Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 7/13/06 04:18 AM, Turandot wrote: too long to read.

Isn't it against the BBS rules to show nude people in your profile and/or sig?

At 7/23/06 10:28 PM, Kalandro wrote:

At 7/13/06 04:18 AM, Turandot wrote: too long to read.

Isn't it against the BBS rules to show nude people in your profile and/or sig?

Nah, not in this case, but it is to post TLDR. Bye

Wait, someone else has banned you :/

Turandot, in all curiosity why do care what fate befalls the Middle East? Does conflict in that part only involve(with exception of oil prices) those who live there? Why even care what jews do to arabs, arabs do to jews? It is their strife to sort out. My philosophy is don't get involved unless it affects you.

At 7/24/06 01:31 AM, PwnageInACan wrote: My philosophy is don't get involved unless it affects you.

That's a pretty shitty philosophy on life.

At 7/24/06 01:35 AM, RedScorpion wrote:

At 7/24/06 01:31 AM, PwnageInACan wrote: My philosophy is don't get involved unless it affects you.

That's a pretty shitty philosophy on life.

How so? It's my philosophy of engagement, actually.

At 7/24/06 01:36 AM, PwnageInACan wrote:

At 7/24/06 01:35 AM, RedScorpion wrote:

At 7/24/06 01:31 AM, PwnageInACan wrote: My philosophy is don't get involved unless it affects you.

That's a pretty shitty philosophy on life.

How so? It's my philosophy of engagement, actually.

First, tell me your definition of 'affects you'. I ask this, because I don't wish to use an untactful argument.

There are several levels of 'affection'. The lowest could be considered direct impact actions, such as right to guns (if you have a gun), taxes, being evidicted, fired, hired, discrimination against you, being mugged, winning the lottery. A low poltical interest, unless direct affection.

Further up, could be indirect impact actions. Family members being affected, friends being affected by tragic or prosperous conditions. New laws or acts that affect conditions of those dear to you. Political interest is moderate, interest in leaders statements hold more interest, particularily because they command the fate of the nation.

And further up, those who are affected by tragic or blessful actions, but have no personal connection to oneself. Events which could set precedence to events that would affect you. Political interest extends to world wide and regional affairs that affect your nation, and on a further basis, that affect friendly or 'enemy' nations.

Note that the personal and political sides are two seperate clauses and are meant to be approached seperately. Also, I picked most of it from my ass. :-P

I personally take interest in the events of the world, because of my attactment to humanity. Even if these conditions never affect you personally, it provides an ideal place to view how events will turn out in reality, and how people react to the actions of others. If we can learn from other people's mistakes, then it may be possible to prevent those same mistakes from happening to ourselves (though some people never learn). It also goes to realize the amount of despair and hatred people experience in other parts of the world, and to have a basis of acknowledgement for the blessings that we receive in our lives.

'Caring', is not a weakness.

You ask, 'Why voice your opinion on something that would never affect you?'.

Why do we voice our opinion?

Also, if your philosophy of engagement is to not get involved unless it affects you - why speak against Turandot's voicing of her opinion on the matter? Does that not exclude the possibility of non-involvement?

At 7/24/06 01:31 AM, PwnageInACan wrote: My philosophy is don't get involved unless it affects you.

It does affect us, unfortunately.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."
Bin Laden fatwa against America.

Our name is always used in the same breath when Israel does something. Whenever they do something, bad or good, the USA is also mentioned. So we have to get involved when what they are doing is incredibly self defeating in nature, for both them and more importantly, in my opinion (what can I say? Im an American), for us.

If you aint American, well, I guess you can let them kill eachother all they want if you dont give a shit.

Here is something important to consider, something all the Israeli's ignore mostly. Please note I did not write this article, it is attributed to Johnann Hari.

"As Israeli forces killed more than 300 civilians and drove half a million people from their homes in the name of stamping out "Terrorism", a small sour, historical irony passed innotiticed last week in jerusalem.

The veterans of another terrorist organization gathered, right under the nose of the Israeli ofrces to celebrate the slaughter of 91 people including 28 Britains in a hotel. It fondly recalled planting bombs that blew ip civilians on buses, in markers and cafes, introducing these tactics to the middle East.

It looked back on rounding up the entire population of a village, 251 men, women and children and shooting them all.

It even marked the memory of kidnapping the other side's soldiers and holding them for weeks, before hanging them by the neck until they were dead.

So has this 'terrorist' organization been punished by IDF? Not quite.

The group in question is called Irgun, and it was made up of Jewish nationalists whose children now comprise the Israeli establishment. Through the 1930's and 1940's it planted bombs across Palestine, targeting both British soldiers and Palestinian Civilians. It had two goals: To drive the British out, and to terrorise the Palestiniian population into unconditional acceptance of the state of Israel.

Ehud Olmert, Israel's "War on Terror" prime-minister, can scarcely condemn them. He spent the first three years of his life living in one of their terror training camps while his parents worked as gun runners. Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister widely tipped as a future PM, is the daughter of the Irgun's director of military operations, in other words a mastermind of civilian slaughter.

While the war in Lebanon went supernova last week, the remaning Irgun fighters unveiled a plaque marking the 60th anniversary of their decision to blow up the King David Hotel. If onnly Olmert, Livni and the wider Israeli public could remember their own Country's history of Terrorism, they would be able to see how futile their own current campaign against 'terrorists' in Gaza and Lebanon is.

When Jewish peple were deprived of a state, a section of their population took up arms and fought for one, often with terrible tactics. Some of them even dreamed of ethnically cleansing the Palestianinas. The palestinian people are in exactly the same position today, stoked and supported by Hamas and Hezbollah.

...

I Had just been reading "The Revolt", the memoris of Menachem Bein, the Irgun commander who went on to become the first Likud prime Minister of Israel. "Blood brought our revolt to life" he wrote. "Only when you are prepared to stand up to Zeus himself in order to bring gire to humanity can you achieve the fire-revolution"

-Johann Hari, -Independent Newspaper UK (www.independent.co.uk)

---

Israel justifies it's actions, but it is a Terrorist state itself. Israel brought suicide bombing to the Middle East and now it complains.... LOL I see no difference between Hamas or Hezbollah's actions and Irgun's. Israel tolerates Irgun now, they should tolerate being bombed by Hezbollah.

At 7/24/06 08:01 AM, Turandot wrote:

Israel justifies it's actions, but it is a Terrorist state itself. Israel brought suicide bombing to the Middle East and now it complains.... LOL I see no difference between Hamas or Hezbollah's actions and Irgun's. Israel tolerates Irgun now, they should tolerate being bombed by Hezbollah.

Israel do not tolerate Irgun. In fact, in our schools we are taught to look back at the Irgun in a very negative light.

If the best you can do to argue on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to bring out exampels dated 50 years back, I'd say you're not doing too well.

Although the anti-war movement in Israel appears to be pretty marginal some are refusing to serve out of ideological motives.
Staff Sergeant Itzik Shabbat is apparently the first one who has willingly refused duty, although the website of the Yesh Gvul movement claims that there are others. Shabbat was already on the list of those who refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories but he apparently disagrees with the way this conflict is handled as well.

At 7/24/06 08:19 AM, Dzex wrote:

At 7/24/06 08:01 AM, Turandot wrote:

Israel justifies it's actions, but it is a Terrorist state itself. Israel brought suicide bombing to the Middle East and now it complains.... LOL I see no difference between Hamas or Hezbollah's actions and Irgun's. Israel tolerates Irgun now, they should tolerate being bombed by Hezbollah.

Israel do not tolerate Irgun. In fact, in our schools we are taught to look back at the Irgun in a very negative light.

If the best you can do to argue on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to bring out exampels dated 50 years back, I'd say you're not doing too well.

Why are they allowed to continue then? Why can they unveil a plaque and celebrate the bombing?

Why don't you see that you did it before anyone did to you? It's a cycle of everyone's fault, not just Hezbollah as you just say.

At 7/23/06 11:48 AM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 7/23/06 11:39 AM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Make the Afghanistan strategy work.

What the hell are you talking about? They ALREADY had a democratically elected government. They ALREADY had a pro-Western government. They ALREADY had a government run by secularists.

Yeah, but the current Lebanese government does not control the south where Hezbollah lives. So, yeah, an Afganistan plan for south Lebanon, not the whole country. Get the Lebanese government back in control of the whole country.

Israel is threatening that with their incursion. They are giving Hezbollah talking points to get Syria back into Lebanoon. And now that Iran sees they can fight the USA and Israel with a proxy they probably dont give a crap about, I wouldnt be suprised if their funding and equipment get an upgrade. And Lebanon reverts back to incredible instability.

You are assuming Israel fails at pushing back Hezbollah or something. If Israel wins, I doubt Iran or Syria will feel more confident; Lebanon might even be more stable if the Lebanese government can get back in control of the south.

And Afghanistan working? The place is free of the Taliban but its reverting back to a tribal society. What exactly have we done there in the long run? Jack.

They are trying to kill the terrorists there like we did in Afganistan; do not take the comparison of the current conflict to the Afganistan war too far. Completely different stuff....and it is a bit soon to judge Afganistan IMO. It has not even been that long since the US kicked out the Taliban.

At 7/24/06 09:10 AM, Turandot wrote:

Why don't you see that you did it before anyone did to you?

The "who did what before" issue is pointless because no one can truely point their finger at one of the sides.

It's a cycle of everyone's fault, not just Hezbollah as you just say.

Pfft. Don't pretend that this is the point you've been trying to make all along.
No one denies that it's a cycle of everyone's fault. I never said Israel's hands are clean.

The argument here is about which side actually wants to end the long lasting conflict in a peaceful manner, and which side will only be satisfied with the complete destruction of the other.

I stand with Israel.

At 7/24/06 09:10 AM, Turandot wrote: Why are they allowed to continue then? Why can they unveil a plaque and celebrate the bombing?

They are irrelevant. Perhaps Irgun has a historical role, but I do not think they have any current role. Perhaps that was his point. Like the KKK in the US; nobody likes them. They are allowed to exist only because they are so irrelevant to the issues of today. And the reason they are allowed to exist is because governments like the US and Israel do not punish people for what they believe in or what they say.

Why don't you see that you did it before anyone did to you? It's a cycle of everyone's fault, not just Hezbollah as you just say.

The Israeli government does not support Irgun or any other terrorism. Therefore, they are not to blame for Irgun's actions. This contradicts you reference to them by the word "everyone."

The Israelis being attacked are not to blame for Irgun's actions, so there is no validity in using them to equate Israel with Hezbollah.

Red Cross says ambulances hit

Meanwhile, Israeli bombs hit buildings and cars Monday in Maaliye, south of Tyre, Lebanon, and Israeli forces struck a truck in Kfarshima, southeast of Beirut, near the main airport, Lebanese security forces said.

The Israeli air force struck a site east of Sidon used by Hezbollah to launch rockets and a car with militants who were fleeing from the area after launching rockets, an IDF spokesman said.

An Israeli missile also hit two Red Cross ambulances late Sunday in the southern Lebanese town of Qana, killing one person and seriously wounding two others, a Red Cross official said.

The official said the ambulances were clearly marked as Red Cross vehicles and were part of an effort to transport the wounded to hospitals in Tyre.

There was no immediate comment from Israeli military officials

Source CNN

Oh look, Israel targets Ambulances. Got to love their terrorism and then the swift excuses or denials from Lidov et al on here.

At 7/24/06 02:32 PM, Sarai wrote:

Oh look, Israel targets Ambulances. Got to love their terrorism and then the swift excuses or denials from Lidov et al on here.

Not to bring this up, but do your really think they would target a Red Cross ambulance or could that just be the result of some horrible error in judgement.

What Isreal is doing isn't the best thing out there, but what else do they have. Hebollah has intergrated itself into the urban enviroments, so there will be civilian causualties.

The targeting of the port and Airports is of course horrible along with it.

But what else is there for Isreal to do in effect.

People that call for the immediate peace between the nations, aren't giving up any other plans for the protection of Isrealis citizens.

he can you as long as you are not muslim

At 7/24/06 09:38 AM, Wyrlum wrote: Yeah, but the current Lebanese government does not control the south where Hezbollah lives. So, yeah, an Afganistan plan for south Lebanon, not the whole country. Get the Lebanese government back in control of the whole country.

That kind of planning has already hit the fan. There is bombing all over the country and Israel is showing a total disrespect to the Lebanese central government.

You are assuming Israel fails at pushing back Hezbollah or something.

They WILL fail. You tell me how you defeat an ideology/irregulars/insurgents, tactically. Please, I am all ears. Because if you are caliming you can root out an insurgency solely militarily and tiactically, that is the first time I have EVER read anything of the sort. And that is exactly what Israel is doing.

They are trying to kill the terrorists there like we did in Afganistan; do not take the comparison of the current conflict to the Afganistan war too far.

I have postedly repeatedly how you cannot kill an ideology with weapons. Its IMPOSSIBLE. Violence and instability ends up just fueling MORE violence. Do you honestly think Hezbollah didnt want for all this to happen, to goad Israel into fighting them.

It has not even been that long since the US kicked out the Taliban.

And the Taliban is seeping back into Afghanistan. Didnt work there, wont work here.

How do you defeat an ideology, FABOULOUS? I mean, while they are bombing and kidnapping you. I can't figure out how Israel could change the ideology of Hesbollah in any meaningful way.

At 7/24/06 03:27 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: I can't figure out how Israel could change the ideology of Hesbollah in any meaningful way.

they could have a tea party.

At 7/24/06 03:27 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: How do you defeat an ideology, FABOULOUS? I mean, while they are bombing and kidnapping you. I can't figure out how Israel could change the ideology of Hesbollah in any meaningful way.

CHART 2. SUCCESSFUL AND UNSUCCESSFUL COUNTERINSURGENCY PRACTICES.

Failed counterinsurgencies reveal unsuccessful operational practices. The American intervention in Vietnam and the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan are examples of these malpractices. In the critical early periods of these wars, military staffs rather than civil governments guided operations, which were typified by large-unit sweeps that cleared but then abandoned communities and terrain. Emphasis was on killing and capturing enemy combatants rather than on engaging the population. In particular, Americans and Soviets employed massive artillery and aerial firepower with the intent to defeat enemy forces by attriting them to a point of collapse, an objective which was never reached.
Kalev I. Sepp, Ph.D

"The old idealistic and rules based warfare is now gone. It has morphed and melded into all sorts of other messy dynamics. You cant seperate the political, cultural, historical, issues fromt the honorable blood thats shed on the battlefield. Now, a military professional has to understand all these other dimensions of war, and how his or her particular piece of the action fits into the totality of the effort.

Today, if the United States takes some kind of military action, its efforts shoot out beyond the military dimension. If the United States conducts a military operation to root out insurgents in some village, what we do to the tribe members who live in the village could alienate them. But if we choose another way to root out the insurgents, we might build confidence in the tribe and bring them over to our side."
-Gen. Tony Zinni (Ret.)

You dont change Hezbollah, you change the populace to bring them to YOUR side so Hezbollah is significantly weakened. They derive their strength from the populace. You bring the populace to YOUR side, you kill Hezbollah.

He's right.
Israel is taking innocent children's parents, what do you think they'll want to do later on?
Striping mothers of their children in front of their eyes, then you wonder how some people can blow themselves up just to hurt you.

Israel is hated more than ever, and it's all its own fault. If there ever is a ceasefire plan (even if there isn't one) Hezbollah will get stronger then this is going to start over again, or keep on for a long time.

And I wish America leaves Israel alone, they've been more than generous and you know Israel is worth nothing without them.

Israel kills UN members from 4 different countries. Fucking terrorists.

At 7/26/06 01:05 AM, bcdemon wrote: Israel kills UN members from 4 different countries. Fucking terrorists.

NO WAI. BUT THATS IMPOSSIBLE.

Those peacekeepers must have been terrorists - or it was bombed 'as an unfortunate accident'

Seriously though... these observation posts and their locations are both known and marked on maps... how do you bomb it by accident?

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli defence forces of a UN observer post in southern Lebanon," Mr Annan said in a statement.

He said the post had been there for a long time, was marked clearly, and was hit despite assurances from Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would not be attacked.

"I call on the government of Israel to conduct a full investigation into this very disturbing incident and demand that any further attack on UN positions and personnel must stop," he added.

But Dan Gillerman, Israel's UN ambassador, reacted furiously, describing Mr Annan's comments as "premature and erroneous".

"First of all let me express Israel's deep regret for the tragic incident," he said, adding Israel was investigating. He then 'parroted' Mr Annan, saying he too was "shocked and deeply distressed" by the "hasty statement".

"He went far too far for the seasoned and experienced diplomat that he is. I think that his statement was irresponsible, unfortunate and deplorable," Mr Gillerman said.

Observers from Canada, China, Austria and Finland were among the dead at the UN post, UN and Lebanese officials said.
------

To be fair, everyone makes mistakes and if this was a mistake, some grunt is going to have his ass tarred and feathered.

However, since we cant prove or disprove it was a mistake, speculation is unneded. It still makes me pause the IDF managed to hit a UN post that was clearly marked and was definately known to exist by the IDF. Kinda makes you wonder about the rest of thier "targeted strikes."

At 7/26/06 02:50 AM, FAB0L0US wrote: To be fair, everyone makes mistakes and if this was a mistake, some grunt is going to have his ass tarred and feathered.

However, since we cant prove or disprove it was a mistake, speculation is unneded. It still makes me pause the IDF managed to hit a UN post that was clearly marked and was definately known to exist by the IDF. Kinda makes you wonder about the rest of thier "targeted strikes."

According to the UN the observation post had been shelled 16 times, the four UN members took shelter in a bunker under the post which was then hit with heavier weaponary.

Later a rescue team clearing rubble to get to them was also shelled.

This totally validates all my points all along, Israel cannot claim to be able to launch pin-point attacks in civilian areas if it can't even manage to avoid a UN post clearly marked on a map and known to Israel before the conflict started.

If they manage to bomb that, then what chance to they have of keeping civilian deaths very low in areas where Terrorists are hardly likely to paint a big sign on their house saying 'TERRORIST'.

Israel needs to be made to withdraw and the people responsible for killing UN workers should be hanged. 16 shells is not a mistake, a further guided weapon is not a mistake, the shelling of the rescue team is not a mistake. It is a war crime.

One Chinese national was killed, I hope my country imposes sanctions against terrorist Israel.

"The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the post, in which four military observers were sheltering.

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble."

Source

War Crimes mount.

At 7/24/06 03:17 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: That kind of planning has already hit the fan. There is bombing all over the country and Israel is showing a total disrespect to the Lebanese central government.

Yet, the fact remains that the democratic Lebanese government would love to have control over the south again and would love to see Hezbollah defeated. Israel does not have to be best friends with Lebanon, and they will never be so.

They WILL fail. You tell me how you defeat an ideology/irregulars/insurgents, tactically. Please, I am all ears. Because if you are caliming you can root out an insurgency solely militarily and tiactically, that is the first time I have EVER read anything of the sort. And that is exactly what Israel is doing.

You get the Lebanese government back in control of the south. Perhaps send in NATO forces and establish a buffer zone. Israel does not need to kill all of the insurgents or defeat an ideology. They just need to stop the crossborder attacks.

I have postedly repeatedly how you cannot kill an ideology with weapons. Its IMPOSSIBLE. Violence and instability ends up just fueling MORE violence. Do you honestly think Hezbollah didnt want for all this to happen, to goad Israel into fighting them.

But, you can stop the violence to Israelis by doing the things I just mentioned. Defeating an ideology is not necessary.

And the Taliban is seeping back into Afghanistan. Didnt work there, wont work here.

That statement is just a continuation of ideas to which I have already responded. Israel does not have to defeat an ideology or kill 100% of their enemies to achieve victory in Lebanon. Those are not the criteria of success or failure. I mean, I guess WW2 was a failure because there is still Nazism, and I guess the American Civil Rights movement was a failure because there is still racism.

China Condemns Israel murder of Chinese UN peacekeeper

Good.