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At 1/4/09 09:17 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: I specifcally said in my post that I felt that the state should continue to exist as their are now generations of people who have known no other life apart from that in Israel and that the land should be considered their's. I might not have worded it wonderfully but it is there in the 2nd paragraph.

Ah, ok, good man.

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: "Human Shields", God where did you learn this from, yes I'm sure this has happened in a few situations. But the actual FACT of the matter is people LIVE there, lots of people LIVE there. They are not human shields. A human shield is someone who is FORCED into the line of fire. Somewhat like what Saddam Hussein did in the first Gulf War when he put people on Bridges with guns pointed at them so that they could not escape and America could not bomb.

So, again I ask you, Hamas has no choice but to store weapons in mosques and hospitals? It has no choice but to install rocket sites in residential areas? That seems to be what you're implying, but I don't see how you could possibly know that.

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: "Properganda War; Trusting what we See"

Read it, the point is moot. Even if the story about oxygen cylinders is to be believed, it's hard to paint this as typical of most Israeli strikes. Really, how many people have a whole slew of oxygen tanks and load them onto pickup trucks? Given the fact that they look like rockets and the regional affinity for using pickups as "technicals", this would simply seem to be an unfortunate mistake, if you believe it. In time, I'm sure someone will be able to derive measurements of the tanks/rockets from the images, maybe look at the blast pattern, and be able to determine what those tubes were.

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: In addition with the Israeli army refusing to comply with their own Surpreme Court ruling to let in foreign journalists, it's clear to see they don't want the world seeing the atrocities being committed by their forces. I'm *so* sure that Tank Shells and Artillery are *really* accurate... Lets all shoot shells into Residential areas!

Do you honestly believe that Israel would gain more international support by letting in these journalists (which are only allowed, by the court ruling, in small numbers when international aid arrives)? Most of Europe and the Middle East hates Israel anyway. I see no reason why Israel should shoot itself in the foot by allowing foreign propagandists to do their work. In any case, the Israeli actions so far speak for themselves. Only a 4th or 5th of all Palestinian fatalities have been civilian, and the Palestinians themselves have confirmed that the IDF often calls people 15 minutes before a strike so they can evacuate.
BTW, there's only one report so far of civilian casualties being caused by a tank shell, which undoubtedly resulted when someone started shooting at the IDF out of the house, and as far as I know all the offshore artillery has been directed at lightly-populated areas or at combat routes in order to destroy tunnels and mines in the areas.

At 1/3/09 03:13 PM, zoolrule wrote:

At 1/3/09 03:01 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Simple: it's classic terror tactics to target civilians. From the Blitz, to Shock & Awe, to the Lebanon skirmishes of a couple of years ago, the aim is smash the morale of the citizens and civillians of the place with which you are warring/bullying.

50 innocent civilians out of 400 casualties, in one of the most populated areas in the world seems like targeting civilians to you? Tell me that truth now you little hypocrite.

Excuse me, but where in the name of fuck do you get off?

Fuck your argument, where is the evidence to call me a "hypocrite" coming from, for one? I note Israel's continued use of terror tactics, and you (once more) go for the bullshit hostility route.

The IDF is the most humane army in the world.

They are fucking phoning the civilians before they bomb they bomb hamas structures.

You're aware that the Provo IRA also phoned to allow civilians to leave, before blowing up whatever? The target was blown up, and those who were there could watch it burn. So, were the Provo IRA the mostr humane terrorist group in the world, or just knew that the shock aspect of Shock & Awe is remarkably efficient at achieving the aim?

98% of the attacks hit Hamas structures.

But you just keep on going with that disgusting biased approach.

Wow, that is the funniest thing I've read all day, Mr. Sweetness and Light. The onmly thing disgusting is the attitude of the pro-Israeli posters - outwardly hostile to any criticism of Israel's tactics, no matter how valid.

"Classic terror", these attacks only make them hate Israel more. It contributes nothing.
The only reasons for the attack are to stop the Hamas rockets into Israeli cities.

They use terror tactics, no two ways about it.
And what contributes nothing is bullshit non-arguments that sound almost exactly like yours.

By the way, one Israeli Palestinians died from the Hamas rockets.

Didn't you say 50 civilians died from Israeli rockets?
So, one Palestinian means Hamas are, to use your own argument, more humane - or less indiscriminate in their firing patterns.

No one of you came to talk against the Palestinians who are shooting rockets into Israel for 8 years already.

Because they aren't currently driving tanks deep into Israel right now, for a start. Oh, and the West isn't making excuses for Palestine, nor looking the other way.

Israel is not targeting civilians. Israel does not want to kill civilians, you are so frustrating and i'm almost crying right now.

Well fucking cry then, if this is the kind of crap you proliferate.

At 1/3/09 03:46 PM, Snicp wrote:
you know if Israel was fighting because it was racist they could just erase gaza from the earth in one moment but the fact that all they aiming is the hamas members and the fact that its not that simple because hamas using their civilians as human shields as the guy said

Did I say, at any point, that Israel was racist? No - cut the shit, wrap it in a tortilla, and sell it at Taco Bell.

I stated that Israel was responsible for landgrabs throughout the region, along with their constant provocation and incitement. How dare you pull that kind of crap.

You know, the pair of you would be perfect fits in the Israeli military: provocation and outward hostility to those who you see as being "wrong", yet no interest in showing how you could possibly be "right".

At 1/4/09 12:10 PM, adrshepard wrote: So, again I ask you, Hamas has no choice but to store weapons in mosques and hospitals? It has no choice but to install rocket sites in residential areas? That seems to be what you're implying, but I don't see how you could possibly know that.

So Israel has no choice but to bomb mosques and hospitals? It has no choice but to bomb residential areas? After all, if there are weapons stored there, they just HAVE to bomb it. Even more so now that there's a ground assault going on.

At least after this shock and awe campaign civilian support for hamas will plummet and Israel will be safe once and for all. That's what history teaches us, am I right?!

At 1/4/09 02:01 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: You're aware that the Provo IRA also phoned to allow civilians to leave, before blowing up whatever?

They NEVER, EVER, EVER AND EVER told where they gonna bomb seems like some Arabic propaganda washed your brains out

:They use terror tactics, no two ways about it.
And what contributes nothing is bullshit non-arguments that sound almost exactly like yours.

terror tactics? defending your country from terror acts that causing your civilians to live in fear
you calling terror tactics? now i see where you driving

Did I say, at any point, that Israel was racist? No - cut the shit, wrap it in a tortilla, and sell it at Taco Bell.

my foult by quoting you at the wrong place "Conspiracy3" said "I don't think they really have anything to earn, I think their motives are just simply out of racism and intolerance to Muslims." so what i said wasnt addresed to you

At 1/4/09 02:16 PM, Togukawa wrote: So Israel has no choice but to bomb mosques and hospitals? It has no choice but to bomb residential areas? After all, if there are weapons stored there, they just HAVE to bomb it. Even more so now that there's a ground assault going on.
At least after this shock and awe campaign civilian support for hamas will plummet and Israel will be safe once and for all. That's what history teaches us, am I right?!

When your civilians are getting rockets shot at for 8 years, and are living in the shelters for 3 years, and all of that because you tried to start a peace process, no there's no other choice.

We gave them peace ready on a silver plate so many times, and every time, it came as a backslash right at us. Oslo agreements, Camp david, and the lastest, the one sided disegagement plan in 2005 which was seriously an amazing step towards peace. But of course, instead the Palestinians, just like many of the right wing Israelis claimed ( Your exact argument! They said the Palestinians faild us once, and they will fail us again, and they were right), used it to make gaza into a terror center against Israel. Which is resulted in this Israeli offensive.
If there is one thing history have taught us, this offensive will give the Israeli citizens time of quiet from the Palestinians rockets shot into the Israeli cities.
So no, since Hamas are hiding these very rockets in mosques, schools, and houses, Israel have nothing else to do but this. Should i remind you that Hamas's official goal is to destroy Israel?

So if history HAVE really taught us something, is not to try to talk sense with the Palestinians. But we still, like naive fucks, we try to talk to them every fucking time, and get screwd every fucking time even more.

The Provisional IRA *did* often phone before they bombed except in the case of attacks on the English mainland where warnings were often cryptic / quite late. Terrorists groups around the world know the power of bomb threats / 'target threats' into causing panic in a civilian population who are powerless to stop the aforementioned bomb. Another group known to 'warn' included Eta (Spain) at different times during its terror campaign.

Right now as Israeli tanks plough trough the Strip killing civilians and militants alike it's both shocking and a reflection of how bias the United States is that this killing is allowed to go on unabated. In the dying days of the Bush regime it is an indication once more of the failed policies of the 'Roadmap' and the failed Israeli and Palestinian promises to adhere to it. As noted in the opening posts and others throughout this thread, the major failures have been attributed to Isreal, not least the:

i) Continued settlement building / expanstion in occupied territories (in violation of International Law)
ii) Establishement of the Ghettos through concrete walls, barriers and checkpoints that has turned Gaza (and the West Bank) into the New Berlin.
iii) Continued violations of basic Geneva Convention principles such as 'Collective Punishment' (i.e halting fuel supplies, preventing enough medical aid getting through, restricting the movements of ambulances and so forth.
iv) I could go on... (economic blockades, no control over sea / air / shelling of residential areas...)

Let it be clear that Hamas has also failed to live up to many obligations, (however as noted Hamas did not campaign on an anti-Israel platform and in the elections although sadly not recognising Israel also toned down mentions of 'destruction' Some people argue that Israel was 'provoked', well both sides have equal ability to claim that (see above i - iv).

Since neither side will back down, but since the Israeli side is feted to be a 'Country' and a 'Democracy', one hopes that basic fundemental common sense will prevail, Israel has both the means and ability to defend itself to a reasonable level, it also has the means to stop points i-iv above if it choses. The fact that it does not is the regions clearest provocation and gives fuel to a global hate for the Israeli state among many countries of the world. In a time when we should be looking to countries such as Malaysia to fight terrorism instead they are having mass rallies against the percieved crusade by Israel against Muslims... If Israel only could give positive PR by abiding by its own supreme court (ruled the barrier was illegal) then these steps would actually make a difference to global public opinion and perhaps would turn Hamas into the full on Terrorists they are, rather than as many see 'Freedom Fighters' or just 'Militants'.

Sadly, with Israel's track history... one thinks that these selfish landgrabs and discrimination against Arabs (The West Bank Farm Issue anyone?) will continue :/ I for one would hope it would not, but until Israel gets the message that its actions are unacceptable for a modern country I will be quite happy putting myself in the demonostrations (just like two years ago) against it, state sponsored terrorism is ugly... It doesn't have to be flying planes into twin towers... economic or political means can easily qualify.

*sigh*

See you at the London marches.

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: A human shield is someone who is FORCED into the line of fire.

not necessarily; "Human shield is a military and political term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets."

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: See you at the London marches.

;;;;;
If there is any justice in this world...hopefully someone launches a rocket over you/ into the crowd while your marching.
It just might WAKE YOU THE FUCK UP, to what the average Israeli on the street has been going through every day since last years "supposed" cease fire.
*sigh* but there is no chance any of you assholes will get a glimpse of reality.

At 1/4/09 04:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: See you at the London marches.

;;;;;
If there is any justice in this world...hopefully someone launches a rocket over you/ into the crowd while your marching.
It just might WAKE YOU THE FUCK UP, to what the average Israeli on the street has been going through every day since last years "supposed" cease fire.
*sigh* but there is no chance any of you assholes will get a glimpse of reality.

Thank you for the death wish dear, how nice to issue death threats above the internet.

Anyway, perhaps all 10% of the march will be in Range :) "The average Israeli it would seem (90%) is not exposed to rocket fire. Oh wait, did I hear that 100% of Palestinian's are exposed to F15 Jet Fighters? Wow....

Enjoy your life of preaching hate you silly Isreali supporter, people like you are no better than the forces that were destroyed in WW2 with the fall of the Nazis, people like you wished genocide on a race using technological and military superiority and wouldn't balk at any price in human life to pay to achieve that.

People like me on the hand are willing to stand up and be counted and say what we believe is true and influence through words and marches if we can. We deplore terrorism in all forms, whether it is from a terrorist organization or from a State pursuing policies of injustice and intolerance.

Enjoy wishing death threats on others, I have nothing but a wish for a lasting peace (that I have made very clear in every post).

At 1/4/09 05:55 PM, Grammer wrote: I don't agree with D2KVirus in some respects. I don't think Israel is trying to bully civilians, and I do believe Israel doesn't want to kill civilians, as that only makes more terrorists. But this war never should've started in the first place.

;;;;;
This whole bunch of B.S. is just like two male cats fighting over a litter box. Both of them pissed off that someone else is using the same box they do...get over it.
If Hamas, was launching missels at Israelis Defence Force Bases...I would be possibly sympathetic.
But they're not, they're just firing them in the 'general' direction of populated areas.
This newest incursion to the Gaza Territory, is just going to kill more non combatants & more Israeli defense forces soldiers.
Let the game continue...I guess.

With the type of air superiority that Israel has, I don't understand why some type of AWAK style aircraft isn't in the air, picking up missel flights within seconds of their firing & having a retalitory strike take out that area.

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: The Provisional IRA *did* often phone before they bombed except in the case of attacks on the English mainland where warnings were often cryptic / quite late. Terrorists groups around the world know the power of bomb threats / 'target threats' into causing panic in a civilian population who are powerless to stop the aforementioned bomb. Another group known to 'warn' included Eta (Spain) at different times during its terror campaign.

X The IRA did not stand for destroying the United Kingdom.
X The United Kingdom did not have to deal with tens of ROCKETS shot into London every day, for 8 years.
X The IRA did not arm itself like crazy every time it discussed about peace with UK, just to break the discussion and hit the UK harder next time.
X the IRA were not brainwashed radical Islamics willing to sacrifice their life to hit innocent people, and get 72 virgins in heaven after that.

Right now as Israeli tanks plough trough the Strip killing civilians and militants alike it's both shocking

Lie. Does 90% casualties accuracy in the most populated area in the world, when Hamas is using the civilians it claims to protect as human shields is not shooting them alike. Stop being biased disgusting idiot.

:and a reflection of how bias the United States is that this killing is allowed to go on unabated. In the dying days of the Bush regime it is an indication once more of the failed policies of the 'Roadmap' and the failed Israeli and Palestinian promises to adhere to it. As noted in the opening posts and others throughout this thread, the major failures have been attributed to Isreal, not least the:

i) Continued settlement building / expanstion in occupied territories (in violation of International Law)

Look what happened when Israel cleared it's buildings just like you claimed. Hint : Today.

ii) Establishement of the Ghettos through concrete walls, barriers and checkpoints that has turned Gaza (and the West Bank) into the New Berlin.

Let me laugh.... thanks. Now let's talk about your biased lies.
When we executed it's unilateral disengagement plan in 2005, we knew exactly what's going to happen. However, biased bleeding heart hypocrites like you, claimed it will work toward peace and everything is gonna be OK.

In Gaza there never were concrete walls and barriers. And in some point, the checkpoint in Gaza caught at least 2 suicide bombers a week. Who are you judge?

But when Israel left Gaza all of this disappeared, and Israel left Gaza COMPLETELY.
Now let's see what the Palestinians did.

X Instead of choosing Fatah to work towards peace, they chose notorious Hamas to lead them.
X When Hamas took over Gaza violently (Murdering hundreds of innocent Palestinians, but no one gives a fuck when it's not Israel killing.) Instead of starting to build their country Israel left, they increased smuggling weapons in thousands, just like Israel predicted, just like people like you claimed wont happen.
X They increased their rockets launching into unbearable numbers, and still Israel did not do a thing.
X They shot rockets during the cease fire, a lot of them. Provoking Israel.
X They made Gaza into a terror fort.

iii) Continued violations of basic Geneva Convention principles such as 'Collective Punishment' (i.e halting fuel supplies, preventing enough medical aid getting through, restricting the movements of ambulances and so forth.

Collective Punishment? Are you aware of the fact that Hamas the terror organization is the Government and "Army" of Gaza? Are you aware of that?

iv) I could go on... (economic blockades, no control over sea / air / shelling of residential areas...)

It's not a different point, and again. Why would they erase the following when Gaza's government is smuggling enormous amount of weapons, and launching uncountable amount of rockets, using their own population as human shields?
Without the blockade, they would probably have had tanks right now.

Let it be clear that Hamas has also failed to live up to many obligations, (however as noted Hamas did not campaign on an anti-Israel platform and in the elections although sadly not recognising Israel also toned down mentions of 'destruction'

Oh, "Also failed".
Hamas does not need to campaign an Anti-Israel platform.
What Hama's stands for, the group, is the destruction of Israel. That's why the terror group was created, that's it's only goal. Hamas = The destruction of Israel.

Some people argue that Israel was 'provoked', well both sides have equal ability to claim that (see above i - iv).

See my replies to them. Israel was provoked.
Israel supplied them with 90 trucks with aid, just to make the Gazan government and their terrorist guerilla human shield using military branch, stop shooting rockets.
They didn't, the fault for the invasion is 100% on them.

Since neither side will back down, but since the Israeli side is feted to be a 'Country' and a 'Democracy', one hopes that basic fundemental common sense will prevail, Israel has both the means and ability to defend itself to a reasonable level.

Yes it has the ability, and that's exactly what Israel is doing right now. I honestly can't see how people can support those damn radical Muslims after what Israel have suffered with barely any response for the last 8 years.

it also has the means to stop points i-iv above if it choses. The fact that it does not is the regions clearest provocation and gives fuel to a global hate for the Israeli state among many countries of the world.

It also has to means to nuke Gaza along with all of it's enemy. Would you support that?
Are you fucking kidding me? Do you have any idea what would be the result of stopping these points? We have proved you.

We did exactly what you asked. Exactly. Word by word in Gaza. You keep ignoring it like a blind fuck.
WE HAVE FUCKING PROVED YOU IN THIS GAZA CONFLICT. WE KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN. WE ARE NOT LISTENING TO YOU FUCKING AGAIN. YOU LEAD US INTO MAYHEM SO MANY TIMES. AND YOU ARE ACTUALLY WHAT BROUGHT US INTO THIS SITUATION, YOU WITH HAMAS.

in a time when we should be looking to countries such as Malaysia to fight terrorism instead they are having mass rallies against the percieved crusade by Israel against Muslims...
If Israel only could give positive PR by abiding by its own supreme court (ruled the barrier was illegal)

Illegal but vital. It reduced the Israeli civilian casualties from 500 to 12 in one year, can you argue with numbers?

then these steps would actually make a difference to global public opinion and perhaps would turn Hamas into the full on Terrorists they are, rather than as many see 'Freedom Fighters' or just 'Militants'.

You can trust me, it wont. That's why we aren't doing it. You'll find a flaw in everything Israel is doing, you'll find the smallest insignificant thing to show your side, and ignore the unlimited amount of facts proving you wrong. Just to keep on supporting your little satanic freedom fighters.

I for one would hope it would not, but until Israel gets the message that its actions are unacceptable for a modern country I will be quite happy putting myself in the demonostrations (just like two years ago) against it,

Oslo accords, before that they fought with sticks, after they suicide bombed at our streets.

2000 Camp David summit, offered them 91% of the land. the "freedom fighters" refused. Us talking with them resulted in more armed terror, more violence, more Israeli blood spilled.

2005 - Anything to say?

state sponsored terrorism is ugly... It doesn't have to be flying planes into twin towers... economic or political means can easily qualify.

What about A TERRORIST state?

See you at the London marches.

I'll be here hoping a Qassam or Mortar will land on your head. So you'll understand how it feels to have 15 seconds to hide, for 8 years, with government doing nothing to protect you.

At 1/4/09 04:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: See you at the London marches.

;;;;;
If there is any justice in this world...hopefully someone launches a rocket over you/ into the crowd while your marching.
It just might WAKE YOU THE FUCK UP, to what the average Israeli on the street has been going through every day since last years "supposed" cease fire.
*sigh* but there is no chance any of you assholes will get a glimpse of reality.

Oh and as well as you wishing death on me when I just want to express a democratic right to protest march, I find it ironic that your death threat comes from "what the average Israeli on the street has been going through". I won't make light of rockets, they're wrong (as I've said in every post), however why don't the 'average Israeli' live through;

I) No running water (or clean)
ii) Very little electricity
iii) No open green spaces
iv) Lack of food and medical supplies
v) 75% (or so) jobless rate due to the Israeli economic blockade
vi) Unable to travel freely without fear of checkpoints / or just the massive delays here
vii) need I go on... (lack of education.... no libraries... limited cell phone / communication... etc)

It's good to know how much you high school dropouts seem to support Palestine. Maybe you should try picking up a book rather than gathering your information from biased news sources, and you'll find out what's really going on. First of all, stop calling these people fucking Palestinians, it's a made up phrase. It's something the soviets convinced them to call themselves, in order to garner the support of morons.

They're just arabs, not palestinians, and in fact, they didn't want to be called that at first, but then they realized that it would earn the support of bleeding heart liberals who really don't give a shit about anything, but are vocal about everything (especially when they have no idea what they're talking about.)

You, the public, of fucking morons, hear Palestinian and think, "OMFG! A new race of people! GEt them land quickly." It's.... BULLSHIT! A completely invented phrase, based on the Philistines, the ancient race that occupied Israel in biblical times. They're just arabs, and if their (very rich) governments put half that money they spend on RPG's to launch into Israel, money they use to build their bullshit temples where they spread their hateful religion, and fucking palace after palace for their so called "royalty" maybe at least one of the 50+ muslim countries would be livable, and not a nightmare of oppression and hatred. These people have all the fucking money in the world, they control all the Oil, members of muslim royalty stand in the top ten in terms of money, yet the general population lives like wild animals. And they wouldnt have it any other way, and never will. They're just gonna keep teaching their kids about what disgusting infidels Israel and America, and every other country following a "Western" approach to life are, and you bleeding heart liberal fucks would gladly pay the cost of placating them. By the way, if you're a woman, and you do one or more of the following, wear makup, go outside without your head covered, drive a car, vote, work, go to school, wear short skirts... drum roll........... the arabs want you to die... they want to kill you because of the freedom you have, and the threat it represents to the way of life they have, where their holy book gives them licence to beat their wives.

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote:

As noted in the opening posts and others throughout this thread, the major failures have been attributed to Isreal, not least the:

i) Continued settlement building / expanstion in occupied territories (in violation of International Law)

The most recent information I can find discusses the building of 20 homes. Boo friggin hoo.

ii) Establishement of the Ghettos through concrete walls, barriers and checkpoints that has turned Gaza (and the West Bank) into the New Berlin.

Checkpoints and barriers that discourage suicide bombers and kidnappers from entering Israeli territory. A completely retaliatory measure.

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: iii) Continued violations of basic Geneva Convention principles such as 'Collective Punishment' (i.e halting fuel supplies, preventing enough medical aid getting through, restricting the movements of ambulances and so forth.

I'm pretty sure halting fuel supplies to a hostile region is not against the Geneva Convention. The Palestinians do not need gasoline to literally survive. They also restrict medical aid and ambulances because (surprise surprise) Palestinian terrorists have used them to transport weapons and fighters. Do you dispute this?

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: iv) I could go on... (economic blockades, no control over sea / air / shelling of residential areas...)

So you do dispute that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties? Why don't you come out and say that Hamas should be encouraged to mine/tunnel/build rocket sites near civilian homes because it would be wrong for Israel to attack them?

Let it be clear that Hamas has also failed to live up to many obligations, (however as noted Hamas did not campaign on an anti-Israel platform and in the elections although sadly not recognising Israel also toned down mentions of 'destruction' Some people argue that Israel was 'provoked', well both sides have equal ability to claim that (see above i - iv).

Some morons argue as much because they have no concept of instigation and retaliation. To them, causes and justifications are entirely irrelevant because whoever employs the most force is always the bad guy.

Still waiting for you to directly answer some of the questions in my posts. You sure as hell aren't done yet.

By the way, if you're an American, and think that Israel shouldn't exist because it wasn't always their land, i'll listen to what you have to saythe minute you leave your house so a Native American family can move in.

At 1/4/09 06:03 PM, Doonie wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: The Provisional IRA *did* often phone before they bombed except in the case of attacks on the English mainland where warnings were often cryptic / quite late. Terrorists groups around the world know the power of bomb threats / 'target threats' into causing panic in a civilian population who are powerless to stop the aforementioned bomb. Another group known to 'warn' included Eta (Spain) at different times during its terror campaign.

X The IRA did not stand for destroying the United Kingdom.

It stood for the destruction of the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland is part of the UK) and used any violent means to do this. Your lack of fundemental knowledge of the IRA, the Provisional IRA and the Real IRA precludes you from making sense. The IRA bombed in NI, the UK and all around, including the Trafford shopping centre in Manchester causing many deaths.

X The United Kingdom did not have to deal with tens of ROCKETS shot into London every day, for 8 years.

It dealt with constant bomb threats, terrorist shootings, kidnappings and attacks on the police and army in both NI and the mainland. Your lack of knowledge of what the "United Kindom" is, saddens me.

X The IRA did not arm itself like crazy every time it discussed about peace with UK, just to break the discussion and hit the UK harder next time.

Yes it did, every time. When peace for one section of the IRA was made, another (such as the real IRA) sprouted up. They were armed with pistols, rifles, bombs, rocket launchers, and other devices. It is worth noting that despite the British army 'atrocities' that were stated to be committed (and probably wewere), there was little civilian damage in the many many many years of British army presence in NI. With Clinton's help and the final working together to turn the IRA's political arm into a real political force peace was achieved. Now Sinn Fein sits in the Assembly and peace has broken out, all without massive overwhelming destruction.

Anyway, enough on NI/UK, you know too little, even an uneducated in UK history Chinese like me knows more living here for a few years.

X the IRA were not brainwashed radical Islamics willing to sacrifice their life to hit innocent people, and get 72 virgins in heaven after that.

Nor are some the people fighting you. Your racist attitude belies your lack of knowledge of the causes of the war. Also the IRA were in a sense brainwashed, they were nationalistic and believed Ireland was for the Irish and that all UK was a legitimate target (civilians especially) (UK has owned NI for longer than Israel existed... so was their claim more or less merit, heh)

Right now as Israeli tanks plough trough the Strip killing civilians and militants alike it's both shocking

Lie. Does 90% casualties accuracy in the most populated area in the world, when Hamas is using the civilians it claims to protect as human shields is not shooting them alike. Stop being biased disgusting idiot.

90% is incorrect, the UN estimates 25%+ at least are civilian deaths, the injured will be 100's more. The likely % is probably higher, since no foreign press can reliably get in there and see the atrocities first hand. Thank God for the BBC that has a branch there.

See you at the London marches.

I'll be here hoping a Qassam or Mortar will land on your head. So you'll understand how it feels to have 15 seconds to hide, for 8 years, with government doing nothing.

How nice anorther Israeli-Nazi... What a weird combination of words, but it works so well on people who preach death to others who just want to excercise their democratic rights and protest. Oh wait... I forgot Isreal doesn't allow democratic rights to anyone except Isreali's.

Oh look, here comes an ALT (or the Isreali teenager / "Cyberinformation Team")

At 1/4/09 06:07 PM, PrestonGK wrote: It's good to know how much you high school dropouts seem to support Palestine. Maybe you should try picking up a book rather than gathering your information from biased news sources, and you'll find out what's really going on. First of all, stop calling these people fucking Palestinians, it's a made up phrase. It's something the soviets convinced them to call themselves, in order to garner the support of morons.

i) More educated than you
ii) Read a lot of books of history, read a lot of News from CNN and American sites (generally pro) to the BBC (generally neutral) to Al-J (generally against)
iii) Yes well, Israel is a madeup/recreated state by the Great Powers after a war, so lets not argue over semantics of a group of people. They're still a group of people.

You, the public, of fucking morons, hear Palestinian and think, "OMFG! A new race of people! GEt them land quickly." It's.... BULLSHIT! A completely invented phrase, based on the Philistines, the ancient race that occupied Israel in biblical times. They're just arabs, and if their (very rich) governments put half that money they spend on RPG's to launch into Israel, money they use to build their bullshit temples where they spread their hateful religion,

We *heart* racists on this forum, you'll fit right in. Since some of my friends and work colleagues are Muslim I'll remind them i) not to be hateful, ok. Sure... Sure... *rolls her eyes* You're pathetic you know that, you're the one biased and full of useless and made-up facts.

and fucking palace after palace for their so called "royalty" maybe at least one of the 50+ muslim countries would be livable, and not a nightmare of oppression and hatred.

General Comments for the win! Malaysia is pretty good example of different faiths working together by the way, (give or take the odd anti-Chinese riot!)

These people have all the fucking money in the world, they control all the Oil, members of muslim royalty stand in the top ten in terms of money, yet the general population lives like wild animals.

Yes, of course they do. That's right dear. You just uhh... keep spouting of like a 12 year old what you were taught in hate-school. Weird how they people who say Islam is a hate filled religion themselves tend to be hate filled.

By the way, if you're a woman, and you do one or more of the following, wear makup, go outside without your head covered, drive a car, vote, work, go to school, wear short skirts... drum roll........... the arabs want you to die...

No they don't dear. Depending on the country different things are allowed, for example in the UAE, women can't drive... but can do pretty much anything else. In Malaysia everything ok... Again freedoms are relative around the world, and the few Muslim women I know those who wear a headscarf do it out of respect to their religion. I don't know any Burkah wearers and I'm sure some don't want to wear them, but I'm always smiling when I see a young women in a Burkah and... high stiletto heels. It reminds me of a Muslim market I went too once, lingerie is so popular for Arab women :D

Anyway, I am going to bed... *_*

You absolutely ignored the most important parts of my message, that's astonishing.

At 1/4/09 06:30 PM, Sarai wrote:

X The IRA did not stand for destroying the United Kingdom.

It stood for the destruction of the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland is part of the UK) and used any violent means to do this. Your lack of fundemental knowledge of the IRA, the Provisional IRA and the Real IRA precludes you from making sense. The IRA bombed in NI, the UK and all around, including the Trafford shopping centre in Manchester causing many deaths.

Was my point that complicated? Maybe i should be a little bit more precise. The IRA did not stand for destroying the UK and making a Irish state instead of it. Is that clear enough?

It dealt with constant bomb threats, terrorist shootings, kidnappings and attacks on the police and army in both NI and the mainland. Your lack of knowledge of what the "United Kindom" is, saddens me.

First, I know exactly what the United Kingdom is.

What a joke. The proportions are so different it's amazing. Are you comparing it to tens of suicide bombings and tens of thousands of rockets? How blind are you? How hard it is for you to sympathize just a LITTLE BIT with Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional _IRA_campaign_1969-1997

They killed in almost 28 years, the same amount of Israeli civilians killed in 1 year.

X The IRA did not arm itself like crazy every time it discussed about peace with UK, just to break the discussion and hit the UK harder next time.

Yes it did, every time. When peace for one section of the IRA was made, another (such as the real IRA) sprouted up. They were armed with pistols, rifles, bombs, rocket launchers, and other devices. It is worth noting that despite the British army 'atrocities' that were stated to be committed (and probably wewere), there was little civilian damage in the many many many years of British army presence in NI. With Clinton's help and the final working together to turn the IRA's political arm into a real political force peace was achieved. Now Sinn Fein sits in the Assembly and peace has broken out, all without massive overwhelming destruction.

* 1,000 rifles
* 3 tonnes of Semtex
* 20-30 heavy machine guns
* 7 Surface-to-air missiles (unused)
* 7 flame throwers
* 1,200 detonators
* 20 rocket-propelled grenade launchers
* 100 handguns
* 100+ Hand grenades[53]

What a joke.
Just wondering, seriously now. IRA wasn't chosen by Northern ireland for leadership, and then used the civilians as human shields, did not in any case shoot rockets from civilian homes and schools. And again, DID NOT STAND FOR DESTROYING THE UNITED KINGDOM. (YEA SCOTLAND, ENGLAND WALES WHAT EVER).
There's a fundamental deep basic difference between the situation that i find it hard you even compare.

Anyway, enough on NI/UK, you know too little, even an uneducated in UK history Chinese like me knows more living here for a few years.

Like i stated before, i actually read a lot about the conflict and i am relatively educated about the subject.

Nor are some the people fighting you. Your racist attitude belies your lack of knowledge of the causes of the war. Also the IRA were in a sense brainwashed, they were nationalistic and believed Ireland was for the Irish and that all UK was a legitimate target (civilians especially) (UK has owned NI for longer than Israel existed... so was their claim more or less merit, heh)

I am not racist at all, please stop with this attitude.
"Some of the people fighting me" The group that is fighting me did it and is still constantly trying to, this exact group also had a unquestionable victory in the latest elections. Yes, that shoot thousand of rockets into Israeli cities, and have done many terror attacks.
That was way before an "Poor innocent Palestinians" died.
Again, the natural difference is so big.

90% is incorrect, the UN estimates 25%+ at least are civilian deaths, the injured will be 100's more. The likely % is probably higher, since no foreign press can reliably get in there and see the atrocities first hand. Thank God for the BBC that has a branch there.

Right, so we both agree no one can get a reliable numbers of the Israeli act of self defense. I believe the numbers are exaggerated, and you must agree with me that considering the situation 25%, considering many times Hamas declare their casualties as Civilians, use civilians as human shields, have cooperating civilians with them, the numbers are low. Hamas are too be blamed anyway.

And for some reason, i just knew you watch BBC. Are you aware of the fact that studies have shown the BBC is extremely biased source to the Palestinians in regards of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, coming second after Al-Jazeera, in the international news agencies.

Watch Sky News for a little bit, maybe hearing the other side would help you a bit. (Ever wonder why the support for the Palestinians is so high in the UK? Ahm Muslims Ahm BBC.)

How nice anorther Israeli-Nazi... What a weird combination of words, but it works so well on people who preach death to others who just want to excercise their democratic rights and protest. Oh wait... I forgot Isreal doesn't allow democratic rights to anyone except Isreali's.

Oh god, you are hilarious. Yes i was really hoping a qassam would land on your head...
I was just trying to prove a point, you find it so hard, so hard, you can't even a little bit, sympathize with the Israelis, you just can't. The claim that the Palestinians are poor and Israelis are evil was implanted so deep in your head.

Again, i'll just assume you agreed with what you didn't reply to. And don't bother now, because we both know you had nothing to say.

Bleeding heart hypocrite.

If you say Israel should not exist, you probably believe that neither should America? Or any European country? America was taken from the Indians, European countries, well, kind off tried to take everything off everyone else... Israel is a country now, with its own people, you can't change it back. If native americans start bombing America, wouldn't you retaliate? You might say it's not the same, true, America was conquered, a lot more people died in the process.

There was peace, Israel drew back its settlers, then Palestines decided suddenly peace isn't as nice, so they start bombing Israel... I'd be pretty pissed...

And where the hell do you get the "fact" that Israel is only democratic towards Israelian people? I've an uncle in Israel who moved in there, he also has palestine friends... There are more than a handfull of integrated Arabs in Israel. I'm not saying there won't be any discrimination, but do you really think Mexican families and black people aren't? Lots of people are tolerant, but there are others everywhere. The strike against Gaza isn't against the people, it's against being bombed over and over again, and not just letting people walk over you anymore.

I do love the people who come in here and try to defend Israel while making racist statements against arabs. Guys, seriously, it's admirable to believe in your home land and defend it against what you perceive to be distortions about it's positions and policies, but when you throw racism into the mix you invalidate every point you have made! Don't you get that? If I know that you're approaching a subject from a position of "I oppose these people because as a race they are too stupid to be anything but savage and evil" that it creates in you the very bias you're railing against others for having? You have already decided that these people are "the enemy" and it also comes off sounding like any actions against them are ok. Does Israel have a right to defend itself? Absolutely! But they also do have to respond in a way that is appropriate. I also believe that if countries like my own (The United States) wants to continue championing themselves as the defenders of the world and peace, we must approach these kinds of situations from a more neutral standpoint (we don't, we never have, we are always by default on the side of Israel, whether we say that or we don't, and it has absolutely been coming out of Bush's mouth for years that we are totally pro-Israel). The ony way to stop the fighting is through compromise and tolerance I've always felt. But also we must educate on all sides, we must seek the truth of the situation, we must understand that we must understand the root causes and eradicate them. Playing the blame game and saying "Israel is more wrong!" or "Palestine is more wrong!" isn't going to ever lead to anything but more violence, more hatred, and more of what we've been getting. Keeping the hate alive will simply keep the people who profit from it in power and getting to have their fun with the blood and carnage.

Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe there is no damn way to end it short of cutting off all aid to everybody, letting them kill each other off, and then see what can be salvaged from the ashes. Or, hey, even better, how about the UN do what it's supposed to do, as the representative of global tolerance, understanding, and yadda, and actually work in tandem by sending in diplomats, troops, and aid on BOTH sides to try and create a real and lasting peace, and getting the radical elements out of the picture? Just a crazy thought there.

israels a bitch, theyre beating up a kid just cuz he got pinched by him...

Before I get started, I'm starting to see names being thrown around in here/. Asshole and nazi being just two. Bleeding Heart hypocrite is borderline as well. So can we please keep this civil? If not then I'm getting out the ban stick.

At 1/4/09 07:05 PM, Doonie wrote: Was my point that complicated? Maybe i should be a little bit more precise. The IRA did not stand for destroying the UK and making a Irish state instead of it.

Err....yes it did. The United Kingdom's official title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern ireland. By fighting to remove Northern ireland from British control they were fighting to destory the UK and replacing Nrothern Ireland with an Irish government. It may not have wanted to destory Britain as an entity but Britain and the UK are not the same thing.

Removing Northern Ireland from th UK would eman the UK would cease to be and it would simply be Britain.

When you combine Britian with Northern Ireland you get the UK. And as for human shields, it wasn't unheard of for the IRA to actually utilise catholic and nationalist hosueholds either as hiding points and storage locations for arms. And the only reason the IRA *didn't* utilise human shields int he Hamas does is that they didn't need to as they had safe bases of operations in Eire if they needed it, and could easily hide weapons in other places, that and the fact that Britain didn't have a reputation for bombing areas. We may have killed some civilians but for the msot part they were fuck ups, and simply with rifles and the like.

If the UK acted like Israel does, then the IRA would have acted in the exact same way. Know why? Because it makes tactical sense. Cause then when you do get attacked you *can* claim the enemy is killing civilians. The logical thing here is to possibly change tactics...but seemingly Israel has yet to realise this as they continue the same tatics which have drawn international criticism in the past, and have failed in any degree to wipe out Hamas. And even if they were to wipe out Hamas, another group would just take its place.

(Ever wonder why the support for the Palestinians is so high in the UK? Ahm Muslims Ahm BBC.)

Because the British Government has historically taken the Palestinian side in the issue (depsite us being the oens toa ctually set up Israel. Ironic eh?) and as such is reflected by the BBC which is run by the Government. This is irrelevenat however as saying ' but your channel is more biased on this issue!' is pointless, especially when the BBC is one of the few agencies to be able to report with any degree of accuracy (regardless of bias) due to the fact it has someone stationed in Gaza anyway, and on top of that we ave the fact that during any conflcit casualities can not be known till hopsitilities have ceased. As such to paya ttention to one set of figures over another is stupid, as you either need to sit back and wait and say that all figures are wrong until proven right, or try and work using *all* the figures using averages and ranges.

At 1/5/09 05:16 AM, friendly-bear wrote: israels a bitch, theyre beating up a kid just cuz he got pinched by him...

its the kid's problem that he pissed mr.Israel off within the past 8 years of pinching

At 1/5/09 11:23 AM, MickTheChampion wrote: Err... If you unify Ireland, you still have the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Great Britain itself is a United Kingdom, it came from the Union of the Crowns of Scotland and England...

Irrelevant. The UK is defined as being the joint governance of Britain and Northern ireland. Yes, you can still have The United Kingdom of Great Britain, but the UK as it currently stands is the combination of Northern Ireland AND Great Britain.

Your entire point is REDEFINING what the UK is. Yes, the UK could still exist without Northern Ireland if we redefine what the UK is, hell we can redefine anythign and everything if we really want to, but the definition of the UK is Britain AND Northern Ireland. By removing Northern Ireland the UK in its current state is destroyed. Hence the IRA's aim of removing Northern Ireland from the UK is in line with wanting to destory the UK. It may not wish to wipe out its people, as I'm sure some, if not most of the active militant members of Hamas wish to do to the Israeli's, but it is the destruction of a national entity none the less.

Considering you're a scot and also an ardent nationalist of both Ireland and Scotland ( I seem to recall you supporting Scottish independence at any rate) you of all people should know that in the current context the UK is not the same as Great Britain. Ergo, the removal of Ireland from the United Kindgom means the end of the United Kingdom, and the end of the UK can be equated to its destruction.

Should the order ("Hands Up") not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching (a patrol) carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man."
-Lt. Col. Smyth, Officer in the British Army serving in Ireland, June 1920

Congratulations, you can quote a British Officer giving horrific orders which were stupid, and, as I said, were fuck ups in a situation where its long been known that the Brits fucked up. Anything important to add or are you just going to spend the rest of the time on your nationalistic high horse taking pot shots at the English?

At 1/5/09 11:50 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

as I'm sure some, if not most of the active militant members of Hamas wish to do to the Israeli's, but it is the destruction of a national entity none the less.

No. Simply. No. No. No.

All, every single one of the Hamas terrorwish to kill every single Israeli and destroy Israel. That's their goal, that's what Hamas stands for. They'd slaughter us without blinking, i promise you that.

Your sentence would have made a little bit more sense if you said "Palestinians" instead of "Hamas", which would be doubtful as well.

At 1/4/09 05:58 PM, Sarai wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote: *sigh* but there is no chance any of you assholes will get a glimpse of reality.

Thank you for the death wish dear, how nice to issue death threats above the internet.

;;;;
More of a reality wish...than a death wish, but you are one of those asses who proves their an ass just by speaking.

Anyway, perhaps all 10% of the march will be in Range :) "The average Israeli it would seem (90%) is not exposed to rocket fire. Oh wait, did I hear that 100% of Palestinian's are exposed to F15 Jet Fighters? Wow....

;;;;;
Above is a perfect example of an ass who is so morally reprehensible (& they don't even know it) As far as your concerned, its perfectly fine that 10% of Israelis are in harms way...No problem there. BUT IT's a HUGE PROBLEM that all of the Palestinians are in HARMS WAY! ! WEll if Hamas would come out and attack from behind their sheild wall of innocents, there wouldn't be a problem then...or nearly as big a problem
NONE OF US SEE YOU MARCHING FOR THAT -DEAR.

Enjoy your life of preaching hate you silly Isreali supporter, people like you are no better than the forces that were destroyed in WW2 with the fall of the Nazis, people like you wished genocide on a race using technological and military superiority and wouldn't balk at any price in human life to pay to achieve that.

;;;;;
You've mistaken me for someone else...I personally hope they all kill themselves -good riddence

People like me on the hand are willing to stand up and be counted and say what we believe is true and influence through words and marches if we can. We deplore terrorism in all forms, whether it is from a terrorist organization or from a State pursuing policies of injustice and intolerance.

No people like you are HAPPY to allow murderous anonymous Palestinians to continue targeting 10% of Israelis...as long as the Palestinians where the attacks are coming from aren't put in harms way...how sweet of you.
A Palestinian baby is MORE IMPORTANT than a Jewish baby...you should hold that head of yours up & be SO PROUD of that decission.

Enjoy wishing death threats on others, I have nothing but a wish for a lasting peace (that I have made very clear in every post).

;;;;;;;
I didn't wish you dead...having you die, wouldn't open your eyes to what a hypocrit you truely are... " Only 10% of Israelis were in harms way " I love that reasoning LM FAO
I've made it pretty clear I hope they fuckin' kill each other until theres no one left or they become so sick of what they have become they simply open their veins...either way, works for me. I think I'v been pretty clear on that.
If peace happens (Got about as much chance as you & I dating) then it has to be 100% not 100% on one side & 90% 's close enough on the other.

But a morally superior person like yourself gets easily lost...something about being unable to find the forest...because all the damn trees are in the way .

At 1/5/09 01:22 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 1/4/09 05:58 PM, Sarai wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote: *sigh* but there is no chance any of you assholes will get a glimpse of reality.

Thank you for the death wish dear, how nice to issue death threats above the internet.

;;;;
More of a reality wish...than a death wish, but you are one of those asses who proves their an ass just by speaking.

Ever listen to mods on here? Obviously not!

Anyway, besides from your statements of ill-intent to all and sundry, like all pro-Israeli's you ignore continually me and others stating that we REJECT Hamas violence and do NOT believe it is okay to fire rockets. I hate having to repeat myself so many times, but I guess that's what it takes with you. ROCKET FIRE = BAD. KILLING HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS = BAD

Just FYI of anyone not bias here, 11 Isreali's have been killed by rocket fire since 2001 according to the BBC (assuming this is roughly accurate) then that stacks up against thousands of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza and the West Bank killed by Israel. THAT IS WHAT WE PROTEST AGAINST, the illegal use of excessive force in residential areas that target civilian infrastructure and due to their inherently imprecise nature, hit civilians and... KILL them.

I would hate 11 people dying in any country... But I would temper my response with policies that actually work and do not increase BRUTALITY and bloodsheed in an already volatile region (Economic blockades, illegal restriction on movements of ambulances, targeting civilian infrastructure, etc)

It's all the same in the end anyway, Terrorists are all bad, state sponsored or not.

PS, stop swearing in your posts, it doesn't make you mature, it just makes you angsty.

At 1/5/09 04:41 PM, Sarai wrote: It's all the same in the end anyway, Terrorists are all bad, state sponsored or not.

:;;;;;
Your not protesting against Hamas...& all last year while Hamas was dropping missels on (I know 10%) the Israelis...Not a peep out of you.
No protest...no indignation...nothing about how its wrong who ever does it.
But ....magically....it's somehow different.
That my dear is Hypocrasy.
At least I'm not that. I didn't care they were bombing them last year , I don't care that they're getting their 'reward' for poking the bear if you will. But at least I'm not here talking about somehow making a difference by protesting this atrocity, even though I've been quiet about the other side of the truth that they are each equally guilty, & protesting against one shows your bias.

PS, stop swearing in your posts, it doesn't make you mature, it just makes you angsty.

;;;;;
I am very angsty against your (& those like you) type of bias . I'm not at all mature & hope that never happens to me.

No I don't protest about 11 civilians getting killed in 7 years. Because if I was to do that I'd need to do it for every country in the world (The US executes more than Hamas killed every year... China executes more than the US... Terrorists in Nigeria, Uganda and everywhere kill more, Terrorists in Xianjiang North China blow people up there...) Terror is everywhere, but except for the Iraq war, the atrocities committed in the Occupied Territories are the only other current major in my view illegal and criminal war perpertrated by a Democracy.

That is why I protest there, a Democracy should know better and the huge losses of life are simply incomprehensible.

I do far more for charity than you might be doing. And I do it for many different democratic causes (such as paying for womens' education in Afghanistan). I stand up for what I believe in and won't let purile racists drag me down. Israel's solution to the Palestinian problem are just as wrong as Hamas' solution to Israel and I will let the world know both. Deal with it, not everyone loves murderers, Government or Terrorist... either are awful.