not even a single cockroach was left.

;;;;;;;;;;
I like the way this guy thinks... Although I don't personally have a problem with the flora & fauna over there....just kill the people :)

Pff carpet bombing is so inefficient. Just build the wall all the way around and flood the place.

At 1/10/09 12:25 PM, Togukawa wrote: Just build the wall all the way around and flood the place.

;;;;;;
Dude.........biblical !

At 1/10/09 10:02 AM, Doonie wrote: Hebron massacre where Palestinians killed dozens of Jews 1920. They were killing Jews all along. What about the fact that the Arabs put them in these "Concentration camps" (You are disgusting fucker). "Land grabbing", if you haven't noticed, every time we "grabbed" land, we brought it back for peace. Only Palestinians don't want peace, and never did. They want us dead. And you support it. So fuck off

Doonie, get out of my thread if you're just going to insult people. If the Vatican can liken what is happening in Gaza to a concentration camp posters in this thread are allowed to mention it or believe it without harrassment by your purile language and threats.

What I believe in may be wrong, what I believe in my be different to other people's views, but I sure as hell have the right to express it. So kindly either play along with the RULES, or stop posting your hateful comments. I can deal with your lies and mis-truths about the "Perfect Israel", so feel free to keeping posting them, haha.

At 1/10/09 10:02 AM, Doonie wrote: What's the point of this discussion anyway? It takes you exactly one page to forget the arguments, you already chose your side, so nothing really matters to you.

Obviously you haven't chosen your side, you haven't forgotten any arguments...

Careful who you want to tar with that brush, Doonie - it paints both ways...

At 1/10/09 09:29 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: No, they do not have the "right", for the simple reason that if every nation acted on this "right" at various points in history, the planet would be a mass of bomb craters. Because the IRA wanted Brits out of Ireland dead or alive, is that reason enough to bomb the crap out of Dublin on a daily basis?

Exactly, and Israel had this right for like 20 years and we still didn't do anything about it.
A "daily basis", only shows how ignorant you are.
We were getting bombed on a daily basis, this attack is only two weeks long, it's a response, a self defense. It's not bombing for the sake of bombing, it's trying to achieve peace for our citizens already.
Just because you are aware of the conflict every time it appears in the media, doesn't mean it's happening all the time

Hang on, are you telling me at no point in the last 20 years have the Israelis demonstrated aggression towards the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, or whoever else they have elected to be the devils in the region?

It's not a self defence when it's indiscriminate. If Hamas can keep their rocket attacks focused on military targets, why is it the Israelis seem incapable of being as selective, given their superior firepower and military technology? Heck, the Israeli's are even managing to shell their own troops, that's how indiscriminate they are (here). It's also pretty damn indiscriminate when refugee centres are being targetted (here)

It's bombing for the sake of flexing Israeli muscle in Gaza, that's what it is - just like driving tanks through Palestinian settlments (and any houses that happened to be in their path) a decade ago was.

It's happening frequently enough, and often isn't reported in the media - it's when there's a full-blown operation that people will take notice of it, be it Gaza now, Lebanon a couple of years back, or whatever.

Next up: why Israel sholdn't complain when Hamas launch rockets at them for decades of landgrabbing far beyond the borders set for the Israeli state in 1948, or leaving the Palestinians to live in what is, in effect, a concentration camp.

Short memory is short, i can actually copy paste my last message that you had no answers to, and they'll still be relevant.
I think you forgot what happened in 1948, when the UN split the land for two, and the Arabs refused it, saying there would be no Jewish state, and declared a total war together against Israel, with the Palestinians. The war has no influence does it? What about Hebron massacre where Palestinians killed dozens of Jews 1920. They were killing Jews all along.
What about the fact that the Arabs put them in these "Concentration camps" (You are disgusting fucker). "Land grabbing", if you haven't noticed, every time we "grabbed" land, we brought it back for peace. Only Palestinians don't want peace, and never did. They want us dead. And you support it. So fuck off

Typical rhetoric: "What about Year X?" Well, what about 1947, when the land was that of the Palestinians? Are you saying they don't have right to land that was theirs for centuries, because of a quick swish of a pen in 1948?

And what makes me a "disgusting fucker"for stating that the Palestinians are in a virtual concentration camp of Israeli design? READ. And if you want to BS your way through with the usual "biased source", try here

Gazans are not allowed to pass through the Erez frontier - by land, air, or sea - and are kept inside by fences, gates - and machine gun posts. What dopes this sound more like, a holiday camp or a concentration camp? Oh, and you may do well to learn the difference between a concentration camp and an extermanation camp, as I detected a hint of that through your faux indignation.

In 1948, the Israeli military drove people out to expand their borders by force - so, no, fuck you if you don't call that a landgrab. And it's hardly peaceful to hand it back, then build settlements on it anyway - that's the diplomatic version of rubbing their noses in it.

How about a person with an AK47 marches in, takes half your residence and stands in the corner with the AK47 pointed at you despite having what they came for, won't you take an opportunity to say you won't be pushed around forever?

How about a pony driving in a wheelchair? That's just as relevant.

No, somebody running and ducking for cover when a bombshell is headed their way is relevant - that's the image I have right now, of you ducking the question with the poise of somebody who has no answer.

Yes, they've put up with acting with impunity in Gaza and the West Bank for 60 years. It's really hard for them when the West makes excuses for them, too.

The west brought us to this exact situation. We tried peace with them, they failed and missed the opportunity for the who knows what time.
Sometimes, after few years of repression, you just gotta fight back. Pfft, daily basis. This attack would end up in few days anyway, hopefully we will get our goals of keeping our citizens SAFE, unlike Hamas, who wants as many dead Palestinians as possible.

Funny, it seems that Israel are happy to kill Palestinian civilians, and they seem remarkably efficient at it. But, hey, I'm only saying that because it's in the media.

When the hell have Israel ever been repressed by Hamas? It's pretty hard to be repressed when your country receives aid that includes guns and tanks - things that don't appear in aid packages to any other country.

The only repression I'm seeing here is you repressing any outside knowledge that flicks your theories off the table like a crumb - knowledge like Israel being all too happy to be the bullies of the Middle East more than Iran ever could, because Iran have their every move monitored, whilst Israel can continue to use unchecked aggression against whoever they please.

Do you know how Israel can keep their citizens safe? By not creating a situation that would encroach on their safety in the first place. A situation liek, for the sake of argument, constantly flouting international rules & regulations if and when they feel free.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: It's not a self defence when it's indiscriminate. If Hamas can keep their rocket attacks focused on military targets, why is it the Israelis seem incapable of being as selective, given their superior firepower and military technology?

You are wildly misinformed. Hamas is firing simple, portable, unguided rockets. There is no targeting and they are completely indiscrimate. Israel's weapons are precise against static targets, which is why the air strikes only inflicted about 25-40% civilian casualties. Tank shells and mortars are less accurate and fired in the heat of battle. Mistakes happen, and armies try to avoid it. Hamas' positioning of militants and rocket sites are not making things easier for the IDF, and that is intentional on their part.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: It's bombing for the sake of flexing Israeli muscle in Gaza, that's what it is - just like driving tanks through Palestinian settlments (and any houses that happened to be in their path) a decade ago was.

That is because the houses were often booby-trapped.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Typical rhetoric: "What about Year X?" Well, what about 1947, when the land was that of the Palestinians? Are you saying they don't have right to land that was theirs for centuries, because of a quick swish of a pen in 1948?

No, the quick devastation of the Arab armies in 1948 and in the 70's by the Israelis deprives them of that right. The land belongs to the Israelis now. If you can't accept that, then you can move back to where ever the hell your Germanic ancestors came from before they swept west into the Roman Empire.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Gazans are not allowed to pass through the Erez frontier - by land, air, or sea - and are kept inside by fences, gates - and machine gun posts. What dopes this sound more like, a holiday camp or a concentration camp? Oh, and you may do well to learn the difference between a concentration camp and an extermanation camp, as I detected a hint of that through your faux indignation.

A basic tenet of national sovereignty is the right to secure territorial boundaries. The outposts are intended to keep Gazans out of Israel, which is perfectly legitimate. The Gazans have no natural right to enter Israel.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: In 1948, the Israeli military drove people out to expand their borders by force - so, no, fuck you if you don't call that a landgrab. And it's hardly peaceful to hand it back, then build settlements on it anyway - that's the diplomatic version of rubbing their noses in it.

Considering the Israelis were vastly outnumbered by the Palestinians, who started the violence in the first place after the UN declaration, it is not unreasonable that Israel would seek more territory and defensible borders. The victory over the Arab armies from Syria, Egypt, and others certainly gave them reason to fear future attack.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: The only repression I'm seeing here is you repressing any outside knowledge that flicks your theories off the table like a crumb - knowledge like Israel being all too happy to be the bullies of the Middle East more than Iran ever could, because Iran have their every move monitored, whilst Israel can continue to use unchecked aggression against whoever they please.

By aggression you are referring to the 1948 war and the one in the 70s. On both occasions Israel was attacked first. I would ask that you identify Israeli acts of aggression after the Yom Kippur War.

At 1/10/09 12:50 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Do you know how Israel can keep their citizens safe? By not creating a situation that would encroach on their safety in the first place. A situation liek, for the sake of argument, constantly flouting international rules & regulations if and when they feel free.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. Hamas is far more in violation of international rules and conventions than Israel arguably ever could be.

At 1/9/09 06:57 PM, Sarai wrote:

I am ignoring certain lying posters here :)

No, you are ignoring the fact that you cannot rebut their arguments. It should be easy if they are lying. Simply find a reliable or authoritative source that contradicts them.

I still wonder why Israel bombs everyone and everything in Gaza to get rid of the rocketlaunching sites.
Wouldn't it be safer to locate, march in and arrest every 'terrorist', without causing so much death and destruction.

Eg, they blow up a Hamas politician and his entire family and they think it's justified because Hamas are terrorists. That's no reason to blow up everyone and everything around them.

I predict that sooner or later they'll nuke Gaza and justify it because of the terrorists present.
Or they'll justify a genocide against Pallestinians because they are potential terrorists.

We're stuck at a crossroads on whether we should reproach Israel or Hamas. Personally, I'd reproach Hamas because of their disregard for the civilians in Gaza. But some of us believe that Israel is to blame.

At 1/10/09 02:14 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: Wouldn't it be safer to locate, march in and arrest every 'terrorist'

You be the guy to strap cuffs on the guy wrapped with C4.

This should be interesting for folks here

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-
w&feature=channel_page

At 1/9/09 07:53 AM, bcdemon wrote: I was shocked to shit hear the USA abstained from this vote. 99.9% of the time they would veto such a resolution. This is monumental, and way to go USA.

I didn't take that to mean we were somehow trying to see both sides of the issue. I took it to mean we're still firmly in the Israeli corner, but we just didn't want to publicize it or look even more like the nation of "we know fucking well better then anybody else" at the present moment.

At 1/10/09 10:02 AM, Doonie wrote: What's the point of this discussion anyway? It takes you exactly one page to forget the arguments, you already chose your side, so nothing really matters to you.

Yet you keep arguing. Also, I see you resort to insults again, you are going to eat a ban, and don't even think about getting some alts to get around it. I'm already watching you and the other cluster of low-level pro-Israel accounts hanging around this thread since you all type the same way. Highly suspicious.

For starters, cut off all and any financial and military trade to Israel and restore financial aid to Gaza and West Bank.
Then bomb the shit out of Israeli airport runways, seaports, roads, oil refineries, military targets and settlements while dropping food, medicine and ammo into Gaza and WB.
Finally impose a blockade around Israel and occupy the West Bank and Gaza borders as well as certain parts of Israel.

Israel should lose the whole south and its northern territory, have its capital become Tel Aviv and the Golan Hights and south Lebanon returned. Jerusalem should become an open city protected by high walls.

Oh, and Israel should have its military rationed, and slashed down to a third of its original power in money, weapons and manpower.