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At 7/19/06 02:05 AM, Turandot wrote: In the Rape of Nanjing the Japanese raped over 17,000 under 14 year olds,many between 6 and 10. They were mostly shot afterwards. The Japanese secret weapons unit (Wiki / Google for it as I am going to work) experimented with gas and nerve agents and living dissections on women and children/

Yeah, that's bad alright. But Mengele used to inject chemicals into the eyes of children just for the fun of it. They also performed surgeries of Jews without the aid of any anisthetic; he injected acid into the uterus's of women and I'm not even going to mention what he did to mens' parts. One time he ran out of poison gas for Jews, so he threw a tantrum and ordered the guards to fill a trench with petroleum; then he burned them alive. Those who tried to crawl out of the trench were kicked back in by German guards.

At 7/19/06 02:51 AM, Wyrlum wrote:

At 7/19/06 02:05 AM, Turandot wrote: In the Rape of Nanjing the Japanese raped over 17,000 under 14 year olds,many between 6 and 10. They were mostly shot afterwards. The Japanese secret weapons unit (Wiki / Google for it as I am going to work) experimented with gas and nerve agents and living dissections on women and children/

Yeah, that's bad alright. But Mengele used to inject chemicals into the eyes of children just for the fun of it. They also performed surgeries of Jews without the aid of any anisthetic; he injected acid into the uterus's of women and I'm not even going to mention what he did to mens' parts. One time he ran out of poison gas for Jews, so he threw a tantrum and ordered the guards to fill a trench with petroleum; then he burned them alive. Those who tried to crawl out of the trench were kicked back in by German guards.

*shrug* Sounds the same to me!

But anyway, not important, both are AWFUl crimes against humanity much worse than anything currently happening in Israel and Palestine.

However, I do not like where things are NOW going with America trying to draw attention away from Israel's violations by drawing in either Iran or Syria. They are playing with fire even if Syria / Iran is slightly invoved, if America provokes them too much what is it going to do if Syria / Iran attacks Israel? Open up another military front? Can it afford to?

Nuke them? I think not *_* (well GB doesn't think too much... So who knows)

America and Israel should not be moving their weapon sights towards Iran or Syria because that is more than they can chew. Israel could finish it's operations in Lebanon (although it'll never stop the rockets) and withdraw in a week or so. Any longer than that, or any further ground invasion and the whole region is probably past the brink.

Thoughts?

My last thought on the Japanese actions in WWII is this.

I think on the whole they were incredibly more brutal and terrible than the Germans. You have to remember, their war started a good decade before the Germans and NOTHING was sacred to them. Whether it was civilians, POW's, their own men, it didnt matter. They were just a brual, thuggish army filled with a bunch of under educated peasants that were a throwback to the armies of the middle ages. They killed, slaughtered, pillaged, raped, killed, tortured EVERYONE and EVERYTHING not Japanese. Its honestly a suprise to me any of our POW's survived the damn war.

Hell, the Germans were eugenics and I am not excusing their actions, but at least they THOUGHT they had a reason for their killings. The Japanese just killed.

I might just be saying this because I am American and they are Japanese and they generally treated our soldiers like shit, but I really think they were worse. Not that it matters, qualifiying which genocidal murdering force is worse, but thats my take.

At 7/19/06 03:44 AM, Turandot wrote: However, I do not like where things are NOW going with America trying to draw attention away from Israel's violations by drawing in either Iran or Syria. They are playing with fire even if Syria / Iran is slightly invoved, if America provokes them too much what is it going to do if Syria / Iran attacks Israel? Open up another military front? Can it afford to?

Nuke them? I think not *_* (well GB doesn't think too much... So who knows)

America and Israel should not be moving their weapon sights towards Iran or Syria because that is more than they can chew. Israel could finish it's operations in Lebanon (although it'll never stop the rockets) and withdraw in a week or so. Any longer than that, or any further ground invasion and the whole region is probably past the brink.

Thoughts?

America could assist Israel when things go out of hand, but then they'd have to give up the Iraqi war(which isn't a bad thing) I think that Israel could fight a war against syria, they have one of the most powerfull army on Earth(like i said before).
But i'm afraid that many arabian countries would join the fight and attack Israel, and then it could be the cause of WW3!
Maybe it would mean the beginning of the apocalypse!(but i'm not sure about that lol)

I think also that if America draws the attention to syria, it wouldn't cause a war.
Syria and Iran are pussies, if they had the guts they would have whiped Israel of the face of the earth a long time ago(or atleast fight them!)

At 7/18/06 03:12 PM, EcKo_WR wrote:

Until they started terrorist groups like the stern gang,attacked arabs,took part in genocides.

oh god....-any way to back that up?...do you know the meaning of genocide...

The Arab armies came to the aid of their bretheren who were being taken advantage of and were being slowly pushed out of their land by the arriving Jews from Europe.

HAHA!-the jews arrived at their given land-not the arabian ones...-WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM!?..the arabs wanted to destroy israel..simple as that-

america's military goods sure did come in hady for the Israelis actually.the newly founded nation already found itslef with american supplied jets,guns,hardware.It's no wonder why Israeli jets blew up the arab armies poorly equipped,poorly trained soldiers.

you mean israel purchased some minor weaponry from US -ZOMG! @ teh scandelz!(the us objected the foundation of israel in the first place..anyway..-only the support of the ussr caused it to vote pro in the un vote-i'm not even sure what you say is true...concerning your other false info..)
israel recieved no aid from anyone....(during the war of independence..)-would it have been preferable NOT to buy guns?-later france was the only one to give any assistance to israel BY SELLING IT WEAPONRY...those economical exchanges are purely evil..<_<
why were israeli more trained???-my grandfather came off the boat and was given a weapon...-the palestinians yelled a lot-but most stayed home and prefered not to fight..-while every jew joined the fight on our side(they had to-they knew of what the arabs will do if they won the war..)

The leaders probably wanted the arabs to stay so they would act as a buffer to the arab armies.That way arabs would be caught in the crossfire.Israeli settlers took part in raping arabs of their land and women.Many Israeli terror groups formed during the formation of Israel.Many of the leaders of those terror groups who had murdered went on to become the heads of state in Israel.

no uneducated specualtion-the jewish leaders were very mild in their views -they were ALL liberitarian socialists....-and highly objected inhuman deeds..-you just display your prejudice against israel and your obvious lack of knowledge..
you have no proof of any "rape" (both of land or women-the current settlers may be jerks -but they don't rape anyone...NOT ONCE-WAYYY too religious...)
again stop listening to nasralla...those "terrorists" (execpt of the lehi..-those people wew actually terrorists..-and kinda insane)-a.attacked military or govenmental targets only(no arabs at all-just brits..-unless attacked first-this policy was known as "close borders protection") b. WARNED the target locations by anonymous phone calls(see the king david hotel bombings...) before the acts -if civilians were at the location.....
you FAIL(your knowledge at least..)

I would love a source.And be thankful that when Muslims gained control of Palestine in the 700s that they showed generousity and didn't butcher you like the Crusaders.Thats atleast 1100 years of peace between Muslims and Jews.Now the magority of the Jews in Tel Aviv easily could have been crushed by the Arabs who held the land hundreds of years ago.

from the gaining of control to the 19th century-A LOT HAS HAPPENED-the ottoman empire conquests the napoleon campaigns and a lot more has occued since then...-palestine in the 19th century was literally a wasteland...-the jewish settlement and the british conquest(which aided underground jewish groups operating against the ottomans...)-revived the entire land....-i don't give sources to such important info(which you need when coming to debate the topic)-from an online source..again take some time and go to the library(like i do when researching material..)

or is it just you ?

No,not really.

YEP..-DID YOU HEAR ANYONE ELSE HERE GIVE INFORMATION REMOTELY AS FALSE AS YOU?(ahah-caps =P)

At 7/18/06 03:36 PM, EcKo_WR wrote:

At 7/18/06 03:27 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

At 7/18/06 02:20 PM, EcKo_WR wrote:

Zionism diplaced hundreds of thousands of Arabs living in Palestine.

Oh, it's not like the Arab states told their brethren to leave... No, of COURSE not.

Read a bit before you make statements like that.

I read alot especially about early Jewish terrorist groups such as Igfun.The stern gang.It only makes sense that the terorist leaders of these groups are now heads of state of the Israeli government.

that's irony at it's finest...-you read a lot about the "igfun"?---let me just HAHAHAHHAHAHA....
and the "stern gang"-again HAHAHAHAHAHAH (i hope to god you mean the lehi-if not i'll add more h's a A's)

At 7/18/06 05:14 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

At 7/18/06 03:06 PM, Dragon_Smaug wrote:

To add to 4aces, Egypt ceded Gaza to Israel. Legally, Israel could do whatever it wants with it, you should all be very happy Israel is being smart and trying to withdraw from it.

Actually, it's quite stupid in terms of security to withdraw. If we withdraw from gaza, the arabs will think that we can be PUSHED.

At 7/18/06 02:27 PM, EcKo_WR wrote:

It's the tactics they use that give them a bad name.

As if the tactics that the Arabs use are better? The Israeli tactics aree measured and just. Arab tactics give money to terrorists. Iran and Hezbollah. That's 1 TYPICAL EXAMPLE.

oh "legally"-RIGGGHHTTT.... -so that's why the israeli high court of justice went so strongly against it.....-let me ask you this *ahem*
what is the legal justification of keeping control in the territories AFTER the defeat of egypt and lebanon?-i do not see it....
begin(though a great man)-acted like an idiot("they are not occupied -they are liberated"..<_<)...he should have listened to ben guryon when he said to get the hell out of there as soon as possible..

do not take me and my country with you in comparison to the terrorist groups...-you may not feel we shoud be above them,i however, do..

At 7/19/06 06:36 AM, 4aces wrote:

::blah blah blah

What the hell you have time to post oon Newgroudns every 3 seconds, therefore u dont have it that bad. I dont think the lebaonese or Palestinians have that luxury.

At 7/19/06 06:47 AM, gooze_bump wrote:

At 7/19/06 06:36 AM, 4aces wrote:

blah blah blah

What the hell you have time to post oon Newgroudns every 3 seconds, therefore u dont have it that bad. I dont think the lebaonese or Palestinians have that luxury.

Your point is......what? That their living conditions are worse? What does that have to do with anything?

At 7/19/06 03:44 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/19/06 02:51 AM, Wyrlum wrote:

At 7/19/06 02:05 AM, Turandot wrote: In the Rape of Nanjing the Japanese raped over 17,000 under 14 year olds,many between 6 and 10. They were mostly shot afterwards. The Japanese secret weapons unit (Wiki / Google for it as I am going to work) experimented with gas and nerve agents and living dissections on women and children/

Yeah, that's bad alright. But Mengele used to inject chemicals into the eyes of children just for the fun of it. They also performed surgeries of Jews without the aid of any anisthetic; he injected acid into the uterus's of women and I'm not even going to mention what he did to mens' parts. One time he ran out of poison gas for Jews, so he threw a tantrum and ordered the guards to fill a trench with petroleum; then he burned them alive. Those who tried to crawl out of the trench were kicked back in by German guards.

*shrug* Sounds the same to me!

But anyway, not important, both are AWFUl crimes against humanity much worse than anything currently happening in Israel and Palestine.

Yeah, I don't care much for comparing them either.

However, I do not like where things are NOW going with America trying to draw attention away from Israel's violations by drawing in either Iran or Syria. They are playing with fire even if Syria / Iran is slightly invoved, if America provokes them too much what is it going to do if Syria / Iran attacks Israel? Open up another military front? Can it afford to?

Nuke them? I think not *_* (well GB doesn't think too much... So who knows)

America and Israel should not be moving their weapon sights towards Iran or Syria because that is more than they can chew. Israel could finish it's operations in Lebanon (although it'll never stop the rockets) and withdraw in a week or so. Any longer than that, or any further ground invasion and the whole region is probably past the brink.

Thoughts?

Other outcomes are more likely though. Iran and Syria are most likely helping Hezbollah like the US and Israel says, and so they have probably already foreseen America and Israel blaming them. Therefore, they will probably not react to the US's comments by increasing their involvement in the region unless they were already planning to do that.

An indication of the BBC's reporting, from Ceefax on Sunday morning:

EIGHT DIE IN HAIFA BOMBING

Two paragraphs down from that they briefly mention over 100 Lebanese have already died. Erm, excuse me, eight Israelis are more newsworthy than 100+ Lebanese? And they forgot to mention this one too loudly:
http://www.guardian...y/0,,1821726,00.html

Meanwhile, Israel are complaining that one missile lauched towards Haifa was manufactured in Iran. This coming from a nation that wouldn't have much military firepower if the US, UK and France weren't generally giving them arsenals on a regular basis, of course.

Lastly, it's big news that 40 dual-citizenship Brits have been evacuated from the region on British warships. Almost impressive, if it wasn't for the fact the Danish have evactuated 700 (or 15 times more) in the same space of time. Who issued the orders on that ship, exactly - the Daily Mail? So, Cyprus is now going to be a fun place to live with the Lebanese being dumped there - I'm sure the Greek part of the island (about 85% of it, genocide permitting) will greet them with the same hospitality they used on the Turkish Cypriots. Ah...

At 7/19/06 09:54 AM, D2KVirus wrote: An indication of the BBC's reporting, from Ceefax on Sunday morning:

This is a little unfair against the BBC. You say they didn't report that war-crime when the Israeli's bombed the convoy. They did. I used it about four times above to show Caheen and people how Israel targets civilians.

Today the BBC's frontpage story is:

http://news.bbc.co.u..dle_east/5193662.stm

"At least 49 civilians have been killed in Israeli air strikes in Lebanon.
At least 12 people died and about 30 were wounded in the southern village of Srifa, near Tyre, where residents said several homes were flattened"

Israel targets civilians, at least 17 killed in Convoy fleeing village.

The BBC reported that before the Guardian did and made it front-page and "World Frontpage" for about half the day.

I think the BBC is very fair considering. They don't suck up to Israel like most of the sources Caheen and so on quote, but they don't lie or mis-constrct the truth either about Israel such as some Arab sources do.

From the BBC I've learned that nearly 300 civilians have died so far in Lebanon as well as an unknown number of militants. In addition to those 300 among the dead are soldiers from the Lebanese army killed in their barracks when Israel bombed those not to mention those killed in other attacks. Israel says it wants the Lebanese army to take on Hezbollah but leaves it no morale, no airforce or airfields and no radar stations to do it with.

Israel is totally hypocritical and it is painfully obvious that they don't care about the mounting civilian death toll. The Rome Statute that Caheen is so fond of saying Israel doesn't break mentions "Disproportionate Civilian casualities to the military action". Two soldiers were kidnapped and rocket attacks had dropped before the current action. Now 300+ are dead, thousands are injured and an economy is in ruins.

Of course the Israeli's are breaking the law, of course they are being evil and disproportionate and their actions are again vile and dispicable.

How convienent that most of the Israeli's and ALL of the ones on this BBS have forgotton that during 20X6 deaths on both sides were lower than they'd ever been (Between Palestinians and Israelis) for a number of years and that in general suicide bombings and rocket attacks had stopped. for the most part (Source AI report, Source BBC news, Source Economist). Deaths were at their lowest for months.

Now in the space of five days, Israel has MURDERED more civilians than either it or the palestinians had murdered in the whole of 2006 together.

What more proof do you need that Israel has committed a war-crime, that they are over-reacting and that their actions are far worse than anything done to them this year.

Today the BBC's frontpage story is:

http://news.bbc.co.u..dle_east/5193662.stm

Twenty-eight Israelis have been killed - including 16 civilians killed by rocket attacks - since the Israeli offensive against Hezbollah militants began last Wednesday.

"We won't have a terrorist organisation deployed on our northern border and Hezbollah is the one that has destabilised the entire region," Israeli government spokeswoman Miri Eisin told the BBC.

This passage is interesting as it tries to evoke sentiments from christians because christian territories are so much "more important" :o

Israeli planes also struck Beirut, with a Christian district coming under fire for the first time, as well as more Hezbollah rocket attacks on the northern Israeli city of Haifa.

It is also worth noting that while it is bolded that civilians have died. Once again the article doesn't say israel targetted them. Just that they died.

Israel targets civilians, at least 17 killed in Convoy fleeing village.

The Israeli Army said the responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah, and they regretted civilian casualties while targeting areas used as a launching ground for missiles.

No where does the article say Israel targetted civilians. It just said civilians died. You are rewording what they say sarai to fit what you want them to say.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- We Americans like to think we're a pretty smart people, even when evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. And nowhere is that evidence more overwhelming than in the Middle East. History in the Middle East is everything, and we Americans seem to learn nothing from it.

President Harry Truman took about 20 minutes to recognize the state of Israel when it declared independence in 1948. Since then, more than 58 years of war, terrorism and blood-letting have led to the events of the past week.

Even now, as Katyusha rockets rain down on northern Israel and Israeli fighter jets blast Hezbollah targets in southern Lebanon, we simultaneously decry radical Islamist terrorism and Israel's lack of restraint in defending itself.

And the U.S. government, which wants no part of a cease-fire until Israel is given every opportunity to rescue its kidnapped soldiers and destroy as many Hezbollah and Hezbollah armaments as possible, urges caution in the interest of preserving a nascent and fragile democratic government in Lebanon. Could we be more conflicted?

While the United States provides about $2.5 billion in military and economic aid to Israel each year, U.S. aid to Lebanon amounts to no more than $40 million. This despite the fact that the per capita GDP of Israel is among the highest in the world at $24,600, nearly four times as high as Lebanon's GDP per capita of $6,200.

Lebanon's lack of wealth is matched by the Palestinians -- three out of every four Palestinians live below the poverty line. Yet the vast majority of our giving in the region flows to Israel. This kind of geopolitical inconsistency and shortsightedness has contributed to the Arab-Israeli conflict that the Western world seems content to allow to perpetuate endlessly.

After a week of escalating violence, around two dozen Israelis and roughly 200 Lebanese have died. That has been sufficient bloodshed for United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan and British Prime Minister Tony Blair to join in the call for an international security force, ignoring the fact that a U.N. force is already in Southern Lebanon, having failed to secure the border against Hezbollah's incursions and attacks and the murder and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

As our airwaves fill with images and sounds of exploding Hezbollah rockets and Israeli bombs, this seven-day conflict has completely displaced from our view another war in which 10 Americans and more than 300 Iraqis have died during the same week. And it is a conflict now of more than three years duration that has claimed almost 15,000 lives so far this year alone.

An estimated 50,000 Iraqis and more than 2,500 American troops have been killed since the insurgency began in March of 2003, which by some estimates is more than the number of dead on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict over the past 58 years of wars and intifadas.

Yet we have seen no rescue ships moving up the Euphrates for Iraqis who are dying in their streets, markets and mosques each day. French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has not leaped to Baghdad as he did Beirut. And there are no meetings of the Arab League, and no U.S. diplomacy with Egypt, Syria and Jordan directed at ending the Iraqi conflict.

In the Middle East, where is our sense of proportion? Where is our sense of perspective? Where is our sense of decency? And, finally, just how smart are we?

http://politics.nets...html&frame=true

At 7/19/06 11:16 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:
The Israeli Army said the responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah, and they regretted civilian casualties while targeting areas used as a launching ground for missiles.

No where does the article say Israel targetted civilians. It just said civilians died. You are rewording what they say sarai to fit what you want them to say.

Only if you believe the Israeli army. If you had quoted the full BBC text or the Guardian link they were given 2 hours to move, they left before that, they were killed on the roads outside their village. It's likely that Israeli soldiers even saw them leave (See Guardian article quoted above). As such I find it hard to imagine that somehow the very people told to leave their village are killed on open road.

I mean, open road for large missile firing sites? Hmmmm.... Sure the were. It's murder.

"According to witnesses and photographs from the scene of the worst incident, an Israeli missile incinerated a car and a small truck full of families leaving their Lebanese border village of Marwaheen near Tyre after the Israeli army used loudhailers to tell residents they had just hours to go. Pictures showed charred bodies of children strewn across the road."

"The EU, France, the Swiss(ed) and Russia have all condemned the Israeli air strikes as 'disproportionate' "

Good going Israel, serve up a few more children for the BBQ.

At 7/19/06 11:21 AM, EcKo_WR wrote: NEW YORK (CNN)

Great article and good find! I find the economic aid to Israel disgusting in amount compared to what they give to either Lebanon or the total lack to the Palestinians. Hell even when they give money to the Palestinians before Hamas came, now Israel has all but destroyed all the infrastructure built with American money, eg; Foreign ministry, powerplants, etc.

The US should dump Israel into's it's own mess. It appears they're rich enough to manage by themselves.

Relatives blamed the UN for the deaths, pelting peacekeepers with stones when they arrived with the bodies after the strike.

"If they had taken people in to begin with then they would never have died," said Mohammed Oqla, who was at the hospital.

From the guardian report Sarai. Apparently Israel did warn them to leave. If they were targetting them, that really makes sense.

At 7/19/06 11:27 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/19/06 11:21 AM, EcKo_WR wrote: NEW YORK (CNN)

Great article and good find! I find the economic aid to Israel disgusting in amount compared to what they give to either Lebanon or the total lack to the Palestinians. Hell even when they give money to the Palestinians before Hamas came, now Israel has all but destroyed all the infrastructure built with American money, eg; Foreign ministry, powerplants, etc.

The US should dump Israel into's it's own mess. It appears they're rich enough to manage by themselves.

This is why I'm planning to join a march in D.C. .The march will be at this place called Freedom Plaza.Marches are held there annually.It's to condemn Israel's behavior.I just got to find a mode of transportation.

At 7/19/06 11:39 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: Relatives blamed the UN for the deaths, pelting peacekeepers with stones when they arrived with the bodies after the strike.

"If they had taken people in to begin with then they would never have died," said Mohammed Oqla, who was at the hospital.

From the guardian report Sarai. Apparently Israel did warn them to leave. If they were targetting them, that really makes sense.

Oh look but the UN couldn't verify the Israeli threats. You forgot to copy that part. Then they left and got killed on the road. Congratulations for ignoring all that.

Oh and congratulations to Israel

Israel kills the most Civilians in one day so far

"At least 55 civilians have been killed in Israeli air strikes in Lebanon. The latest raids hit targets in the east and south of Lebanon, where at least 12 people died in one village."

---

Good going Israel, I love the pictures of blocks of flats demolished by bombs and missiles. Total destruction of civilian property, totally illegal.

You know what, there was a story just now about some Israeli soldiers getting killed in a fight against Hezbollah militants an hour ago. I've lost all feeling about casualities on the Israeli side, if the stories true, who cares, two Israeli soldiers die today, 55 civilians at least (+ militants die). The civilians are totally innocent, they live in Lebanon, a country not at war on Israel of it's own making. Israel murders them. The Israeli soldiers die in a battle, fair enough it's war hey.

At 7/19/06 11:56 AM, Turandot wrote: Oh look but the UN couldn't verify the Israeli threats. You forgot to copy that part. Then they left and got killed on the road. Congratulations for ignoring all that.

I didn't ignore it, I just choose, just like you to choose the part that supported my case. Either way the lebonese are blaiming the UN. They know they were given warning.

Good going Israel, I love the pictures of blocks of flats demolished by bombs and missiles. Total destruction of civilian property, totally illegal.

Not totally illigal. Its war. They are aloud to target anything they felt was a threat. During WWII do you think the allies left the Germans their power plants and homes when they bombed the country? The idea is laughable. And the precision of this attack is greater than anything of that era.

You know what, there was a story just now about some Israeli soldiers getting killed in a fight against Hezbollah militants an hour ago. I've lost all feeling about casualities on the Israeli side, if the stories true, who cares, two Israeli soldiers die today, 55 civilians at least (+ militants die). The civilians are totally innocent, they live in Lebanon, a country not at war on Israel of it's own making. Israel murders them. The Israeli soldiers die in a battle, fair enough it's war hey.

So you are saying that Israeli lives don't matter? Looks like you fell into the same trap as everyone else. You've convinced yourself that you are right and that the other side doesn't deserve to be alive because they are your enemy. And claiming that all 55 of the civilians killed today that you have never met, that you can't possibly know the intentions of or the exact circumstances under which they died are completly innocent is astound Sarai. But you know, keep making up facts. Its entertaining.

I know that I don't care about terrorists killed. If someone is about to blow up a suicide bomb, kill them.

But then I also think if a bomb is about to be dropped on a group of Civilians, I'd hope the pilot died.

I care about Israeli civilians, they are living through hell atm, although it's kinda their fault. Things were much quieter before this. I feel for the Lebanese civilians who aren't even related to the war Israel is meant to be fighting.

What I don't feel for are the terrorists on both sides who either target civilians, use civilians or ignore the plight of civilians. Let 1000 Hezbollah fighters die if they're the ones who have launched rockets at Israel that have ended up killing civilians. Let 1000 Israeli soldiers die if they're the ones who's fingers pulled the trigger that killed civilians.

What's wrong with that? Hmmm?

At 7/19/06 03:44 AM, Turandot wrote: However, I do not like where things are NOW going with America trying to draw attention away from Israel's violations by drawing in either Iran or Syria. They are playing with fire even if Syria / Iran is slightly invoved, if America provokes them too much what is it going to do if Syria / Iran attacks Israel? Open up another military front? Can it afford to?

Nuke them? I think not *_* (well GB doesn't think too much... So who knows)

America and Israel should not be moving their weapon sights towards Iran or Syria because that is more than they can chew. Israel could finish it's operations in Lebanon (although it'll never stop the rockets) and withdraw in a week or so. Any longer than that, or any further ground invasion and the whole region is probably past the brink.

Thoughts?

Neither the US or Israel will be able to stop the insurgency other than getting it "under control". The United States could easily start another war and be fine (assuming it's not with a first rate country), but I don't think that it could possibly have another occupation of a country, it would be too draning on the resources.

At 7/19/06 12:26 PM, Turandot wrote: I know that I don't care about terrorists killed. If someone is about to blow up a suicide bomb, kill them.

But then I also think if a bomb is about to be dropped on a group of Civilians, I'd hope the pilot died.

I care about Israeli civilians, they are living through hell atm, although it's kinda their fault. Things were much quieter before this. I feel for the Lebanese civilians who aren't even related to the war Israel is meant to be fighting.

What I don't feel for are the terrorists on both sides who either target civilians, use civilians or ignore the plight of civilians. Let 1000 Hezbollah fighters die if they're the ones who have launched rockets at Israel that have ended up killing civilians. Let 1000 Israeli soldiers die if they're the ones who's fingers pulled the trigger that killed civilians.

What's wrong with that? Hmmm?

Just wondering, what would your solution to the problem be? Inaction Israel, insurgency and terroism is a difficult battle, very gray area on tactics to remove such forces. I understand how you feel about the loss of innocent life, but people are not perfect and neither is technology, and war is ment to kill. And terrorist tend to put civilians around them so that they are in the crossfire, did you notice how quickly videos of dead civilians always appear online after an Israeli airstrike?

At 7/19/06 12:30 PM, Shifty55 wrote:

:And terrorist tend to put civilians around them so that they are in the crossfire, did you notice how quickly videos of dead civilians always appear online after an Israeli airstrike?

If you KNOW there are civilians around, why don't you send in the special forces to get them. Instead of bombing them all. Why becuase it might risk your lives? You invade them basically, yet your life is worth more than the civilians? So to save your guys you just decide to kill them all from 10000 feet up. What happened to all that"coutner-terrorism" training? Why even have a special forces or swat team if they do not train in this type of operation.Israel is basically a Military Industry Complex base in the middlleast.

Children

Defence of Children International (DCI) gives the most recent statistic: As of last month (June 2006) there were 388 Palestinian children in Israeli detention. Many hundreds more prisoners are now adults, but were originally detained as children. The PNA Ministry says that over 3000 children have been through Israeli jails since September 2000, the majority held only for allegedly throwing stones. According to Israeli law, children should be 16 before being charged and sentenced, but in practice those are young as 12 are put on trial.

Israel’s policy towards juveniles not only violates its own law, but international law which stipulates that a person does not become an adult until reaching 18. Israel does not only limit itself to teenagers. In the past weeks (May 2006) DCI has reported a West Bank child as young as five years old snatched from his father’s arms and held in detention for six and half hours – allegedly for throwing stones.

____________________________________

85% of Palestinians report systematic abuse. ____________________________________

Systematic Torture and Abuse

Both Palestinian and international human rights organizations have documented Israel’s routine use of torture; a form of humiliation and wearing down the detainee. About 85% of Palestinians report systematic abuse including handcuffing in contorted positions, severe beating, solitary confinement and abhorrent practices such as placing of faeces covered sacks over the head of the prisoner.

Standards in Israeli prisons do not meet with the most basic human rights law, which calls for medical attention for prisoners. Take the case of Suleiman Darigeh, a 53 year old from Taybeh in the West Bank. Darigeh reported chest pains to the authorities in Hasharon Prison on April 25th and asked to see the prison doctor. Instead of a proper medical examination, the prison doctor merely gave him a pain killer and returned him to his cell. He died in the night, the thirteenth prisoner to die in custody since the start of the second Intifada.

While the vast majority of prisoners are men, over 100 women are detained by Israel, and since September 2000 there have been at least two births in Israeli custody. While men have also reported forms of sexual torture in jail, women prisoners are particularly vulnerable to this as a form of humiliation by their captors. Women are forced to strip naked in front of guards, many of whom are male, and subjected to brutal body searches. Many women prisoners have detailed sexual assault by Israeli military and prison staff. On some occasions women are detained as a way of threatening or putting pressure on a male member of the family.

Long-Term Effects on Palestinian Society

The long-term impact of such a massive scale of detentions cannot be underestimated. The fact that the PNA has a ministry especially for detainees and ex-prisoners demonstrates the cause for concern. Staff from the Gaza Community Mental Health Project, for example, report overwhelming numbers of people who are suffering from long-term damage of torture and incarceration. How can NGOs and a government that are failing to cope with the immediate trauma of military attack, unemployment and poverty even begin to deal with the psychological effects on prisoners and their families during and after time in captivity?

Unlike members of the Israeli army, the vast majority of Palestinian prisoners held had not even resorted to engaging in violence to solve the conflict.

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Source:www.islamonline.net/..lish/Muslim_A
ffairs/ sia/PoliticsEconomy/2006/07/01.shtml

At 7/19/06 12:30 PM, Shifty55 wrote:

At 7/19/06 12:26 PM, Turandot wrote:

Just wondering, what would your solution to the problem be? Inaction Israel, insurgency and terroism is a difficult battle, very gray area on tactics to remove such forces. I understand how you feel about the loss of innocent life, but people are not perfect and neither is technology, and war is ment to kill. And terrorist tend to put civilians around them so that they are in the crossfire, did you notice how quickly videos of dead civilians always appear online after an Israeli airstrike?

All I know is that deaths on both sides were very much reduced in 2006 (AI report) compared to X5 and before. Something was working.

Palestinian people were concentrating on their newly democratically elected Government and a generally adhered too cease-fire was in place. Israel had withdrawn from some areas and a number of positive legal developments from Israel's own courts had meant that certain routes of the peace-wall had been changed.

Because of this, although some people on both sides were still suffering things were getting better. The more you allow people to concentrate on their lives, rather than what they don't have, the less they'll shoot at each other.

I think Israel should have gone after their soldier captured in Gaza, they seem to have managed to keep most civilian casualties low. Since however they have not retrieved him they should now consider negotiating. The cost is too high.

Regarding the soldiers in Lebanon, I think it's way too much what Israel has done. I don't need to go on again about it, but I think it's murder. Gumonshoe and so one will keep saying "Oh these 55, you don't know what the circumstances were", but neither does he. So far 300+ civilians have died in Lebanon, and they weren't expecting it were they. When is enough to get people like GoS to say 'stop, we can get our soldiers back some other way'.

Hezbollah can't be allowed free reign to capture soldiers at will, but they couldn't have done it unless the soldiers were poorly protected. In any case getting them back with violence has cost too much, it's time to negotiate and pull back. Otherwise Israel will just end up destroying all that's there in Lebanon.

Hezbollah must be made to see by economic incentives that violence can bring only death to themselves. This has not been shown to them in this campaign, only civilians have died.

Israel along with the world should offer a serious package of economic aid to Lebanon to fund schools, roads and replacing infrastructure destroyed by Israel. By doing this is can cut Hezbollah's strangle-hold on public welfare projects.

As a stick to hold over them, Israel must warn them that any further serious attacks will result in further military action. The Lebanese Government should have a part to play in this, it's forces should with the HELP and SUPPORT of Israel (IE not bombing them) control Hezbollah.

Hezbollah should be allowed to disarm without fear of targeted killings like in Palestine.

These are very rough ideas, no one here cares I bet, so I won't write them out fully.

But to sum up; military strikes must be against Hezbollah, they are not precise enough at the moment.

Economic incentives, rebuilding and funds for Lebanese Welfare should be provided to show Lebanese that they don't need Hezbollah. Military action tends to promote cohesiveness, economic help can force a divide between the people and Hezbollah.

At 7/19/06 11:39 AM, EcKo_WR wrote: This is why I'm planning to join a march in D.C. .The march will be at this place called Freedom Plaza.Marches are held there annually.It's to condemn Israel's behavior.I just got to find a mode of transportation.

Dont bother, the only people there are racists and idiots. I went to one in San Francisco just to take it in one time, it was much like this. And the one you are going to go to will probably be just like this.

But considering your sentiments, you will eat it up. I get the impression you will be in the crowd with a Keffiyeh on and supporting suicide bombers and Hezbollah killing civilians.

At 7/19/06 11:21 AM, EcKo_WR wrote: In the Middle East, where is our sense of proportion? Where is our sense of perspective? Where is our sense of decency? And, finally, just how smart are we?

What a shitty article. Not only would conferences of diplomats to resolve the Iraqi problem get nowhere, the author does nothing but bitch. Great, I can bitch and be a giant casualty whore, but where does that get me?

Back to square one. He supports no one, villifies all sides, and generally just crabs about how fucked up the situation is.

Like thats new news. Pfft. What a shitty editorial.

Contrary to your belief sarai I don't like seeing inocents die. In fact, the only thing I've done on the last two pages say that your calling Israel murderers was a little unjust and unbalanced. I agree with your last post in which you finally answered my question. I don't know that it would work and I don't think that Israel will pull out yet. I also don't think "the world" is going to help lebanon, they'll square it all on Israel.

Additionally, the Israeli soldiers aren't terrorists, they are following orders which they have to follow. Everyone is drafted in Israel into government sevice at the age of 18. The entirety of israel doesn't want kill civilians, and just saying that they do is stupid.

The only real issue is that Arab countries have never "worked with" Israel and I don't think you could convince Lebanon to allow Israeli soldiers in to work with Lebanese soldiers given what has just happened in the last week.

I wish your idea would work, but I don't think it can or will in present circumstances.

At 7/19/06 01:44 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

But considering your sentiments, you will eat it up. I get the impression you will be in the crowd with a Keffiyeh on and supporting suicide bombers and Hezbollah killing civilians.

Fab, be nice. However, I'm quite happy that you believe that killing civillians is wrong. Even when Hezbollah does it.
Not meant as an insult. I do agree that Israel acidentally killing civillians is bad, but at least it can be critiqued from within. If someone in Hezbollah said that killing civillians was wrong, well, you know. And, oh, a katuysha hit a hospital in Israel.

At 7/19/06 01:44 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 7/19/06 11:39 AM, EcKo_WR wrote:

Dont bother, the only people there are racists and idiots. I went to one in San Francisco just to take it in one time, it was much like this. And the one you are going to go to will probably be just like this.

Maybe where you were but I know the people who organize the marches every year or so and they wouldn't be so stupid as those people in the pictures.But hell I hope it turns out the way you portrayed it sounds like a ripping good time. :)

But considering your sentiments, you will eat it up. I get the impression you will be in the crowd with a Keffiyeh on and supporting suicide bombers and Hezbollah killing civilians.

So now your calling me a terrorist?Ok,but I still consider Israel's latest series of military incurssions disproportianate and violent.

At 7/19/06 11:21 AM, EcKo_WR wrote: In the Middle East, where is our sense of proportion? Where is our sense of perspective? Where is our sense of decency? And, finally, just how smart are we?

What a shitty article. Not only would conferences of diplomats to resolve the Iraqi problem get nowhere, the author does nothing but bitch. Great, I can bitch and be a giant casualty whore, but where does that get me?

Back to square one. He supports no one, villifies all sides, and generally just crabs about how fucked up the situation is.

Like thats new news. Pfft. What a shitty editorial.

He tells the truth.He is explaining the problems we are facing.you are quite the critisciser.I guess you just want the Palestinians and Israelis to wallow in blood n' shit.