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At 1/2/09 06:24 PM, Snicp wrote: your so funny i just crapped all over my pants
can you answer the question i just asked at the end of my last post?
if you don't see any differences then, honestly.. you have some serious problems..

i don't understand your question either; the difference between what?

At 1/2/09 02:21 AM, Alphabit wrote: I understand Israel's goal in all this, but I don't think they took appropriate action; They just pulled an Iraq 2.0... Their goal was to get rid of Hamas but instead of sending intelligence to assassinate key members, they deploy their entire war engine and blast the hell out of the whole area and causing lots of innocent casualties.

You seem to be assuming that the Israelis could take out Hamas leadership easily if only they tried "harder." And it's not true that they are lazy. Over the last several years I can recall a few instances where Israel successfully took out a senior Hamas member in retaliation for a suicide bombing or rocket attack. It's just very difficult to know where one specific man is at any one time when he is trying to be hidden. The desire to avoid civilian casualties makes it even harder, as the cost of being wrong is greater.

At 1/2/09 02:26 AM, JJANON167 wrote: Heard of the occupations of Gaza and the West Bank? Yeah, its been going on for fourty years. It doesn't matter where they aim their missiles, its still in densely populated areas, and hundreds more people are being killed by Egypt and Israel's military blockade...

I'm not trying to defend snipc, but you seem to be making the same general argument as Sarai. I've been thinking that one potential source of disagreement is that I have been acting on different basic assumptions. You see, I see Israel's actions as legitimate retribution because they are all aiming towards the same goal, an end to the attacks on Israel, and they do this with the least degree of collateral damage reasonably possible.
This is true both of the airstrikes and the blockade. The airstrikes are literally precise because the damage is limited to the target. However, airstrikes can only destroy the rockets that are discovered, and even if all were found, Hamas would still be in power and find new ways to attack Israel.
The blockade seeks to end the threat by undermining Hamas. The blockade makes it clear to the Palestininans that Hamas is incapable of providing for its citizens, and that the policies of Hamas (namely unconditional hostility towards Israel) do not lead to prosperity and advancement. Eventually, the lack of public support should bring about a more peaceful government.

With this in mind, the numbers of casualties themselves are irrelevant. Rockets from Gaza could cause no deaths at all, Israeli airstrikes could kill 10 or 1000. So long as the Israeli airstrikes are conducted with the greatest possible care for civilian casualties relative to still destroying the target, the moral responsibility falls on Hamas, because ultimately it is Israeli self-defense against aggression.

At 1/2/09 02:26 AM, JJANON167 wrote: You seem to completely ignore the territorial evictions sixty years ago, the land theft in the late sixties, all of the human rights abuses and war crimes/violations of the fourth geneva convention in occupied Palestinian territories...

If by "territorial eviction" you mean the seizing of some lands for the foundation of Israel, it is moot. Every country today contains land that it seized from others, and the only real claim on land and territory that matters is the power to take it by force. Plus, I think almost all nations in the world recognize Israel as a state, which is pretty much an endorsement of the country's legitimacy.
The same applies to the occupied territories, but there is moral legitimacy as well since Israel was waging a war of self-defense (immediate preemption--not like Iraq war preemption) and has no responsbility to return territory to an aggressive power.
You also mention human rights abuses. If you can find any instances of war crimes, etc. that were not retaliatory in nature, not officially disavowed by the Israeli government, or not brought about by the enemy resorting to it first (ie smuggling weapons in ambulances, hostile forces posing as medical/neutral personnel) I will entertain the idea. Otherwise, I'm going to need more than simple assurances from the impotent UN or the whining Amnesty International that it is the case.

At 1/2/09 06:26 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/2/09 06:24 PM, Snicp wrote: your so funny i just crapped all over my pants
can you answer the question i just asked at the end of my last post?
if you don't see any differences then, honestly.. you have some serious problems..

i don't understand your question either; the difference between what?

"israel killing their soldiers and the guys that responsible for all the Israelis deaths however Arabs
aiming to kill innocent people that don't even want war, you see the difference?"
if you were being sarcastic then just go fuck your self or some thing

At 1/2/09 06:53 PM, Grammer wrote: I think America's relationship with Israel should be something that should be looked at and given serious scrutiny, but it must also be noted that neither side, Israeli or Palestinian, are free from the blood on their hands.

It's fucking sad that you think that way. They are the bad guys. They are fanatic extreme Muslims. You people are supporting terrorism.
And Israelis are free from "the blood on their hands", because they are forced to do so.

The only ones that should be blamed, are them. They are not free from the blood they caused the Israelis to spill.

If you didn't understand it yet. Their, the Palestinians, biggest goal, is to make Israel kill as many of them as possible. And Israel trying to minimize it. Because they earn so much from the killing, they believe the people go to heaven and get 72 virgins, and at the same time, it make naive ignorant people like you support them.

Can you understand it? Have you ever heard of such a thing? Only in fanatic Islam.

At 1/2/09 07:49 PM, Doonie wrote: It's fucking sad that you think that way. They are the bad guys. They are fanatic extreme Muslims.

despite research that indicates the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a fairly secular conflict.

You people are supporting terrorism.

i don't think many people here support the actions of Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups.

And Israelis are free from "the blood on their hands", because they are forced to do so.

so the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and other civilian centres during WWII is beyond reproach because allies were forced to do so. nice.

The only ones that should be blamed, are them. They are not free from the blood they caused the Israelis to spill.

as they say; it takes two to tango.

At 1/2/09 08:06 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/2/09 07:49 PM, Doonie wrote:

despite research that indicates the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a fairly secular conflict.

No. The only claim for them is the fact that civilians are getting killed. The only people that should be blamed for that are themselves, directly and sometimes indirectly.

i don't think many people here support the actions of Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups.

Here? 99% of the Arabs support them. And many others. The "poor Palestinians" support them too, so what's the point? They also elected them democratically, even though the Palestinians knew that their official platform is that the only way is jihad, to fight Israel and destroy it. They knew it. And they knew that the way they'll fight with Israel would be guerilla warfare, deliberately dangering them, the "innocent civilians. So who are to blame? WHO ARE TO BE BLAMED?

And Israelis are free from "the blood on their hands", because they are forced to do so.

so the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and other civilian centres during WWII is beyond reproach because allies were forced to do so. nice.

All of the above were attacks targeting civilians intentionally, just like the Palestinians do, haha, but they got not responsibility do they? Only Israel has responsibility, because they are Palestinians, they are poor they can do what ever the fuck they want. They don't have to be criticized for shooting mortars using UN school as defense. , RIGHT? It's funny, i read a comment some guy wrote to the video: "OK, why is the person who is filming this not actually doing something to stop it? I mean, what an idiot. "

You know why the guy filming it is not doing something? Because if the Israelis would take out those Palestinian terrorists, the next morning news would be full with "OH MY GOD EVIL ISRAEL BOMBED INNOCENT PALESTINIANS IN SCHOOL IN A VICIOUS ONSLAUGHT,AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AND GIVEN SERIOUS SCRUTINY"

Fuck it, world of hypocrites.

Israel never did that that and ever will bomb civilians.
The only reason Palestinians die is because their own leaders who claim to protect them, are using them as human shields The reasons that i pointed the message above

*To protect themselves from Israeli bombing, because the IDF is too fucking humane, and it worked pretty good until the lastest offensive.

*They get nice propaganda, the only thing they are good at. And they use that propaganda, to make people like you support them, and to actually make it look like there are two sides.

The only ones that should be blamed, are them. They are not free from the blood they caused the Israelis to spill.

as they say; it takes two to tango.

Try dancing tango with Adolf Hitler when you are Jew.

At 1/2/09 08:30 PM, Doonie wrote:

At 1/2/09 08:06 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 1/2/09 07:49 PM, Doonie wrote:

despite research that indicates the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a fairly secular conflict.

No. The only claim for them is the fact that civilians are getting killed. The only people that should be blamed for that are themselves, directly and sometimes indirectly.

what does this conflict being largely based on secular premises have to do with who is to blame?

i don't think many people here support the actions of Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups.

Here?

this thread. you made it seem as though you were unhappy about the support for the Palestinians in this thread despite the fact that few people involved in this discussion support the Palestinians.

99% of the Arabs support them.

really, do you have anything that would back that claim? also, support for the Palestinians does not necessarily translate to support of Palestinian terror groups.
for example, though i'm not Arab, i support some form of self-sufficient development and cultural political actualization in Palestine, independent of Israel, but by no means do i support the use of force to achieve such ends or the destruction/elimination of Israel.
people working and living in peace = good
destruction/embargoes/oppression = bad.

And many others. The "poor Palestinians" support them too, so what's the point? They also elected them democratically, even though the Palestinians knew that their official platform is that the only way is jihad, to fight Israel and destroy it. They knew it. And they knew that the way they'll fight with Israel would be guerilla warfare, deliberately dangering them, the "innocent civilians. So who are to blame? WHO ARE TO BE BLAMED?

but what led up to all this? the Palestinians didn't wake up one day and suddenly decide "hey, let me hate Israel with all my being". the entire conflict is based on terrible ideas starting with the concept that Israel could be created from Palestinian lands with no hard feelings. so if anything, you could blame the British for having piss-poor foresight. the rest is based of terrible relations between both sides (since neither wanted to work with the other), propaganda and more delightful (forceful)land dealings.
you can blame every Palestinian all you want but conflicts like these aren't caused by the ordinary people, though at this point they are the reason the conflict has gone on for so long and will continue to do so.

All of the above were attacks targeting civilians intentionally, just like the Palestinians do, haha, but they got not responsibility do they?

except most news agencies do present Palestinian attacks as terrorist attacks. either way, simply because someone does something bad to you doesn't mean you can do whatever you want in return.

Only Israel has responsibility, because they are Palestinians, they are poor they can do what ever the fuck they want. They don't have to be criticized for shooting mortars using UN school as defense. , RIGHT? It's funny, i read a comment some guy wrote to the video: "OK, why is the person who is filming this not actually doing something to stop it? I mean, what an idiot. "

Palestine is heavily criticized, but unlike Palestine Israel has a working political structure and it actually has control over its population, not to mention that Israel does try its best to take humanitarian considerations into account (or at least as much as any country bordered by hostile nations can). Israel is also a wealthy developed nation, if anything Israel receives more criticism because as a first-world country the standards it is held to are higher.
why do you think no one cares about Sudan, Colombia, the Congo, West Africa, etc...?

You know why the guy filming it is not doing something? Because if the Israelis would take out those Palestinian terrorists, the next morning news would be full with "OH MY GOD EVIL ISRAEL BOMBED INNOCENT PALESTINIANS IN SCHOOL IN A VICIOUS ONSLAUGHT,AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AND GIVEN SERIOUS SCRUTINY"

Fuck it, world of hypocrites.

the current conflict is a serious problem with no single simple solution, you seem to be turning this into a discussion about who is most victimized when such thinking is irrelevant and counterproductive. it is necessary for all parties involved to constantly scrutinize one another; questioning a country's actions is not a sign of enmity.

Israel never did that that and ever will bomb civilians.
The only reason Palestinians die is because their own leaders who claim to protect them, are using them as human shields The reasons that i pointed the message above

i am well aware of that. this is an atypical conflict, but just because Palestinian leaders use civilian shields to protect themselves doesn't mean that those civilians have forfeited their right to life. i am certain that you know full well that those civilians killed only feed Palestinian hate toward Israel.

*To protect themselves from Israeli bombing, because the IDF is too fucking humane, and it worked pretty good until the lastest offensive.

*They get nice propaganda, the only thing they are good at. And they use that propaganda, to make people like you support them, and to actually make it look like there are two sides.

for a situation as fucked as this it has to be said that the IDF does a remarkable job for the most part, but your "either your are with us or against us" views don't allow for the possibility of much advancement.
criticism is not always bad.

Try dancing tango with Adolf Hitler when you are Jew.

quite being a drama queen.

At 1/2/09 09:31 PM, SolInvictus wrote: ...the rest is based of terrible relations between both sides (since neither wanted to work with the other), propaganda and more delightful (forceful)land dealings.

You make it sound as if each side were equally guilty. An easy way to superficially approach long-standing conflicts, but totally inadequate for meaningful discussion. There is a clear aggressor in this conflict, a clear instigator of the violence occuring now. The foundation of Israel was 50-60 years ago, the occupation of Gaza and the rest was 30-40 years ago. Since then the cycles of violence has almost exclusively been ignited by the Palestinians. Living as second-class citizens might be a plausible excuse, but let's not forget that Israel uprooted its own settlers out of Gaza a few years ago. Let's also not forget that the Palestinians in Gaza didn't vote for a party that promised to preserve their newly acquired gains but pledged violence to try to take even more.

The simple fact that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was followed by the popular election of a terrorist group with aggressive aims makes it difficult to argue that the Palestinians are the victims here, or that whatever happened in the past few years provides a greater justification for violence than what has happened over the past few decades.

At 1/2/09 09:31 PM, SolInvictus wrote: i am well aware of that. this is an atypical conflict, but just because Palestinian leaders use civilian shields to protect themselves doesn't mean that those civilians have forfeited their right to life. i am certain that you know full well that those civilians killed only feed Palestinian hate toward Israel.

But Israel cannot very well let Hamas continue its attacks because it fears civilian casualties. Either Hamas' entire military capability must be destroyed permanently, or Hamas must lose support among Palestinians. Acheiving the first is near impossible and inevitably involves civilian casualties, and the only way of achieving the second is to make the Palestinians suffer economically or physically. Neither option is attractive, but what would you have Israel do?

At 1/2/09 09:31 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

what does this conflict being largely based on secular premises have to do with who is to blame?

I read it wrong. Anyway, it's not true. It might be based on secular conflict, but it has now developed to something completely different. That really has as much to do with religion. Ahm extreme Islam Ahm. (It does have some with Jewish extremism, but it's influence is much smaller to none.)

this thread. you made it seem as though you were unhappy about the support for the Palestinians in this thread despite the fact that few people involved in this discussion support the Palestinians.

I was talking on the support in general, which is pretty high considering it should be close to zero considering their acts.

99% of the Arabs support them.

really, do you have anything that would back that claim? also, support for the Palestinians does not necessarily translate to support of Palestinian terror groups.
for example, though i'm not Arab, i support some form of self-sufficient development and cultural political actualization in Palestine, independent of Israel, but by no means do i support the use of force to achieve such ends or the destruction/elimination of Israel.

I do not have anything to back that claim, you'll just have to trust me on this one.
Supporting the Palestinians as you define it is OK, supporting their claim for an independent state is alright and the large majority of the Israelis would agree with you on that as well.

However more than that support, like supporting and justifying their acts - IS WRONG. So that's not supporting the Palestinians, that's supporting peace and justice. So indirectly, you are actually supporting Israel.

people working and living in peace = good
destruction/embargoes/oppression = bad.

100% agreed. Too bad the Palestinians and the Arabs make it so hard for us.

but what led up to all this? the Palestinians didn't wake up one day and suddenly decide "hey, let me hate Israel with all my being". the entire conflict is based on terrible ideas starting with the concept that Israel could be created from Palestinian lands with no hard feelings.

:so if anything, you could blame the British for having piss-poor foresight. the rest is based of terrible relations between both sides (since neither wanted to work with the other), propaganda and more delightful (forceful)land dealings.

ROFL, how far back do you wanna go, can i go far back? Because if you are going that far, when the Jews started immigrating to Palestine in the 1870's the amount of Palestinians was very small, and there was no such a thing as Palestinians nation. Only in Transjordan, which is already an independent Palestinian state today.
Most of the Palestinians came after, and with the Jewish immigration, because the Jews made Palestine the state with the highest living standards in the Ottoman empire, almost double as the surrounding state. Immigration was open. It might shock you? Well, there are people doing a lot to hide it.

But you know what? Even if you disregard that, it wasn't true, the way of the creation of Israel was conducted in 100% legitimate way, with unpopulated lands bought from the owners mainly living in transjordan, and some in the lands themselves. (And like i said before, there were many unpopulated lands). It had nothing to do with the British, that the only thing they did was promising the Jews independence, and allowed immigartion. (To the Arabs too), i'll add an article about that in the next message.
And you know what? Let's say THAT's not true, today is a fact and there's nothing you can do. Justifying acts because of past is wrong. You should look at today. And today Palestinians are acting bad and no one should support and justify that.
So if both are fair, what reasons do we have to not support Israel?

you can blame every Palestinian all you want but conflicts like these aren't caused by the ordinary people, though at this point they are the reason the conflict has gone on for so long and will continue to do so.

I'm blaming them and the Arab nations both for the past, leading us to this situation, and for the present and the way their acts today.

All of the above were attacks targeting civilians intentionally, just like the Palestinians do, haha, but they got not responsibility do they?

except most news agencies do present Palestinian attacks as terrorist attacks. either way, simply because someone does something bad to you doesn't mean you can do whatever you want in return.

I totally agree, gladly we aren't doing what ever we want in return.
On the other hand, That saying has very little to do with the Palestinians who claim we have done something bad to them, and for that are doing what ever the fuck they want in the last few decades.

Palestine is heavily criticized, but unlike Palestine Israel has a working political structure and it actually has control over its population, not to mention that Israel does try its best to take humanitarian considerations into account (or at least as much as any country bordered by hostile nations can). Israel is also a wealthy developed nation, if anything Israel receives more criticism because as a first-world country the standards it is held to are higher.
why do you think no one cares about Sudan, Colombia, the Congo, West Africa, etc...?

The criticism against Israel are way to harsh, and are way beyond criticism.
Actually, the unjustified criticism is one of the main things that block us from doing peace, because the Palestinians actually think they got a case, and therefor are continuing terror and denying the state of Israel.

the current conflict is a serious problem with no single simple solution, you seem to be turning this into a discussion about who is most victimized when such thinking is irrelevant and counterproductive. it is necessary for all parties involved to constantly scrutinize one another; questioning a country's actions is not a sign of enmity.

Above. It's not questioning, it's getting up to terror support.
Supporting Israel would lead for peace. Supporting Palestinians would lead for the destruction of Israel.

i am well aware of that. this is an atypical conflict, but just because Palestinian leaders use civilian shields to protect themselves doesn't mean that those civilians have forfeited their right to life. i am certain that you know full well that those civilians killed only feed Palestinian hate toward Israel.

There's really nothing we can do about that. The attacks are unavoidable.

for a situation as fucked as this it has to be said that the IDF does a remarkable job for the most part, but your "either your are with us or against us" views don't allow for the possibility of much advancement.
criticism is not always bad.

Criticism is always good. But false criticism is not.
And for the third time, with us or against us is alot for advancement, and i think it would lead for peace.

quite being a drama queen.

IT WAS SO PAINFUL, OH, THE HORRORS, I NOW REMEMBER THEM. WHY GOD? OH WHY?

At 1/3/09 01:06 AM, Grammer wrote:

At 1/2/09 07:49 PM, Doonie wrote: The only ones that should be blamed, are them.

That is one of the most dangerous mentalities one could come to have.

Anyways, many of Israel's problems have been brought upon itself. It's not simply "we're good, they're bad". Israel, for starters, has to stop making new settlements everywhere. Their withdrawal from the Gaza strip (in 05 or 06, I think it was), was a good step forward.

It was a vital step that proved Israel's rightness.
It was peace passed on a silver plate to the Palestinians, costing the Israelis 14 billion NIS. The Palestinians messed it up, proving Israel's point against them.

At 1/2/09 01:16 PM, Snicp wrote:

racism and prejudice

Thanks for that man! I'm really glad you came in here and told me that! Cause I was looking at this with an eye towards maybe peacefully resolving the situation and treating both sides like human beings who have just been beaten down by each other over and over and that they should really try to stop the madness. But now thanks to your well thought out views on the subject, I've decided you right, it's better to be completely prejudice, pick one side over the other, and push for the "enemy's" destruction. Thanks for that.

Anyone noticed this thread is 2 1/2 years old, and still the world is content to look the other way continually whenever Israel decide to blow up some other part of the neighbourhood?

The fact is Israel's recent actions were carried out for two, highly cynical reasons:
1.) Most governments are on their Christmas break, allowing Israel a headstart in blowing up whomever they please.
2.) Because history shows that they are continually allowed to act however they please, with little (if any) repurcussions. And that the West will continually lie for Israel.

Back when the natiopn was formed, and they started to annex areas to expand their borders, more should have been done to stop them from actions that would cause two probelsm: infuriate their neighbours (who aren't keen to have them there from the outset), and to prevent future generations of politicised Zionism knowing they can act almost with impunity. But it wasn't. Instead, arms were supplied under the banner of "aid", and nuclear armament was provided - and the person who broke the story that Israel were manufacturing their own wasn't arrested from exile in Italy, but abducted in the night.

The issue is no discourse can begin on how to manage Israel whilst the illusion of Israel being victims is being conjoured time and again. Perhaps at one time, it had weight, but not for the past couple of decades.

At 1/3/09 11:24 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: Anyone noticed this thread is 2 1/2 years old, and still the world is content to look the other way continually whenever Israel decide to blow up some other part of the neighbourhood?

The fact is Israel's recent actions were carried out for two, highly cynical reasons:
1.) Most governments are on their Christmas break, allowing Israel a headstart in blowing up whomever they please.
2.) Because history shows that they are continually allowed to act however they please, with little (if any) repurcussions. And that the West will continually lie for Israel.

Back when the natiopn was formed, and they started to annex areas to expand their borders, more should have been done to stop them from actions that would cause two probelsm: infuriate their neighbours (who aren't keen to have them there from the outset), and to prevent future generations of politicised Zionism knowing they can act almost with impunity. But it wasn't. Instead, arms were supplied under the banner of "aid", and nuclear armament was provided - and the person who broke the story that Israel were manufacturing their own wasn't arrested from exile in Italy, but abducted in the night.

The issue is no discourse can begin on how to manage Israel whilst the illusion of Israel being victims is being conjoured time and again. Perhaps at one time, it had weight, but not for the past couple of decades.

what of the stupidest posts in this topic
every country has the right to defend it self, if some country was sending quasams
for 8 years to one of your cities how will you feel? exactly, they attacked Gaza not because
they want some entertainment but because they don't have a choice

At 1/3/09 12:40 PM, Snicp wrote:
what of the stupidest posts in this topic
every country has the right to defend it self, if some country was sending quasams
for 8 years to one of your cities how will you feel? exactly, they attacked Gaza not because
they want some entertainment but because they don't have a choice

I'd say this was one of the stupidest posts in this topic: complete denial that Israel seem to conveniently find excuses to regularly bomb Palestine, Gaza, the West Bank and having a conventient devil to point at, be it the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, Lebanon, or whoever.

Israel defends itself by launching indiscriminate rocket attacks wherever, and doing so when there is no Western government sitting so that they can do so without anyone being able to react on the day, therefore giving them free reign to mete out as much death and destruction as they see fit. And that constitutes as "defending themselves"?

Tell me, does landgrabbing settlements throughout the refion also constitute "protecting themselves" as, obviously, they're finding place for their people to reside rather than, say, blatantly provoking their opponents and knowing their opponents are those painted in the unsympathetic light across the Western media?

And are you telling me that Israel didn't have a choice whenever and wherever they deployed tanks through Palestinian settlements with the flimsiest excuses but maximum damage and insult doled out?

I say people need to move away from the image of Israel as the victims of the piece, and you prove how unwilling people are to do so.

D2KVirus stop being a fucking idiot, You keep on trying to make it look like Israelis are trying to get excuses for bombing them for fun for fun.

excuses to regularly bomb

Give me one thing. ONE FUCKING THING. they earn from bombing civilians. They only lose when Palestinians die, because of you. And Sarai. And bcdemon. Because people like you exist.

The only reason. The one and only reason for death of Palestinians, is because their own leaders claiming to fight for them, are using them as human shields.
They already lost, long before.

If the Palestinians would leave their weapons today, we would have peace.
If Israel would leave down their occupation and weapons today, Israel would be destroyed.

At 1/3/09 02:18 PM, zoolrule wrote: D2KVirus stop being a fucking idiot, You keep on trying to make it look like Israelis are trying to get excuses for bombing them for fun for fun.

excuses to regularly bomb

Give me one thing. ONE FUCKING THING. they earn from bombing civilians. They only lose when Palestinians die, because of you. And Sarai. And bcdemon. Because people like you exist.

I don't think they really have anything to earn, I think their motives are just simply out of racism and intolerance to Muslims.

It's also stupid to say that if Palestinians gave up their weapons the fighting would be over. If the Palestinians gave up weapons the Israelis would find some other reason to attack them and you would probably see a full scale genocidal massacre. The west would ignore it and call the victims terrorists.

At 1/3/09 02:36 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote:

Give me one thing. ONE FUCKING THING. they earn from bombing civilians. They only lose when Palestinians die, because of you. And Sarai. And bcdemon. Because people like you exist.

I don't think they really have anything to earn, I think their motives are just simply out of racism and intolerance to Muslims.

No we don't%##%!@ WE ARE NOT RACIST AND WE DO NOT INTOLERANCE%$#$%#%# Fuck.
What have the Arab propaganda done?

If it was out of racism and hate of Muslim how come 90% of the casualties are Hamas and Hamas are using guerilla warfare and hiding inside civilians .

If it was out of hate why would we call civilians and warn them to evacuate before we bomb the near by Hamas building?

If it was out of hate how come 20% of our population is Palestinian Muslims? How come they get equal right, and are actually getting 500$ per child just because they are Arabs?

If it was out of hate why don't we just bomb the fuck out of Gaza? You know how hard it is to make 90% accuracy in Gaa?

If it was out of racism and hate of Islam why don't we do the same thing in the West bank?

If it was out of racism and hate how come we deliver Jordan millions of litters of water just for PEACE?

We don't hate anyone, we hate whoever wants to kill us. You don't want to kill us? You could be our best friend.

They are the radical Muslims, we have mainly unreligious.
They are constantly calling for our destruction, yet no one gives a fuck about that.

We want peace. They want our death. It's that simple.

It's also stupid to say that if Palestinians gave up their weapons the fighting would be over. If the Palestinians gave up weapons the Israelis would find some other reason to attack them and you would probably see a full scale genocidal massacre. The west would ignore it and call the victims terrorists.

No. I can't believe you actually think that way.

If they leave their weapons we would have peace and you can be sure on that! We are not crazy fanatic like them, we are a democratic state with free speech and human rights.

If we will leave our weapons i can assure you every single Israeli would die.

The proof for it is that in the West Bank the terror organizations are very weak and that why the Palestinians are having pretty good living standards, comparing many Arab nations as well.

According to your sick brainwashed opinion, we would have destroyed them by now, because we can.
They stop shooting rockets, they don't die.
They stop using their civilians as human shields, they don't die.

They leave their weapons. They get peace.

We leave our weapons, we die.

At 1/3/09 02:18 PM, zoolrule wrote:
Give me one thing. ONE FUCKING THING. they earn from bombing civilians. They only lose when Palestinians die, because of you. And Sarai. And bcdemon. Because people like you exist.

Simple: it's classic terror tactics to target civilians. From the Blitz, to Shock & Awe, to the Lebanon skirmishes of a couple of years ago, the aim is smash the morale of the citizens and civillians of the place with which you are warring/bullying.

Yes, people like me exist: people who don't parrot the Israeli party line and, when there's something they can't explain away, start responsed with terms like "fucking idiot." Yourself and Snicp are looking remarkably snug in that role right now.

At 1/3/09 03:01 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: Simple: it's classic terror tactics to target civilians. From the Blitz, to Shock & Awe, to the Lebanon skirmishes of a couple of years ago, the aim is smash the morale of the citizens and civillians of the place with which you are warring/bullying.

50 innocent civilians out of 400 casualties, in one of the most populated areas in the world seems like targeting civilians to you? Tell me that truth now you little hypocrite.

The IDF is the most humane army in the world.

They are fucking phoning the civilians before they bomb they bomb hamas structures.

98% of the attacks hit Hamas structures.

But you just keep on going with that disgusting biased approach.

"Classic terror", these attacks only make them hate Israel more. It contributes nothing.
The only reasons for the attack are to stop the Hamas rockets into Israeli cities.

By the way, one Israeli Palestinians died from the Hamas rockets.
No one of you came to talk against the Palestinians who are shooting rockets into Israel for 8 years already.

Israel is not targeting civilians. Israel does not want to kill civilians, you are so frustrating and i'm almost crying right now.

At 1/3/09 03:01 PM, D2Kvirus wrote:

At 1/3/09 02:18 PM, zoolrule wrote:
Give me one thing. ONE FUCKING THING. they earn from bombing civilians. They only lose when Palestinians die, because of you. And Sarai. And bcdemon. Because people like you exist.

Simple: it's classic terror tactics to target civilians. From the Blitz, to Shock & Awe, to the Lebanon skirmishes of a couple of years ago, the aim is smash the morale of the citizens and civillians of the place with which you are warring/bullying.

Yes, people like me exist: people who don't parrot the Israeli party line and, when there's something they can't explain away, start responsed with terms like "fucking idiot." Yourself and Snicp are looking remarkably snug in that role right now.

you know if Israel was fighting because it was racist they could just erase gaza from the earth in one moment but the fact that all they aiming is the hamas members and the fact that its not that simple because hamas using their civilians as human shields as the guy said

At 1/2/09 10:17 PM, adrshepard wrote: You make it sound as if each side were equally guilty.

i am not trying to quantify each side's guilt. assigning guilt is what has kept this conflict going for this long, arguing who is guiltier gets us nowhere with regards to understanding this conflict.

The simple fact that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was followed by the popular election of a terrorist group with aggressive aims makes it difficult to argue that the Palestinians are the victims here, or that whatever happened in the past few years provides a greater justification for violence than what has happened over the past few decades.

it should be noted that during Hamas' run for office it did not include the destruction of, or the refusal to recognize, Israel as part of its platform. while most people weren't surprised when Hamas reaffirmed its violent priorities rather than address the needs of the Palestinian people,they had given most of the world, and likely many Palestinians, the impression that there may be some form of hope for peace. unfortunately it has been made clear through Hamas' use of the Palestinian people that this will be as difficult as before. the Palestinians may be victims of Hamas, but they are no less victims.

But Israel cannot very well let Hamas continue its attacks because it fears civilian casualties.

there is a difference between saying that Israel must be wary when defending itself and saying that Israel should not defend itself.

Neither option is attractive, but what would you have Israel do?

neither option is particularly effective either, but that does not mean Israel cannot attempt to exercise these options if done with the goals of safe-guarding civilians and striving for an eventual peace, which Israel tries to do for the most part.

At 1/2/09 10:55 PM, Doonie wrote: I read it wrong. Anyway, it's not true. It might be based on secular conflict, but it has now developed to something completely different. That really has as much to do with religion. Ahm extreme Islam Ahm. (It does have some with Jewish extremism, but it's influence is much smaller to none.)

the role Islam plays is not even throughout, this is exemplified by the fact that the three major Palestinian parties hold different degrees of religiosity. while Hamas is a nationalist Islamic movement, Fatah is a secular nationalist movement. not to mention that many young militants and suicide bombers are/were not devout Muslims. not that this hasn't stopped the public from feting them as national Islamic heroes.

I do not have anything to back that claim, you'll just have to trust me on this one.
Supporting the Palestinians as you define it is OK, supporting their claim for an independent state is alright and the large majority of the Israelis would agree with you on that as well.

i think we may have had a misunderstanding on my position; i do not support Palestinian violence against civilians (the use of locals as human shields should be considered violence against civilians), nor do i disagree with Israel's will to defend its citizens. but given that Israel is the only reasonable government in the region, the burden of ensuring human rights on either side falls on them.
does asking a terrorist organization, such as Hamas, to play fair make any sense?

However more than that support, like supporting and justifying their acts - IS WRONG. So that's not supporting the Palestinians, that's supporting peace and justice. So indirectly, you are actually supporting Israel.

i never said that i didn't support Israel.

ROFL, how far back do you wanna go, can i go far back? Because if you are going that far, when the Jews started immigrating to Palestine in the 1870's the amount of Palestinians was very small, and there was no such a thing as Palestinians nation. Only in Transjordan, which is already an independent Palestinian state today.
Most of the Palestinians came after, and with the Jewish immigration, because the Jews made Palestine the state with the highest living standards in the Ottoman empire, almost double as the surrounding state. Immigration was open. It might shock you? Well, there are people doing a lot to hide it.

i'm not trying to use a "who came first argument" rather i was trying to point out that poor land dealing is one of the reasons the conflict began. the British had made many promises to the Arabs living there that were not kept, and then with the sudden ending of the mandate and the separation of Palestine and Israel along lines considered unsatisfactory by the Arabs, Israel was stuck facing numerous, now enemy, nations.

But you know what? Even if you disregard that, it wasn't true, the way of the creation of Israel was conducted in 100% legitimate way, with unpopulated lands bought from the owners mainly living in transjordan, and some in the lands themselves. (And like i said before, there were many unpopulated lands). It had nothing to do with the British, that the only thing they did was promising the Jews independence, and allowed immigartion. (To the Arabs too), i'll add an article about that in the next message.

the problem is that in the case of land, the people who live on it are not necessarily the owners, and the selling of inhabited property by a land owner interested in money is one of the causes of the resentment and distrust. it was legal and it wasn't Israel's fault but people still suffered because of this.

except most news agencies do present Palestinian attacks as terrorist attacks. either way, simply because someone does something bad to you doesn't mean you can do whatever you want in return.

I totally agree, gladly we aren't doing what ever we want in return.
On the other hand, That saying has very little to do with the Palestinians who claim we have done something bad to them, and for that are doing what ever the fuck they want in the last few decades.

unfortunately even non-violent actions have resulted in Palestinian suffering and further resentment. for example the building of the wall and other economic actions limit movement and the import of food and other goods into certain areas. while it has helped prevent violent altercations and the need for military intervention it has caused other problems. Israel is in a lose-lose situation.

The criticism against Israel are way to harsh, and are way beyond criticism.
Actually, the unjustified criticism is one of the main things that block us from doing peace, because

the Palestinians actually think they got a case, and therefor are continuing terror and denying the state of Israel.

i think we should figure out whose criticism were referring to. i was only talking about (legitimate) government bodies; fuck protesters.

the current conflict is a serious problem with no single simple solution, you seem to be turning this into a discussion about who is most victimized when such thinking is irrelevant and counterproductive. it is necessary for all parties involved to constantly scrutinize one another; questioning a country's actions is not a sign of enmity.

Above. It's not questioning, it's getting up to terror support.
Supporting Israel would lead for peace. Supporting Palestinians would lead for the destruction of Israel.

getting the right people to support Israel would lead to peace. it is also possible to support Palestine, or its people, without supporting Hamas and others of like mind.

...civilians killed only feed Palestinian hate toward Israel.

There's really nothing we can do about that. The attacks are unavoidable.

this doesn't mean that counter-attacks should be banned, but rather that Israel cannot be allowed to become apathetic about civilian safety. if any country would have the benefit of the doubt and the possibility to disregard the well being of civilians in a conflict zone it is Israel. it is simply a matter of assuring that Israel at no point forgets this.
like my example from WWII; the allies did not intend to target civilians but the inefficiency of bombing specific targets led to the bombing campaign we are familiar with.

"Human Shields", God where did you learn this from, yes I'm sure this has happened in a few situations. But the actual FACT of the matter is people LIVE there, lots of people LIVE there. They are not human shields. A human shield is someone who is FORCED into the line of fire. Somewhat like what Saddam Hussein did in the first Gulf War when he put people on Bridges with guns pointed at them so that they could not escape and America could not bomb.

For all of you quoting Isreali properganda from Youtube, the BBC has a rather interesting comment:

"Properganda War; Trusting what we See"

In addition with the Israeli army refusing to comply with their own Surpreme Court ruling to let in foreign journalists, it's clear to see they don't want the world seeing the atrocities being committed by their forces. I'm *so* sure that Tank Shells and Artillery are *really* accurate... Lets all shoot shells into Residential areas!

At 1/3/09 12:40 PM, Snicp wrote: what of the stupidest posts in this topic
every country has the right to defend it self, if some country was sending quasams
for 8 years to one of your cities how will you feel?

We've been sending rockets to various places in the Middle East for far longer than 8 years. Should they level our countries too?

Y'know what fuck the state of Israel it shouldn't even fucking exist; funny we condemn Iran or wherever for human rights abuses and support Israel levelling a city

if the rest of the world stopped giving either side aid then they'd soon figure out that they have to get along or kill each other; we're funnelling money into both sides so they can kill each other and it's disgusting

yes Hamas shouldn't be firing rockets, yes Hamas knew Israel would respond disproportionately, that doesn't make the disproportionate response acceptable; every time Israel gets in a conflict it responds horribly, just like you might expect a country that shouldn't even exist to respond

d'you think God in Heaven is looking down on Israel saying 'yeah guyz you're my chosen people and you're acting like it', y'know if religion didn't suck then Israelis could relocate to the Nevada Desert since America loves them so much, but no, Israel is just the nastiest piece of US imperialism. I wouldn't mind if the state of Israel continued to exist but I certainly don't like how they exist now, it's blatantly just US interests

I know some cunt will respond to my comment acting like I'm an idiot but I seriously don't understand how yankees have such unwavering support for every action Israel does unless they have an entirely pro-Israel media

And yes Hamas are cocks and firing a couple of rockets randomly into Israel is not nice, but they've killed like 4 Israeli citizens compared to hundreds of Palestinians; Israel itself says it's had like 80% accuracy which still means it has killed far fucking more innocent people than Hamas did, and that really counts when one decides who the bastard is - I would've supported a targeted ground operation more than carpet-bombing the place; y'think we're ever gonna win the hearts and minds of the Middle East with our unwavering support for these bell-ends

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: "Properganda War; Trusting what we See"

The Palestinians are just as bad

Pallywood

it is totally a propagandha war but both sides are doing it

At 1/4/09 05:18 AM, Earfetish wrote:

At 1/4/09 04:16 AM, Sarai wrote: "Properganda War; Trusting what we See"

The Palestinians are just as bad

Pallywood

it is totally a propagandha war but both sides are doing it.

Oh for sure, I hope you can tell from my posts in general through that I try and see *BOTH* sides. It's just that certain young fanatics here are so pro-Israeli that they'll believe anything they read rom the IDF or so on, without as I do questioning well... hang on a minute.

At 1/3/09 05:28 PM, SolInvictus wrote: i do not support Palestinian violence against civilians (the use of locals as human shields should be considered violence against civilians), nor do i disagree with Israel's will to defend its citizens. but given that Israel is the only reasonable government in the region, the burden of ensuring human rights on either side falls on them.
does asking a terrorist organization, such as Hamas, to play fair make any sense?

Does it make sense? No. But what is the alternative? In an idiotic move demonstrating their holding the values of freedom and democracy higher than the actual prevention of violence, America demanded elections be held. And SURPRISE! Hamas won. Well it wasn't much of a surprise considering essentially every expert suggested that outcome. So we're in it now. Hamas is in charge and Israel's pissed off and neither side can hold a ceasefire for more than a fucking week, it seems (forgive my slight hyperbole). So there's obviously armed conflict. And honestly we don't expect Hamas to be anything but the hardcore jackasses they've shown themselves to be, and Israel's actions are FAR from condonable, but yet we have to hold both sides up to reasonable standards. Israel is responsible for this recent action, certainly, and I doubt there will be many people who will dispute that is an irresponsible overreaction that will likely cause significant collateral damage. But then, to hold them responsible for the actions of both sides, does that make any more sense?

this doesn't mean that counter-attacks should be banned, but rather that Israel cannot be allowed to become apathetic about civilian safety.

NOBODY should be allowed to become apathetic about civilian safety.

if any country would have the benefit of the doubt and the possibility to disregard the well being of civilians in a conflict zone it is Israel. it is simply a matter of assuring that Israel at no point forgets this.

I don't really think anyone has the (justified) possibility to disregard the well being of civilians in a conflict zone. Israel (I had to type that five times to get it right, I shouldn't post at 4 AM) is certainly justified in an armed response to the attacks from Gaza, but it can't disregard civilian safety concerns. Honestly I think this is simply a case of overkill, is the problem. This isn't going to solve the problem permanently, by any means, so it really just amounts to a case of Israel making an unnecessary level of response.

At 1/4/09 05:15 AM, Earfetish wrote: We've been sending rockets to various places in the Middle East for far longer than 8 years. Should they level our countries too?

Hardly, but they certainly have a right to take action to prevent a repetition of those attacks. "Level[ing] our countries" would be a huge overreaction (not to mention one those nations aren't capable of currently, but I digress) which is, quite frankly, exactly what I believe IS happening. Israel has a right to protect themselves and take action to prevent future violence, however the assault against Gaza that is currently their response to the attacks that have been made against them is a ridiculous show of unnecessary power. It's equivalent to someone punching you, and you shooting them in the spleen as a response. You have the right to defend yourself, but overkill is overkill. It seems to me that the situation between Gaza and Israel is a very delicate one with frightening potential for escalation. I do wish people could learn to use to diplomacy or, at the very least, learn to keep a ceasefire for like five fucking minutes. I swear every time they sign something over there the agreement is broken five days later. To Israels credit, they're almost never the ones to shoot first (so to speak) but still, the violent reactions they've been having are hardly productive and are quite honestly despicable.

Y'know what fuck the state of Israel it shouldn't even fucking exist;

That's a ridiculous assertion. The state of Israel was established when a mandate was set to separate the country of Palestine into two smaller states: Israel (a home for the Jewish refugees of world war two (who have throughout history longed to return to what is now Israel), and the new Palestine. Where would YOU have put all of the Jewish world war two refugees? I would understand if you say the Palestinians deserved a larger share of the place or something, but why would you say Israel shouldn't exist?

funny we condemn Iran or wherever for human rights abuses and support Israel leveling a city

If you've been paying attention at all you should have the cynical realism to know it's all politics over there anyway.

if the rest of the world stopped giving either side aid then they'd soon figure out that they have to get along or kill each other; we're funnelling money into both sides so they can kill each other and it's disgusting

Yes but we can't exactly cut off aid from both sides. For one thing just because this would cause destruction and casualties to skyrocket doesn't mean either side would stop. And for another thing the only reason why you're suggesting this is because they'd hopefully realize how much more damage would get done, but this is also the main problem. As moral people we can't just cut off aid and let all of the destruction that's all but inevitable over there go untended.

yes Hamas shouldn't be firing rockets

Which brings me to another point: Hamas must be pretty stupid. I mean, honestly, they've been firing missiles at Israel for a while now. They've seen what Israel is willing to do back. Why the hell do they keep doing stuff like this? I mean this may be the worst attack (debatable) but it's certainly not the first.

yes Hamas knew Israel would respond disproportionately, that doesn't make the disproportionate response acceptable;

No it doesn't. I don't think very many people are suggesting that what Israel's done is "acceptable," but the question is are they justified in taking military action in response to the attacks they've received. I say yes.

y'know if religion didn't suck then Israelis could relocate to the Nevada Desert

Actually they were almost given Alaska. But (and I'll admit I'm not even close to objective on this) you have to understand this from the Jewish-Israeli perspective too. It's a major part of their belief, and something they've been yearning for throughout their history. And now if Palestine had been a friendlier place in the first place this wouldn't really have been much of a problem. Given the situation, however, I don't think it's unreasonable to give a piece of Palestine away. Now the size and location of the land however, I'm not so sure about, but that's all unimportant now.

At 1/4/09 06:01 AM, catman03 wrote:

Y'know what fuck the state of Israel it shouldn't even fucking exist;

That's a ridiculous assertion. The state of Israel was established when a mandate was set to separate the country of Palestine into two smaller states: Israel (a home for the Jewish refugees of world war two (who have throughout history longed to return to what is now Israel), and the new Palestine.

Which was based on the idea that the Jews had a 'right' to that land due to the fact that they used to own it as a people. Using that kind of logic Italy has the right to claim owenership over most of Europe due to it once being under Roman control.

Of course it would be laughed at if italy were to make such a claim as the Roman people were not the same as the Italian people of today and not a single living italian can lay legitimate claim to the land Rome once ruled over. The same goes for Israel when it was first created, no jew at the time had any right to the land that they were given. However that is not to say that Israel in itself should now be disestablished, with the time that has progressed since its inception new generations have been born on Israeli soil and who have known no life other than that within Israelis borders, for their sakes, for they're the people who have a right to the land in my mind, Israel should be allowed to continue to exist, because to remove it would uproot millions of people.

Where would YOU have put all of the Jewish world war two refugees?

Back to the countries they were running away from originally if it was possible, or if not, integrate them into the nations that they had sought refuge in. The numbers of jewish refugees whislt large were not that vast that it could not have been done. They were only given the land of Israel essentially as a way of saying ' oh shit! WE kind of let 6 million of you die at Hitler's hands.... our bad!'.

I would understand if you say the Palestinians deserved a larger share of the place or something, but why would you say Israel shouldn't exist?

Because the original claim for the land was luridcrous and based upon an historical notion of ownership which has *no* validity within the modern world. The Jewish peoples arguably were entitled to a land of their own but it was not the right of Europe and the US togive away land at random based on historical notions of ownership.

And for another thing the only reason why you're suggesting this is because they'd hopefully realize how much more damage would get done, but this is also the main problem. As moral people we can't just cut off aid and let all of the destruction that's all but inevitable over there go untended.

Unfortunately it's not possible to make an omlette wuthout breaking a few eggs. I personally believe that with the current mindset of both Israel and Palestine, an escalation of violence and death is the only way they'll see sense.

Which brings me to another point: Hamas must be pretty stupid. I mean, honestly, they've been firing missiles at Israel for a while now. They've seen what Israel is willing to do back. Why the hell do they keep doing stuff like this? I mean this may be the worst attack (debatable) but it's certainly not the first.

We can flip this on its head and say the same thing about Israel. Why do they continue to undergo such methods when the have proven to be inneffectual time and time again? Israel does it because they feel under threat and are under attack. Likewise the Palestinians view the Israeli's as an invading force to a certain extent, hence why they continue to fight, to drive out the invaders.

At 1/4/09 06:30 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Back to the countries they were running away from originally if it was possible, or if not, integrate them into the nations that they had sought refuge in. The numbers of jewish refugees whislt large were not that vast that it could not have been done. They were only given the land of Israel essentially as a way of saying ' oh shit! WE kind of let 6 million of you die at Hitler's hands.... our bad!'.

I agree with you that it wasn't as well planned out as it should have been, and that the way that Israel was formed caused quite a bit of the problems that exist today.

But Israel exists now, and who has any right to say that the Israelis who have lived there now for several generations do not have the right to be there?

I would understand if you say the Palestinians deserved a larger share of the place or something, but why would you say Israel shouldn't exist?

but it was not the right of Europe and the US togive away land at random based on historical notions of ownership.

Agreed.

But again, it seems hypocritical to say that Israel shouldn't exist now that it already does. Removing Israel from their country would be just the same as removing the people before them to put them in.

Unfortunately it's not possible to make an omlette wuthout breaking a few eggs. I personally believe that with the current mindset of both Israel and Palestine, an escalation of violence and death is the only way they'll see sense.

Which brings me to another point: Hamas must be pretty stupid. I mean, honestly, they've been firing missiles at Israel for a while now. They've seen what Israel is willing to do back. Why the hell do they keep doing stuff like this? I mean this may be the worst attack (debatable) but it's certainly not the first.

We can flip this on its head and say the same thing about Israel. Why do they continue to undergo such methods when the have proven to be inneffectual time and time again? Israel does it because they feel under threat and are under attack. Likewise the Palestinians view the Israeli's as an invading force to a certain extent, hence why they continue to fight, to drive out the invaders.

It is true. I became friends with a few Israelis this summer in Germany, and one of them spoke to me extensively about his views on the world, politics, and Palestine. He said that he knew that Palestinians are completely bent on killing all Israelis and Jews, man, woman, and child, and he must defend them by killing Palestinians.

I, of course, did not argue despite feeling completely different about the subject. But I am sure that a lot of Palestinians feel the same way about the Israelis, and I feel that this sort of mentality is probably quite prevalent on both sides. It also explains the recent report about the Israeli who ordered the killing of a 13-year old Palestinian girl and declared that all who enter the zone should be shot, even if they are 3-years old.

I suppose this war will serve as an interesting, though sad, stepping stone. I hope that Hamas disappears, but I also hope that Israel will stop driving the Palestinians to such desperation as to elect such a group as Hamas.

But ,even if the creation of Israel was a poorly planned event, now that it exists how can you deny its people its right to exist?

At 1/4/09 08:50 AM, Tancrisism wrote: But ,even if the creation of Israel was a poorly planned event, now that it exists how can you deny its people its right to exist?

I specifcally said in my post that I felt that the state should continue to exist as their are now generations of people who have known no other life apart from that in Israel and that the land should be considered their's. I might not have worded it wonderfully but it is there in the 2nd paragraph.

I have yet to hear anyone condemn Canada for having Hockey as our National Sport. The Americans, can't seem to make up their collective mind if its Baseball or Football (not Soccer) that is their National Sport & IMO why can't they have both. Europe & much of South America & SouthEast Asia enjoy a multi NAtional obsession with Soccer (the real football game...where you use your feet to move the ball ).

So why can't we all just sit back & let the Palestinians & the Israelis enjoy their National Sport . KILL THE OTHER GUY.
Why do we have to 'pick sides'. We're not over there, so lets kick back, grab a cold one & enjoy the game. They want to kill each other with an obsession that rivals the most rabid of sports fanatic's behaviour, let them. Why are you getting worked up about it ?
It doesn't matter.
What's next...you all want to try & stop Soccer...too much running...too much sweating ???
If the Palestinians don't care & the Israelis don't care...& its obvious to me neither side gives a flying fuck about the other & are perfectly happy to slaughter each other !
Why should we care ?
Actually my only sore spot is there's too much advertising on all the Web video's that are available, showing the fighting...cause you all know the popular video's get the most advertisments :(