Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 7/21/06 04:44 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Using rockets against Israeli civillians IS collective punishment. So is striking Israeli hospitals.

There’s is a difference between terrorist instigated collective punishment and Government sanctioned collective punishment.

At 7/21/06 04:46 PM, superlunk wrote:

It is true that the IDF would not waste such an expensive weapon.
Whatever the case, civilians are dying and it needs to be stopped on both sides.

So, you think Israel ought to stop defending itself?

Hell, a LAND attack will cost less civillian lives. So let's GO GO GO!

I would classify the 20,000 Israeli soldiers marching into South Lebanon as a full scale land invasion.

That it is. But there is a reason, an obvious one, and it's also supported by UN Resolution 1559. So...yeah, it's more than justified.

This argument is over.

Hezbollah has Fajir-3 missiles. FTW.

This cracked me up. Im not sure if its trying to justify an invasion or its a backhanded attack on those claims that Hezbollah has been reduced by more than 50% or something like that.

The UN secretary-general urged Israel and Hezbollah to stop the violence and "prevent further loss of innocent life and the infliction of further suffering".

He condemned Hezbollah for its actions that "hold an entire nation hostage" and called Israel's response "excessive".
The UN is not against Israel. It is against BOTH Hezbollahs and Israels actions.

This part is ridiculous, however.

But Israel's UN ambassador, Dan Gillerman, told reporters after Annan's speech that there would be no ceasefire.

"We will do whatever is necessary," he said. "We have no timeline. The first thing that must be addressed is cessation of terror before we even talk about cessation of hostilities."

Considering this, however, it is just pathetic. Both sides are playing dice with peoples lives and are in a giant game of chicken. Neither side is smart enough to pull the plug on the violence.

At 7/21/06 04:44 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Using rockets against Israeli civillians IS collective punishment. So is striking Israeli hospitals.

No one is arguing that. No one.

At 7/21/06 04:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Hell, a LAND attack will cost less civillian lives. So let's GO GO GO!

Mackid, I really wish you would stop making truths up. There is nothing to justify that claim or even make it believable.

That it is. But there is a reason, an obvious one, and it's also supported by UN Resolution 1559. So...yeah, it's more than justified.

Since when does Resolution 1559 support an overland invasion by Israel to disarm Hezbollah?

At 7/21/06 04:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: That it is. But there is a reason, an obvious one, and it's also supported by UN Resolution 1559. So...yeah, it's more than justified.

Hell, if israel is going to totally ignore UN SC Resolutions passed againts them, why should Hezbullah comply to UN SC R-1559?

And in other news, Israel bombs a UN outpost in Israel. Obviously Israel said it was a Hezbullah rocket that hit the post, but a UN spokesperson said it was an Israeli artillery shell.

At 7/21/06 02:32 PM, superlunk wrote:

At 7/21/06 01:05 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote:

At 7/21/06 01:31 PM, NoF wrote:

i did get the chance to read about your disscussion about the damage a katyusha can cause
well this is a building in Haifa that was hit by a katyusha

I see. Although that damage is somewhat extensive, I think you will agree that this is much worse. These are civilian buildings in Lebanon that were destroyed by Israeli forces.

\
i presented pictures of the damage in israel to show the one who said the katyushas cannot cause any serious damage, thet they do.

At 7/21/06 06:03 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: Both sides are playing dice with peoples lives and are in a giant game of chicken. Neither side is smart enough to pull the plug on the violence.

The Hezbollah will never stop firing these rockets and missiles towards us even if we stopped. Maybe it won't start right away, but it will gain it's strength again and after a few years, or even less, it will kidnap more soldiers and fire more missiles. Furthermore, I am not sure that iran even cares about the Lebanese civillians, it won't let the Hezbollah stop.

Never the less, if we stopped and agreed to their terms of releasing prisoners, the Hezbollah will consider this as a victory. Even if the Hezbollah won't kidnap more soldiers right after that, the other terror organization, such as the Jihad and the Hamas (which still has one of our soldiers BTW) will.

If we decided that we should get in south Lebanon, it is probably because our generals think that we have done anything we can from air. We are not trying to conquer them, but to attack hezbollah targets and Hezbollah "soldiers". Also, from ground it will be much easier not to kill civillians, considering the fact that we asked them to leave days ago. That is, of course, unless the Hezbollah is willing to sacrifice the Lebanese civillians who stayed, which is completely their fault.

Just as a BTW comment, the Hezbollah is hiding in underground bunkers which the Lebanese government shouldn't have let them build. This is one of the many reasons Lebanon is responsible for the Hezbollah gaining power in it's wn territory. Now, however, it seems like it is too late and that the Lebanese government, by itself, can do nothing against the Hezbollah. It needs a big army to help it get her out of their country (and earth), since they haven't asked for any help from USA or France or whatever, we stood up to help them.

I'm kindda geting sick and tires of this disscussion.
We say: It was Lebanon's government's job to disarm Hezbollah and stop the attacks against israel, they didn't and now it became our job.
So u say "hey, they couldn't stop it"
Then we say "ok, so we must do it"
And then u all raise and say "no, but u can't bomb stuff etc."

So just ones again: It was Lebanon's governmen that should have stoped Hezbollah with it's army, from inside of Lebanon. that could have be done peacfully without losing so much innocent lifes.
They didn't do it and now we must do it. but because we can't let our army in Lebanon, we must do it from the air. It means there WILL be innocent lifes lost. but it it N-O-T our fucking fault!

for the one who replied to my claim about september 11th events: again, its not the 2 soldiers we're fighting for. That's just what broke us... we lost a lot more then 3000 people for terror. We are getting sick and tired of that... Now it's time to put a stop for it and say "Every man that will hurt israel/israeli citizan/israeli soldier will be punnished, every nation that those attacks will come from it's territory will be punished, because it was it's job to prevent it.

sorry, this is going arround in circles... so i quit this pointless discussion.
nice talking to u guys.

The amount of retards in this thread is amazing.
Shayel is a perfect exemple, please refrain from posting anymore.

I currently live in lebanon, in the northern part.
Call me biased or whatnot but israel had no right to attack this country like that.
We were already in debt and it is alot worst now. Israel wants to ruin us because your bombings have barely done any harm to hezbollah.
You could've fought them by other means, not everyone in lebanon supports them and alot actually hate them. But you had to bomb the whole country, civilian areas, hoping to hit one who will be patiently waiting to die in his house. Yeah right.

On the other hand you can target civilians pretty well. Infrastructures that have nothing to do with hezbollah have been hit. Right now cell phones don't work because 3 stations around lebanon have been bombed including one near us in the north, far far from hezbollah...

Oh and israeli ground attacks are going very well. For us.
The tanks are being destroyed as soon as they reach the border. Way to suck with superior technologie when we have the slightest chance to fight back.

At 7/21/06 11:28 AM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: But, if Israel does use force, and terrorists know that they will be viciously attacked for attacking Israel, they may hesitate.

No, Hezbollah wanted Israel to attack viciously. The Lebanese people are bound to view the Israelis as the aggressors and while their mostly anti-Syrian government sits by idly the Hezbollah is fighting "back". Their support among the common man is increasing and any Katyusha launcher that's destroyed will only be compensated with another purchase in the future.

This was never about prisoners, I think the main goal of Hezbollah was to get the Syrian army to return to the country as a stabilising force but the more Lebanese civilians die the more popular support they'll gain. Whatever force the Israelis resort to should only be used if the negative consequences for non-combatants is minimal. Dropping flyers telling people to flee while bombing the roads that people are supposed to use when they flee is sure to cause distress which will be sure to affect the opinion these people have of Israel and the Hezbollah in the future.

Giving populations aid and service, as someone suggested, is fine, but not in the midst of a terrorist attack.

The terrorist attack has already happened and the ensuing conflict could theoretically last for months, the individual people are not responsible for Hezbollah's actions and should therefore not be allowed to rot.

At 7/21/06 06:03 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: Considering this, however, it is just pathetic. Both sides are playing dice with peoples lives and are in a giant game of chicken. Neither side is smart enough to pull the plug on the violence.

I believe that the problem is this: Israel could stop attacking, but Hezbollah would continue. On the other hand, if Hezbollah stopped attacking, then Israel would too. Therefore, it is really only possible for Hezbollah to stop the violence. Since they will not however, I do not see the validity of saying "both sides need to stop NOW" and using that comment to hammer Israel. That power belongs to Hezbollah alone.

At 7/21/06 06:24 PM, bcdemon wrote: Hell, if israel is going to totally ignore UN SC Resolutions passed againts them, why should Hezbullah comply to UN SC R-1559?

Because if they did, Hezbollah would continue to violate it. Yet, if Hezbollah complied, then Israel would start complying also. That is why Hezbollah should comply with it, and NOT Israel.

At 7/22/06 07:46 AM, Visual wrote: I currently live in lebanon, in the northern part.
Call me biased or whatnot but israel had no right to attack this country like that.

Funny thing is, this guy actually made a lot of sense and came off as less biased than alot of people posting, particular the topic starter.

The proportion of the bodycount (well, this is the one on last night's Channel 4 News) is alarming:

347 dead
317 Lebanese
30 Israeli
27 military

So, that either means 320 Lebanese civillians have been indiscriminatly killed, or the Lebanese somehow have managed to hit Israeli military figures almost every single time.

Which one do you think is most likely?

At 7/22/06 09:53 AM, D2KVirus wrote: The proportion of the bodycount (well, this is the one on last night's Channel 4 News) is alarming:

347 dead
317 Lebanese
30 Israeli
27 military

So, that either means 320 Lebanese civillians have been indiscriminatly killed, or the Lebanese somehow have managed to hit Israeli military figures almost every single time.

Which one do you think is most likely?

No, because the two sides are not unloading equal firepower. The reason is that Israel has hitting Hezbollah with way more firepower, that and Israel does not place its fighters around civilians to purposely raise the body count of innocents. Plus, I want to see your source that says all 317 Lebanese were civilians.

At 7/22/06 09:59 AM, Wyrlum wrote: Plus, I want to see your source that says all 317 Lebanese were civilians.

By late afternoon, some 327 civilians had died in Lebanon, compared with 34 Israelis.
At least 345 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed in Israeli airstrikes.
The overall civilian death toll from the Israeli onslaught in Lebanon since last Wednesday reached 195, in addition to 12 soldiers, officials said. (July 17th)
The figures in Lebanon now show 340 civilian dead, over 1,100 wounded and nearly 1 million displaced.
Israeli attacks had killed at least 292 civilians in Lebanon, while Hizbullah rockets had killed 13 noncombatants in the Jewish state.

And the kicker.

UN Human Rights Commissioner warns of war crimes in Lebanon.

"Well over 300 people have been killed and thousands injured—many of them children."

UN warning of Mid-East war crimes.

"About 300 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed in the violence. Thirty Israelis, including 15 civilians, have also been killed."

At 7/22/06 09:59 AM, Wyrlum wrote:
Plus, I want to see your source that says all 317 Lebanese were civilians.

From today's Guardian:

Yesterday's casualties

Lebanese
Yesterday:
Deaths 8

Since outbreak:
Military 66
Civilians 345
Wounded +1000

Israeli
Yesterday:
Military 4
Wounded Civilians 15

Since outbreak:
Military 15
Civilians 19
Wounded 300+

That says the Lebanese batting average is either:
A.) Better.
B.) Less indiscriminate at who they're shooting at.

Still, I guess I was wrong if it's actually 345 civillians, aren't I?

At 7/21/06 08:15 PM, Lidov wrote: The Hezbollah will never stop firing these rockets and missiles towards us even if we stopped.

I would just like to remind you, both Israel and Hezbollah had a very large hand in the escalation. Both agreed to step up the violence and now both sides will not stop.

That is the problem with violence. It sets a train in motion that is unstoppable. Once it gets going, it gains more and more momentum until it gets to the point where neither side can control it or its direction.

Just as a BTW comment, the Hezbollah is hiding in underground bunkers which the Lebanese government shouldn't have let them build.

Bro, I think we have already illustrated Lebanon cannot control itself for a number of reasons. And can you even prove the Lebanese government knew they were there?

This is one of the many reasons Lebanon is responsible for the Hezbollah gaining power in it's wn territory.

Thats ridiculous. Its their fault religious extremism exists in their borders. Not the civil war that was basically proxies from Israel/USA and Syria/Iran fighting eachother? Not the crap conditions their country is in? Not the weak central government? Syrian and Israeli continued involvement in their inner politics?

Thats ridiculous on so many levels.

It needs a big army to help it get her out of their country (and earth), since they haven't asked for any help from USA or France or whatever, we stood up to help them.

The problem is, NO ONE asked for Israels help. NO ONE wants Israels help. And Israel is in no way helping the Lebanese by bombing craploads of infrastructure, army instalations, and not cooperating or listening to Siniora/Lahoud in any way, shape or form. Or the UN and the world community for that matter. Your not going to claim the G8 and EU are filled with anti-semitic and pro Palestinian/Lebanon/whatever leaders now, are you?

Do you honestly believe you are doing them a favor?

At 7/22/06 04:30 AM, Shayel wrote: We say: It was Lebanon's government's job to disarm Hezbollah and stop the attacks against israel, they didn't and now it became our job.

Lets make this simple. ISRAELS TACTICS WILL NOT WORK. There will be missles on the border the second you withrdaw. And Hezbollah will be more powerful and have a much more expanded base to boot. Why? ISRAEL GENERATED TREMENDOUS INSTABILITY IN LEBANON. Tremendous.

we lost a lot more then 3000 people for terror.

Umm, no. I am almost positive you havent from terrorism alone. And your comparison is still shit, 2 soldiers to 3000 dead people and billions and billions in damage.

At 7/22/06 12:17 PM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 7/22/06 09:59 AM, Wyrlum wrote:
Plus, I want to see your source that says all 317 Lebanese were civilians.

From today's Guardian:

Yesterday's casualties

Lebanese
Yesterday:
Deaths 8

Since outbreak:
Military 66
Civilians 345
Wounded +1000

Israeli
Yesterday:
Military 4
Wounded Civilians 15

Since outbreak:
Military 15
Civilians 19
Wounded 300+

That says the Lebanese batting average is either:
A.) Better.
B.) Less indiscriminate at who they're shooting at.

Still, I guess I was wrong if it's actually 345 civillians, aren't I?

Israel simply has the better-functioning government. Inciting acts of war on behalf of a fledgling state against a regional power is . . . suspect at best.

Israel would have no grounds to continue the attack if it's representatives were returned to the Israeli outposts from which they were kidnapped. That's the only way to start peace talks, and peace.

If they don't return them, I don't see any reason to hold Israel back anymore. Challenging the Zionist sovereignty has been on the Arab agenda for so long, they WANT this war against Israel. They're willing to fight an unwinnable war against Israel, at peaceful citizens expense. Yeah, keep shooting the dog with a BB gun, then cry once you get bitten. Great way to present yourself to the world.

Not dangoures?
O.K

It's "just" killed people, nothing serious...

You really don't know what happening
It's sad .....

Commanucation can be so nusty and full at lies

I didn't beleive t's like that but now I see this distortion of the realety

And if it was worse - the risk and the damage... we don't really want to think about that

At 7/22/06 02:28 PM, FAB0L0US wrote: The problem is, NO ONE asked for Israels help. NO ONE wants Israels help.

We need to get the Hezbollah out because it is bombing us, since they didn't ask for anyone's help from their own will, we had to do something. We can't just sit in our homes and get bombed by the Hezbollah while the Lebanese govt. does nothing to stop it. They could have asked for help on the first days and finish it, but they didn't, since it is not going to be stopped by itself, we need to stop it.

At 7/22/06 12:17 PM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 7/22/06 09:59 AM, Wyrlum wrote:
Plus, I want to see your source that says all 317 Lebanese were civilians.

From today's Guardian:

Yesterday's casualties

Lebanese
Yesterday:
Deaths 8

Since outbreak:
Military 66
Civilians 345
Wounded +1000

Israeli
Yesterday:
Military 4
Wounded Civilians 15

Since outbreak:
Military 15
Civilians 19
Wounded 300+

That says the Lebanese batting average is either:
A.) Better.
B.) Less indiscriminate at who they're shooting at.

Batting average? You don’t make a batting average out of home runs hit, but out of homes runs hit per at bat! Israel shoots 150 missiles in Lebanon a day, the fact is that they have killed at most 1 civilian every 3 missiles. Israel shoots at Hesbollah targets, but there is no non-civilian Hesbollah target, because Hesbollah launches missiles from civilian areas.

At 7/22/06 06:18 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote: Batting average? You don’t make a batting average out of home runs hit, but out of homes runs hit per at bat! Israel shoots 150 missiles in Lebanon a day, the fact is that they have killed at most 1 civilian every 3 missiles. Israel shoots at Hesbollah targets, but there is no non-civilian Hesbollah target, because Hesbollah launches missiles from civilian areas.

Even the Israeli army says that they are hiding in the southern sparselands, and consider them to be potentially dangerous because they know the terrain so well, and are 'dug in'. They know fully what to expect of such of group, certainly because of their experience during the 12-year occupation of Lebanon in the 80's.

The claims of the Israeli army are that figureheads, supporters, and stockpiles of weapons are being stored in the destroyed buildings, and to prevent additional supplies from arriving.

And how do you know that '150 missiles a day' are being sent into Lebanon? Warplanes, and ballistic shell artillery has been used well throughout the offensive.

And does the amount of missiles justify the civilian deaths?

"Well, we sent a billion of those firecrackers at Lebanon - and nobody died then! Add that to the total missiles we fired, and only 1 person dies for every 30 million missiles!'

At 7/22/06 06:33 PM, RedScorpion wrote: And does the amount of missiles justify the civilian deaths?

Well, obviously no civilian deaths is the optimal amount, but when it is time to attack Hesbollah, and all you can do is minimize the deaths, some will die.

The short answer is yes, with the "if" clause: if those targets being missiled are worthy targets and every effort is made to get civilians out of the way.

I’m not sure what your point is with that post, but I think Israel is doing a good job of reducing civilian deaths. They aren’t perfect.

In counter-terror situations, it is far too difficult to identify, from BODIES, who is a civillian and who is not.

Case in point, the second Intifada. More than 20% of Palestinan casualties couldn't be identified. However, the majority, regardless, were terrorists. FTW.

The best way I've heard this whole situation described is like this:

This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

Isreal is out of control. I do agree they can't just take this, but they can't go around levling civillian facilities.

This is like how the American forces are in Afghanistan, destroying whole villages because of a rumour that a suspected terrorist is in town, but that's another rant.

At 7/22/06 08:58 PM, Wes_is_king wrote: This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

I don't really think so. It's more like if a Canadian terrorist group had launched missiles at New York City and port cities as well as Miami, and then we said: "stop it," but did nothing. Then, a patrol of soldiers is kidnapped and we bomb Canadian military facilities as well as their known guerilla forces' locations in cities. Then the Canadians say: "HEY! Don't attack our 'civillians!'"

This is like how the American forces are in Afghanistan, destroying whole villages because of a rumour that a suspected terrorist is in town, but that's another rant.

Since when does that HAPPEN!?

In both cases, however, there's justification. The US had the responsibility to invade Afghanistan, and Israel has the responsibility to invade Lebanon.

At 7/22/06 08:58 PM, Wes_is_king wrote: The best way I've heard this whole situation described is like this:

This is the same as if a terrorist from Canada went into the states, kidnapped an American cop and drove back to Canada and the US retaliated by bombing the shit out of Canadian cities.

Isreal is out of control. I do agree they can't just take this, but they can't go around levling civillian facilities.

This is like how the American forces are in Afghanistan, destroying whole villages because of a rumour that a suspected terrorist is in town, but that's another rant.

Hmmm, your comparison has some flaws.

1) To make your comparison more analogous, it should be not one terrorist, but many terrorists from which the kidnappers were merely a part of.

2) To make your comparison more analogous, you should specify that this group of terrorists had been bombing American cities with short range rockets, and always increasing in range. Actually, since America is so much bigger than Israel, these Canadian terrorists should have rockets that are semi-long range.

3) To make your comparison more analogous you should have a soldier be kidnapped instead of a cop.

4) To make your comparison more analogous you should specify that these terrorists had been ordered by the UN to disband 6 years ago, and that Canada had taken no action to help this. You didn’t exclude that fact, but you give the impression that the terrorist in your comparison sprang out of nowhere.

5) To make your comparison more analogous, you should specify that Canada was still doing nothing, even after the attacks and kidnapping.

6) To make your comparison more analogous, you should include the fact that Canada’s government includes terrorists on it. (Now that I think of it, I don’t you if you choosing Canada was that analogous either)

7) To make your comparison more analogous, you should acknowledge that the terrorists have infiltrated civilian cities, and are firing their rockets from the homes of civilians who sympathize with them.

8) To make your comparison more analogous, you should mention how the terrorists are probably trying to get the kidnapped cop/soldier out of the country into….um…..Greenland, and that the terrorists are definitely getting weapons from Greenland. And Greenland is developing a nuclear missile and denies the right of the U.S. to exist.

But hey man, don’t worry, analogies are tough. Keep trying and you’ll find one that actually fits.

Funny how no one gives a thought about why Hezbollah is hitting Israel in the first place.
"Lets call them terrorists and be on our way..."
And we all know that some people are born "terrorists" with nothing better to do than to kill and screw up things, right?

You have no idea of what Israel has done here, and the hate it generated against itself.

At 7/23/06 01:35 AM, Visual wrote: Funny how no one gives a thought about why Hezbollah is hitting Israel in the first place.
...
You have no idea of what Israel has done here, and the hate it generated against itself.

Israel has been attacked by several of it's neighbouring countries on the day it was announced (and continiously since then).

Israel's greatest sin, in it's enemy's eyes, is merely existing.

At 7/23/06 01:48 AM, Dzex wrote: Israel has been attacked by several of it's neighbouring countries on the day it was announced (and continiously since then).

Israel's greatest sin, in it's enemy's eyes, is merely existing.

Good, now tell me why.

If you have Google Earth, this is worth a download:
http://www.gearthblo..israellebanon_c.html

"shows the locations of the military actions based on news reports. Each placemark contains details on the action which occurred at the location and the casualties or damage resulting, and allows you to view the aerial photos and see what it looked like before the conflict."

At 7/23/06 02:36 AM, Visual wrote:

At 7/23/06 01:48 AM, Dzex wrote: Israel's greatest sin, in it's enemy's eyes, is merely existing.

Good, now tell me why.

Because they don't have enough space in the Middle East? right? (wrong.)
Perhaps they don't like Jewish people and wanted to finish what Hitler started?
Or maybe because of the century long conflict between the Israelites and arabs?

It doesn't matter why. They wouldn't give peace a chance from the very beginning.