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At 7/23/06 04:34 AM, Dzex wrote:

At 7/23/06 02:36 AM, Visual wrote:

At 7/23/06 01:48 AM, Dzex wrote: Israel's greatest sin, in it's enemy's eyes, is merely existing.

Good, now tell me why.

Because they don't have enough space in the Middle East? right? (wrong.)
Perhaps they don't like Jewish people and wanted to finish what Hitler started?
Or maybe because of the century long conflict between the Israelites and arabs?

It doesn't matter why. They wouldn't give peace a chance from the very beginning.

*cough* BS

Check the AI reports for 2005, pre-2006 report and the 2004 report. Deaths were decreasing at a dramatic rate since 2004 due to both sides taking a few steps back. Your 'peace-wall' helped, their democratic Government kept to it's truce.

It's stupid to expect all attacks to stop. Israel was still abusing human rights in Gaza at that time.

Over-reaction and murder from Israel, expected.

At 7/23/06 04:34 AM, Dzex wrote:
Because they don't have enough space in the Middle East? right? (wrong.)
Perhaps they don't like Jewish people and wanted to finish what Hitler started?
Or maybe because of the century long conflict between the Israelites and arabs?

It doesn't matter why. They wouldn't give peace a chance from the very beginning.

You were closer at first. The rest is just silly crap.
I think there was something where Israel is now, no? However I don't expect it to suddenly vanish now. You took their land, they are pissed about it. So stop acting innocent and not expect them to put up the little resistence they have left. This gets to me the most in this whole conflict.

Tell us, what?

At 7/23/06 01:35 AM, Visual wrote:
You have no idea of what Israel has done here, and the hate it generated against itself.

Tell us what???

At 7/23/06 05:15 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/23/06 04:34 AM, Dzex wrote: It doesn't matter why. They wouldn't give peace a chance from the very beginning.

*cough* BS

*cough* Lame.

Check the AI reports for 2005, pre-2006 report and the 2004 report. Deaths were decreasing at a dramatic rate since 2004 due to both sides taking a few steps back. Your 'peace-wall' helped, their democratic Government kept to it's truce.

And that has anything to do with my point...because?

It's stupid to expect all attacks to stop. Israel was still abusing human rights in Gaza at that time.

It's stupid indeed to except all attacks to stop while terrorist organizations are in power.
Israel's fight is existential, and there is no reason for Israeli to halt self defense until it's existence is not under threat anymore.

Over-reaction and murder from Israel, expected.

Blank statements and further fueling of anger by turnadot, expected.

At 7/23/06 05:15 AM, Turandot wrote:

Check the AI reports for 2005, pre-2006 report and the 2004 report. Deaths were decreasing at a dramatic rate since 2004 due to both sides taking a few steps back. Your 'peace-wall' helped, their democratic Government kept to it's truce.

I'd like to add upon my previous post, that what you concider a truce is, in reality, the time that the Palestinians use to regroup and reload.

At 7/22/06 08:58 PM, Wes_is_king wrote: The best way I've heard this whole situation described is like this:

This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

so not the same!!!
USA and Canada are peaceful neighbors.
Israel and Lebanon were never in peace.
is there some kind of organization in canada that hates americans, wants to kill them and acts by bombing, kidnapping whenever possible, threatends them, and poses an actual treat on the USA?!

At 7/22/06 08:58 PM, Wes_is_king wrote: The best way I've heard this whole situation described is like this:

This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

I agree with NoF, this is not the same at all. USA isn't occupying any parts of Canada against UN resolutions. USA doesn't hold thousands of Canadians in jail indefinately. And, USA doesn't hold us captive in our own country, with roadblocks and 20 foot high walls. Oh, and the US doesn't kill hundreds of us a year either.

See, it is so not the same.

At 7/23/06 06:23 AM, NoF wrote:

At 7/22/06 08:58 PM, Wes_is_king wrote: The best way I've heard this whole situation described is like this:

This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

Umm well see heres the thing...that could never happen because Canada has control of all of it's military and police and political parties unlike the Lebannese government with Hezbollah so the cop would be returned in about 24 hours, and how would he get acrosss the b order with a kidnapped american police officer?

At 7/22/06 06:12 PM, Lidov wrote:

At 7/22/06 02:28 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: The problem is, NO ONE asked for Israels help. NO ONE wants Israels help.

We need to get the Hezbollah out because it is bombing us, since they didn't ask for anyone's help from their own will, we had to do something.

Fine, then dont pretend you are doing them any favors because I can promise you damn every person in Lebanon would tell you, in fact, you are not.

They could have asked for help on the first days and finish it, but they didn't, since it is not going to be stopped by itself, we need to stop it.

And Israel could have asked for cooperation instead of deciding to level fuckin everything that MIGHT possibly have terrorists associated with it. They didnt and they acted to fast without even any attempt at diplomacy. So now 30 Israelis are dead because of the escalation, 330 Lebanese are dead because of the escalation. There are 500,000 Lebanese refugees and damn near no way for NGO's or the UN to come in and give aid to them because of the blockade and destruction of infrastructure. God knows how many Israeli refugees there are but at least they have a state they can lean on for support.

This is up there with the stupidest fuckin wars ever. For TWO SOLDIERS. I know, terrible, people were kidnapped. But to start a war against a nation for 2 people who were kidnapped and NOT in that nations name? STUPID war. There is some ulterior motive we dont know about, something going on beneath the scenes for this war. The ultimate motive may even be to provoke Syria into the war so Israel and the US can attack them. Not sure. Just throwing it out there.

The Lebanese government is ineffectual. Hezbollah has too much sway, and, through Hezbollah, Syria has power. And through Syria, Iran has power. All of that is bad. Give the Lebanese control over their own country, and there will be peace. Make the Afghanistan strategy work.

At 7/23/06 11:39 AM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Make the Afghanistan strategy work.

What the hell are you talking about? They ALREADY had a democratically elected government. They ALREADY had a pro-Western government. They ALREADY had a government run by secularists.

Israel is threatening that with their incursion. They are giving Hezbollah talking points to get Syria back into Lebanoon. And now that Iran sees they can fight the USA and Israel with a proxy they probably dont give a crap about, I wouldnt be suprised if their funding and equipment get an upgrade. And Lebanon reverts back to incredible instability.

And Afghanistan working? The place is free of the Taliban but its reverting back to a tribal society. What exactly have we done there in the long run? Jack.

At 7/22/06 02:38 PM, -LazyDrunk- wrote:
Israel would have no grounds to continue the attack if it's representatives were returned to the Israeli outposts from which they were kidnapped. That's the only way to start peace talks, and peace.

Will Israel return the members of the Palestinian cabinet they arrested (AKA kidnapped in all but legal jargon) BEFORE all this started? Besides, a couple of kidnapped soldiers is not reason to reduce civilised areas to rubble - that's covered a couple of posts up.

Shock & Awe doesn't work, get it into your heads. Did it find bin-Laden or stop international terrorism four years ago? Or did it make it easier to find ways to hate the US? Just change a couple of words in that sentence and that's what Israel is doing 150 times a day, from what I see posted here.

If they don't return them, I don't see any reason to hold Israel back anymore. Challenging the Zionist sovereignty has been on the Arab agenda for so long, they WANT this war against Israel. They're willing to fight an unwinnable war against Israel, at peaceful citizens expense. Yeah, keep shooting the dog with a BB gun, then cry once you get bitten. Great way to present yourself to the world.

Bloody hell, do I have to find the links to all the campaigns Israel have waged against their neighbours in the past sixty years again?

"The UN's Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.

Source

"Mr Egeland, the UN's emergency relief chief, described the destruction as "horrific" as he toured the city"

A visibly moved Mr Egeland expressed shock that "block after block" of buildings had been levelled. He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".

It's nice to see the UN standing up against a murderer.

"The BBC's Jim Muir in the southern city of Tyre says there has also been intense bombardment there, striking at least nine civilian vehicles. Some were hit within sight of hospitals where they were trying to take injured people, he says.

Further east, engineers trying to mend impassable roads to allow a UN-escorted aid convoy also came under fire, our correspondent reports. "

And if that doesn't prove Israel targets civilians, well there's 100 sources more. We all know the truth now, they blow up anyone they can to create waves of terror. The only reason they don't just flatten the entire city is that other countries would retaliate.

The BBC and other news organizations have shown pictures and entered articles about Israel targetting ambulances and so on. When are we going to stand up, get a gun and say enough if enough?

At 7/23/06 01:08 PM, Turandot wrote: "The BBC's Jim Muir in the ...........

Speaking of the BBC:

(IsraelNN.com) The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) has admitted that many of the victims of Israeli retaliation in Lebanon are terrorists and not innocent civilians. A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, “It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian.”

http://israelnn.com/news.php3?id=108122

The BBC and other news organizations have shown pictures and entered articles about Israel targetting ambulances and so on. When are we going to stand up, get a gun and say enough if enough?

When a second 9/11 occures?

At 7/23/06 02:01 PM, Dzex wrote:

At 7/23/06 01:08 PM, Turandot wrote:

Speaking of the BBC:

(IsraelNN.com) The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) has admitted that many of the victims of Israeli retaliation in Lebanon are terrorists and not innocent civilians. A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, “It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian.”

Bullcrap.
I can tell you that Hezbollah members have not been hit by the bombs.
They are just trying to justify the unneeded civilian deaths.

At 7/13/06 08:49 AM, Turandot wrote: So far 40 civilians are dead in lebanon, including two families (10 people and 7 people) both whose homes were destroyed in an act of muder by Israel.

Israel deserves what it gets now.

it sounds like you are pro hammas. and we all know how much they care about innocent people getting hurt or killed isreal has every right to keep its country safe from muslim extremist who killout of pure hatred . they need to be stoped the world would be a safer place for everyone when this riligous cowards are stoped. GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ISRAEL.

At 7/23/06 01:02 PM, Turandot wrote: "The UN's Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.

Source

"Mr Egeland, the UN's emergency relief chief, described the destruction as "horrific" as he toured the city"

A visibly moved Mr Egeland expressed shock that "block after block" of buildings had been levelled. He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".

It's nice to see the UN standing up against a murderer.

and the murder of a innocent Israeli citizen before this fighting started in Gaza, the UN didn't stand up for that but was it a murde, yes. And asthe saying goes, all is fair in love and war, Israel is protecting itself even if there is colateral damage it's Hesbollah's fault for it, Im in Toronto and all the Lebanesse people I know are ashamed that HEsbollah has commited these acts and even in the deaths of their countreyment understand that it was a provacotive act, hell my tailor has family stuck there and she thinks HEsbollah sitll desrves it

At 7/23/06 02:44 PM, Visual wrote:

I can tell you that Hezbollah members have not been hit by the bombs.

I can tell you that you don't know more than the people who are actually there.

They are just trying to justify the unneeded civilian deaths.

Who is "They"?
It's a statement by the BBC. What is the BBC trying to justify?

At 7/23/06 02:55 PM, troubles1 wrote:

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ISRAEL.

Thank you, friend.

At 7/23/06 01:35 AM, Visual wrote: Funny how no one gives a thought about why Hezbollah is hitting Israel in the first place.
"Lets call them terrorists and be on our way..."
And we all know that some people are born "terrorists" with nothing better to do than to kill and screw up things, right?

You have no idea of what Israel has done here, and the hate it generated against itself.

There is no argument about why Hezbollah is against Israel. They wish it didn’t exist. They want every Israeli and Jew to die.

No, no one is born a terrorist, but they have become terrorists nonetheless, regardless of what better things they have to do.

At 7/23/06 02:36 AM, Visual wrote:

At 7/23/06 01:48 AM, Dzex wrote: Israel has been attacked by several of it's neighbouring countries on the day it was announced (and continiously since then).

Israel's greatest sin, in it's enemy's eyes, is merely existing.

Good, now tell me why.

Does it matter? Does it make the terrorists any less terrorists?

It is because the Arab leaders incite the people to hate Israel.

At 7/23/06 05:24 AM, Visual wrote: You were closer at first. The rest is just silly crap.
I think there was something where Israel is now, no? However I don't expect it to suddenly vanish now. You took their land, they are pissed about it. So stop acting innocent and not expect them to put up the little resistence they have left. This gets to me the most in this whole conflict.

Why do we keep going in circles? (<<rhetorical.)

Before Israel, the Jews bought all their land legally. Israel itself was created by the U.N., and then justified it's existence by winning its war of survival immediately thereafter. After Israel, Israel won all its land legally in wars.

What are the terrorists resisting? Israel is not trying to take anyone’s land (during war they took land for strategic reasons, and sometimes kept it afterwards, sometimes not), and the only reason the terrorists are ATTACKING is to try to destroy Israel.

At 7/23/06 06:07 AM, Dzex wrote: Blank statements and further fueling of anger by turnadot, expected.

You’re right, Dzex.

@bcdemon talking about UN resolutions to withdraw:

Israel already tried to withdraw from Gaza, and the terrorists used it as a launching pad for rockets. Even so, Israel still has plans to withdraw from the West Bank!

Actually we do know more here, we have different news channels that are not global but can be trusted more than a reporter who happened to "identify" Hezbollah members from civilians. Then it was stated afterwards that they were hard to identify?

By they I mean those who support the actions of Israel. Meaning The U.S and Israel. It's no coincidence that the rest are on lebanon's side.

Israeli and Jew aren't the same, stop making that mistake.
Yeah israel bought its land legally, if by legal you consider holding a gun to your head, offering 10$ and threatening you to sell your land.
Please, you don't know half the story.

Do you think if Israel was created somewhere else, arabs would just team up and attack them? There is a reason they are hated.
But as time went by they were getting slowly accepted, as explained above, deaths and attacks were decreasing. Then they go ahead and bomb the crap of an innocent country. Way to build up your reputation here.
You must've learned that from the american government who feel the need stick their noses in everything (not always bad), then bomb it (bad part) thinking that's how you fix things and build relationships.

Saudis urge Bush to seek Lebanon ceasefire

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Saudi Arabian officials pressed President George W. Bush on Sunday to agree to an immediate ceasefire to the conflict in southern Lebanon.

Bush has resisted calling for an immediate ceasefire, saying Israel has a right to defend itself and that a cessation of hostilities must address the root causes of the conflict, such as Hizbollah's attacks on Israel
I thought the Arab world was behind Israels actions?

*sigh* THIS is why I dont like the support the USA gives Israel. Because the USA will start to recieve heat from this crap, like we now are.

All this is doing is creating new suicide bombers, new people that want the destruction of America and Israel, all because we refuse to hold Israel accountable for any of its actions. Fuckin bullshit.

Damn US is led by idiots.

And Israel is led by idiots. Just honestly look at it for a second. Israelis, can you honestly say this will do anything positive for your country? I know you want to defend your countries actions, I can feel you for that. But what is this doing for your country? Just turn the corner, please, see that your leaders actions are ensuring that when you are adults with jobs and running the country, the situation will be the same as it was 50 years ago, with everyone wanting to blow eachother up there.

At 7/23/06 02:55 PM, troubles1 wrote:

::it sounds like you are pro hammas. and we all know how much they care about innocent people getting hurt or killed isreal has every right to keep its country safe from muslim extremist who killout of pure hatred . they need to be stoped the world would be a safer place for everyone when this riligous cowards are stoped. GOD BLESS AMERICA and ISRAEL.

You relgious nut. why can't God bless Lebanon or Paleststine?
Didn't god love everyone?

At 7/23/06 04:53 PM, Visual wrote: Please, you don't know half the story.

You wanna tell me your version?

At 7/13/06 08:49 AM, Turandot wrote: So far 40 civilians are dead in lebanon, including two families (10 people and 7 people) both whose homes were destroyed in an act of muder by Israel.

Israel deserves what it gets now.

How about we do what we should've done a long time ago and build a mile high wall around the Middle East, then in about 30, 40 years open the door and see who comes out. It's simple, we won't have to worry about our troops and we won't receive the 'startling images' that will tear the souls out of our children

At 7/23/06 05:06 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

I tend to agree with FAB's POV on this issue.

*sigh* THIS is why I dont like the support the USA gives Israel. Because the USA will start to recieve heat from this crap, like we now are.

Yes. The USA is an independent nation, responsible for it's own actions - Israel holds the exact same amount of accountability. Israel is an independent nation fully capable of being held accountable for it's own actions in this conflict.

If the US has voiced an opinion that you tend to disagree with, act upon that. But don't hold the US responsible for stopping this conflict. That is not their responsibility.

However, due to the massive amounts of weaponry and defense technologies that has been sold to Israel by the US, the US gets the heat to try to 'control' Israel whenever they do some shit the world doesn't like. 'Hey, US, you have a good relationship with Israel - go act like a parent, and stop them!'

Because of the US's influence, people sometimes look to them to individually do something. Let the world opinion and voice speak for a change.

Israel, and Israel alone, should be held accountable their own actions.

Just turn the corner, please, see that your leaders actions are ensuring that when you are adults with jobs and running the country, the situation will be the same as it was 50 years ago, with everyone wanting to blow eachother up there.

Yes. I believe that Israel is doing exactly what Hezbollah wanted them to do - make a huge scene, and be terribly incited to get revenge. Really, this whole conflict stinks of being untactful, and lack of thought for what is going to happen after the conflict ends.

Those civilians who lost their family members, and even those just hearing of the losses - are going to be terribly pissed off at Israel.

And so, the cycle of hate continues.

At 7/23/06 03:37 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: @bcdemon talking about UN resolutions to withdraw:

Israel already tried to withdraw from Gaza, and the terrorists used it as a launching pad for rockets. Even so, Israel still has plans to withdraw from the West Bank!

Plans? The UN Resolutions regarding Israels occupation and aggression date back almost 40 years. Don't give me shit about plans... Like I said, if they want anyone else to acknowledge UN Resolutions (1559 for instance), they should try to acknowledge one themselves.

I find it sad how simple it is for Hezbollah to end the IDF's advancement into Lebanon simply by returning the two kidnapped soldiers and yet they continue to fire their rockets into Israel. All the Lebanese who say, "Oh but Hezbollah has helped us so much, they care so much for us and they will make everything better, it's Israel who are the bad guys!" don't realize that Hezbollah is the only reason Israel must continue to bomb Hezbollah facilities and any facility tied to Hezbollah in their country. Shows how "caring" Hezbollah really is. All the blame for this situation points to Hezbollah and the only way to end it is to end Hezbollah using force if necessary. And apparently, it is necessary due to Hezbollah’s unwillingness to cooperate.